I am going to attempt to defend Al Franken without all the sexist garbage.

[boston bean]

Every single man woman and child has made mistakes in life. Some worse than others.

Murder is worse than armed robbery.

Armed robbery is worse than stealing.

Stealing is worse than speeding.

Speeding is worse than illegal parking.

This is why in a civilized society we have different punishments for different offenses. Basically there is a sliding scale of punishments to fit the crime.

The same holds true most things in life. A child can differentiate as to what may get them into more trouble with their parents.

Now we have a problem with the media. They can’t seem to make this distinction. And some politicians on the right and left obviously cannot make make it either.

TO BE CLEAR. There is no comparison of child molestation to faking an inappropriate photo. There is no comparison to pinching buttocks to child molestation. There is no comparison of feeling the side of a grown womans breast when taking a photo to child molestation. There is no comparison of squeezing a womans waist while during a side hug in celebration to CHILD MOLESTATION.

They are all wrong. But there is NO comparison.

I also put forth there is no comparison of a person who points out these differences with a person who supports a child molester.

End of fucking story.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Absolutely right.

Thank you.

[dhill926]

2. K and fucking R.....

[uponit7771]

3. K&R, the false equivalency shit is nerve racking !!

[Stargleamer]

4. Republicans abound in false equivalencies

It seems like 2nd nature to so many of them. We must all recognize and point out obvious differences

[certainot]

60. it's all enabled by 1500 radio stations we ignore

it applies to all major issues and news events and that's why they get to have both ways any time they want.

anyone who wonders why they get to have it both ways need only listen to 15 minutes of limbaugh making excuses for moore and trump while basically calling for the execution of franken clinton obama mueller comey and all the 'corrupt' deep state dems in the FBI, etc.

300 other blowhards reaching 20 mil a week on 1500 radio stations follow that lead

dems can talk about pointing out the differences and adding context and better messaging and framing all we want but it's basically useless.

imagine how long trump and clarence thomas would last if those 1500 radio stations were calling for THEM to resign.

it's the biggest political mistake in history.

it's so bad we even let at least 88 'liberal' university and many pro sports teams help several hundred of those stations attract advertisers to pay for their racism and global warming denial and public ed defunding!

[spooky3]

5. Agree. And thats assuming that the allegations are true.

Another big difference is in the power dynamics. If it’s your supervisor doing bad things, you have limited ability to escape, complain, or fight back without fear of retaliation. When the perp has no real power over you, you may be able to say “what the hell are you doing?” and get away (and maybe take other actions).

[bettyellen]

13. Yeah, someone tried to float how strangers at a bar are the same- not as bosses or powerful men

[Mme. Defarge]

6. Sing it, sister!

[hlthe2b]

7. Damn right. I've been trying to get this across all day.

I am very very upset by this. We may well have been hoisted on our own "best intentions/zero tolerance/no distinctions" petard. The feminist in me is very very very disturbed by that and the inevitable backlash that that will inevitably incite.

[boston bean]

12. I am not minimizing the issue but damn all women need to understand

That men have grown up in the same stew of toxic shit.

I am not attempting to excuse behavior. But damn we have to understand these dynamics. What franken did was wrong but his life does not deserve to be ruined. Remove him from committees and such. And don’t be afraid to state the obvious differences.

Hell I am afraid no man will survive this bar.

We need cultural change. And to have that we need to show some compassion and forgiveness for the run of the mill societal ills.

That doesn’t mean we forgive child molesters and elect them to congress.

[CincyDem]

14. Did you mean "no man of the democratic pursuation will survive this".

Cuz then I'm with you. Republicans...not so sure. I just don't see them calling each othe out when there's a nation destroying vote just around the corner. And with these guys, there will always be another destructive vote just around the corner.

[boston bean]

18. That is on them. I dont want to become them.

[SalviaBlue]

8. K&R

[GaryCnf]

9. The wisdom of this OP

is astounding.

As one whose anger and frustration often leads to absolutist positions, all I can say is thank you.

[yardwork]

10. None of the allegations against Franken have been proven.

I would like an investigation before he is condemned.

[SergeStorms]

41. I agree.

Unless Al is guilty of these things, and knows and admits to it, then he deserves his day in front of his accusers!

Is that not the basis of all law? No more of this anonymous shit, these are supposedly all grown women.

Right now I'm debating within myself to getting out of politics altogether. The right is galloping full bore into fascism, and the left doesn't want to offend anyone, and seemingly want to lose elections. I've had it. I'm in the twilight of my years and I don't want to cut short the ones I have remaining. Why fight for people not willing to stand up and fight with me? We're starting this entire "purity" shit all over again, and if that's what it's going to be, you can count me out.

[ancianita]

62. Please don't leave our arena here. You frame these issues perfectly and they need to go viral.

[smirkymonkey]

11. Hear, Hear!

[Voltaire2]

15. So women should just turn the other cheek?

WTF. The point isn't that Franken's groping problem is just as bad as Moore's attraction to underage teenage women. If anyone is making that argument, they should stop because it is stupid.

The Democratic Party needs to take a clear stand in support of women. That means that we should not be hypocrites when one of our politicians is revealed to be an abuser. We shouldn't tolerate pederasts or gropers.

Moore is unacceptable. Trump is unacceptable. Conyers is unacceptable. Franken is unacceptable. We cannot do anything about Moore or Trump other then defeat them at the ballot box. We can clean our own house. We have to clean our own house.

If we don't, if we are going to be hypocrites, then Moore and Trump and the rest of the Republican abusers all get a free pass. We will have completely muddied the water on this issue.

[boston bean]

17. No. I dont think I said that. Can you show me where you came up with that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Why wasn't there a hue and cry when John Conyers was forced to resign?

He vociferously denied and still denies the allegations. What is the difference between him and Al Franken ? I didn't see any outrage at his resignation.

[Lucky Luciano]

24. Unfortunately for Conyers, the accusations are much more credible.

Real settlements paid to women he had real power over.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. There was one settlement for $27,000.00.

He vociferously denies all wrongdoing. Why was there no due process for him ?

People are ignoring the elephant in the room.

[spooky3]

31. There were multiple identified accusers who worked

for him. Their stories seemed credible and reasonable. For example, they presumably shared political views so weren’t motivated to undermine him as a dirty trick. In Franken’s case, the charges are less serious; he had no power over the accusers; at least two were Republicans and others who claimed to be Dems wouldn’t identify themselves (despite his not having power) so their political motives couldn’t be investigated. He was accused of doing things in public with many other witnesses whereas abusers tend to act in private, etc.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/conyerss-accusers-described-sexual-advances-and-inappropriate-remarks/2017/12/05/2b4a49a0-d4a6-11e7-a986-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html?utm_term=.2293c66af066

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Credibility and reasonableness are jury questions.

In this instance the jurors would be his peers on the Ethics Committee and eventually the House, yet he was denied this opportunity, and there was no hue and cry.

Whether or not we believe he did it he was denied due process.

[spooky3]

35. The court of public opinion matters. Read the WaPo article

And you may find the confirmed facts disturbing.

He could have declined to retire.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. His actions were deplorable. I don't believe his denials. I believe his accusers.

To his credit he resigned rather than put his party through the ordeal of having to vote on his expulsion or censure. There's a lesson there.

[peggysue2]

43. No!

Sorry but it's not Franken who is putting the party through an ordeal, it's the Democratic Party/leadership that's putting itself through an ordeal because they're throwing all actions into the same bag.

If all acts of harassment are = to a sexual assault then the accusation of sexual assault is diminished, rendered toothless. Which coincidentally falls right into the the Republican playbook of false equivalencies. In that twisted world, Franken's boorish behavior of sloppy kisses and hands on waists, sliding to butts or suggestive photos at a USO performance does become = to the Trumpster's pussy comments and Moore's underage prowling accusations.

Boston Bean is correct. As adult men and women, we're perfectly capable of differentiating between an unwanted, creepy kiss and a hand reaching up our dresses, fingering our genitals. There is a difference. A big difference. As adults, we needn't be reduced to Middle School students, hauled into the disciplinarian's office for every infraction regardless of circumstances or context.

Of all the recent political accusations--Trump, Moore, Conyers, Farenthold--Franken is the only one to apologize, not trash the individual women and invite an ethics investigation into the matter. This is how grownups handle things, particularly if they have nothing monstrous to hide.

I hope that Senator Franken holds his ground and demands the ethics inquiry that he willingly invited.

Btw, there's nothing hypocritical in asking for a public airing or for Franken's Democratic colleagues agreeing to that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Nobody has a right to touch another person's buttocks or breasts without their permission.

Defending someone's right to touch another person's buttocks or breasts without his or her permission is not a hill I'm willing to die on.

Unwanted touching is not trivial.

Kant said when you judge the morality of an act you should ask yourself how you would feel if that act was made into a universal law. To say unwanted touching isn't so bad is to say everybody is entitled to a free feel.


And nobody is arguing Al Franken's misdeeds are nearly as egregious as the acts of Chump and Pedo Moore.

[peggysue2]

50. Never said it was trivial

I'm talking about differentiating between accusations. Franken was called on the behavior, he owned it and apologized while simultaneously requesting an ethics' inquiry.

I think this deserves a public airing, not a beheading.

Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. I empathize with Al Franken. Maybe in a different environment he keeps his job. (REDUX)

OTOH, he didn't touch me. It's not up to me to say whether or not I feel violated.

[BlueIdaho]

49. Amen

If an angry mob - elected or not - can short circuit any citizen’s rights to due process it lessens all our protections under the law.

[Ms. Toad]

29. He may have vociferously denied it -

but a settlement was paid out on his behalf. Presumably he consented to it. So even though he didn't expressly acknowledge it at the time, permitting a significant payment on your behalf is a little different than merely denying it.

[SergeStorms]

44. Don't look now....

but "Moore and Trump and the rest of the Republican abusers" are already getting a free pass. Just sayin'.

They deny, deny, deny. They never admit to anything, even in the presence of overwhelming evidence. I'm certainly not advocating that for Democrats, but not giving up without a fight would be nice for once.

[dflprincess]

16. Exactly right. nt

[LuckyCharms]

19. Well said. n/t

[elleng]

21. E-mail Al Franken

Some did and expressed support for investigations first; don't want him to be railroaded!
File under Congressional Ethics... Maybe we can send Al some encouragement...

https://www.franken.senate.gov/?p=email_al

[catchnrelease]

25. Done!

That's exactly what I said. I hope he will listen to us.

[klook]

38. Done - my message:

Mr. Franken:
As a supporter of women's equality, I find it disturbing that several people have attempted to smear your reputation with questionable claims of sexual misconduct. These claims distort and demean the reality of sexual assault that many women have suffered.

I urge you to remain in your Senate seat and let the Senate ethics investigation proceed. Do not cave in to irrational calls for your resignation.

Thanks for everything you've done and continue to do to stand up for ordinary Americans.

Sincerely,
klook

[Tbear]

22. Franken should resign as soon as Trump does

I emailed it to Al, it is free for him to use: I will resign as soon as Trump does.

[boston bean]

23. That is just not helpful and not what is going to happen.

That actually puts them kn the same level.

[rainy]

26. You said it perfectly. Agree 100%

[NRaleighLiberal]

28. very well done.

[brooklynite]

30. Al Franken isnt being punished

...but Party leadership recognizes that his reputation is irreparably damaged. Do you see the distinction.

[boston bean]

33. I see lots of distinctions. I thought that was obvious in the OP.

[treestar]

54. Look at Donalds

Reputation. You don’t need a good reputation to hold office.

[ancianita]

32. PERFECT.

[aikoaiko]

36. Good OP BostonBean

[pnwmom]

39. Since 14/16 women Senators signed the statement, I'm starting to wonder

if they possibly know more about what he might have done than we do.

[sir pball]

47. And we can and should wait for that.

I very VERY rarely post at all, let alone in busy threads (I just don't have the time, ugh) - but given the totality of the evidence against Sen. Franklin so far, I think there should be an Ethics investigation before anything else is decided. Just my $0.02.

[Jakes Progress]

48. Not according to Senator Hirono.

On Rachel's show, when asked why she or the others decided now to do this, she said that it was, well, you know, just time. I mean there were accusations from some people. Then Gellibrand beat the all to the email and press time, so they all rushed out their own press releases.

Spineless.

[kcr]

53. Yep

They're cowards. Remember ACORN. You can't read anything into what they do.

[pnwmom]

59. She's not contradicting the idea. We don't know why she thinks it's time, do we? n/t

[Jakes Progress]

67. If we don't know

why do you put motives and reasons to her decision. I just go by her words - the ones she said out loud and not in my head.

You are letting the propaganda get to you.

[uponit7771]

65. Damn fuckin dumb asss'

[LenaBaby61]

57. "If they possibly know more about what he might have done than we do."

IF they do, none of them is saying that they do.

IF Franken was investigated and the evidence points to him sexually violating his accussers, that's a whole other story.

But, from what I've read from these anonymous women, and from the women in the Senate telling Franken to step aside, I've seen nothing that rises to sexual assault, and certainly nothing rising to what pussy-grabber and Mall Rat Moore did.

[mr_lebowski]

58. I would agree if I hadn't seen first hand how spineless our Dems in Congress can be ...

And that's NOT a 'woman' thing, the men are equally if not MORE guilty (except for ... ya know ... well ... Al Franken) ... I know it's *logically* erroneous to extrapolate in this manner, but I can't help it. I've seen it too many times, in too many situations.

NORMALLY, without that baggage in my own head, I'd be inclined to agree. But not with (most) Congressional Dems these days.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet a considerable sum that as we speak, Bannon has an all-out phone/mail/email campaign going on behind the scenes, flooding our congresscritters (esp. our good ladies) with messages from SUPPOSED Democratic constituents ... demanding Franken's ouster. When really it's f***ing republicans calling, pretending to be Dems.

In fact, I expect nothing less outta that bunch.

And if so ... welp, it seems to be working a treat.

[Jakes Progress]

68. Every post on DU against Al

means another round at bannon's bar.

They are reading this and seeing their money well spent.

I wish they were spiritual and religious people, rather than just claiming to be so that they could be told and know that they are going to hell.

[snort]

40. Its pretty much all or nothing.

Photos from here on out should be at arms length and only in the company of unbiased witnesses, those of the highest repute.

I'm kidding by the way. I feel the need to point that out. For some reason.

Can I hear more on this clearly never taken as exaggeration technique of "sticking ones tongue down anothers throat"? Gene Simmons available?

How about if the Democratic party only runs candidates of unquestionable moral standard, such as a Priest or General? Hmm, perhaps not.

[Kimchijeon]

42. Yep. I agree

And it really doesn't help that the mainstream corporate media talking heads are filling the airwaves with this crap (false equivalency) trying to run Franken out and force him to resign.

[SunSeeker]

45. K & R

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. Ah...just looking at threads you can see the opposing

Statement gets all the you are wrong feedback

[NoMoreRepugs]

55. Is it possible that Dems purity test going forward to

screen candidates who weren't home schooled or had a drink in college or worked with members of the opposite sex might not be able to find anyone worthy?

Just asking ....

[Morris64]

56. A mistake

is an act in the course of doing the right thing. It’s easy to dismiss a “mistake” as an accident. A bad decision is another thing and more appropriately describes the pattern of behavior seen in these reports.

[boston bean]

61. No it it not.

mistake
[mi-steyk]
noun
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.

[Morris64]

66. Id take it easy on the well actually type of posts if youre not going to proofread your own.

The definition I gave is based on ethics training I have attended. The problem is not necessarily the dictionary definition of “mistake.” The problem is the connotation. It is often used to describe an accident. Someone having a pattern of making unwanted advances and inappropriate touching is hardly an accident.

To imply that these incidents are accidents is a dismissive slap in the face to victims of these actions everywhere.

These are my opinions in the context of these stories. I certainly respect other viewpoints, but I feel strongly about this.

[LanternWaste]

63. Proportional response and degrees of difference

Proportional response and degrees of difference are too complex for the simplistic perspective that demands the hobgoblin of little minds.

You are right.

[rock]

64. BB, you've never been more right!