Disturbing

[angrychair]

I am not saying Franken is guilty or innocent

The bravado and venom with which so many here disregard the accusers of Franken is unsettling.

Many did the same with Conyers when his victims came forward but it is now clear that he is guilty of at least some of those accusations.

Regardless of our personal feelings, it is wrong to impugn these women, now over 6 different people, just because we don’t like what they say or don’t want to believe it.

As a victim of molestation as a child, even I can feel my anxiety level rise a little at the thought of being put in the position these women are in, from the Moore accusers to the Franken accusers.
Yes, there are fake accusations all the time, rarely from multiple people.
We cannot in one moment be so willing to force Moore out of the Senate race and in the next demand that Franken stay in the Senate.
It drips of hypocrisy and partisanship.

I don’t have the answers but please, please, take into consideration that there are actual victims out here, possibly even the Franken accusers, so in your rush to defend Franken remember that there are real people that lived through very real abuse and seeing OP after OP that seems to attack or impugn victims is unsettling to say the least.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. Well said.

In before the slams and accusations.

[lame54]

2. Haven't heard much defense of Conyers - this is...

A false equivalency

[angrychair]

4. I would go back and look again

I saw it clear as day.

[kcr]

11. Wow, You're right! Look at all the angry posts about Conyers resigning.

[still_one]

13. You know why, because there wasn't. In fact just the oppostie occurred. No one spoke when Pelosi

asked for Conyer's resignation

The reason why is because there was a legal proceeding, and all the EVIDENCE demonstrated Conyers was guilty accused of harassment

Franken has NOT been allowed to defend himself, just accused. Franken has called for an ethics investigation on himself. Roy Moore hasn't. Donald trump wants Mueller to stop his investigation

Does anyone see what the difference is in these separate instances

[hlthe2b]

20. Exactly... this

[LenaBaby61]

22. Does anyone see what the difference is in these separate instances.

Yes, I do.

It's frightening to think that IF someone wants to anonymously accuse ANY Dem of sexual assault or of any allegation because they're put up to it or maybe that person's holding a grudge against the person they're accusing of whatever sexual crime, Dems will more than likely show the accused the door. NO investigations into anything. NO NOTHING. Just roll over. I mean NO investigations? NO NOTHING?

Meanwhile, thuglicans won't even lift a finger to investigate any one of their folks whose accused of sexual assault etc. Look at how long David Diaper Man Vitter hung around.

But then again, thuglicans usually get to stick around/decide when they'll resign--that's IF they resign. Even POS and former tRumputin supporter Ralph Shorty of Oklahoma who plead guilty of running a child sex trafficking ring had a trial. I don't think he was even asked to step down by thuglicans, and this POS was running a child sex trafficking ring, and slept with his business partners son because the son was raising college tuition money if I recall correctly. I guess Dems think what Franken was accused of is worse than or equal to Shorty's child sex trafficking

Again, Shorty even had a trial.

[yallerdawg]

33. Now we just forget about the picture?

Franken did that - indisputably - and her ax to grind or political persuasion does not change this first allegation which he admitted to and apologized for.

Then the next picture. Franken apologized again.

Franken said he wanted to be a better man. Is that where it ends for us?

[Egnever]

40. Got it so when respect is given to the womans feelings no matter how ludicrous

It is an excuse to condemn you. Awesome message there.

Franken has acted exactly as we supposedly want people to act when faced with these things and he is being crucified for it with not so much as a hearing.

Fuck that!

Clearly he would have been much better off if he said these women are freaking nuts!

[Alice11111]

37. You are spot on! The fact that Dems don't see the False

Equivalencies is de ja vu. They are comparing him to Roy Moore, and Dems are saying we must be consistent.

[Kimchijeon]

42. It really is maddening, isn't it?? There's just no comparison there

try as hard as they wish.

[Alice11111]

44. Al Franken, of all people, to decide to go batshit crazy, and

ALL stand together against, WITHOUT allowing him an investigation. We keep crossing opinion paths.
Why didn't they get this worked up over the tax bill, and let his investigation play out. I think he should have given himself a few days to consider, but they are demanding blood now.

[LakeArenal]

3. Exactly why most want an ethics investigation.

[SHRED]

16. Exactly

[VMA131Marine]

5. Dilly! Dilly!

Well said! I'm so sorry about what you had to go through.

[NCTraveler]

6. Thank you for sharing this.

I have wanted to share similar sentiments. I have been limiting my comments as I’m a bit taken back at what some really good people here are saying. I have written and erased an op three times. I was having trouble stringing my thoughts together in a way that would be acceptable as a conversation starter. What you state is a big portion of what I wanted to share.

Thank you.

[Bleacher Creature]

41. I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

I've been feeling more and more uncomfortable reading the posts here today. Bob Casey made the point today that you can choose to believe the women only when its convenient. I just don't understand why people don't get that.

It sucks that people like Franken have to go, but assholes like Trump and Moore remain. But that's because we as a party don't tolerate that kind of behavior, while Republicans do. Or at least that's the way it used to work.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

7. Yes, everyone knows anonymous accusers are the moral foundation our democracy! Nm

[kcr]

8. I'm sorry. But it's also wrong to insinuate things from arguments people are making

It doesn't even seem to occur to many that some of those who are against Franken resigning may be victims themselves. I wonder why?

The argument isn't that he's Franken and he's a Dem so that's why we must defend him and not believe the women. Plenty of Dems on our side have been called to account in the past, even recently. We do not knowingly elect and refuse to punish sexual predators the way the GOP does. I resent the implication that because some of us note the difference with the Franken accusations that we're hypocrites and the only reason we're defending him is we're Democrats. It isn't right to demand that he give up the right to defend himself, especially not to acquiesce to the GOPs demands as if they're the arbiters of our morality. The ones who knowingly elected Trump! That's ludicrous.

[spooky3]

10. Thank you. I am one of them, though I

Won’t detail the incidents here.

I agree with your post. Let the investigation play out.

[still_one]

15. I think that is all reasonable people are asking for

[LenaBaby61]

14. TOTALLY AGREE...

With your post.

I guess anyone making accusations should be believed. NO investigation necessary?

Emmit Till sure would disagree with this line of thinking.

[AJT]

17. I was also a victim as a child, and I agree that the investigation should play out.

[Alice11111]

39. Similar here. I have represented many victims, but this is

a railroad of Sen Franken. My daughter was a child victim. Like every woman, it takes a lot of fingers to count the adult sexual harassment incidents. I never counted someone putting his arm around my waist for a photo.

[hlthe2b]

21. Indeed. I hope others will read your post KCR

[angrychair]

25. Bizarre

I would humbly suggest you read comments posted by many, just today. Many have constructed huge conspiracies that they are sure will engulf other Democrats if forcing Franken out is allowed to happen.

I’ve seen many posts that leave little to the imagination that these women are everything from republican plants to just simply liars.

Also, back in the beginning of the Conyers situation, when the first accusers came forward, there were many posts that questioned the integrity of the women and the accusations.

I am not going to call out members because I gain nothing from that. No one here is my enemy. We want the same thing and I just think we should be a lot more measured and thoughtful of how we approach it.

[kcr]

31. It isn't measured and thoughtful to ascribe motivations to people, regardless of what you've read.

I stand by everything I've posted. We don't knowingly elect predators and when it comes out that they are, we boot them. Franken is different, whatever you've seen on DU. The fact is the accusers are almost all Trump supporters and most of them are anonymous. If you personally don't find that relevant, that's perfectly reasonable. But it's also reasonable for others to think that's not a coincidence. But the fact that the night before the first accuser came forward, Roger Stone tweeted that this was going to happen is suspicious and it is also perfectly reasonable to find that so, and numerous holes have been found in her story. All the others happen to be at photo ops in front of lots of people, with most of them anonymous. This isn't the pattern of most other accused. It's prudent to give him the investigation he called for from the getgo.

[Ferrets are Cool]

9. two words for you. Anon accusers

[SHRED]

18. Yup. No comparison.

Let the Ethics Committee investigation play out.

[Kirk Lover]

12. So you are saying the Franken victims have lived through abuse? I think you have lived through

abuse.

[greeny2323]

19. No

Asking for an investigation or for due process is not impugning anyone. It's the correct and moral thing to do.

[Ms. Toad]

23. Thank you.

I have much of the same feelings.

I read the slut-shaming of Tweedon, and the accusations of the police ring in my ears - their express assumptions that, because I attended a nearby liberal college, I invited the rape.

I read the trashing of anonymous accusers, and I remember all of the young women I spent hours with on the phone - carefullly making sure not to gather enough information that I would have to make a report to child services, because they could not fathom publicly accusing their abuser, but desperately needed someone to listen and believe them.

I read the skepticism about long delays for reporting, and I hear my parents' disbelief about abuse I experienced as a child - but delayed reporting out of shame.

Whether you believe these particular accusers or not, the use of classic rape denial tactics against the accusers helps perpetuate abuse because already fragile survivors of sexual abuse or rape are going to be far less willing to step into this firestorm.

[Gravitycollapse]

27. +1

[Fred Sanders]

28. Is Franken accused of rape or something far far more minor?

[Ms. Toad]

32. Obviously something much more minor -

and FWIW even though I believe his accusers, I don't think he should resign.

But none of that changes the shameful tactics that are being used, especially on DU, against the accusers.

[angrychair]

35. Thank you for what you do

I am a male and was abused by a male babysitter when I was 3 years old and again by a friend’s older sister when I was 9. I’ve long since come to terms with it...at least this week. I actually managed to stuff it back in a corner until the last several weeks and the thoughts and feelings rise up randomly as a sense of anxiety or fear, it’s hard to put a word to it. I actually wrote that sentence three times and almost vomited in the process. I really wish I could make it go away but I cannot. I live with it as best I can.
I am perfectly fine with Franken getting his “day in court” but I just want it done with due consideration for the very real victims out here in the real world.

[SHRED]

24. So let's ignore...

...all the women who currently work for Franken and all those in the past, who have come forward supporting him?

[Ms. Toad]

30. In short, yes.

The fact that he didn't harass those women has absolutely nothing to do with whether he did harass the women who are accusing him.

Harassment is not something that one does to everyone, or not at all. In fact, rapists are especially good at selecting victims who will not fight back or report - and many friends of people who have committed henious assaults are absolutely shocked when they discover the truth becuase it seems so out of character with the person they know.

[kcr]

34. He's not accused of rape

You knew that, right? Speaking of shameful tactics.

[yallerdawg]

36. Same argument Moore supporters are making.

"Look at all the women who say he never did anything inappropriate."

I don't want to be like them.

We cannot have zero tolerance by political affiliation (anymore).

[BootinUp]

26. Seems like all of Franken accusers r into

Politics and r claiming bad behavior that is barely objectionable. Sorry.

[Jarqui]

29. I agree on the shaming part but it has to cut both ways

Al Franken seems on the precipice of the shame of resigning.

If he's guilty, I have zero problem.
If he's not guilty, I have a big problem

I'd like more information on the allegations.
I've tried to review them objectively (as I can given I like Al) but i'm left feeling the need for more
definitive evidence. I worry whether the GOP is smearing him.

I'm not asking any more for Al than is being asked for his accusers

[OilemFirchen]

38. That's why I believed the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

Because there were so many of them, which rarely happens.

because so many people... ya know...

[Kimchijeon]

43. Bottom line, Franken himself asked for an investigation

And suddenly he's railroaded and told he must resign, based on flimsy anonymous accusations, as well as "he put his arm around my waist for a photo and squeezed and it made me uncomfy" - this is not even something someone would get taken to court for, let alone be fired or have to resign.

An investigation would uncover how manufactured and transparent the whole thing is. Now, now, we can't have that = "oh he must resign, resign, oh heavens to betsy"

I think it only fair to say yes, these are horseshit accusations. To compare these "accusers" to real victims is false equivalency and I think most of us here comprehend that.

The bullshit lynch mob mentality and railroading of Franken, if successful, is pretty much the nail in the coffin for the Dems, in the eyes of many lifelong voters and donors.

Folks who are on their mighty high horses about this would do real fuckin' well to keep that in mind, unless they really only care about the corporate bankrolls after all and not us meager hoi polloi you know... the shmucks who voted for their asses. And yes, we have the ability for critical thinking, yes trolling is a thing, and yes, this is bullshit. Multiple "he touched me or hugged me with a squeezy squeeze" stories are easily had. And yes, people do willingly like to make claims to hop on a bandwagon, imagine that. It is part of human behavior.

We allowed a known criminal to get elected as President, so what else can I say. I guess we deserve what we get? At least I'm grateful to have somewhere to rant about it a little online. (oh, at least for now. Until net neutrality's killed!) LOL

I agree, there are real people who lived through REAL abuse and this whole pretending or imagining that Franken's accusers "suffered" anything like a real abuse victim is not just unsettling, it is insulting, and a false equivalency. At the most, the most, someone felt annoyed that he gave 'em a squeezy hand around the waist? C'mon, get a fuckin' grip. That does insult me, and anyone else who has actually suffered real abuse or assault.

So it's no wonder that many are dismissive of the Franken accusers/accusations. It's because we can pretty much suss it out to be 99% horseshit, that's why!