recognize theater when you see the play! he is allowing dems to call for a decision he already made!

[unblock]

we can wonder about what prompted this now, but it's really, really unlikely at this point that franken isn't in on this performance.

he isn't being "pressured" out, at least not by these public calls for resignation. they may or may not have been pressuring him privately, but most likely they came to a decision that he couldn't be defended and decided to co-ordinate an exit. and part of that exit was allowing time for all the other senators to make public statements calling for him to resign. it makes them look good, like they're putting principle over party.

why they came to this conclusion i don't know. maybe they have no spines, sure. maybe they found out something worse that's not yet public, i don't know. maybe franken just decided he didn't want to fight. i don't know.

but i do know that looks an awful lot like the decision was made first and all the public statements asking for resignation came after they already knew what the outcome would be.

[msongs]

1. so its a show.. where dems are an angry mob denying justice and due process? poor

plot IMO

[unblock]

4. he's not being denied due process!

and they are not calling on the senate to expel him! *that* would be what denying justice and due process would look like.

[Demsrule86]

21. Yes he was...no doubt he was told resign or we expel you.

[unblock]

28. if he wants to challenge it he can go through the process.

*if* he's actually being railroaded here, then he can insist on due process and go through an investigation, possibly ending in him getting expelled.

my own opinion is that the democratic senators know more about the case than we do (at least some of them have to have more details if they're going to effectively defend franken). likely they know either there's an endless stream of similar accusations or something markedly worse, in which case franken really can't survive an investigation and vote on whether he should be expelled.

the sudden turn of events has to have been triggered by something, and i suspect it's either by franken realizing he has to resign, or by franken revealing (or in any event some other democratic senators becoming aware of) something worse that he can't survive politically.

either way, he's not being denied due process, he's essentially agreeing to plead guilty, or perhaps the democratic senators are pressuring him to plead guilty, which is no more a denial of due process than when your lawyer pressures you to take a plea deal or at least tells you your case is hopeless.

franken has to have presented his defense to his democratic colleagues. if he can't convince them in private, he's not going to win when republicans join in.


now, if all these senators decided at basically the same time to call for his head without knowing any more and without giving franken an opportunity to defend himself even in private, and while franken still wants to go through the process and still thinks he can survive, and as far as they know there are no more accusation coming, and they're going to expel him without even allowing him an investigation, then yeah, sure, that would be a denial of due process.

i just think at least one of those assumptions is false.

[Demsrule86]

29. I disagree...

I am very very angry and any involved in this will not get my vote in a primary.

[Demsrule86]

8. That is what I think too.

[MaryMagdaline]

2. EXACTLY!!! This is done with Al's permission

[LisaL]

7. Complete and utter nonsense.

[hlthe2b]

9. agree

[unblock]

12. you really think franken is completely caught off-guard by all these calls for resignation?

if franken really is completely innocent and getting railroaded, then he's way more politically inept than everything else in his political career would suggest.

if he's completely innocent, then he handled everything about this whole scandal wrong.

[LisaL]

15. He hasn't even made the decision yet.

So it's ludicrous to claim that someone he is in on it.

[unblock]

17. this is like when people say they haven't decided to run for president

when of course they've already decided, but they're planning an event and a venue for the official announcement.

not nearly as much fun, of course, but the same thing going on.

there's no way franken at this point is still pondering.

in fact, even if i'm wrong and he's completely blind-sided by all this, there's still no way he doesn't know at this point whether or not he's resigning.

that just makes no sense at all.

[hlthe2b]

16. he tried to do the honorable thing, and apologize for a satyric inappropriate photo and skit--

behavior that crossed the line. He asked for a ethics investigation. He apologized for photo ops that he did not recall, but were deemed to be groping years later. He then got bombarded with anonymous accusations, to which no one can really address.

If he's guilty, the ethics investigation should have sent him packing. But we'll never, know now, will we? All we know is the RW has their scalp and WE gave it to them sans any process at all.

But conflating all manner of touch as groping with sexual assault, pedophilia, sexual extortion and coerced sexual behavior by the powerful is apparently what some feel to be appropriate and if some "innocents" get caught up, well we stood the "moral high ground". Of course there will be an inevitable backlash from such conflation, not to mention the ramifications of losing very good people to be replaced with RW ideologues who will NEVER give a damn or be responsible for anything. And unfortunately, the inevitable backlash will ensure that even the most horrific incidents are no longer believed or acted upon.

[Demsrule86]

22. It is the same old story...the GOP demonizes effective Democrats and some Democrats pile on...

It has been going on for years...If we don't stand up and fight and stop letting the GOP define us, we will lose. We need to go on the offensive and stop playing defense to their lies and bullshit.

[moriah]

40. Actually, after the veteran accusation....

.... it very well could be that he elected to not traumatize her even if she might have misinterpreted something by letting it get to the investigation. Because she'd have to recount her assault prior to his alleged grab, etc. Even if done with sensitivity and gentleness, you *know* what the optics of Democrats grilling a veteran who obviously was denied justice and treatment by the military for her assault will do for Faux's ratings.

But also, it's a scramble for the moral high ground. It's a position the Republicans relish -- it's easy for people like RMoney, who would probably be willing to humiliate himself a third time and run for President again, to condemn Moore, condemn the guy who sent video of himself jacking to a consensual long-distance partner, to condemn anyone who has been hiding in the closet and voting against gay rights, etc. They love it there.

I do believe that Franken will do whatever he thinks is best for Party and country. He's already been extremely careful, almost to the point of martyrdom (except about the bathroom allegation, that was too close to Larry Craig for me to believe or for him to not outright deny the way he did), about saying women should be listened to.

If he's been assured his governor will put in a good Democratic replacement, and it's best for him to retire gracefully so Dems can scramble up to that high ground before Moore could get seated.... he might "take one for the Party".

[hlthe2b]

3. You really believe that?

[unblock]

5. uh, yes.

[Demsrule86]

6. No it makes them look weak...and this sort of thing is going to cause us to lose...if the tax bill

comes back what makes you think the GOP will seat new governor appointed Senator in time?

[hlthe2b]

10. yup..

[unblock]

11. you can argue that it's a poor play, fine.

i'm just making the argument that franken isn't being caught off-guard by all these public calls for him to resign.

at this point it seems obvious, if he were going to challenge it, there's no way all these senators would be doing this all at the same time. they're only doing it because they know he's announcing his resignation tomorrow.

it's really the only explanation that makes any sense.

will republicans play nice with the replacement? of course they won't. they took 4 months i think to seat franken in the first place....

[EffieBlack]

14. They cant delay seating the replacement

They delayed Franken because of the recount. If a replacement is appointed, they hav3 to seat him/her unless there it’s a constitutional impediment (not old enough, doesn’t live I n the state, etc.)

[Demsrule86]

19. They don't have to seat him/her. They absolutely don't.

And we know the GOP plays dirty. I would bet this whole Franken bullshit was to get the tax bill through. With Franken gone it makes it easier.

"Both houses of the United States Congress have refused to seat new members based on Article I, Section 5 of the United States Constitution which states that, "Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members, and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business; but a ...
People also ask"

[EffieBlack]

30. Yes, they do ...

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Powell v. McCormack, that Congress cannot refuse to seat a duly elected Member unless they fail to meet one of the qualifications enumerated in the Constitution. That would also apply to a duly appointed member, as well.

“Congress' power under Art. I, § 5, to judge the ‘Qualifications of its Members’ is a ‘textually demonstrable constitutional commitment . . . to [that] co-ordinate political department of government’ to judge only standing qualifications which are expressly set forth in the Constitution; hence, the House has no power to exclude a member-elect who meets the Constitution's membership requirements.” Pp. 395 U. S. 518-548.” https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/395/486/case.html#518

Once seated, a member can be expelled under their rules for any number of reasons beyond the constitutionally enumerated qualifications, but that’s a different issue. The bottom line is that the Senate has no authority to refuse to seat a senator who has been duly elected or appointed.

FYI - this would apply to Roy Moore, as well, which means the veiled threats made earlier by McConnell, et al, who clearly know the law, were pure bs.

[Demsrule86]

41. You miss an important word...'elected'

Franken's successor will be appointed.

[EffieBlack]

42. That word is not the operative point - Appointed or elected, the Courts reasoning and holding stand

If you read the entire case, you will understand. The issue isn’t not that they were elected, it’s that they were sent to the Senate through the appropriate process set forth in the Constitution - in this instance, by appointment to fill a vacancy, which is provided in the Constitution, so the holding would apply. The only basis on which the Senate can deny a senator a seat is if they don’t meet the constitutional qualifications. Period.

I’m a former constitutional law professor who has studied this issue in depth and know what I’m talking about. Trust me.

But even if you don’t, you will see it as it rolls out. It is highly unlikely that the Senate will even try to block Franken’s successor - the Senate parliamentarian probably wouldn’t let them. And even if they did try it, the Court precedent would shut it down. Not even a close call.

[Demsrule86]

43. It is the point...there is no protection for appointed...and the GOP will probably use it.

[EffieBlack]

44. Youre wrong

But I’m not going to argue you with you. I’ll leave you to interpret the case however you like.

[Demsrule86]

45. I certainly hope I am wrong...but if he tries then what? How much can he force through while it

plays out in court...look for a push to force Franken out now...they really wanted him out right away for the tax bill. Now we get to fight for a purple seat we shouldn't have to in 20...I am just sick about this...really very angry.

[Demsrule86]

18. He tried to play it properly ...investigation...but I think we need our own hit machine

Last edited Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:13 AM - Edit history (1)

against these bastards...because they are doing this...also if the tax bill goes through because of Franken's resignation and it could , then the Democratic leaders truly screwed up and badly. They need to realize we are in the fight of our lives...and wait for others to be attacked too...because the door is now open. I think some want the party destroyed so they are OK with this. I am not.

[treestar]

23. Yes. Just letting them make accusations

and all the while, THEY get seated when there is more than mere accusations!

[Demsrule86]

24. It is all about taking down effective Democrats...and I think the tax bill.

[Kimchijeon]

32. Bingoooo

[EffieBlack]

13. Interesting

That could explain the sudden where-in-the-hell-did-this-come-from pile-on

[RandiFan1290]

20. The chocolate ration has been increased to 20 grams!

[peggysue2]

25. You could be right

The sudden pile-on does not make much sense unless . . .

Dam leadership knows more than we do about the various accusations,

Franken had already decided not to fight and step down,

This is a purge mentality/let's have a righteous, populist Democratic moment or

As you stated, all or part of the above with political theater thrown into the mix.

Whatever. It sickens me because a public airing, IMO, is the only way to settle this once and for all. That and the political theater angle angers me as a Democratic voter/member. What? We're not capable of handling the truth, knowing the details from both the women and Senator Franken?

This whole sorry affair has the stink of sulphur, a deliberate hit-job on a very effective Democratic voice. Yes, Franken opened the door with his boorish, sophomoric behavior. But a public execution is a bit much. If this is how we gain the moral high-ground--accusations = automatic resignations--then expect an avalanche of new harassment charges to arrive before the 2018 elections. What a cheap, easy way to knock out the opposition. Merely point a finger and the job is done.

[ollie10]

26. oh, it's theater alright....but not the play you are describing

The theater is the presidential wannabees of the Democratic Party who want to score some points at the expense of truth, at the expense of the voters of Minnesota, at the expense of the Senate, at the expense of the Democratic Party.

They will rin on a Kick Them While They Are Down platform.....

Cheap Shots For America 2020~~~

[TDale313]

27. I have the same impression.

I think the decision had been made and many of these calls for resignation now are an attempt to go on the record on this.

[bigbrother05]

31. If this is is true, do you think he knows who is being proposed to replace him?

Al is nobody's fool. If he saw it to be inevitable do you think he negotiated to have input on a replacement?

Don't think he would go quietly unless he was comfortable with the person that would represent MN.

[hexola]

33. Im not so sure about this...

We'll see soon

[Paladin]

34. I wonder if you're prepared to engage in this level of cynical trashing....

....against a Republican lawmaker in similar circumstances. My guess is that you're not---I think you're part of the Democratic Hyper-Purity Police that currently occupy way too much time and space here at DU. I'm all for personal accountability, and I certainly don't support any sort of sexual abuse. But at some point we have to stop inflicting so much damage on ourselves and direct our efforts against the right-wing monsters who are destroying our country.

[unblock]

35. very wrong.

honestly i'd much prefer debating issues on their merits. it's unbelievably stupid that we as a society choose things like tax policy, foreign policy, and who gets what freedoms based on the semi-secret sex lives of a few politicians.

really. should we effectively take away health insurance for 10 million people and take money from hard earning people and give it to people who literally have more than they know what to do with? i don't know, lemme see, has anyone in opposition patted any butts lately?

how idiotic is that?


but given that we do have some notion that these people need to not be creeps, i certainly think donnie, moore, and gianforte need to go. well, moore needs to never show up in the first place.

as for franken, i certainly would prefer it if he's got a good defense, that there's nothing more than what we've heard, and that if there's an investigation it will find nothing beyond what we've already heard.

if all the recent noise is just from democratic senators suddenly panicking en masse, i'll be very disappointed. my read, though, is that they're responding to something the all recently learned.

the only things i can think that might be is either franken privately saying he's resigning or it becoming apparent that he can't possibly win an ethics fight -- which in turn must be due to a new revelation (that the public doesn't yet know).

i can't think why else democratic senators would suddenly do this en masse. why not when it first came out, and why in response to nothing? there's got to be something.



i'd say it goes without saying that republicans ought to be held to the same standard and there are plenty of them who ought to go, but clearly we all should be saying that more as well.

i'd be thrilled if franken says he'll go when donnie goes.

i've also suggested he announce he feels more welcome in the republican party and trolls them relentlessly for the rest of his term

[Orsino]

36. That is the least important theatrical aspect of the situation.

I'm interested in Franken's motivations, anxious that he should not give up if there is a good defense to be made, but resolved that if he knows he's guilty (and maybe guiltier of further accusations) that he should make the party look less odious by removing himself quickly.

But I'm sure you're right about Dems taking advantage of a decision made a while ago. That hints to me that Franken knows that more and worse stories are on the way.

[Iggo]

37. His plan was to make the rest of the Dem establishment look suicidal, weak, and idiotic?

Fiendishly clever plan!

[unblock]

38. we will know, maybe in an hour, maybe a month, whether this was all stupid or not.

if franken has to leave for other reasons, or has a worse secret that we don't find out about until later, then this will all look pretty reasonable in highsight.

if there never was anything more than what we know now and this was all some democratic senators panicking, then yeah. pretty idiotic.

[Cosmocat]

39. lol

right?

[greeny2323]

46. Hey maybe there's something about you

Maybe you have something hidden. Who knows?

See how easy this is?