We are seeing the death of common sense and intelligent reasoning.

[tavernier]

Yes, I’m angry. My party has chosen this most pivotal time in history to turn on itself and its members out of_unnecessary_sheer blind panic.
When did innocent until proven guilty suddenly go out of the window?

Shame on you all, and I won’t shut up about your cowardice!

[Lifelong Protester]

1. I think as Nance Greggs said:

(I am paraphrasing here) didn't have his back. Appointed themselves as judge and jury.

[iluvtennis]

16. Ditto

[FarPoint]

29. Exactly..

I'm done...just going to watch the fallout.

[brooklynite]

2. Your principle applies to Roy Moore as well, doesn't it?

[hurple]

3. Yes

And so far all evidence presented corroborates the accusers' stories.

That is not the same in the Franken allegations, where the evidence presented does not support the stories. Not in one single case.

[brooklynite]

5. Hard evidence has been presented in only one case...and not the 14-YO sexual assault.

I'm sure the other accusations call for Moore's right to challenge them face to face, if we're applying your standard.

[LisaL]

26. Has Moore been charged with anything?

Doesn't appear he can be prosecuted for any of these allegations. So what would you have us do?

[brooklynite]

30. Has Franken been charged with anything?

You're the person insisting on due process in a non-legal context. I'm just saying that, when that's your standard, you have to apply it equally.

[LisaL]

33. Who says I don't?

[hurple]

42. They do.

However, there is also a circumstantial case against moore that does not exist for Franken.

We have anecdotal reports from various members of the community that moore was known for chasing after teenagers. That he was banned from locations around town because of it, and closely watched in other areas, because of it. In addition, there is his wife, who is decades younger than him, thus validating, even further, the reports against him. However, the assault and attempted rape charges, I will question, because he *is* innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt... And "he seems the type that would do it" is not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He does not have to *prove* he did not do it, they need to prove he did. And so far, between anecdotal evidence and evidence they have provided... he looks guilty. So, I believe the accusers over him.

On the other side, anecdotal evidence in the Franken situation does NOT support the claims made against him. Not one claim against him is supported by any of the evidence, either circumstantial or concrete, provided. Not. One. Plus, two of the accusations are so laughably lumped as "assault" (I mean come on... he put his arm around her waist during a photo-op and she's upset because she "won't even let he husband do that" Seriously?) when his worst "crime" in them seems to be just not stopping to ask, "how do you want to pose?" So, in Franken's case I believe him over his accusers.

Franken may be guilty. He may not. But, they railroaded him out so hard and so fast that we'll never know now, and he will forever be branded a sexual criminal in the history books. Lumped in the same category as weinstein, moore, trump and others who actually harassed, ASSAULTED, and raped women. And there is a big, big, difference between goosing someone in a photo and raping someone, just like there is a difference between stealing a candy bar and blowing up the world trade center.

Everybody accused of ANY crime deserves due process. They deserve to be considered innocent until proven guilty by a preponderance of evidence. THAT IS NOT HAPPENING!!! And it needs to. It needs to start NOW. The lynch-mob mentality around this subject is dangerous. And, it will lead to the same innocents lives being ruined that it has throughout history every time some topic becomes the focus of a lynch mob mentality. And, personally, I would rather many guilty parties get a pass than have one innocent person's life ruined.

[kcr]

4. I'd have had no problem giving him an ethics investigation either, if he'd wanted one.

Of course, that would have happened a long time ago. I imagine most of the time guilty parties are going to choose to step down, but if they want to defend themselves they should have that option, particularly when the stakes are high and they've been voted into office.

[SFnomad]

24. "I imagine most of the time guilty parties are going to choose to step down" ...

Isn't that just what Franken did? And please, don't try telling me he was forced out ... he could easily have chosen to fight it if he really was that innocent.

[kcr]

37. Being technically correct doesn't make you right.

He would have been a Senator in name only. It would have been an utterly pointless move. They were effectively forcing him out. Claiming that he could stay if he wanted to is stupid.

[SFnomad]

41. I'm not "technically" correct ... I'm correct and you know it.

And like I said, don't give me the "he was forced out" bs. If he really is that innocent, he could have defiantly spoken about the accused rights and that he'd like to have his investigation. Even if he was just "Senator in name only" ... and I really doubt he would be, isn't that still better than just being private citizen Franken?

[tavernier]

6. Interesting that you find both cases similar.

Obviously, I don’t.

[brooklynite]

8. "innocent until proved guilty" (your demand) is not dependent on the severity of the charges.

As for me, I first of all make a distinction between court cases and stepping down from political office. I believe the accusers of Roy Moore are very credibly; I believe some of the accusers of Al Franken are credible as well; the reaction of all the Democratic Women Senators and the Party Chair suggest my approach is reasonable.

[Atticus]

13. "I believe some of the accusers of Al Franken are credible". Which? And, why do you believe that

" the reaction of all the Democratic Women Senators and the Party Chair suggest (your) approach is reasonable"?

Doesn't this just amount to:. "Some people agree with me, so I must be right"?

[questionseverything]

19. franken is accused of a kiss and a couple squeezes

moore is a child molester

this act pretending you and the corporate dems not understanding the difference is weak

I understand the deep pockets always win but no point in pretending you all have had lobotomies

[Thor_MN]

46. OK, now you are defending Roy Moore?

I'm starting to think that accounts have been hacked...

[Binkie The Clown]

7. "Common" sense and intelligent reasoning has ALWAYS been confined to a small minority of humans.

The vast majority of human beings are impulse driven and guided only by the immediate emotional reaction to pleasure or pain or the promise of pleasure or the threat of pain.

I don't mean to sound like an elitist, but an awful lot of people, perhaps even the majority, are selfish, ignorant fools who can't be bothered with actual thinking or reasoning.

[mindem]

34. This / /

Bingo. People and issues remind me of moths bouncing off a porch light, a lot of activity with no real thought.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

9. We created a narrative we couldn't escape from

We said we would act upon any accusation of sexual nature as though it were 100% truthful and the Republicans said "Hold my beer and watch this."

The moral entrepreneurs of this era will be judged harshly by history.

[regnaD kciN]

12. Exactly...

We set ourselves up to be played by jumping on the outrage bandwagon during the #MeToo furor (not that I think we shouldn't fight sexual assault and harassment, obviously, but that an uncritical acceptance of the notion that not only should allegations of sexual improprieties be taken seriously and followed until justice is done, but that every accusation has to be assumed to be absolute truth and immediately and unquestionably accepted at face value is far from a proper way to conduct jurisprudence). Because we took such an absolutist position, it was only a matter of time before the G.O.P. sprung the trap.

[joshcryer]

10. Franken was sacrificed for the chance to win Alabama.

It was a political calculation that if Franken didn't resign, the Democrats would not own the narrative. Now the Democrats take the high ground, Franken takes the sword, and Alabama isn't about "Franken refuses to step down" it's about "Moore is a pervert."

This is not common sense as Alabama isn't that big of a prize. However, if you think long term, 2018, we have two southern states and gaining more requires a total house cleaning, especially if we're going to go with the virtue signaling that is increasingly prominent in our society.

[JI7]

22. democrats will never own the narrative. they will come up with something else to replace the emails

and franken.

and they will blur the differences with the false equivalencies . like comparing what Franken is accused of and the so called proof of it to what there is one Trump and Moore.

[joshcryer]

23. Indeed. The #metoo movement will be tired out by 2018.

In political terms social trends on social media and viral crap does not last long at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if social media makes a complete about face about things like this as someone will likely be accused by a false accuser and it'll come out. It's kind of already happening with the porn star that killed herself after a multitude of violent tweets were directed at her for not wanting to do porn with man who did gay porn.

[Locrian]

31. it's a stupid calculation

Here's what the gop would have done:

Use it to KEEP the issue in the headlights.
For every "Al Franken" this they say "Roy Moore did xxx"
Pivot to Moore and teens and sex. Stir in the creep factor.
Al wont step down? Moore should end his campaign - Moore should be prosecuted, Moore should be in jail, etc
Repeat, repeat, repeat.

[cbreezen]

11. As a woman... I'm sensing Emily's List.

Senator Gillibrand is ambitious.

[TheDemsshouldhireme]

15. I cant wait to turn the leadership of the party

to Gillibrand...once considered a blue dog democrat in NY. Count me out...................

[TheDemsshouldhireme]

14. This Franken thing has a Salem witch trial vibe.

Ok from what I've learned from this. We have LeeAnn Tweeden, close friends with Hannity, DTjr. Stone.....with a new gig as news person on a nothingburger radio show. Yeah......this group isnt up to anything shady. Perfectly altruistic group of non political people------I dont think so. The first story was rolled out with fore thought and planning on how best to make this go viral.

Correct me if I am wrong. But another woman made an accusation in the military and now has PTSD. Tweeden continued to post pictures of the USO work years after. Another is inappropriate waist touching. If "its my right as an entertainer" doesnt ring true...then is probably isnt.

Sorry.....but i think were are getting played and a good man is being sacrificed.

[Leighbythesea]

17. Agreed

Just wrote a seething email to Gillibrand.
In some way they have also sealed their own demise. I feel the other side will come for them all. Women can be targeted for harassment too.

[moondust]

18. Culture of greed

is corrupting everything.

[flor-de-jasmim]

20. We should also consider the WHOLE record...

What has Moore ever done on behalf of women? By making Franken a sacrificial lamb, they have gotten rid of a legislator who has fought hard for women, who showed Sessions for the liar he is, who has been vocally critical and fierce on a number of issues that Democrats fight Republicans on.

Tar and feathering seems to be in fashion again.

[tavernier]

25. The deepest cut is that his colleagues knew all of that

and still chose to plunge the knife in his back. I don’t wish to hear any of them call Al a friend one more time!

[Cosmocat]

21. Not for nothing

But, to use a common colloquial, the fat lady has been singing on that for years.

[FarCenter]

27. Your're right, but the media experts know appeals to emotion are much more powerful

Politics is all about the conditioning of feelings.

[NCTraveler]

28. Innocent until proven guilty should have no place

Outside of legal construct. Anything else would hinder progress and be irresponsible.

Calling others cowards doesn’t change that.

[LisaL]

32. Should have no place?

What are you arguing? That immediately upon accusation, we must assume accused is guilty?

[NCTraveler]

35. I made the case for no such thing.

My point was clear and needs no further defining. Innocent until proven guilty is a legal construct and will never be applied to the views of individuals in society.

How you go from that to your assumption is beyond me. I possess one voice in the court of public opinion. You possess one voice in the court of public opinion. When our voices are shared we form public opinion. You can’t and shouldn’t push to give that up. It’s directly related to progressive victories. Public opinion on a wide array of issues and individual actions shape society.

[matt819]

36. Satanic ritual abuse

This is like the McMartin preschool satanic ritual abuse hysteria in the 1980s.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

[GaryCnf]

38. I agree with you totally, BUT

did you notice the lesson from the replies?

If we make this about "due process" . . . we lose when it comes to saying Moore should be disqualified from public office, but Al should not. Roy Moore has accusers, Franken has accusers, neither has had their day before any "trier of fact."

If, however, we step back and say:

"We are not going to end Al Franken's political career because he touched women over whom he held no position of power on the posterior in public settings because that isn't sexual harassment AND we are not going to pander to the small percentage of people who think it is grounds for just because the same so-called "political experts" who've utterly failed to "attract women voters" for the last quarter-century beginning in 1992 are telling us that we have to attract women voters to win and this move, unlike all their others, will work.

BUT

We sure as hell are going to end Roy Moore's political career for making a 14 year-old child take off her clothes and touch his penis because that is fucking disgusting."

we WIN when it comes to saying Moore should be disqualified from public office, but Al should not AND we don't look ridiculous in front of the overwhelming majority of Americans.

[tavernier]

40. I did,

and agree 100%

[GaryCnf]

43. . . .

[Rene]

39. Well said I'm so amazed at the level of stupidity

[Progressive dog]

44. Franken has not been dragged out of the Senate

kicking and screaming. He resigned.

[DemRage]

45. Not trying to be rude, but I have been hearing this announcement for over 16 years. IT"S ALREADY

DEAD! IT'S BEEN DEAD FOR A WHILE!

Everyone needs to accept that, and stop trying to activate the alarm on something that already passed. Whatever actions we take, we need to start with reason and common sense have been dead for a while so consider that in the next steps.