What did Franken do

[KT2000]

to start the stampede for his resignation?
There was Tweeden who it appears was part of an entertainment group where Franken and Tweeden both acted out.
There was a woman who had her picture taken with Franken and he put his hand on her buttocks.
There was a woman who had her picture taken with Franken and he put his hand around her waist and pinched her waist twice.

What else is there? Is he a rapist? predator? pedophile?
Unless there is a horrible event we don't know about that the senators do, I don't get this. What we know about does not rise to abusive behavior or his removal from office. How far is all of this going to go if we can't discern the differences between unwanted flirty behavior and predatory behavior.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. It's not what he did. It's that the Democrats in the Senate

are making him the sacrificial lamb for their new zero-tolerance policy, which apparently applies only to other Democrats.

[unitedwethrive]

12. Don't they understand that a zero tolerance policy opens them all up to attacks?

They need to have an internal (Democratic Party) evaluation, and then send all allegations to the ethics committee of the appropriate chamber. At least going through regular evaluation and procedure will make the GOP think twice about giving themselves more work.

[delisen]

61. It is also hypocrisy -esp those who oppose zero tolerance

in criminal justice.

[doc03]

29. That's it it is all a political calculation, the Democrats think sacrificing

our own will give them something to campaign on next year. Why doesn't these 20 something Democratic Senators say Trump should resign. If Roy Moore gets elected they won't have the spine to appose him either. SAD

[avebury]

56. They find that they experience blowback if their

actions result in liberals staying home next year and not getting out the vote.

I swear that Democrats continually act as their own worse enemies.

[dflprincess]

2. What did he do?

Went after Jeff Sessions for one thing and that's whast started the attsck. The Democrats are just doing the Republicans' dirty work because they never learn.

[Jimbo101]

3. The only thing I can think of that Franken did was ,...

to (rightfully) call Jeff Sessions a liar in an open Senate Hearing

(and then Roger Stone went to work) < don't know that for a fact - but it has all the trademarks of a hatchet job.

[FuzzyRabbit]

9. Roger Stone choreographed the whole thing.

Remember he tweeted, twice, the day before the first accuser went public, that Al Franken was going down because of sexual misconduct.

[orleans]

34. ??

Link to tweet

[TDale313]

4. I dont quite get it, either.

I see a couple of possibilities. (Or a mixture of both)

1) There is more out there than we know, and the Senators coming out for Franken’s resignation know it.

2) Either because they feel it’s genuinely right or politically wise or both, Dems want to be seen as having a zero-tolerance policy for sexual harassment/abuse and calling for Franken’s resignation supports that.

[ollie10]

58. So when does zero tolerance apply to Republicans?

Let's be clear on two things:

1) the lynch mob Senators are NOT calling on Trump to resign or any Republican. You know, don't want to hurt their precious little feelings......

2) some of them are using this to score political points as presidential wannabees for 2020.

[delisen]

59. Political expedient maybe-just seeing 2018 as savior year

and sacrificing principles to get the newly emerged demographic of republican women against sexual harassment.

Unfortunately, Mitch NcConnell may well outsmart us again.

Whomever may be appointed by Gov Dayton may be incredibly pure put we have seen the innocent Democrat successfully skewered before......

A resignation by Franken equals opportunity for Evil, and the evil will give it everything they have.

[TDale313]

64. Not sure I agree that being against sexual harassment

Is sacrificing principles.

[delisen]

65. The Dem principle I was referring to: Due Process

I don't believe in sacrificing due process. One can be against sexual harassment and for due process.

[Gravitycollapse]

5. There is no difference between "unwanted flirtation" and predatory behavior.

Predatory behavior can exist in various forms and severities. Just because a serial rapist is defined as a predator does not mean a man who feels he can touch and harass women isn't also a predator.

The whole discourse on "flirtation" in here makes me suspicious of what people seem to think constitutes safe, respectful interpersonal conduct.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. The issue isn't whether the behavior is acceptable; it's what the penalty should be.

I think everyone agrees that nobody should be touched in ways they haven't consented to. But there is still a continuum of the severity or criminality of unconsented touching. Calling a quick pat on the butt of an adult acquaintance the equivalent of the violent rape of a child ignores the reality of that continuum. In criminal law, penalties vary greatly with the severity of the crime; should we not recognize this continuum in other contexts? We can acknowledge butt-patting is wrong and inappropriate, but what should the career consequences be? The same as the consequences for raping an employee?

[Gravitycollapse]

7. Resigning from office isn't ending his life. We aren't throwing him in prison.

That's the continuum you speak of so glowingly.

We aren't calling for him to be executed. We want him out of office.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. We DO NOT want him out of office. I am a Minnesota resident,

I voted for him and I'll vote for him again if he runs again. I don't want my vote taken away from me just because some Senators think they can shame the GOP by throwing one of the best senators this state has ever had under the Big Liberal Bus of Self-Righteous Virtue. The GOP is past shaming and the only result of hounding Franken out of the senate is the loss of a very effective progressive senator and the gain of exactly nothing. Democrats are masters at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Gravitycollapse]

11. Are you even remotely concerned at all for the women who have accused Franken?

Or is this really only about your vote?

[Madam Mossfern]

13. Are you concerned about women

and legislation that will harm them when Republicans have more control? Are you speaking out against Roy Moore?
Have you? As far as all the women, we really don't know who they are, do we?

[Gravitycollapse]

15. Yeah, I've definitely spoken out against Roy Moore.

Did you honestly think the answer to that question would be no? Get real.

[Madam Mossfern]

19. No, I didn't think that your answer would be no

Sorry for the snakiness. I'm a woman and I'm a survivor - that being said, I don't believe accusations merely because they were made by women against men. There has been nothing that I've seen that would have me believe that Franken should step down.

Think of it my way, being a rape victim. Every time a woman falsely accuses someone of rape makes it more difficult for real rape victims to be believed. So far there has been no hearing, no proof that Franken is a sexual predator. He shouldn't be a sacrificial lamb for this cause. His resignation will not make a difference to the real perpetrators and the loss of his presence in Congress will be devastating.

[jakesblues]

43. Thanks for this. I think you have made the argument but I fear the momentum may push him out.

Hoping his argument is as good as yours and he gets his day. He is one of the best and sorely needed.

[uponit7771]

49. +1

[OhioBlue]

17. Exactly! His alledged offenses are on a completely different level than alledged offenses

by others. Have any of you ever patted a teammate's butt? Touched someone's waist when you put your arm around them? Touched someone's boob by accident? This is just veering off into insanity that we are counting all of these allegations against Franken as sexual misconduct an on par with what Moore and Trump have been accused of. And our Dem Senators are willing to throw their colleague under the bus for what? He is an ally in our fight FOR Women's rights, the CHIP bill, DACA, Healthcare, sane fiscal policy, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, etc. And fighting GOP collusion with Russia, reckless tax cuts, global warming.... I mean, My God, the list is endless and we're just going to roll over and quit. A Dem Gov can appoint his seat but there will still be a special election and we could lose a Dem seat all together because Minnesota voters get pissed.

And for everyone saying this feels like Acorn - I agree.

[dhol82]

27. Well said!

[uponit7771]

50. +1, I pray he doesn't resign seeing the huge amount of conflation

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. I believe he is entitled to the ethics investigation he requested.

I do not believe that anonymous complaints should be given much credence, and I also believe Leeann Tweeden's complaint is suspect because it was aided and abetted by Roger Stone and Sean Hannity. I think women's complaints should be taken seriously but they should be subjected to scrutiny just as much as any other allegation of wrongdoing. I do not believe anyone should be driven from office on the basis of completely unscrutinized allegations, which is why the investigation should go forward. If the investigation substantiates a pattern of wrongdoing, then there should be some consequences, to be determined by the Senate. Otherwise, yes, my vote is important. He is effectively the employee of the voters of Minnesota, and as it stands right now, nobody gets to "fire" him but us.

[KT2000]

21. not Tweeden

not sure about any others. This effort is being used to take down Franken, as orchestrated by Roger Stone. I want more background on the women.

[orleans]

36. then there's this:

Link to tweet

[orleans]

37. and this

Link to tweet

[uponit7771]

48. Of course but I'm concerned with due process also one doesn't override the other

[JeaneRaye]

25. And we are???

I don't want him out of office! Who is this "We" of whom you speak?

[Gravitycollapse]

26. About 50% of Democratic voters...

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/22/al-franken-senate-resign-poll-257554

[JeaneRaye]

45. Politico? Really?

You are citing a poll from a right leaning website. That poll probably includes a lot of right wingers. I don't care what their opinion of Al Franken is. Ask those same people how they feel about Roy Moore or Donald Trump and they would probably would totally support them. Give me a poll that says 50% of Democratic voters want him to resign and maybe I'll give it some credence. Until then, be careful of your sources.

[Collimator]

39. "We want him out of office"?!

Who is this "we" that you speak of? The majority of people that I hear from want him to remain a pain in the Republicans' butts. I would also like to see him stand no closer than two feet from people during any future photo opts, but that's for his sake.

The butts and side-boobs and waists of America's womenfolk are not in any ongoing danger from Al Franken "rapaciousness" should he remain in office.

Our reproductive rights and the health of our children are in danger from rapacious Republicans.

Furthermore, while "we" aren't calling for him to be executed, you don't seem to object to seeing his character assassinated.

[Gravitycollapse]

40. Half of Democratic voters want him gone...

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/22/al-franken-senate-resign-poll-257554

[uponit7771]

51. Yeah, you forgot this little part "66 percent of voters said the ethics panel should probe Frankens

... actions"

[LakeVermilion]

55. Isn't it Minnesota's choice?

It really doesn't matter what the national party wants.

As far as I'm concerned, he can become an independent like Sanders.

[uponit7771]

47. To whom? thx in advance

[KT2000]

18. I guess that should be part

of the discussion. I personally believe there is a difference and context is important. I am about the same age as Franken so I can see where he thought when he was having a picture taken with someone who asked, he would see his behavior as cute and not predatory. As we go through this change, I am sure he is capable of changing his behavior. What is the intent - Surely we can see the differences.

In the meantime, politicians should not pose for photos with constituents.

[Gravitycollapse]

20. Or, you know, they could pose for photos and not inappropriately grab women...

Or make rude sexual gestures toward them while they're sleeping.

I'm much younger than you. Maybe age and generation is a factor here. From my young perspective, I possess little sympathy for the "he's just from a different time" argument. If that is the case, then older men who can't keep their hands to themselves should settle into retirement and let younger generations take the reigns. It's not like not touching women inappropriately just became this novel idea last week.

[KT2000]

22. they would have to show their hands

and keep light between each person to make sure there is no inappropriate touching otherwise anything can be said.

Older men are capable of learning and changing. Franken, being more intelligent than most is capable of that.

You can be sure that changes will occur over the lifetime of younger people as well.

[Gravitycollapse]

24. And there's the problem. We don't trust women to not lie.

That's basically what you've implied by arguing that it must be visible that men aren't touching someone inappropriately. As if there's some unspoken movement of women out to falsely accuse men.

This is a cultural problem that we really need to get over. Women overwhelmingly tell the truth when they make accusations of harassment and assault. We need to start believing them instead of getting paranoid and defensive when they make accusations against people we like.

[dhol82]

30. You know, you cant have it both ways

If anybody stands too close they can be accused of anything.
I think, by your standards, all public figures should not be able to take pictures with fans or constituents. Much too much opportunity for hanky panky on all sides.
If all women tell the truth then we must not put them into situations where anything at all possible might be misconstrued.
Right?

[KT2000]

38. Tweeden lied

[delisen]

60. Are those who state that accusation equals guilt secret predators?

We know from psychology and the concept of psychological projection that those who are quick to judge others
may be Quilty of the same behaviors.

[fairfaxvadem]

8. Been wondering same thing...

Working in DC, this place leaks like a sieve unless you’re Robert Mueller. Total Peyton Place here. If there is worse to come, hard to believe it’s not in the press yet or rumored around the Hill. Possible, but not how this town usually operates. Gossip is the coin of the realm in these parts.

We all operate within our own gray space. Some of us have a larger gray space than others. I certainly don’t want any man or woman trying to dictate how any of us should feel from one experience to another. My shrug-off of certain behavior because I don’t think it’s any big deal, well, another woman may not agree. Fair enough. I have a colleague who is not as shrug-off’y as I am and we agree to disagree. I’ve called out enough men over the years so I know what my own boundaries are. As should we all. And being treated badly isn’t confined to sexual harassment. There are many variations of assholery out there.

So, no, I’m personally not on the fainting couch over Senator Franken at this point. Others are.

I still want to know how Roger Stone knew it was Franken’s “time in the barrel.” I haven’t seen anything on that little bit in a while...

[dhol82]

33. Good question.

[lostnfound]

16. He calls for higher taxes on billionaires...

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/06/22/al-franken-republicans-wont-health-care-bill-thinly-disguised-tax-cut-billionaires.html

He’s been a leader for progressives and hard hitting.

He is smart as hell.

[fleabiscuit]

23. Eight victims.

Last time.

[doc03]

32. How many are anonymous? nt

[uponit7771]

53. Due process

[ProfessorPlum]

62. how many are Russians? how many are Roger Stone?

[YOHABLO]

28. How many women have come forward about Donald Trump? I'll wait.

[L. Coyote]

31. So, you have convicted him of the accusations? Maybe wait until he speaks first.

[jakesblues]

44. HaHaHa

Now that's funny. He stands accused of forcible rape of a 14 year old. His pal,Epstein is still doing time for similar crimes. He had deep pockets and still could not get out of the case - cases he faced. Many have come forward since with credible cases against the serial monster. Watch the tape on Access Hollywood (ABC) and listen to what he says. This is pointless. Everyone who ever knew him would tell you the kind of man he is. I hope he gets his day,many of them in a court of law.

[L. Coyote]

46. "What did Franken do?" is the topic. See above OP.

[Kimchijeon]

35. exactly- at the worst

maybe unwanted flirty behavior. Which I think all of us as human beings have probably been on either end of. It's ludicrous false equivalency as many have said. A complete unwarranted knee-jerk reaction, just like the fascists were hoping for.

[Duppers]

41. Exactly! Dems are playing into the wingers hands.

And I expect some trolls are altering on these posts.

[uponit7771]

54. +1, he deserves due process not pile ons

[wisteria]

42. Zero tolerance, with Franken as a scapegoat goat to prove the point.

I guess the party will have a purity test for all candidates now. And, those who are there now, better watch their backs. The Republicans could have another whole line up of women and men claiming sexual misconduct against Democrats. Nice strategy Dems.

[MoonRiver]

52. Also, I'm not sure that a lot of those accusations happened.

Franken deserves a Senate ethics hearing, during which the accusers come forward publically. Anonymous does not work for me.

[Shrek]

57. A reporter was talking about this on NPR earlier today

According to the reporter a number of Democratic senators (women, mostly) were frustrated but were giving him "space" to let the process play out. Apparently they collectively agreed to begin pressing for a resignation if any further accusers came forward. When that happened yesterday it triggered the pre-arranged plan.

[ProfessorPlum]

63. great plan

especially the part about allowing anonymous accusers, who might be Russians, who might be Roger Stone in disguise, who might be lying, who describe sexual harassment as something that happens right out in the open in front of cameras and crowds of people, to determine their actions.