Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 02:44 PM Nov 2017

John Stewart Service and why I don't buy any of the Franken allegations

First of all lets admit the obvious: Sexual assault is a grossly under reported crime in the US. It is, IMO, the greatest and darkest 'secret' that America covers up. I would also submit that the greatest number of unreported assaults happen in what is generally referred to as "date rape" where a couple are in a private and intimate environment and the male goes beyond what the female consents to. Three out of the four women that I had serious relations with in High School and College were victims of this kind of assault and I would not be surprised if 1 out of 3 women faced this kind of assault.

There are also a lot of improper activities (mostly by males) at the work place. When I became an executive in the only US company I worked for I took over for an executive that was being cashiered out because of 11 allegations of improper sexual contact, which was ironic because one of the services this company provided was consulting on how to manage awareness campaigns and reduce risk to companies.

My first task was to evaluate the claims. Two were confirmed rather easily and another two were strongly likely and the executive admitted to these four. There were four more that could have been possible but seemed unlikely and three more that could not have been possible because the dates that the accusers were certain of the executive wasn't in California but at our headquarters in Chicago.

The fact is that some women will make false claims in hopes of filing a claim. So even though we know that allegations are underreported it does not mean that all allegations that are reported are true.

It also doesn't mean that where there is smoke there is fire.

Take John Stewart Service for example.

Service grew up in China the son of missionaries for the YMCA. He joined the foreign service and was sent to the Dixie Mission which was the US military headquarters in China during WWII. He was sent by General Stillwell to make contact with the Mao Zedong and the leadership. Service correctly predicted that the corruption of the Nationalist regime had undermined their support and that the Communists were building a strong organization from the base up and that they would eventually gain power. The reactionary right targeted him and the other "China Hands" (other Americans that had grown up in China and served in the State Department).

In 1945 Service returned home for an extended visit and, as is the custom of the State Department, he was made available to journalists who wanted to get information on a "background basis". One of the people he met with was Phillip Jaffe a reporter for the Amerasia Journal that focused on American Asian interests. Service gave Jaffe copies of 8 articles he had written on general conditions in China, a practice that is common for State Department officers. No classified information was provided and Service was unaware that Jaffe was a Communist.

Service was eventually targeted and persecuted for years. The FBI documented every spec of his life and took it to a grand jury and in what may be the only time in US history a federal grand jury not only didn't indict Service but not a single grand juror voted for indictment.

The Republicans went after him and Senator McCarthy targeted him. He was hounded and investigated a dozen times by both the State Department and Congress and cleared every time. He was eventually fired on the premise "where there was smoke there must be fire", simply the number of investigations must mean something. Eventually the Supreme Court cleared him. Yet after he died an unscrupulous Wall Street Journal writer invented 2 phone interviews where Service 'confessed' to his misdeeds. During his life he was never abel to see the evidence against him and after his death the reactionary right still manufactured lies against him.

Losing Service and the rest of the China hands had a terrible impact on the US. Had we maintained a close relationship with China they would not have cooperated with their natural enemies, the Russians. It is possible that the Korean War would have been avoided or negotiated at the halfway point. Vietnam could have been avoided but we will never know.

When you look at the Franken allegations there are two elements that are completely different from all of the other "predators". First Weinstein, Spacey, Toback, Halperin, Oreskis, Lauer, and Rose all involve the predator actually doing something of a sexual nature: masturbating, forcing sex, inviting to a hotel room, exhibiting their penis.

None of the accusers of Franken accuse him of any of this behaviour but only inappropriate touching, and all of it in public.

The first accuser has been completely discredited because there are videos which show her doing exactly what she accused Franken of against Robin Williams. It is clear from the pictures from the USO tour and her Playboy appearance that she is a woman who used her sexuality as a device to promote her own self interests.

Here is what makes the allegations against Franken so improbable. If you have a predator they are most likely to make advances and attempt sexual activity outside of the camera range, not right in front of it. If Franken was a real predator then there would be stories from the people he worked with who he met in offices with closed doors and his female work associates have all come out in support for him.

Just like Service and his reporting on China, Franken is a prime target for the radical right. He is the one that pressed the case against Fox News and O'Reilly et al. It was his books that established the foundation so that when the allegations came out no one believed the denials. The first accuser against Franken played along with the birther nonsense showing that she has no regard for a standard of truth. The last accuser presented a picture which frankly shows that Franken's arms are too short to reach around the parka to grab her breast but as Trump supporting Republican she is suspicious, not because she is a Republican but because she supports Trump when he is caught doing things much worse than what she is complaining about.

Franken took thousands of pictures and worked with hundreds of women. None of the women that worked with him have seen anything suspicious and the women that are accusing (only 2 of which have become public) him are accusing him of being a predator, but only of light touching and doing it in public before cameras. If Franken was a predator then he wouldn't have been settling for touches he would have escalated. Franken is a goof and may have been in some goofy pictures but the evidence against the man who may well be the most photographed Senator serving in the Senate isn't there.

It would be a tragic mistake for Democrats, out of a sensitivity to a terrible problem, to allow the radical reactionaries target an innocent and great Democratic leader.


66 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
John Stewart Service and why I don't buy any of the Franken allegations (Original Post) grantcart Nov 2017 OP
Recommended. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #1
Agree it's to target prominent critic of Russiagate iluvtennis Nov 2017 #32
Yes to all of this. All of this. Ugh. That last sentence. I WISH others would listen, HAD listened kcr Nov 2017 #2
I agree. Sophia4 Nov 2017 #3
I confess!!! lapfog_1 Nov 2017 #4
That's where I'm at! Little Star Nov 2017 #6
Sorry to say this lapfog_1, but this means you cannot run for Congress still_one Nov 2017 #33
Unless he switches parties, in which case spooky3 Nov 2017 #53
good point!!!!!!!! still_one Nov 2017 #55
The current idea floating around that we must always believe allegations is a scary one. Demit Nov 2017 #5
While allegations must be listened to and treated seriously and with respect, delisen Nov 2017 #48
The current idea that allegations against a Democrat have to be part of a plot is a scary one oberliner Nov 2017 #7
And at least three of whom are Trump supporters, who just happened to have a smiling photo taken OnDoutside Nov 2017 #9
That you are unwilling or unable to allow two separate concepts to exist concurrently is 'scary' as LanternWaste Nov 2017 #10
Agreed oberliner Nov 2017 #18
Examining the claims for plausibility isn't dismissing them out of hand. Demit Nov 2017 #38
I absolutely believe some re-thug operative came across that pic of him grabbing Arianna ... mr_lebowski Dec 2017 #60
that's not the claim grantcart Nov 2017 #11
Yes it is oberliner Nov 2017 #20
Not your not getting it grantcart Nov 2017 #52
You are absolutely right, but, unfortunately you won't win this one.. pangaia Nov 2017 #42
Just where has this "idea that allegations against a Democrat have to be a part of a plot" Atticus Nov 2017 #17
What scares me is that you can't work up the same benefit of the doubt that you The Polack MSgt Nov 2017 #39
As is the current idea that allegations are always legitimate because it's a woman making them GaYellowDawg Dec 2017 #61
Franken vs. Conyers SpicyBoi Nov 2017 #8
It says that we believe in reason grantcart Nov 2017 #12
Just pointing out that... SpicyBoi Nov 2017 #15
We are forcing out someone who has gone through due process and the facts have been established grantcart Nov 2017 #16
It's 2017, all nuance is lost SpicyBoi Nov 2017 #21
I find your charachterization of AA voters to be inherently racist grantcart Nov 2017 #26
Hypothetical SpicyBoi Nov 2017 #29
I don't understand your hypothetical and its off point in any case grantcart Nov 2017 #34
Also in Conyers case a settlement was made through a judicial proceeding still_one Nov 2017 #35
Judicial or through the ethics committe at the House grantcart Nov 2017 #37
we are on the same page grant still_one Nov 2017 #41
i don't think prosecuting conyers is right questionseverything Dec 2017 #62
Those are very distinct cases. Tatiana Nov 2017 #57
I'm not buying it either. Ligyron Nov 2017 #13
I think it helps roy moore and the tax plan. tomp Dec 2017 #63
I agree. good post. Nitram Nov 2017 #14
Thank you ghostsinthemachine Nov 2017 #19
K&R defacto7 Nov 2017 #22
K & R SunSeeker Nov 2017 #23
Absolutely. K&R trof Nov 2017 #24
I've heard rumors about Conyers for years Farmer-Rick Nov 2017 #25
Franken's district? jberryhill Nov 2017 #27
Yeah, you're right. His district is the entire state Farmer-Rick Nov 2017 #31
Hear! Hear! pandr32 Nov 2017 #28
Hear hear is so 19th century, lol. Its "dilly dilly" now. grantcart Nov 2017 #36
But what of the top hat I tipped pandr32 Nov 2017 #58
Thank you, well said PatSeg Nov 2017 #30
K&R Excellent post canetoad Nov 2017 #40
There's another very important difference: The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2017 #43
+1 spooky3 Nov 2017 #54
I agree with you. nt CozyMystery Dec 2017 #59
Thank you cp Nov 2017 #44
Well written, good bacground, and on point. K & R. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2017 #45
Dilly Dilly! A most excellent post as usual for you, grantcart. K&R n/t. ms liberty Nov 2017 #46
Great post, and I find your argument compelling. klook Nov 2017 #47
As usual Egnever Nov 2017 #49
K&R treestar Nov 2017 #50
K&R. dchill Nov 2017 #51
Yes, the right tries to use liberals' "sensitivity" against us. Excellent point. n/t Beartracks Nov 2017 #56
Hey! This is 2017! Stop it with the RATIONAL THINKING! Eyeball_Kid Dec 2017 #64
Awesome post grantcart... NoMoreRepugs Dec 2017 #65
thanks for your thoughts and insights . never heard of service untill now. AllaN01Bear Dec 2017 #66

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. Recommended.
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 02:53 PM
Nov 2017

This is purely an operation to target a prominent critic of Trump and the Russian connection.

kcr

(15,317 posts)
2. Yes to all of this. All of this. Ugh. That last sentence. I WISH others would listen, HAD listened
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 02:54 PM
Nov 2017

That tragic mistake has been made before. It's being made now. It will be made again. Many of us were sounding the warning from the very beginning. It was so frustrating to watch it happen. It's so hard to watch it happening still. Maddening.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
3. I agree.
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 02:54 PM
Nov 2017

Sexual impropriety that crosses the line usually "under the table" or "behind closed doors" or done in some non-public way.

The friendly hug is not sexual impropriety. There is a clear difference.

lapfog_1

(29,205 posts)
4. I confess!!!
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 03:11 PM
Nov 2017

One time, when I was on stage with a group of co-workers, I grabbed a woman's butt without her permission!

We were all standing at the front of the stage lined up for a group photo.
I lost my balance because the guy on my right pushed me in my back.
To keep from falling off the stage, I grabbed the person next to me on my left.

Unfortunately, I grabbed her butt. Totally unintentional.. and I apologized right on the spot. She also grabbed me to keep me from falling by grabbing my shirt.

I was happy that I grabbed her butt to keep from taking a nasty header off the stage.

I wish the photo op had been staged differently (not all of us so close together with our arms and hands behind each other).

Until I hear that Al tried to force himself on women or invited them back to his dressing room or even made an indecent proposal to them... I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

John Conyers... nope, he has got to go.

Roy Moore should have been in jail for 10 to 20 years.



 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
5. The current idea floating around that we must always believe allegations is a scary one.
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 03:20 PM
Nov 2017

It's too easy to use that unquestioning faith for malevolent purposes.

I enjoyed reading your thoughtful post.

delisen

(6,044 posts)
48. While allegations must be listened to and treated seriously and with respect,
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 07:21 PM
Nov 2017

I think the concept that we must believe every allegation negates the rule of law. We still have to weigh evidence.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
7. The current idea that allegations against a Democrat have to be part of a plot is a scary one
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 03:31 PM
Nov 2017

No one is saying Franken is a predator - the claim is that he groped some women.

OnDoutside

(19,960 posts)
9. And at least three of whom are Trump supporters, who just happened to have a smiling photo taken
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 03:44 PM
Nov 2017

with him.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
10. That you are unwilling or unable to allow two separate concepts to exist concurrently is 'scary' as
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 03:50 PM
Nov 2017

"allegations against a Democrat have to be part of a plot is a scary one..."

Thankfully, no one is arguing they have to be part of a pilot, merely potentially a part. That harassment exists in profusion does not deny political coordination using that harassment as a mechanism.



That you are unwilling or unable to allow two separate concepts to exist concurrently is 'scary' as well. Well, not scary; just consistently typical of a narrative.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
18. Agreed
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:30 PM
Nov 2017

They could potentially be part of a plot or just being used by the right-wing for nefarious purposes.

That said, I do think it's important to approach these accusations seriously and not to dismiss them out of hand.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
38. Examining the claims for plausibility isn't dismissing them out of hand.
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 05:23 PM
Nov 2017

Considering the photos being offered as supporting evidence of the allegations; considering context; considering motivation; considering whether it's possible that actions were misinterpreted (either innocently or wilfully)—these are not what you do when you want to dismiss accusations out of hand. They ARE what you do when you approach allegations seriously.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
60. I absolutely believe some re-thug operative came across that pic of him grabbing Arianna ...
Fri Dec 1, 2017, 12:31 AM
Dec 2017

And had him (likely male, anyway) a 'brilliant' idea ... knowing how stupid most people (esp. Faux viewers are), he thought "here's proof!" ... then went about of finding as many pics of other women with Franken as he could, and went about contacting as many of them as possible to see if they were Dump supporters/GOP and would make up a BS story about the photo shoot and him 'groping them'.

Anyone thinking it's a coincidence that there just HAPPENS to be that pic of him w/Arianna, and then pretty much ALL the other accusers ... just happen to be people that had photos taken with Al ... then you're probably not thinking things through, no offense.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
11. that's not the claim
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:04 PM
Nov 2017


The claims are

1) that working in private situations where flirtatious and sexual advances could be made unobserved has never happened and both his Senate and SNL work colleagues have said that he has never been observed in any of these fairly safe situations.

2) that while on a public stage or at a public state farm where he was in front of cameras that he surreptitiously grabbed women.

In one of the cases the woman is a paid Republican provocateur who appeared on Hannity to advance known lies about birtherism and by a woman who is photographed doing much more to Robin Williams than she alleges about Franken

The second known accuser has a photograph that shows Franken hugging her and unlikely to reach her breast but her allegation is that he reached for her breast in front of a camera but doesn't have a picture of it. She also admits that she voted for Trump who has more than a dozen accusers. So does she believe Trump's accusers and votes for him anyway? She also runs a "non profit" which is a very convenient way to receive payments from people who "support her allegations".

The anonymous accusers could be anyone, they weren't vetted by the Washington Post, for example, but in any case the basic charge that Franken is a predator in public when cameras are clicking but a gentleman in a room with a closed door is just laughable.

3) No one is saying that allegations against a Democrat have to be part a plot. They are saying that the facts on this one case don't add up, and they wouldn't add up if he were a Republican.

4) Groping women is the act of a predator. He either accidentally touched some people while setting up pictures or he groped them for sexual gratification.

5) The reactionary right wing nuts are subject to plots. They tried to prove that Eisenhower was a communist, they launched a decade of the Red Scare and they, including Franken's first accuser, launched a plot to try and deny the Presidency and then the legitimacy of President Obama on the birther conspiracy. The main crux of the birther conspiracy is the same that we are seeing on Franken. Repeat a lie often enough and then it takes on a life of its own.

When you can show me that Franken is a sexual predator and used his position for actual sexual actions then I will start to give it wait. This is simply nonsense that is bait for the gullible.
 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
20. Yes it is
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:32 PM
Nov 2017

There are claims of groping - not accidentally touching some people.

Look at the statements from the accusers and the statements from Franken himself.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
52. Not your not getting it
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 07:45 PM
Nov 2017

The allegations taken as a whole are that a person who has a long well documented history of working with women who have universally come out and said that they never saw a hint of such activity in private where it would have been relatively safe gropped women on stage or in highly public areas where cameras were rolling.

Unlike the other reports these have not been screened like the ones by WP. The two public accusers are both Republicans. One is a person who engaged in kissing and gropping with other celebrities and random service people in an effort to sexualize her "role" on USO and sexualized her personality by a Playboy appearance. She has shown that she is confirmed denier of truth when she actively pimped the birther lies on Hannity. The second public accuser was someone who didn't find Trumps accusers credible and happily voted for Trump.

Putting aside his accusers the accusations against Franken are unique in history because they detail a predator who never did anything in a closed room, office, hotel room, or apartment but only "gropped" in public, on stage in front of cameras except the first person who accused him appears in photos and video where she is much more aggressive than anything Franken was accused of and the second has a picture which shows clearly that Franken's arms aren't long enough to effect the action she claimed.

I have read your other statements and your obsession against Franken and have no interest in anything you have to say on the subject.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
42. You are absolutely right, but, unfortunately you won't win this one..
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 05:49 PM
Nov 2017

There are shades and subtleties abounding..

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
17. Just where has this "idea that allegations against a Democrat have to be a part of a plot"
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:30 PM
Nov 2017

been expressed?

The Polack MSgt

(13,189 posts)
39. What scares me is that you can't work up the same benefit of the doubt that you
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 05:29 PM
Nov 2017

Strenuously extend to Trump Voters for a sitting Liberal Democratic Senator.

E.G. this gem:

oberliner (46,732 posts)

65. Understood

My view is that there are many hateful racists who voted for Trump, but there are people out there who actually think that Trump's presidency will be good for African-Americans and other minority groups. Obviously, I think they are misguided in that belief, but I can tell you that those people do exist and do earnestly believe that.


So, a sizable portion of Trumpsters voted for him in a sincere desire to help minorities but Senator Franken is a serial public groper who deserves no benefit of the doubt - Because so far only a large fraction of his accusers have been shown to be lying - not all of them.

Well my view is that after over 2 years of coordinated GOP/Russian ratfucking I will need more than what has been presented before I start building a fire for Senator Franken at the stake of purity.

GaYellowDawg

(4,447 posts)
61. As is the current idea that allegations are always legitimate because it's a woman making them
Fri Dec 1, 2017, 04:01 AM
Dec 2017

No one should be saying that Franken is guilty because a bunch of right-wing Trump voters are making allegations that they cannot back up with a shred of evidence.

SpicyBoi

(162 posts)
8. Franken vs. Conyers
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 03:31 PM
Nov 2017

If we say that we don't believe Al Franken's accusers but we believe Conyers'- what does that say about us?

I'm inclined to fight with Franken or Conyers no matter what. These Republicans fight dirty and we need to win.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
12. It says that we believe in reason
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:07 PM
Nov 2017

Franken's accusers are accusing him of doing predator actions in front of cameras on a stage and are backed by people who support a similarly false smear on President Obama being born in Africa.

Conyers accusers gave evidence that was credible and supported by facts and were made people who had no incentive. Conyers should be prosecuted.

There is no credible evidence against Franken and the idea that someone would be a predator in public and a saint in private is quite laughable.

SpicyBoi

(162 posts)
15. Just pointing out that...
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:20 PM
Nov 2017

We're forcing an African American icon out of Congress and we're desperately trying to keep a white male in Congress.

The optics aren't great

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
16. We are forcing out someone who has gone through due process and the facts have been established
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:27 PM
Nov 2017

and adjudicated through a process that has an established bar for evidence and a vote is taken, literally by a jury of his peers. Conyers was found guilty of ethics violation and a payment was made to his victim.

Franken's accusers haven't even been vetted by the reporters at Post who have been doing a great job and have actually proved that the reactionary right is trying to plant false stories.

Rather than accepting the superficial first blush of "optics" we should pursue the facts and what is actually known.

In any case Conyers is accused of sexual improprieties and Franken is accused of touching in front of cameras, there is no equivalency in the charges, the evidence, or the process. and so any comparison is without any relevance.

SpicyBoi

(162 posts)
21. It's 2017, all nuance is lost
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:33 PM
Nov 2017

Do you think we're going to mobilize African American voters if we're kicking out their leaders?

I don't see how explaining that nuance is possible or would help, but I'm not running the show.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
26. I find your charachterization of AA voters to be inherently racist
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:47 PM
Nov 2017

I am the only person in my family who needs sun tan lotion and I can tell you that all of the other members of my family which goes from brown to dark black have no problem pursuing the truth over 'tribal politics'.

The AA friends I have all talked with perceived Conyers as a big machine politician and not a civil rights leader.

The facts don't support your rather degrading characterization of AA voters.

Secretary Clinton held a 28 point lead over Obama at the start of the primaries in 2008. Characterizing AA voters as not being able to absorbed nuanced positions is very patronizing. I also don't see this as very nuanced. AA voters didn't automatically support Obama, he had to earn their support and I don't think that there has ever been a politician who ran on more 'nuance':



http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/18/poll.2008/index.html

The 28 point lead for Obama is a major reversal from October, when Clinton held a 24 point lead among black Democrats.



I think it would be easy to make the case that AA voters are better informed than other segments of the population and are fully capable to hold complex or nuanced positions. They have seen so much bullshit through the years that they don't just react to "bad optics" but look for actual facts.

SpicyBoi

(162 posts)
29. Hypothetical
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:51 PM
Nov 2017

If Tim Scott was accused of what Roy Moore did, and Republicans acted differently towards Tim Scott v. Roy Moore...

How do you think we would attack the Republicans?

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
34. I don't understand your hypothetical and its off point in any case
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 05:15 PM
Nov 2017

Tim Scott doesn't have the loony tune background that Moore had.

I have no idea who the "we" is in your statement

If an AA with a loony tune background like Moore came up how would DU treat him?

Well probably like we treat Allen Keyes (from a thread today)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029903815

It would appear that you are now suggesting that members of DU or Democrats in general are not capable of nuance and favour minorities over whites as a de rigueur of party discipline. That doesn't equate with either the DU or the Democratic Party I know.

In any case you have evolved completely off point and I will leave you to finish off this very odd sub thread.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
37. Judicial or through the ethics committe at the House
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 05:20 PM
Nov 2017

But in either case it was through a deliberative process where Conyers had an attorney, facts were entered into evidence and a vote was taken by peers and the victim was awarded compensation.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
62. i don't think prosecuting conyers is right
Fri Dec 1, 2017, 04:22 AM
Dec 2017

with his medical problems he definitely needs to retire but dementia can affect a person years before people realize it is a factor ...unless I missed hearing about some violent behavior ,
giving up running for re election was enough for me

Tatiana

(14,167 posts)
57. Those are very distinct cases.
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 09:49 PM
Nov 2017

This goes to the heart of the OP. If Franken was a sexual predator or harasser, this behavior would have first manifested and been evident in his workplace. However, his female co-workers (at SNL, in the Senate, and even back when Air America was broadcasting) have emphatically denied witnessing or being a recipient of this type of behavior. It is not logical to conclude that Franken would have ONLY engaged in this behavior in the MOST PUBLIC settings ever.

It makes no sense. However, Conyers's behavior is alleged to have happened in the workplace, much like Matt Lauer's, much like Weinstein's and most other people who sexually harass others.

Ligyron

(7,633 posts)
13. I'm not buying it either.
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:11 PM
Nov 2017

Notice how it shut Al up too.

Normally, with all that's going on in Congress Franken would be loud and vocal about it.

Not now. It worked.

Farmer-Rick

(10,183 posts)
25. I've heard rumors about Conyers for years
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:42 PM
Nov 2017

But I was in no position to do anything. I'm just a random man who has friends in Conyers' district that are in politics.

I also have friends in Franken's district and I've never heard a word about possible sexual harassment.

That by itself means little to others but to me it means a lot.

I agree, Franken is a target of Moore and Trump RepubliCON dirty tricks. They wanted to shut him up. It has worked to some extent.

Farmer-Rick

(10,183 posts)
31. Yeah, you're right. His district is the entire state
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:57 PM
Nov 2017

My sister voted for him and follws his career, as I guess many do in the great state of MN.

Sometimes my age catches up with me.

PatSeg

(47,493 posts)
30. Thank you, well said
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 04:57 PM
Nov 2017

I am afraid that the same thing could happen to other politicians that the far right want to bring down. In the meantime, genuine serious allegations of sexual assault might not be taken seriously.

canetoad

(17,167 posts)
40. K&R Excellent post
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 05:47 PM
Nov 2017

You are right. Every one of Franken's so-called transgressions happened in public and the accusers are trying to spin that the camera is lying.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,728 posts)
43. There's another very important difference:
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 05:50 PM
Nov 2017

In all of the other situations there was a power differential between the man and the women he assaulted - in those cases a powerful executive or media star was taking advantage of a lower-level employee or other person in that person's industry who depended on being in his good graces to remain employed or to get work in that industry. In Roy Moore's case, even though the girls weren't employees he took advantage of his position and its prestige in order to try to get "dates" with them. Franken never had that kind of power - the mostly anonymous women who accused him of touching them inappropriately were not his employees or others who were in some subordinate position; with the exception of Tweeden they were total strangers who were posing with him for a photo (in public). Tweeden was also not a subordinate in any respect; while Franken was better-known as an entertainer he had no power over her or her career (and her whole story smells bad on account of the involvement of Roger Stone and Sean Hannity).

The Garrison Keillor matter also smells fishy. But I do believe the complaints against the others, including Conyers.

klook

(12,155 posts)
47. Great post, and I find your argument compelling.
Thu Nov 30, 2017, 07:03 PM
Nov 2017

To suggest that an otherwise sagacious and conscientious person like Franken would grope a woman in a public place like the Minnesota State Fair, with cameras and cell phones everywhere, is ludicrous. And the known facts in the Tweeden "case" provide nothing that would require Franken to resign.

AllaN01Bear

(18,245 posts)
66. thanks for your thoughts and insights . never heard of service untill now.
Fri Dec 1, 2017, 02:20 PM
Dec 2017

ps : read it and bookmarked it for later review. i hope that this man isnt shafted. i smell a rat and swift boat.( internal sirens blazing) my late mom wound up on mcarthys blacklist for attendin the model un in sf. taking a comparative gov class and sex ed class at cal berkly.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»John Stewart Service and ...