General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI am willing to believe that Franken might be guilty of highly inappropriate behavior with women
I am willing to accept that if he is guilty of highly inappropriate behavior with women that he should leave the Senate. I am even wiling to accept that, in the realm of politics, the standard for asking for someone to resign, either from their office or their candidacy for office, is not as strict as the criminal standard for a conviction; guilt beyond any reasonable doubt. A preponderance of the evidence could suffice.
What I am not willing to accept though is ending someone's political career based on a small handful of anonymous allegations of sexual impropriety that have not been either thoroughly vetted or formally investigated. From what I can tell the women who have publicly and openly made allegations against Frankel have not brought forward charges serious enough to warrant his immediate removal from elected office. An investigation, yes. Summary removal, no. But now it seems to have become a mere numbers count, with automatic removal from office triggered once some tipping point of allegations is reached.
In many cases women have good reason to be hesitant to allow their identify to become known to the public when they lodge complaints against powerful men. I understand that, but I feel that the Washington Post and NY Times have shown us all how that can and should be handled. Those media outfits did not print stories of that sort without first engaging in extensive background research to corroborate the statements of the women making allegations - from contemporary sources who were told about the alleged serious incidents at the times. In fact, it was by doing exactly that that the Washington Post just busted a woman who tried to entrap the newspaper into false reporting that would have discredited their overall efforts in this area. That is why the charges against Judge Moore are so damning - not just the nature of the allegations themselves (which as he claims could have been a political hit job) but the thorough sourcing for them and the corroborating evidence that establishes the likelihood that Moore was guilty as charged.
There may be more about the Franken story that some Democrats in Congress know about that we in the mere public do not. If so, they were obligated to reveal the extent of their concerns, and the basis for it, to the voters who elected Franken to office before calling on him to resign. To call this means for ending a political career a slippery slope is a huge understatement. It is a trap door that can be triggered at any time against any elected official in order to get an adversary out of the political way.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Zoonart
(11,869 posts)called for an inquiry. I believe he should get one.
I thought this country was innocent until proven guilty, not guilty with no chance to defend yourself at all. But, that's the way Franken is being treated.
ollie10
(2,091 posts)dsc
(52,162 posts)mn9driver
(4,426 posts)This is a recipe for disaster. If Franken can be run out of town this way, ANY democrat can be.
But Republican voters and leadership will not apply the same standards to their own. Anyone who thinks they will is a fool. Apparently the Democratic Party leadership are exactly that-fools.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)And I am profoundly disappointed....geeezzuss thats an understatement.
Texin
(2,596 posts)They will use this over and over in future now that they know how willing the Dems are willing to toss their own overboard. If Franken were some back bencher, so to speak, I might feel differently about this or at minimum, a little less vehemently. But Franken in the past six months or so has been one of the most effective speakers within the party against Shitler. Anyone else now is going to be fair game and that includes the likes of Bernie Sanders. Right now as far as I can tell everyone within the Democratic party whether a senator or a congress man or woman has got a big target on their backs. It's open season on them now.
Demit
(11,238 posts)and their ratfucker supporters. Here's how you do it, these actions say, and you can do it any time and to anybody.
Dave Starsky
(5,914 posts)These same tactics don't appear to work on Republicans.
Texin
(2,596 posts)It was employed by Rove against McCain and before that Donald Segretti during the Nixon years and he learned from the master of the game, although I've forgotten the man's last name. BTW, Segretti and his crew actually called the tactics "ratfucking".
Demit
(11,238 posts)Averell Harriman's wife Marie used it in the 1950s when her husband was running for reelection (I think that's when it was). She said it in reference to politicos maneuvering against him who "gave Ave a real Philadelphia rat fucking."
Remember the ladies!
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Sen. Franken has said that he will be making an announcement about his political future tomorrow. The right thing is for him to resign, Sanders, I-Vt., who ran for president as a Democrat in the 2016 elections, said in a statement issued Wednesday afternoon.
https://forward.com/fast-forward/389370/bernie-sanders-al-franken-resigning-is-the-right-thing-to-do/
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Sad as it is to say, I hope they all know about some as yet to drop shoes regarding Franken's behavior that the rest of us will soon become aware of. If that is the case, their stand in acceptable - maybe even commendable, for acting with decisiveness regarding unacceptable behavior. It would be sad if that is true, because that would mean there are more unnamed victims out there. And it would be sad to deal with the truth if Franken is guilty of much more than has been established to date.
A lot depends on what Al Franken himself now has to say, and whether there is further not yet revealed evidence against him
But if what we now see is all they have against Franken without any investigation, than Bernie is just as wrong as the rest of them.
Demit
(11,238 posts)need judges. We could all just decide who we think is guilty. Save a lot on salaries.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Decisiveness regarding facts only, not mere allegations.
mn9driver
(4,426 posts)The rest of us lose an extremely intelligent and aggressive Senator who has been a consistent thorn in the Republicans side for 9 years.
And the republicans get a good laugh.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)He supports him - he's "supporting" abuse etc
He doesn't support him - he's caving in
He just suggested trump should resign - what would people be saying if he said Franken shouldn't resign? Yes I know they're not the same - but he can't win either way.
sagesnow
(2,824 posts)putting into words my sense of unease about this matter.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)I had to thread a needle to figure out my own feelings on this matter. I don't think allegations should simply be dismissed as only being political simply because a Republican makes them against a Democrat. That is as bad as the right saying that Mueller's team is after Trump for purely political reasons because some of them exercised their right to contribute to a Democrat's election campaign. We are obligated to follow the facts to where they lead. If the facts are not clear than neither is the conclusion. If Franken is to be damned, he must be damned with facts. No special treatment, no cover up, but no rush to mob judgement either.
ananda
(28,866 posts)nt
scipan
(2,351 posts)and thoughtfulness is what we need right now. I agree with you completely, except that as a woman, if any of the actions described by accusers had happened to me, it would make me feel uncomfortable. I would NOT feel sexually assaulted.
We all have to make judgments on 1) the severity of the accusations, and 2) whether each one sounds true. We do this everyday in personal interactions, listening to gossip, etc. No one has a right to be just believed no matter what. That's nuts.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)I don't know from what generation the women who are feeling "assaulted, diminished as humans," even "scarred for life" because some asshole man made an off-color remark, or touched them in an inappropriate way.. As an early baby boomer, I know the difference between serious sexual assault (unwanted mauling or rape, pedophilia or statutory rape) and the kind of disgusting and inappropriate remarks or touching we learned to avoid from some men over the years. I well remember my then husband asking why I always refused a "good friend" of his when he asked me to dance. Inappropriate touching was the reason, of course. The thing is, I haven't thought of this guy, nor of any other guys who were similar jerks, for years until recently. I certainly wasn't scarred for life or tried to get the man fired from his job. I'm certainly glad my own daughter doesn't have to deal as much with this kind of behavior, but knows how to handle it if it occurs. OTOH, it seems we are either forgetting the degree of intent in any unwanted "pass." Again, as long as Trump is allowed to hold office, at least, we need to get a grip (no pun intended).
MissKat
(218 posts)I am stunned that Democrats went from-- "Let's have an ethics investigation." to "Out! Out NOW!"
the only thing that makes sense is if they know something that hasn't been made public.
There is going to be blowback to this. While the extreme would be to say that women should wear burkas and any unmarried woman must have a male from her family present when she goes out-- to those in the position of hiring choosing not to hire an attractive woman.
We'd best get hold of this snarling dragon before the flames burn all of us.
1. There is naughty behavior-- a pinch, a poke, a grab, a pat. These happen in public, in view of others.
2. There is criminal behavior--degradation of a woman, demanding sexual favors in exchange for employment, not listening when a woman says, "NO", taking advantage of a child, these are examples of criminal actions. These happen behind closed doors.
Everything Franken seems to be accused of happened in public. Could it be because he worked as a comedian? Why is no one addressing this?
If he steps down I WILL NEVER GIVE TO THE DNC EVER AGAIN.
Let these women come forward and tell their story. Let Franken take a lie detector test if asked. Let the ENTIRE story be aired and then we decide.
Unless...there's something we haven't been told.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)geardaddy
(24,931 posts)It's Franken.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Yup, second paragraph second sentence. I would correct it now but doing so at this point wold result in the dreaded red print edit notice, which I prefer not to highlight when the text itself has not been edited.
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)Just thought maybe you missed it.
wisteria
(19,581 posts)I am done with this party.
Iggo
(47,558 posts)Show me.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)secondwind
(16,903 posts)"harassment"....
Roy Moore harassed teenagers, he stalked them, he pursued them, etc. Franke did NONE of those things.
Yes, he's a little bit too friendly maybe, or it may be that he is still a comedian at heart. I will miss him when he leaves.
Guilded Lilly
(5,591 posts)You have all failed. Failed the people, your party, (or what that party is supposed to represent), your country.
Due process has been ignored.
You have just set back our Democracy by playing into the hands of anti-humanity, anti-accountability, anti-truth, anti-fairness Republican mentality.
The disappointment is physically painful.
Sen. Patty Murray of Washington
Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand
Sen. Mazie Hirono of Hawaii
Sen. Claire McCaskill of Missouri
Sen. Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire
Sen. Kamala Harris of California
Sen. Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin
Sen. Debbie Stabenow of Michigan
Sen. Heidi Heitkamp (D-North Dakota)
Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California
Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass.
Sen. Cantwell (D-Wash.)
Sen. Stabenow (D-D.C.)
Sen. Jackie Speier
Sen. Hassan (NH)
Sen. Duckworth (D-IL)
Sen. Schumer (D-NY)
Sen. Bob Casey, D-Penn.
Sen. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio
Sen. Ed Markey, D-Mass.
Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.
Sen. Jeff Merkley, D-Ore.
Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore.
Sen. Joe Donnelly, D-Ind.
Sen. Heinrich (D-NM)
Sen. Bennett (D-CO)
Sen. Wyden (D-OR)
Sen. Merkley (D-OR)
Sen. Carper (D-Del)
Sen. Casey (D-PA)
Sen. Durbin (D-IL)
Sen. Markey (MA)
Sen. Udall (D-NM)
Sen. Tester (D-Montana)
Sen. Cory Booker (D-NJ)
Sen. Peters (D-MI)
Sen. Murphy (D-CT)
Sen. King (I-ME)
Sen. Sanders (I-VT)
pazzyanne
(6,556 posts)I have notified the DNC to remove my name from their mailing list, email list, and all other lists they may have me on. I will NOT donate to party, nor will I donate to the senators that did not allow due process to happen. I will continue to vote for those candidates that uphold lawful procedures and continued moral practices. To say that the party has let me down in an understatement. I guess the republicans are not the only ones who need to rebuild their party. Call me disillusioned.
orleans
(34,057 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)elleng
(130,972 posts)as always.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts). . . an email from HR.
Jan Levinson
(16 posts)I am also willing to believe he may have been sexually inappropriate... but the difference between his allegations and say Charlie Roses is that Frankens allegation started with a blog post from Leeann Tweeden. Charlie Roses came from the Washington Post and were corroborated and vetted. Citizen journalism is simply not as reliable as a credible newspaper who has people trained to look at sources from a variety of different angle. I also think it is fair to ask about the women who say Franken is touching their butts in the pictures as a woman, who is very pro women and anti sexual assault even if it was intentional, that cannot be equated with the sexual harassment a Matt Lauer, Charlie Rose, Bill Cosby, Bill OReilly is accused of. However, I do think it is very possible it could have been an accident touching the butts in photos the hard thing is we dont see the hand in the photo!
Even above all these points, I do believe its possible this is a smear. Steven Bannon told Charlie Rose that as long as Democrats play identity politics, Republicans will always win. I believe THIS is what Bannon was talking about he knows that democrats play political theater in a way that they look like they are making the moral decision. Unfortunately, it doesnt work and to me it looks like theyve been Bannond or Stoned here. What makes me truly question these womenand I hate that I am questioning them and I feel like Bannon and Stone KNEW they could drive democrats crazy with this storyis Leeann Tweedens history with conservative media and the Trumps. While it has been discussed online that Tweeden is friends with Hannity, I dont think it has been discussed that she has a history of friendship with Don Jr.
Do a super twitter search by typing in: Leeanntweeden from:donaldjtrumpjr // then type in donaldtrumpjr from:leeanntweeden .
Look at all of the times Tweeden and Trump Jr. have talked since 2011. I do HATE that I have to question these women, but I do believe Don Jr (who no longer has a security clearance), Bannon, Stone, and Hannity could have been in on this with Tweeden. I dont really have much to say about the other women. Heck, I am even willing to believe them, but at the VERY LEAST, I wish SOME NEWS OUTLET would look into Tweedens friendship with the Trumps and conservatives. But obviously the liberal media wont because they are afraid of looking liberal. Sigh. Conservative media sure sets the agenda.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Please post many many more to come