DT has been taking a wrecking ball to the "Establishment." As he often reminds us.

[pnwmom]

To the State Department, to the FDA, to the EPA, and on and on and on.

Are we happy now?

Because that's what we wanted, right? To dismantle the "establishment"?

DT is doing just what so many on the right and the left called for.

[pnwmom]

2. Then they shouldn't have called for the same thing -- overturning the Establishment.

That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Our established Democracy was a good thing, that people should have been working to continually IMPROVE, not dismantle.

[pnwmom]

6. Then they shouldn't talk about taking down the establishment, because that's exactly what

DT is doing. He's dismantling our established bureaucratic systems as fast as he can.

[Wwcd]

11. "Establishment" was thrown out a million times a day,as a generalized negative word, to divide Dems

I never ever heard anyone say the word establishment with a clear defination as to what they meant by it.

It was a keyword intended for negative impact.
It worked.
Congrats

[pnwmom]

12. Then they should be specific. You must not have noticed, but DT constantly spoke

against "the Establishment" during the campaign -- and he was clearly referring to the government.

He's giving people what they voted for.

[JHB]

14. Both Democratic centrists and the left(s) have used "progressive"...

...to describe themselves. They "should" use different terms since they don't mean the same thing by it, but that's not how languages work.

[pnwmom]

15. Mainstream and "centrist" Democrats ARE progressive, compared to everyone on the right

and in their views.

"Centrist" Democrats believe in the same core values as other Democrats, all of which are progressive.

[JHB]

20. Sure, but your OP is about terminology that isn't orderly enough to suite you...

...and in the post you are replying to I was using "progressive" as an example of two different camps (Democratic centrists and the left(s)) using the same word to mean different things.

Which your reply comparing Democrats to the right doesn't address at all.

Your OP notes "DT is doing just what so many on the right and the left called for." Subsequent posts refined that further, homing in on the fact that both use the term "establishment". And that they "should" use different terms if they mean different things, which is a ridiculous thing to expect. I brought up "progressive" as an example of the same word meaning different things to different groups precisely because Democratic centrists and the lefts(s) are ideologically closer than either one to the right but still use the same word differently because it evolved within each group, shaped by their different perspectives.

The different perspectives driving the different uses of uses of "establishment" have been decades in the making, so combining the two uses just because Kremlin Don and his Bannonite flunkies use it too is ridiculous. Not quite on par, but still uncomfortably in the same direction, as RW talking points that Nazis were actually liberals because they had "Socialist" in their German name.

I've been on DU longer than you, but you have 3 times my post count, so I've read plenty of your work and have been on board with most of it. But this is one where I think your premise is sloppy and unproductive.

[bettyellen]

28. You forgot Planned Parenthood, and many Dems being slimed as "establishment" just for having

Accomplishments and good working relationships with others. If you weren't a loner disrupting "the system" you weren't cool enough for the people who claimed they wanted to literally "burn it down". Poor suckers thought a perfect new world would emerge from the ashes.

[JHB]

9. Are you under the impression that they coordinated with each other?

Because without that there's no particular reason to expect the word to mean precisely the same things to two different groups with their own sets of jargon.

[bettyellen]

29. It's known that the Russians put out memes for the Hillary haters that some lefties fell for.

Didn't you see the deluge of RT and Sputnick crap being spread by "progressives" last year? I saw tons on FB. They didn't give a shit it was Russian propaganda as long as it made HRC sound like "and establishment shill".

[JHB]

32. I first heard the term "Democratic establishment" in the 1980s...

...and while some of the details were different, the basic framework was the same: the top party leadership.

I continued to encounter this term in the 90s. And 2000's. Didn't you see that?

The Russkies exploited it, but it's flat-out wrong to pretend they invented it. And people who used it before them had their reasons. You might agree with those reasons, you might not, but they existed long before Russian interference.

[bettyellen]

40. Of course they didn't invent it- but both ends of the spectrum repopularized it last year.

I can't believe anyone who claims they didn't hear it's use surge last year. It appeals to the rabid destructive nature of he most ignorant and easily angered.

[yardwork]

43. It's obvious that they were coordinated.

[Wwcd]

10. Thanks for your post. They all own the craphole this country is caving into.

Every one who repeated it.
They shared the keywords. Left & Right.
We all remember it.

All they had was destruction of her character. Repeated & shared it between them.

They all own this disaster today.

[Wwcd]

38. Maybe just stop refighting the Primary.

[Angry Dragon]

3. it is more broke now

[world wide wally]

4. But the swamp is filling up more

[Wwcd]

8. + a million.

Asshholes. Sellouts.

Ya all proud of yourselves now?

[MindPilot]

16. Seriously?! Trump IS the establishment.

White, christian, rich, authoritarian, that's the establishment. And DT sure as hell ain't dismantling any of it.

[pnwmom]

17. He defines the government as the Establishment, and he's doing everything he can

to dismantle it.

[MindPilot]

18. Yeah, he also defines himself as a great dealmaker with the best words

and he's wrong about that too.

And he isn't dismantling anything. That implies a deliberative and methodical disassembly process. Trump's just breaking stuff because he doesn't know anything about it.

Please do give him so much credit.

[bettyellen]

30. He's been given the task of "shrinking the government" and yes they have been firing everyone

Competent and only added people who want to destroy the depts they "work" for. It's easy to destroy things, and yes, it's one of the only things he is good at. And he has a ton of help with the GOP.

[joshcryer]

19. Planned Parenthood

Establishment.

[redgreenandblue]

42. Maybe Trump wouldn't be president if they had spent those millions on ads in swing states...

...during the general election, instead of pissing them away by injecting themselves into a primary between two candidates with identical positions on choice.

[joshcryer]

48. They "injected" themselves by doing something they did for over a decade and a half?

[edhopper]

21. So you think the Military Industrial Complex

and Wall Street are the same as the EPA?

Interesting.

[pnwmom]

22. Where did I say that? If people want to fight the military-industrial complex,

that's what they should say.

Not that they want to fight the "Establishment" -- which many people think is equivalent to the members of Congress and the Governors.

[JHB]

23. You are unreasonably singling out use of that word, which means different things to...

...different groups, and are getting push-back about the conflation.

Why do you assume disparate groups would have uniform views of what they think of as "the establishment"?

And please do not use the words "should" or "shouldn't" in your answer. You are not the Supreme Arbiter of word usage. Languages just do not work that way.

[pnwmom]

25. I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. Please don't tell me what I "should "

or shouldn't say.

[JHB]

33. I didn't tell you what you "should" or "should't" say. All I ask...

...is that you do the same and not tell people what their terminology "should" be decades after it had developed.

[yardwork]

45. The same word was used by both factions opposed to Hillary Clinton.

[edhopper]

24. I haven't heard "The Establisment" from liberals

since 1969.

Sounds like you built a strawman for your rant.

[pnwmom]

26. You've got to be kidding.

For example,

https://www.thenation.com/article/nina-turner-it-is-not-our-job-to-fit-into-the-democratic-establishment/

Or how about when Planned Parenthood got slammed as part of the "establishment"?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/01/20/bernie_sanders_says_planned_parenthood_is_establishment_is_it.html

[bettyellen]

31. LOL, heard it hundreds of times last year. Sanders disparaged Planned Parenthood w that word....

I won't soon forget that. He used the word all the time, I guess you're not a fan either.

[JHB]

34. I have to go halfway here, on this. I've heard the term in it's current usage...

...(with the caveat that in some quarters current usage is overly expansive) since the 1980s.

I mention this because, as I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it's not a recently-developed term, and indicates an actual difference of viewpoint within the party that would be unproductive to dismiss as a Russian propaganda invention.

[yardwork]

46. I guess you didn't read DU in 2015 and 2016.

[democratisphere]

27. drumpf's wreaking ball is about to hit the middle class right between the eyes.

Looks like he is wreaking everything that benefits the masses.

[redgreenandblue]

41. The left doesn't define establishment in that way. But you know that and are just shit stirring. nt

[pnwmom]

47. The wide swath of people in the middle think the people on the left and right are BOTH

criticizing the established government.

Language matters. And using a term that can be so easily misunderstood doesn't seem to be a good idea.

[betsuni]

44. K&R