It's wrong to railroad a person. Any person. It must be said and repeated.

[Honeycombe8]

When you see a wrong, it's important to call it out and keep calling it out. It doesn't matter that the people doing the railroading are nice, or have done good things in the past, or that you like them. That makes it all the more shocking.

It is wrong to railroad a person.

Some say Franken fell on his sword for the party, so they would have the honor of being the honorable party next year. Franken did not "resign," as such. He was fired by his colleagues. His colleagues took away the person that MN voted for, to be replaced by a female...better for next year's mid-terms. Fired based on specious, mostly anonymous allegations, ALL of which he denied or recalled differently. So that they'd have a leg up in the mid-terms, so they could say "See? We're the more honorable party." As if anyone is going to care about that. That would make more sense if these people were calling for Trump to resign, but they're not.

How can you be the honorable party, when you haven't called for Trump to resign? Yet you forced an innocent (for all we know) person to give up his political career?

This was wrong. It must be called out.

[dalton99a]

1. It was a lynch mob, instigated/led by Gillibrand

Like a mad crowd on Black Friday, they couldn't wait to stab him and Tweet about it

Disgusting

[Honeycombe8]

4. Gillibrand was on Morning Joe this a.m., trying to walk it back...how it's not so bad, what she did.

After all, she said, I'll still talk to him, if he calls me. You'll still have him on Morning Joe, won't you? It's not like he's banished from polite society!

I kid you not. She said that.

She also said he wasn't banished from the Senate...he resigned! The implication being that they, the 30 or so banishers, didn't do it. That won't wash, of course. A Senator can't function w/o the support of his/her colleagues and especially the leadership. He was in essence fired from his political career.

[Merlot]

20. She wanted to make a name for herself, she has presidential ambitions

[still_one]

35. I suspect she lost the favor of quite a few the way she did this, and many will be looking at

other potential nominees more closely now

[Jarqui]

42. That describes me

I was quite interested in her, considering her for 2020.

No chance of that now.

[RandomAccess]

66. I feel the same way -- my fear, now,

is that she WILL become our nominee. I know many others are upset with ALL the Dems, and since she was so outfront on this -- and apparently the ringleader, she will get the bulk of the blame.

[questionseverything]

68. if you have watched who the deep pocket dems on du are supporting....

it appears you are correct

and if it kh as the nominee, we will lose again

[iluvtennis]

51. Gillibrand will most likely never get my vote if she runs. I say 'most likely' cuz if

she were on the ticket and the rethugs had a viable candidate that I considered incompetent and evil, I would vote Dem. Sometimes you gotta chose the one who will do less harm even though you don't like 100% their platform/them.

That said, I've lost respect for her - what she did was wrong.

[Mr. Evil]

53. We now know her to be a devious sort.

She's going to run in 2020 and she knows damn well she couldn't hold a candle to Sen. Franken should he decide to run also. He is an obstacle to her and Kamala Harris, who is also looking to possibly run. They're making a mockery of women that have actually been attacked for their personal political gain. I will never support any of these democrats ever again. They've shown their true colors.

[PatrickforO]

60. LOL, boy did THAT backfire.

My Dad and Mom were WWII generation people. They were utterly convinced there is a right and a wrong, and just as convinced they could raise me to know the difference.

One of the things that got drilled into me is that you have to stand for something. Yes, you can change your mind in the face of evidence, but you don't just bend whichever way the wind is blowing.

And THAT'S what Gillibrand did. She miscalculated, thinking that by pandering to the 'me too' movement, she could gain points and further her own ambitions.

While we've lowered the bar in general for this kind of gutless behavior for our politicians, this was particularly egregious. It won't wash, and it WILL damage her brand. Seriously. I hate this kind of immoral shit - seeing someone get railroaded. It is unconscionable and odious. Despicable.

So, what can Gillibrand do to make up for this egregious mistake?

1. When the due process proves Franken innocent, APOLOGIZE PUBLICLY and abjectly. No excuses. 'I was horribly wrong, I should not have done this and I'm truly sorry.' That's the ONLY thing that will EARN her back my support during the primary season in my state. Otherwise she can COUNT on me to actively oppose her bid in favor of her opponent(s), and I'm sure going to be looking at where these people ALL were on the Franken issue and be throwing my support and my money behind the people who said 'wait, let's let this play out - Franken deserves due process.' And that goes for Bernie, too, if he runs. Unless he apologizes for railroading Franken, I won't support him. I love his platform and heavily supported him in 16, but not now. Not unless he backs it off IF Franken is proven innocent.

2. Work with this 'me too' group to find some way that men who have misguidedly acted inappropriately (no, I'm not talking about rape or coercive stuff, but take the things in context) touched someone or said something inappropriate to back off, apologize and be forgiven (provided always they don't repeat the offense). There's got to be a way to do this, otherwise every man over 50 is going to be doing a perp walk, because that was the culture in the 70s, 80s and 90s. So...take it in the context of its time, look at how serious it is, and last and most importantly, are they doing it now?

As is, this has left a real bad taste in my mouth. I don't like to see someone railroaded on baseless accusations. That isn't the America I believe in. Not at all.

And if you're an elected official or big in the party apparatus, and you're reading this, note the word, EARN. Candidates still have to EARN the support of voters, especially the 40%+ of the electorate that is registered Independent. They aren't just going to vote for you because, hey, look at how bad the Republican is! They are only going to vote for you IF YOU STAND FOR SOMETHING AND STICK BY THAT. The lack of guts that made these 38 senators turn on one of our best is just despicable.

[pangaia]

23. Holy shit..!

I called her out yesterday, as I mention below, and got a hide for it... And she is 'MY' senator.

[PatSeg]

31. Oh my

I don't think she'll ever live this one down. I won't ever be able to look at her and not remember what she helped do to an exceptional senator. All those who followed her lead, for what appears to be political reasons, need to do some serious soul searching.

[still_one]

32. My question to Senator Gellibrand is did she have the guts to actually confront Franken personally

face to face before she started this petition, or did she hide behind the anonymity of the crowd, and not even speak to Franken of her intentions?

[Guilded Lilly]

49. So, she will still talk to him, if he calls her?? Oh, my, how big if her....

How generous! (Sarcasm dripping)
I emailed her and about half the list of contributing Senators hideously ignoring due process. I wasn’t generous.

She failed us. She failed the party.
But she is apparently thinking so highly of herself that our opinion won’t matter.

[Honeycombe8]

5. +1. nt

[workinclasszero]

64. Sickening

[femmedem]

2. And he wasn't even up for reelection until 2020.

That seat was safe for the rest of the decade, unless an investigation revealed something warranting more than censure.

[mindem]

3. True

For some reason, this whole affair keeps reminding me of the shenanigans that went on with Acorn. Why is it we are to believe someone who felt it was proper to grab a guitar players ass but expects different treatment from others toward her. It's a little suspect.

[Bettie]

6. Her ass grabbing says less to me than

her strong connections to Hannity, Donny Jr., and her birtherism.

[dchill]

13. +1000

[appal_jack]

11. Not just ACORN, but a larger pattern:

Having been a political junkie since the 1980's, I've watched an eerily-similar sort of group think before among Democrats: the Reagan tax cuts of the 1980's that ballooned the deficit and provided the rationale for the shredding of the social safety net (Democrats fall in line), the 2nd-Amendment-violating and ineffective Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 (Democrats leading the charge), the early 2000's Iraq War Resolution (too many complicit Democrats, particularly those thinking it would make them look strong and "Presidential" ), then the Swiftboat nonsense against John Kerry (Democrats crumple like wet tissue), and then the meritless innuendo against ACORN (damn, the B*sh years sucked, didn't they?). With the election of Obama, the group-think became self-constructed weakness: Democrats had to push a Republican/Heritage Foundation private market health plan instead of a public option or Medicare for all. Democrats had to take the "high road" and honor Republican "blue slips" regarding judicial nominations... Are Republicans doing the same now?!? Nooooooo!

And now this Media Star Chamber trial of Franken (led by a Democrat!). I don't know and won't debate whether he was perfect or not, but he is a damned good Senator: on women's issues, on economic issues, on many civil liberties, and on government accountability. Franken is why we have tenuous (and ever fainter) hope that Robert Mueller's investigation might bring us back from the brink of authoritarianism.

On every one of these issues, Democrats started or pre-emptively folded on the wrong side of the matter and then suffered entirely predictable and avoidable (had they employed a lick of common sense) consequences. As far as I am concerned, Democrats just surrendered 2018 and 2020.

-app

[mindem]

15. I agree

Sometimes I wish we could have a good dose of Tammany Hall or at least some real evidence of fighting spirit. Milquetoast doesn't work, it never has.

[Lurks Often]

8. I agree with you, but does that apply to Roy Moore as well?

(And I've despised Roy Moore long before he ran for Senate)

[Honeycombe8]

9. Railroading implies being punished w/o due process, & believing specious claims.

He has not been elected (yet) by the people of his state.

He will not be railroaded. He'll be investigated, at most, it seems.

But the evidence between the two is stark. As well as well known character and prior behavior. All of this comes into play. The "evidence" against Franken was more vague, most of it by anonymous sources. Some of it ridiculous (he put his hand on my wait and "grabbed some flesh," when I asked him to take a pic with me) vs. "I was 14...he took me somewhere and fondled me and took off my clothes." Or "I was 16, he fondled my privates, locked the door, wouldn't let me out of the car, as I cried and tried to fight him off...then he stopped and warned me not to tell anyone because he was a D.A. and I was just a kid & wouldn't be believed." The claims against Moore are by people who have come forward publicly, not anonymously, some making their shocking claims on television.

Despite statements, the RNC is funding his campaign. Money = full support. The President of the U.S. has openly endorsed him and fully supports him. So Moore is not, and will not be, railroaded. He can't be.

[Lurks Often]

10. Do we decide allegations are true based on their credibility or because we hate/love the politician?

[tonedevil]

12. I don't know about you...

for me it has to do with the truth. That is why I would like the allegations against Senator Franken investigated. The allegations against Roy Moore should be thoroughly investigated before any sort of punishment, but you are going to have to tell me how he is being punished. I hope you can see how the Senator is being punished and that it has occurred with zero investigation.

[Lurks Often]

26. The truth matters to me as well

I don't know if the allegations against the various politicians are true or not. It's probable that there will be allegations against politicians of both parties that do turn out to be true.

Unfortunately we as a society don't seem to be nearly as concerned with the truth and facts as we used to be.

[tonedevil]

63. Why then...

cast aspersions on the veracity of people who simply believe that Senator Franken was not given an opportunity for due process. I have a very low opinion of Roy Moore for reasons beyond his sexual transgressions. The man was removed from office for judicial misconduct and if my memory serves me correctly, it was twice. Given that I don't care if he is a virgin. That said Mr. Moore is not being denied his due process so I don't see the equivalency with the treatment of the Senator that you apparently do.

[Lurks Often]

65. I agree with those who believe that Franken was not given due process

I disagree with those who will deny the allegations against Franken as untrue, while at the same time firmly believing the allegations against Moore simply because they support Franken and don't support Moore due to the politics.

People have every right and reason to hate Moore, but hate him based on the facts, not unproven (to date) allegations.

[Nasruddin]

29. Punishment

Roy Moore is definitely being punished. Whether it's adequate for his issues I can't say.

His reputation is ruined. His campaign, which should have been a free pass after the
primary, is still a toss up. Republican support is definitely fractured. He needs a lot
more money than he would have otherwise and is probably not getting all of it.

Whether it's appropriate is another story. It's a political process and this is how we play politics
in the USA. We are also in the middle of a moral panic over this issue, some other time
it would've just blown away (like Trump's issues did last year). Bad luck.

[still_one]

41. All the current polls indicate he holds a 7 point lead

[tonedevil]

61. If he loses...

you have something of a point. If he wins everything you pointed out will be no longer operative. Having a majority of your Senatorial colleagues demand you resign is punishment, dealing with mud slung at you during a campaign is just politics.

[RandomAccess]

67. Do you notice no one here is lobbying for Conyers to stay?

That should answer your question.

[sarisataka]

30. Yes,

Major difference- Sen Franken submitted himself to the established justice process. He himself called for an ethics investigation. His fellow Democrats could have called for an immediate start to such an investigation in order to determine the veracity of the accusations.

Unfortunately they found it more expedient to skip straight to the punishment stage.

[zentrum]

14. It was wrong, wrong, wrong

The Dems finally take a stand---and it's against one of their own strongest members!!!! Why didn't they go after Trump like this about his behavior?

Instead they shoot themselves in the foot.

[peggysue2]

34. Too True!

zentrum said:

The Dems finally take a stand---and it's against one of their own strongest members!!!!

Bitter irony alert.

In the wake of Franken's announced resignation, there appears to be a scramble to walk back the nature of what was willfully (and IMHO) needlessly done with a lynch-mob mentality. On a new day, we now have Dems admitting that this was a moral and political calculation, that sweeping the board clean elevates the Democratic position on gender/sexual issues.

It apparently required a sacrifice and Franken was the sacrificial goat.

I find Guillibrand's comments on the whole sorry affair very disconcerting--minimizing the call for resignation, pretending that she and her colleagues didn't pile on for a theatrical effect, as if the ruination of Franken's political career is a minor blip on the radar.

Yes, Franken's boorish misconduct opened the door to all the brouhaha, but I still maintain that a single response (public beheadings) to all offensive behaviors--from the least to the whoppers--is inherently wrong. And though the Ethics' Committee's process may be flawed, a public airing is still preferable to the rough justice handed to Senator Franken.

Lawrence O'Donnell made an interesting statement last night: Never look to politics for fairness.

Perhaps, he's correct. But it still sucks.

[brooklynite]

16. When ABSOLUTELY NO MEMBER of the Senate Democratic Causus will support you...

...perhaps that says more than "railroading".

[Denzil_DC]

22. It certainly says something about the Senate Democratic Caucus - and its sponsors.

It's not gone down at all well with my partner, who's added her voice to those complaining to her congresscritter Gillibrand.

[atreides1]

37. Perhaps!

But perhaps all that indicates is political expediency!

Remove a distraction before it becomes the center of attention!!!

[brooklynite]

45. Once again: you have to imagine that NOT ONE SENATE DEMOCRAT was "principled" enough...

Not Elizabeth Warren
Not Bernie Sanders
Not Sherrod Brown
Not Kamala Harris (former AG; knows something about "due process&quot

Too many people are allowing their anger to cloud their assessment of every single Democratic Senator, in my opinion.

[Thor_MN]

50. Need I point out that Bernis Sanders is not a Senate Democrat?

So you believe there are 33 Senate Democrats? Huh... I did not know there were 65 Republican Senators...

Maybe you don't know as much as you think you do...

Maybe there a lot of people spreading bullshit.

[brush]

58. And you're not? Many will regret not waitng for an investigation, especially Gillibrand.

[PatrickforO]

38. Franken didn't get to finish his due process. That's the issue.

They called on him to resign to pander to the 'me too' movement, which was a political calculation gone wrong. Why wrong? Because it shows a total lack of moral fortitude. You don't turn on someone who is merely accused of something until they've had due process.

I donate to a lot of those people, and those who called on Franken to resign can expect a closed wallet from me (and admittedly, I'm small potatoes, but I do give regularly), and active opposition during the primary season. And yes, that goes for when Harris or Gillibrand want to run for president in 2020. They will not have my support, and I will oppose them until they are nominated. Then I will...vote...for them. But that's it. No knocking on doors, making phone calls, donating.

You just don't do this. This was wrong, and if we're not careful it will be a new McCarthyism. A new 'red scare.' Oh, I have a list of 1,000 male Democrats who have committed sexual harassment...that's what it is in danger of becoming! Do you want that for our party? I sure don't. Not witch hunts. Not a bunch of ignorant people climbing up the hill to the castle with torches and pitchforks to kill the monster. That's just morally wrong, don't you see that?

And yeah, I know about abuse. It happens to us men, too. But, no matter what, I would NEVER, EVER railroad someone accused of it without due process. Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

Sorry, but I'm not with these 38 'courageous' senators, and it made me sick Sanders was one of them, though his call had more class than others, because he called out Roy Moore and Trump.

[rainin]

17. I agree completely. Can someone recommend our next move?

How do we stop this? How do we get heard? How do we take back control of the media? How do we win?

[spooky3]

40. One little step you could take is to buy his book:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1455540412/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512749148&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=al+franken+giant+of+the+senate&dpPl=1&dpID=51KBpKVRPYL&ref=plSrch

This would convey support to him. And while he’s not impoverished I’m sure his family did not plan on losing his job and income.

[whathehell]

18. Agreed. n/t

[PatrickforO]

19. Wish I could push that 'rec' button 1,000 times

What happened to Franken besmirches this party. It is a matter of shame, not honor. And when the time comes for me to open my wallet, I'm not going to forget.

[Nasruddin]

24. That was certainly one of the points...

of this operation

[PatrickforO]

54. Yes it was. Isn't it too bad our leadership is so gutless and devoid of moral fortitude

that they fell for it?

I'll tell you what, after the due process proves Franken innocent, a matter of which I'm quite confident judging by what I've seen and heard so far, there had better be some serious and heartfelt apologies from this mob.

That won't completely mitigate this misguided and shortsighted railroad job, but it will go a long way toward EARNING my support back.

I talk with a hell of a lot of people, and just met the other morning with a young millennial who wanted to form a local network of other millennials to push back against stuff that's hurting them, like high student loans, homes priced out of their reach, their inability to build the same levels of wealth we baby boomers enjoyed and had built when we were their age.

He wanted to start a third party. In fact surveys show that an overwhelming majority of millennials want a third party.

Instead, I counseled him to build his network, and guide them to coalesce around several 'make it or break it' issues. Then, I said, think about what the Tea Party did to the Republicans - you're going to do the same thing with the Democrats, only it's going to be you and not Charlie Koch coopting you like happened with the Tea Party.

Because, I told him, if you get twenty or thirty millennials who live in ______ County to show up, with your agenda, en masse to a _____ County Democrats meeting, then you're going to drive the action for that party. Soon, you'll have people in school boards, town and city councils and boards of county commissioners. Then, maybe a couple years down the road, it will be your people who are nominated to run for state legislature and other state level offices. Maybe four years and your group can send a gubernatorial candidate forward. Six to eight years, and you'll control the nominating process for national office.

There's a whole new generation out there and they are cynical, savvy and unhappy with years of being screwed by the system. And they are starting to be restless throughout this country.

The moral of this story? Our guys now better be developing some moral fortitude, stand for something, stick by that something and begin winning elections.

[pangaia]

21. I called it out, indicating one Senator in particular, and got a hide.

Watch your back.

[MoonRiver]

25. Try to mention no names and talk in generalities, while still getting the point across.

It can be done, but takes diligent practice!

[pangaia]

27. True.. but....

There were 'names' mentioned in probably hundreds of other posts..
In fact, even in the post I was replying to.

[MoonRiver]

33. Then you were on a "hit list." It happens.

[pangaia]

43. That was my take.

It happened several months ago.

One of them, I didn;t see the hide until the 'statute of limitations' ran out.

I wrote to Skinner.. He was very nice about it... got back and said if he had seen the hide sooner he would have rescinded it..

[MoonRiver]

46. It's happened to me also. I complained to adms but got nada back.

Now I just, try to, watch my back.

[spooky3]

28. And they had a better alternative: let the

investigation play out. As impractical as it surely would have been, in a Repub dominated body, more due process would have been possible than with the means they chose. The Dems just didn’t want to deal with the messiness. They behaved immorally, and gained NOTHING strategically. They gave the green light to future Repubs’ dirty tricks.

[PatSeg]

39. And the Roger Stones of the world

are laughing behind closed doors - it was all just so easy.

[Taraman]

47. My thoughts exactly.

I'm furious about this. Offends my sense of justice. Gillibrand et al should be ashamed.

[PatSeg]

36. I would like to see more women

in positions of power in government, but not like this. Throw away an Al Franken just to put a woman in the Senate? This is insane.

[SHRED]

44. Women in power just because they are female is insanity

It was women (and men) who railroaded Franken.

[PatSeg]

55. Exactly

So how did their actions serve women in the long run? It is starting to look like it will end up being a setback, as we go back to not taking women seriously when they report sexual assault or harassment. In business, when there is a choice between a qualified woman or a man for a position, companies may want to go with the man, so as to avoid the mess and expense that goes with sexual misconduct allegations.

Thanks to all those senators who unwittingly have made a mockery of the #MeToo movement.

[SHRED]

62. My sentiments exactly

[90-percent]

48. Al is a precious one in a billion public servant

He has the principles, wisdom intelligence and wit to do great things for progressivism and simple fairness in our kleptocracy. He is a rare gift that we have a politician that brings a bazooka to the slapping contests in the Senate.

And the origin of his accuisations were born of a woman with an impressive history of palling around with the like of Don Jr., Hannity and the original I was ther ewhen Atwater invented ratfucking; Lee Atwater of Republican dirty tricks.
90%

[HeartLikeAWheel]

52. Reposting my earlier post (in General Discussion) with edits

Damn right it's wrong!

The power of #metoo is its factual basis. Sexual harassment is such a widespread problem that almost all women and some men have experienced it. Finally, there is a movement that gives our lived experience credibility.

As much research has shown, false accusations of sexual assault and/or harassment are rare (on par with false accusations of other crimes). For that reason, very few people have had that experience. I was one of them. I am a 62 year old woman. Thirty years ago, when I was an assistant professor at the university where I still teach, a student made such charges against me. The circumstances were unusual. The accuser was a former student of mine. Her boyfriend was a current student. I knew he had a crush on me. I can only suppose that my accuser was jealous and out for revenge. In any case, she not only made a formal accusation to my chair, but compiled a list of all those male students I had supposedly harassed. This was complete nonsense, but she was insistent. Fortunately, my chair demonstrated more sense than 30 Democratic senators. She informed the student that she had no standing to bring charges, and that her boyfriend was the one to bring them, if there was any truth at all to what she was saying. Of course, that never happened.

I knew I was innocent, but I was tormented by my realization of how difficult it would be to prove a negative. I also knew that, if word got around, there would always be some doubt about me. In thirty years, I have shared this story with only five persons for precisely that reason. I am sharing it now because of the railroading of Senator Franken.

I am disgusted by the actions of the leaders of my party-people I had respected up until now. I urge everyone to consider that due process and the presumption of innocence are good things. Many accusers are credible, but some are not. Certainly no one should be forced out of their job on the basis of anonymous accusations. At least I knew who was accusing me and therefore could offer some coherent response.

Yes, I have experienced sexual harassment. I know it's real and widespread. That's the irony of my story and why I've felt whipsawed by the past few weeks.

[Kittycow]

56. I wrote Wyden and Merkley that they lost my trust.

And did the ACORN fiasco not teach them anything?

It was through Resistbot so I don't know if they'll ever see it. I used the Railroading word.

[rainlillie]

57. I think it's foolish to believe every claim..

Unless the person being accused has a history of abusive behavior. Either way, the claims should be investigated.. Think about all the African American men who were wrongly accused.. Some were killed because of lies. We need to take one case at a time.

[UnTied]

59. Al hasn't resigned - yet

He said in the "coming weeks" he would be resigning. How many weeks does this buy him to prove himself right, to demand that the accuser not hide behind the label "unnamed"? He asked for an investigation and was denied such by his Senate colleagues. If he knows he can prove his innocence, this could put heat on anyone trying to accuse him unjustly. If he is guilty he might just want to consider going away quietly. But Al is a fighter, and if he is being railroaded, he could go a long way toward proving that Roger Stone or his ilk are behind this, and that the door should not be opened to allow Repubs to know just knock good office holders and candidates with a couple of unnamed accusers.
I am not suggesting that the other accusers are not legit. Women should always be heard when they make these accusations. My two daughters would deserve the same.
But unless the DEMs want to run only women or gay men from now on, they had better figure out how to protect those men being falsely accused, else, why would a man want to put himself and his family in this kind of jeopardy. If we don't find a means of protection, we have just given the Republican cheaters another tool in their already dirty toolbox.

[flamingdem]

69. They'd have to kiss his ass to make him stay now

and admit error.

I see about zero chance of that happening.

There is very little support for this move.