Mueller's investigation is pardon proof -Federal local and state

[malaise]

LOCK THEM UP

Watching Akerman on GEM$NBComcast - money laundering is going to destroy them.

Jared Kushner is going to follow his daddy to prison.

[YessirAtsaFact]

1. Link?

?

[malaise]

2. I was watching on GEM$NBComcast n/t

[Wellstone ruled]

3. Akerman nows what is up.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

21. Is that a TV thang? Does it help me now?

[BigmanPigman]

4. I tried to tell this to the Thanksgiving Dinner guests (all Dems)

that the NY AG will nail the fucking moron and the Baltimore AG will nail Jared. No pardons can help them in those situations! GOOD!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

22. What does a state AG have to do with making federal offenses pardon proof?

The OP does nothing to explain this novel theory.

[tblue37]

29. Schneiderman nails them on NY state charges of money laundering, and state charges

cannot be pardoned by the president. Only federal charges can.

They might have committed other state crimes, too.

[grantcart]

32. They are crimes normally handled in federal court but in this case the

are keeping them off the table for possible state prosecution.

[NCjack]

5. I hope Jaded (sic) gets his daddy's cell. nt

Last edited Tue Dec 5, 2017, 11:05 PM - Edit history (1)

[SergeStorms]

35. Just think of the nice.....

prison cell accoutrements Ivanka can have her slaves in China whip up for JarJar. It'll be downright homey for Man/Child 2. I'm sure she can come up with some nice gold accessories for Daddy's cell, knowing how fond Man/Child 1 is of everything gold colored. She'll be a busy, busy girl! It'll help he pass the time while she waits faithfully (ahem...) for her man to return from prison.

[Xolodno]

6. I'm thinking Kushner and Jr. will get pardoned...

...then vacate the country before the state level kicks in. Dump will pardon himself and shortly follow. We could very well have our first criminal President living abroad. It will be Putin's final FU.

Some nations probably won't extradite given "they are pardoned" at the Federal Level and their treaties apply to the Federal Government and not state....or at least that's excuse they will give when they see Dump open a briefcase full of greenbacks.

Hopefully, I'm wrong and they do serve time.

[flamingdem]

7. They'll be eating borscht

pronto!

[Duppers]

9. Russia will not want them because...

They cannot effectively do anything for Russia at that point. Their assets and cash will be frozen.

[beastie boy]

18. This is an interesting point.

Even if trump manages to get away with pardoning himself (thereby admitting guilt to the charges), the US, as well as a multitude of organizations and individuals, can go after the assets of the admitted criminal, both at home and abroad. He may keep his freedom but lose his pants.

Given trump's ego and vanity, he is more likely to survive losing the former than the latter.

[SergeStorms]

36. Imagine that......

All of Trump's golf courses going to seed, returning the earth to it's natural state. It sounds wonderful, and I'm doubly sure the people of Scotland will be forever grateful.

[azureblue]

38. oh, Russia will want them alright

it's called "collateral". You don't borrow from the Russian mob and think you can just walk away from it, do you?

[Duppers]

41. But their bodies wouldn't be worth a plug nickel...

if all their assets have been frozen or confiscated via US law, then what would IQ45 and Jared have to repay the Russians at that point? Their lives?

[Xolodno]

15. Doubt if its borscht....

...to much of a liability for Putin.

I'm thinking he's going to be eating Turkish delights or Azeri kabobs.

[lagomorph777]

8. Turd can't pardon himself.

But if he wants to self-exile in Russia, I'll be happy to throw in AF1. He's probably already shared all its secret systems with Putin anyway.

[Xolodno]

13. We all know that....

...it will go to the courts and fail. But it will suffice enough as a distraction while he gets the hell out of Dodge.

[getagrip_already]

23. will it?

There is no conflict of interest clause or limit of any kind in the wording of the constitution relative to the power to pardon.

scotus has at least 4 originalists and constitutional powers are generally treated with deference. Even the scotus is immune from conflict of interest law. They set the rules by which they operate, and they guard that right jealously.

The separation of powers clauses in the constitution are tricky things. Each power has a balancing power in other branches. They may very well rule he has the power to pardon himself, just as the congress has the power to impeach him.

It's inefficient, but that is on purpose.

The concepts of conflict of interest and no person is above the law are not written into the constitution. Don't take for granted they will be interpreted to exist.

[lagomorph777]

42. Dowd and Dershowitz are pretty much the only people who believe that.

[getagrip_already]

43. there are only 5 people on earth who's opinion matter....

And 4 of those are certain. So in practice, only john roberts opinion matters.

If any of the 4 dems creats an opening, it's over.

Look at it this way. If a case involving clarence thomas came before the court, clarence thomas would be the one to decide if he had a conflict of interest in hearing the case. He, and he alone, determines it. He could cast a vote just by declaring he can put aside his own interests and make his decision on the merits of the case.

If they rule the pres has limits, they are saying they do, and they aren't likely to do that. It isn't in the constitution, so it will be an interpretation.

[Sophia4]

28. They could bring the state charges first if they are able to bring state charges.

[getagrip_already]

45. the supremacy clause is trouble....

because the doj could just file similar charges and then they could botch the case, bury it, or let it be pardoned.

The feds have first dibs on prosecuting cases, and muehler has no veto on what doj does.

[Sophia4]

48. But the state case could be for a violation of a state law that has not parallel

in federal law. Also, if the charges are serious enough to warrant a state indictment, the very fact of the indictment could be enough to cause resignations, maybe even impeachments.

It's the illegal conduct that is the problem, not necessarily the charges. The written charges could finish the Trump presidency if they are serious enough. Of course, I do not know what they might be or even if they will be found to exist.

I don't jump to conclusions about these things. The facts must be discovered and analyzed. I'm not privy to them.

[getagrip_already]

51. thats the keyhole to slither through.....

If there is no federal analog, like violating nys specific law, then the feds can't grab it.

trump isn't going to care about impeachment, just his legal jeopardy. He believes he can bully the gop to not convict.

[Sophia4]

58. Yes.

[byronius]

10. Also, Laurence Tribe's statement yesterday about the Presidential immunity myth.

Then this, today --

"The claim that the President “cannot obstruct justice” because he heads the justice system is made only by Trump’s lawyer John Dowd and by my former colleague Alan Dershowitz. The claim is utterly ludicrous. And the view it betrays is profoundly dangerous to democracy under law."

[Duppers]

11. Excellent !

[malaise]

16. As folks I know like to say:hi:

Correct is right

[NewJeffCT]

12. How is it pardon proof

at a federal level?

I'd love for Mueller to be working with some state attorneys general to coordinate charges at the state level, but I've only seen federal charges brought so far.

[Nevernose]

14. A Flynn pardon might be more damaging

Than the current situation, at least for the White House.

Anyone who gets a pardon is no longer in jeopardy. You only have the right to remain silent if you’re in jeopardy.

So if Flynn were pardoned, he’d HAVE to tell law enforcement everything they asked or he’d be committing a whole new crime.

[NewJeffCT]

20. according to Laurence Tribe

Flynn would not lose his right to remain silent because he (or Manafort or Papadopolous) would still be able to be prosecuted at the state level.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. That doesn't explain the OP's BIZARRE theory about being pardon-proof FEDERALLY. . . nt

[malaise]

33. Akerman said so

he said it was pardon-proof because there was co-operation at all three levels. It made sense to me but what do I know.

[Nevernose]

27. Only for state level crimes

And there’s a lot less evidence that Flynn is a New York based bad actor, as opposed to Trump, Kushner, and Manafort, who apparently go on vacation just to commit some spare crimes.

He’d still have to testify to any federal crimes he was a part of.

[pnwmom]

17. There have been reports that Mueller IS coordinating with Schneiderman.

And he probably is, since it's the wisest thing to do.

[malaise]

19. They'll get them at the state or local levels

so I shouldn't have included federal.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

25. Oh, now, over an hour later, you confess that you made a click bait title and HAVEN'T EDITED IT.

[malaise]

30. Well if the Con is impeached that will be Federal

I don't do click bait.

[kst]

34. Click bait or not ...

Your original post is misleading. The President can issue pardons for federal offenses.
(There's some question whether he can pardon himself, but he can certainly pardon
staffers and family members.)

Impeachment and removal from office obviously takes away that power, but he can
issue pardons 30 seconds before the Senate votes to convict him.

"so I shouldn't have included federal."

You can still fix that in your original post, yes?

[getagrip_already]

26. keep in mind...

the supremacy clause of the constitution states the feds can take jurisdiction of crimes from the states. As long as there is an analogue to a state law, the feds can choose to take away the case and prosecute it themselves.

At which point, they can botch it, bury it, or let it be pardoned without challenge.

[malaise]

31. Good point

Thanks

[Hoyt]

37. I don't see any state finding a jury that will convict these criminals. They'll be at least

one hold out on juries. They can, however, harass them. But, is it really worth the cost? Hope I'm wrong.

[secondwind]

39. This is what I have always said... it's the money laundering that will get him and his family.

[beaglelover]

40. You have lots of fans at DI

https://www.discussionist.com/10151553025

All those losers and psychos do all day is post about DU Threads over at DI. LOL!!!

[Skittles]

46. why post what those fascist fucks think?

FUCK THEM

[beaglelover]

47. They are our sister site. Why does it bother you so much?

[Skittles]

52. fuck that shyte

they are a SEPARATE SITE where FASCIST FUCKS find a home

[beaglelover]

53. Not everyone on DI is a FASCIST FUCK.

[Skittles]

54. but they don't EJECT fascist fucks

THEY HAVE A HOME THERE

[beaglelover]

55. Very true. Why would supposed Dems want to even post on that board?

[Skittles]

56. I don't know

maybe for the same reason someone would post their crap here?

[beaglelover]

57. You think? Maybe that's true. You should ask your buddy.

[Skittles]

59. I have NO idea what you are talking about

[beaglelover]

60. I believe that to be true.

[Skittles]

61. over and out, for good

[malaise]

49. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

I don't post there and I never go there.

[beaglelover]

50. You are VERY wise!

[workinclasszero]

44. Yup

Twitler can't pardon state crimes thank God.

LOCK THEM UP!!

[malaise]

62. And as Ari is saying right now the agreement Flynn signed is to cooperate with

state and local prosecutors as well as Feds.
Damn Mueller is thorough!

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah - breaking Mueller's new tool.

[workinclasszero]

63. "state and local prosecutors as well as Feds"

Mueller is closing the trap on the whole crime family I hope!

[malaise]

64. Yep

He is serious