Question for the men: This is serious, not bait: Wondering what you're hearing.

[lindysalsagal]

As a middle aged woman, I'll never get a straight answer, so, I've really been wondering lately: With all the accusations of sexual mis-behavior.

What are men saying when there are no women around? I wouldn't blame them for being a little freaked out right now , the way the ground is moving underneath their feet.

Wondering if they question some or all of it, or if they really already knew men did this stuff.

Not looking to blame anyone on here, so, please, I don't want this thread to be negative. Just curious. Thanks.

[guillaumeb]

1. I have seen numerous instances of sexually harassing behavior.

When it happened at work, I suggested using the grievance/arbitration procedure, as well as the EEOC process. Neither process offers a quick or easy resolution because both generally depend on proving intent.

[brush]

2. Most men, and I do mean most, don't sexually harrass of abuse women. The ones who do or have...

are sweating bullets right now as this #me_too movement gains steam.

I want the abusers outed and fired.

My concern is that schemers can and will target men who are political or workplace rivals or enemies. — a la, IMO, Al Franken.

[ansible]

3. Men in general are just horny perverts

I won't deny it, but I know how to keep it under control. It's the ones that claim they aren't that you should be careful with.

[lindysalsagal]

5. Wow! I appreciate your candor. Geez.

[ProfessorGAC]

50. Don't Accept That Post As Truth!

That poster is WAY OUT OF LINE!
Men are not all just rabid, sex driven dogs! And saying that doesn't make me more suspect, as that poster suggests. What is does suggest is that I, along with the VAST majority of men, are sufficiently evolved!

[sadiegirl]

10. Since you posted this, I feel free to post a post from a FB friend with his permission.

It is as honest as your post but more blunt.

"MEN ARE DOGS We have been dogs since the dawn of time. Now it seems like all that shit is catching up with us. Men have used their position in the workplace and every other facet of life to abuse and misuse women. They call us DOGS for a reason. Always sniffing at something. I stopped my doggishness some years ago, I recommend all men give it a try. Your lady will be happy."

He is happily married now for 35 years but knows what he was like until he met the love of his life.

[lindysalsagal]

14. Amazing. I honestly would not have expected to hear anything like that. Thanks.

[CreekDog]

43. your post is nonsense

if it was just about being horny, why would guys who make enough money to pay for sex simply get it consensually from lots of willing sources rather than from non-consensual folks who can cost them their multimillion dollar jobs?

IT'S NOT ABOUT SEX. these guys have lots of legal and consensual ways to get sex -these incidents ARE NOT THOSE WAYS.

It's about power.

[ProfessorGAC]

51. Ridiculous!

A small and insulting point of view!

[DrDan]

56. ridiculous . . . a bit of projection, per chance?

[YOHABLO]

4. In the ''locker room" women are just conquests.

[lindysalsagal]

6. Can I ask about that?

On average, would you attribute that to it being the whole truth, or just posturing? Wishfull thinking?

[bathroommonkey76]

47. It's the whole truth

From middle school to adulthood I have seen guys brag about having sex with women. The ones who don't brag have their own games they play - I'm speaking of the "Don-Juan types" - they don't kiss & tell about their conquests, but they view women in the same light as the alpha-male types who boast about tapping that hot piece. lol

All guys are perverts - Some don't go to the extremes and pull it out like Louis CK- in their minds though all they can think about is that woman's chest, or ass. It's kinda sad, but the truth.

Don't forget there are A LOT of women who love sex, too. Create a fake dating profile and you'll see the freaks I'm talking about. The Internet has turned many people into sex-crazed maniacs.

[lindysalsagal]

53. I do wonder about the "shopping" that the internet allows and if that changes the way people act.

I don't have any evidence, but, with what I know about internet dating, I'd have to agree with you.

Wow. I love this thread. Thank you for your honesty.

[Mr. Ected]

7. The men I know find the behavior of these deviates disgusting and unimaginable

And believe it or not, many of these men are "conservatives".

Not a defense of their politics, but just a note that many if not most men find this behavior reprehensible and can't fathom acting in that manner.

[uponit7771]

9. +1, not "locker room" talk

[uponit7771]

8. That MOST of the men being fired are in the workplace and they have no life after work

... and that's the only place they can get someone to give them any attention.

In the case of Red Don its random women, just anyone he's around gets assaulted.

Guys my age are glad there's a social calibration, got kids and no one wants to put up with this crap

[ornotna]

11. Nothing

Most people(men) that I encounter on a regular basis don't keep up with current events. They are quite happy in their little bubble world. If you bring it up you get blank stares or the look that there is a horn growing out of your forehead.

[Corvo Bianco]

31. Yup.

[Willie Pep]

36. I think most people are like that

A lot of people don't care about current events. The people I work with don't seem to care at all. Maybe they don't want to talk about it since it is a touchy subject. I have a few Republican relatives who were happy about the accusations against Al Franken and some liberal celebrities but they had nothing to say about Moore and brushed off the accusations against him as they did with those against Trump.

[mcar]

12. My husband is baffled

"How did they think they'd get away with it?" he says.

[Skittles]

22. because they have always gotten away with it?

[mcar]

65. That's what I said

I'm happy to say he just doesn't get it. I'm guessing most men are baffled.

[GulfCoast66]

13. What am I hearing?

Well, I work for a large, somewhat progressive company in central Florida. Politics has always been considered out of bounds for management types like me to talk. And abusive or even demeaning language about people based on sex, gender, race, age, etc has been out of bounds for 20 years.

As for my friends...and some of them are republicans. We are all married. I assume they are faithful to their spouses, but who knows. If they ever started taking in a demeaning way about women or any other group...well, they would not be friends. Now, if you consider phases like 'I have to go, the boss is calling', or 'happy wife, happy life', as demeaning, well then maybe so.

Despite what you have read above, not all men are dogs. I guess all men like sex, but many of us are able to engage in the practice of sex with willing partners and without creating victims.

Any of the women of DU who think that all men engage in 'locker-room' talk should think again. Asshole men do. Decent men do not. Even in my republican days I would never stoop to the level of demeaning women.

[Adrahil]

15. Honestly?

The man I interact with are saying stuff like, "what the fuck is wrong with these guy?"
I think most men have a moment or two they are not proud of. I do. But nothing like this BS.

[Iris]

27. Ive really appreciated comments from men who admit to doing something stupid in the past

Last edited Wed Nov 29, 2017, 11:59 PM - Edit history (1)

and appear to have learned something from it.

[Blue_true]

16. Generally the men that are hostile to basic women's rights and economic rights

are freaked out. Men that I see support women's issues consistently are not concerned.

[lindysalsagal]

17. Gentlemen, can I say, I love this thread! This is awesome!

[Iris]

29. Agreed!!

[Lurks Often]

18. Partly genetic with a large helping of power corrupting

The most basic function of any living thing is to re-produce, so most men, even married ones, will at least look when an attractive woman comes into view. A much smaller percentage of those men will make a pass and a very small portion of men have enough power and influence to do what Lauer and Weinstein, among others, have done and get away with for years if not decades.

I'm waiting for the allegations against powerful women to start trickling out, the only question is how long before it happens.

[lindysalsagal]

19. I don't know about that: Because it's not manly to be a victim of a woman.

More likely, we'll be called names (not discounting that there are times those names are deserved) but it's got to be really rare when a woman uses power for sexual or power satisfaction. I would expect to see female misconduct more along the lines of demotions, re-assignments and firings, rather than groping and demanding sex.

But I really don't know, and I'd be willing to admit I was naive if it comes to pass.

[k2qb3]

37. Men and women have different biological imperatives.

Sex crimes committed by women mostly involve paternity fraud or entrapment.

[Lurks Often]

61. I'll agree that it"s generally considered "not manly to be a victim of a woman"

which is why there have been so few allegations against powerful women,

However that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and I do expect allegations to start coming out, probably within a year.

[PJMcK]

63. "Disclosure" by Michael Crichton

Disclosure is a novel by Michael Crichton, published in 1994. The novel is set in a fictional high tech company, just before the beginning of the dot-com economic boom. The plot concerns protagonist Tom Sanders, and his battle against unfounded allegations of sexual harassment.

It's an excellent novel from the mid-1990s that explores sexual harassment in a tech corporation. What makes the book compelling is that the typical harassment situation is reversed and it's a powerful woman who goes after the man. The book is extremely well-written but it was turned into a mediocre movie with Michael Douglas and Demi Moore.

Here's the Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_(novel)

[Tavarious Jackson]

20. It's not a small amount of men.

If most women are being sexually assaulted or harassed.. that means a whole lot of men are doing it. It's not just powerful men.. it's friends of friends, it's customers at Restaurants and bars, its's men women see at the neighborhood bbq I've seen my friends beg and beg a woman until she either runs out or submits to make him shut up.. Most men do not consider that rape but it is.. it's rape. Men feel entitled to sex and if they go a good while without some men even get very angry. As a man I have seen it and kept quiet. I'm married now and have been for many years. I was shy. I had a secret crush on my wife for 4 months and finally I asked her for coffee. I wanted to kiss her but I was scared to death. Thankfully she kissed me first.

[Kaleva]

21. The subject doesn't come up.

[Dan]

30. This is what I anticipated - what you have articulated.

When it comes to the powerful taking advantage of the weak - hang them or do what has to be done to make the situation right, but let there be some due process.

One - how is it possible that only men have been the sexual predators, are you telling me that there has never been a woman that has taken advantage of a man and in some cases another woman?

Two - some interpersonal activities took place years ago - what was the cultural norm at that time?

Three - your comment about misunderstanding or incorrect interpretations of signals sent and/or received, should a person be condemned due to misunderstanding.

Someone commented men are just sexual, guess what, so are some women. Now I find it interesting that females remember everything from years ago (and as relationships change, so do our recollections of events) but have you heard from men. Yes, men have been petted on the butt, kissed without permission - but you know the different - we ignore it, say no, and get on with our lives. But I concede that we are not living under some physical threat by women for the most part.

I honestly feel that there is going to be some blowback - and it is going to be ugly, because we are not discussing these issues and how to resolve them, we are destroying people.

Professionally, I would not mentor nor train a woman. Sadly, if she fails to perform (and it happens for both men and women) - she can attribute her failure to how she might choose to perceive her shortcomings, and it can become a male/female issue. And all of us know, this happens.

I don’t disagree that there are men that take advantage of their positions, power and just their ability to intimidate - and that should be addressed. But look in the mirror, there are some females that use their sexuality to promote, obtain and acquire - and we all have seen that. And when it blows up - as happens - are we dealing with a victim or a willing partner in the game of sex?

Ugly situation...

[flamingdem]

38. .

fyi this post was alerted on, not sure why since the post was meant to get honest answers.

[Dan]

40. Thanks for sharing

.... not sure what happens next... but interesting.

[flamingdem]

41. .

The post above you was removed but your post survived

[Dan]

42. Post #23

that I initially responded too - was heartfelt and meaningful. The person that posted - it was his/her first post and I felt that the person made some real points. Some may not have liked what was expressed - but the person expressed some real realities and potentials about how people might feel and/or react. Nothing violent, but truthful.

I was sorry to see the post deleted... and maybe that is part of the problem, we really can't talk - and until we do, we can't deal with the problem.

Someone said that after Trump is out of office - to address the issues that he has raised in this nation, we will need a Truth and Reconciliation period, sort of like South Africa had to do after the bad times. Maybe in some ways to address the male/female issues, we need to start talking. So, I thought this was an interesting thread....

thanks for sharing...

D

[mythology]

24. Some whine, but those tend to whine about

Gays, and minorities.

I don't worry about it at all. I am lucky on several levels. One the two most positive influences in my life are my mom and my maternal grandmother. The most negative was my dad who is a sexual predator (as in he's a rapist) and one of the last times he and i talked he perverted on my 14 year old cousin. I would crawl over broken glass to not be him.

I think there are a lot of guys who have some real soul searching to do. A lot crossed lines and we need to get a better understanding of what it means to be a man. There is a toxic masculinity that says you need to bang as many women as you can, that being alpha is manly. The sexual harassment and assaults are a symptom of that, as is beating up "nerds" and so on.

[lindysalsagal]

55. "Toxic masculinity." Wow. So honest. Real masculinity is protective supportive and

nurturing. I think it takes a real man to care and share. Awesome.

[customerserviceguy]

25. I've spoken about this with a number of men

and we're all glad that we're not famous and/or rich. It occurs to us that every well-off man is one accusation away from losing everything.

[VOX]

26. None of my close male friends ever engaged in this kind of behavior.

We were taught to be gentlemen, and keep our hands (and words) to ourselves. Of course there was some college-age, drink-and-drug silliness, but even then, no one assaulted anyone, and everything was fairly reciprocal. (It was the ‘60s.)

I have difficulty fathoming a mind that would treat women so horribly. Stalking and grabbing, cajoling and/or threatening. It’s foreign to me, because it causes pain, and I do not enjoy inflicting pain on others. Whenever I was attracted to a woman, I’d share my beliefs, my sense of humor, my likes and dislikes, etc., to hopefully gain her interest; but if things didn’t click, I’d still be respectful and pleasant.

I’m still friends with most of my old girlfriends and my first wife. My second (and final) wife gives me a 100% rating on relating to women and understanding women’s issues.

This day has been coming for a long time. I did know of some college profs who hit on their female students, which made me feel sick and troubled. I know women have taken untold amounts of shit from lousy men. I stand with women.

The ONE thing about all the revelations in the news that I’m unsure about is the timing of the revelations. While I do not doubt their veracity, they do seem to hit the news when the misdeeds of #45 are reaching a crescendo. Possibly a coincidence. But that’s the only odd thought I have.

[rwheeler31]

28. Men know and they will also start to come forward.

[Doodley]

32. If it is true that polls show Roy Moore will win and 40% still support Trump, then obviously

a large percentage of the population don't have a problem with the abuse of women.

[Beartracks]

34. Or simply don't believe the stories are true. n/t

[marlakay]

33. My husband thinks women will now have the

Courage to go up to men who have done things to them and tell them to give them job they wanted or money or they will tell on them to the public.

He thinks it needed to come out but is worried its getting out of control.

[Freelancer]

35. Some wonder why the men never look like George Clooney

It seems like an attractiveness differential is at play here. And before you have a knee-jerk reaction to the thought, please think about it. Why does the perpetrator never look like Idris Elba, or Ryan Gosling?

Is this behavior 100% disgusting 100% of the time, for 100% of the male population, or not? It just seems odd.

[flamingdem]

39. Another HUGE issue is power tripping at work related to gender

I went through this as a manager, another manager and a subordinate joined forces to attempt to undermine me. I was not well prepared for this and it was brutal. I imagine that men play these games with each other but I learned fast and got one fired since he was essentially out of control, hated having a woman be his boss and said things in meetings like "she must be on her period" - and the other males laughed by the way. I'd say this kind of behavior is hurting many more women than overtly sexual harrassment.

[Binkie The Clown]

44. I my entire working life I only ever met a few men like that.

Most other men I worked with thought they were creeps.

I'm not freaked out because I have nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of. I may be wrong, but I think most of the men I know would feel the same.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

45. Varying degrees of shock or skepticism about certain accusations

and a discomfort with trial by media based on vague and sometimes anonymous allegations.

[0rganism]

46. really doesn't come up much, from what i see

maybe it's just a result of the crowd i'm with (EE professionals mostly, so this is primarily applicable to my male co-workers and myself) but it's rare for a man to raise any issue regarding sex even in the absence of women. on the job we mostly focus on work (with a light sprinkling of sports), while off the job we mostly focus on food, recreation, and sleep. #metoo and related subjects would probably be seen as overtly political therefore rude to bring up, and not contributing to any of the aforementioned activities hence an inefficient use of time very likely to be superseded by another topic.

[nadine_mn]

48. I had a long talk with my husband

Edit: I know you asked for men's experience but my husband is a lurker and I wanted to share the point of view from someone who truly didn't realize how common sexual harassment is for women as far as it is something we are always aware of while he can go weeks without it ever entering his mind.


Who is truly a nice guy and kinda on the naíve side of sex (we are in our 40's and I was his first real relationship), he never "hung out with the guys" ... in fact in college while all his peers were partying etc, he adopted a dog from the local shelter and spent his free time nursing her back to health.

I say this because I cannot stress enough how isolated he is from guy talk or "locker room" talk and how limited his pre-marital interactions were. He is just baffled by how many women are coming forward (he believes them...just disgusted by the sheer numbers of jerks).

Back to our long conversation...he was asking about why women were so afraid of instances like Louis CK, of men masturbating in front of them. I gave him a long explanation of how dicks have basically been used as weapons against women for centuries. I explained how all the women in my first year of college got the "how not to get raped" talk and I'm pretty sure none of the men got the "don't rape" talk. I explained to how most women spend their day avoiding or looking for possible threats to their safety: from catcalls, to gropings, making sure your drink is never left unattended, parking in well lit areas, being escorted to you car or home if it's late, keeping your keys in your hand, don't wear headphones out jogging so you can hear if someone is coming up behind you...etc etc. I kinda felt bad for my husband because once it really sunk in, it looked like he was going to be sick.

Tonight I jokingly teased him that technically his behavior and how we met could have been considered sexual harassment (I was working as a cashier at a grocery store while in law school, he was my assistant manager..part time it was his second job). He would follow me around on my break trying to flirt (it was awkward and adorable). I said "come on...you asked me to help straighten the meat department you perv!"

We've been together 20 yrs...tonight he actually got the double entendre that I always assumed he meant ...and was mortified. He just was looking for an excuse to get me alone (we were a big gossip item lol) to talk. He never, ever did anything that crossed the line.

So he is truly sickened and outraged. He knew creeps existed (he used to work at a place where all the guys would go the strip club for lunch...he would occasionally join them because they had an all you can eat lunch buffet. But after a few times the novelty of it wore off - or the wings sucked- because he just quit going), but I think the sheer prevalence of it and how it creates a toxic environment for women in every aspect of life...I think that is just now really hitting him.

[DiverDave]

49. Haven't heard a thing

60 yr old truck driver here. Haven't really had time lately as I have been running a lot of miles.
Did sort of have a weird moment at a truck stop in Minnesota on t-day.
They had prime rib on a rotisserie and the guy cooking joked that the hostess needed to be hit.
I told him that wasn't funny.
He just said he wouldn't do that.
I gave him the stink eye and left.

[GaryCnf]

52. Pardon my cynicism

But I suspect the OP no more wants an honest discussion about what men think about a state of affairs, at least here, where the accusations against All Franken are uniformly considered serious and the admissions of Bill Clinton are almost uniformly excused as describing consensual conduct than an OP yesterday wanted an honest discussion about when incidents of racial discrimination are responded to in the same manner as incidents of sexual harassment.

[lindysalsagal]

57. Ok. That's fair. I have not weighed in on Al. But I did get honest answers and that's what I was hop

hoping for.

In one of my replies I admitted that women can be lousy bosses: I had a few in my time.

I also agree that this whole thing may go the way of the french revolution and get way beyond what's called for. I certainly understand that could happen and hope it doesn't.

[DrDan]

60. I worked for 2 major corporations for over 30 years. My BEST bosses were women.

[GaryCnf]

62. Appreciated

[GreenEyedLefty]

54. Not a man but my BFF from 5th grade on is a man and I was the only girl out of 3 siblings

And I have a husband of 19 years... so I feel like I know men. Obviously not all men, but average male behavior.

-I don't think what we are hearing about is indicative of all men, not by a long shot
-Using power, seniority, position etc. to get away with sexual harassment is not normal male behavior, at all
-I do think there are double standards applied to women vs. men in the workplace that are culturally ingrained (example, women are often commented on or to about their appearance, women are touched more often (in ways that are viewed as appropriate), etc.) and once it's brought to their attention men realize and change.

And sadly I am out of time. But these are a few of my thoughts.

[Motownman78]

58. I work in a company that is 98% women

so I don't get any male-only conversations. What I do get is women making remarks about the new electricians hot ass.

Sorry, if you see a cute guy, you are going to check him out as much as a guy checks out a hot girl, unless you are not of the heterosexual persuasion of course.

[DrDan]

59. I have yet to have a conversation where the victims were blamed . . . or even shared the blame

I have yet to have a conversation where others did not see this as a major issue.

Not all men are like this. Not all men commit these acts. So why should all men be "freaked out right now" or feel the earth shaking? Those guilty . . . perhaps so.

Yes - we men are aware . . . at least speaking for myself.

Sorry.

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

66. Not male myself but grew up in 50s when all manner of abuse and harrassment was very much

out in the open. At least in the milieu where I grew up - no not every man/boy were "dogs" as someone above labelled them, but the ones that were were given pretty much free reign and it was assumed that women/girls that got raped, assaulted, harrassed were responsible for it somehow. High school boys freely and quite openly harrassed girls, made crude jokes and even "got physical" but it was a cultural norm and so not challenged by anyone.

It may have made the adults around me uncomfortable (eg a family "friend" that regularly humiliated his wife with crude sexual remarks) or sad (neighbor who regularly beat his wife and you could hear her screaming) but they never ever did or said anything to stop it. I remember it just totally baffled me, like why wouldnt they do something??? They all would just look embarassed and then try to act like nothing happened. To be fair, there werent any laws on the books or mechanism for calling police to stop domestic abuse if it was occurring. There really wasnt a concept of "harrassment," it was just seen as within the range of normal behavior although of course some men were "nice" family men who didnt do that while others did.

I say this just to give yall a context. The recent flood of allegations confirms what Ive suspected for a while - that all this stuff still goes on and is still pretty widespread , but has just been driven underground in the last 30-40 years. Sorta like there are still racists, but they have just learn to better conceal it.

[DrDan]

67. I recognize the culture you described having grown up late-50's - early 60s. Yep - and a lot went

on in the public eye that would not be called out.

I really am not sure how widespread the problems are. I am sure they are quite prevalent in spots - like the movie industry, for example (at least we hear more about it there.) But I spent several decades in large corporations. There were rumors about some taking advantage of their positions. But I don't remember actually seeing anything blatantly related. Sure there was the occasional dirty joke. And rumors of supervisor/subordinate indiscretions. I am sure it has permeated all aspects of society. I think I have just been able to avoid it.

[alarimer]

64. They should be freaked out.

They should examine their own past behavior and apologize to anyone they may have harmed, even if it was inadvertent. And going forward, they need to police each other, even in conversation.

There are a lot of seemingly innocent behaviors that can feel threatening, like jokes or innuendo. Or, in my case, the husband of a coworker, constantly asking me for hugs. NOT OKAY. NOT EVER.

One thing you can do is call them out EVERY SINGLE TIME.

The fact is, plenty of people knew about Lauer. It's just that it was too much trouble to deal with. And that's normally the way it goes.

[lindysalsagal]

68. Lauer was bringing in the morning viewers, and so they didn't want to lose him or piss him off. $$$

They knew.

[Drahthaardogs]

69. Some of it is just baffling.

Charlie Rose walking around in his underwear thinks it's a turn on? Matt Lauer pulling down his pants? Did they think that was going to get them laid.

Some of it seems excessive.

Been to too many parties when I was younger where someone tried to kiss someone. A turned head or a brush off was a decline. A kiss back meant it was on. Men and women did it. I believe we even had a song called "Bust a move" or "putting the moves on him/ her," I don't really think that was sexual harassment unless you held power over the person.