So where exactly should a short man place his hands when asked for a friendly photo by a woman?

[femmedem]

Last edited Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:11 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm short, and I have a photo of a very tall Senator Murphy with his hand on the top of my shoulder. That's an easy choice for him to make. It's the natural place for his hands to fall.

But what if a 5'6" man is asked to take hundreds, maybe thousands of photos with women?

Apparently breast, waist and hip areas are all off limits. Shoulder is awkward, especially if the woman is tall.

And here is a relevant story: Mr. Femmedem is also short, shorter than Franken by an inch or two. I got upset with him once when his hands were on a woman's butt during a group photo shoot, which I was part of. When I pointed it out, he was horrified because he hadn't even noticed. It was just where his hands fell.

Not saying this is the case with Franken. But it is a possibility, and one reason he deserved the investigation he asked for.

(I know the horse I'm beating is comatose, if not dead, and this will be my last post on the subject. Forgive me for being so angry and disillusioned that I'm having a tough time dropping it.)

[ret5hd]

1. On the opposite side of a desk/table...each reaching halfway across to shake hands.

[NewJeffCT]

77. if a woman came up to him and hugged him and asked for a picture

and put her arm around Franken's shoulder, like the picture of Franken and Tina DePuy, should Franken stand there like a stiff with his arms at his sides and hands in his pockets? Or, does he reciprocate because he's a politician and politicians are supposed to be out there shaking hands, kissing babies, etc.

[ret5hd]

87. I dunno...what's your take? Is it a possible set-up? I suggest only being in public with...

gloves like these:

[RhodeIslandOne]

2. Refuse

Back away loudly declaring you are not touching them.

If you’re a Republican however, feel free to ask to impregnate them.

[femmedem]

9. Thank you for making me laugh.

I needed that.

[ChubbyStar]

60. BAZINGA! You WIN!!!!

[VOX]

96. Hahaha you nut!

Thanks, it IS the best medicine!

[democratisphere]

3. Men should just say "NO" to photos with unknown women.

It just isn't worth the hassles and ruination.

[Binkie The Clown]

91. Or follow Pence's example and stay away from all women unless "mother" is present. nt

[Bettie]

4. At this point

I'd say they must stand at least 12 inches away from the person they are being photographed with, hands in the air as if being arrested to guarantee that there is zero contact.

This is literally the only way to ensure that there will be little possibility of a future accusation, though, I'm certain that some would find a way to declare harassment or abuse in this too.

[ProfessorGAC]

30. They Could Put Their Hands On Their Heads

Like prisoners of war. I'm sure the pictures will be memorable and the other people in the photo will cherish!

[Bettie]

35. And still, there will be accusations

His elbow bumped me when he turned to leave!

He looked at me in a way that made me "uncomfortable".

If the new standard is "I felt uncomfortable" then I'm regularly harassed by all sorts of things I see happening when I'm out and about.

[brush]

46. "I felt uncomfortable" is vaguely familiar to something else....let's see, it's coming to me...

it's on the tip of my tongue.

Oh, now I remember: "I feared for my life."

[Bettie]

48. It does, doesn't it?

and the point of both is that there is no proof required, becasue it is all based on a "feeling" which can't be proven or disproven.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

55. Sounds like the usual police shooting response😦

[ProfessorGAC]

54. I'm Feeling Uncomfortable With. . .

. . .with all the people here acting like conservatives with their tunnel vision and single issue voting approach.

Nobody to complain to about that. It just is what it is.

[DesertRat]

68. President Obama has taken thousands of pics with women

There have never been accusations of him making women feel uncomfortable. Somehow he figured it out.

[NewJeffCT]

79. Obama is 6'1"

so, is likely taller than most women he's taking a picture with. Franken is 5'5"

[NewJeffCT]

90. If accusations against Obama start coming out

will you change your mind? As far as I know, Franken had a good reputation as a hard working and diligent senator before a month ago. Franken had been doing this photo ops for years.

[DesertRat]

104. Change my mind about what?

I'd be shocked and disheartened if accusations started coming out against President Obama.

[NewJeffCT]

105. you had said that Obama had taken thousands of pictures

with women and never been accused of anything. Until November, Franken had never been accused of anything either in many years and many thousands of pictures taken. Who is to say that accusations against Obama won't be coming out in the near future?

[kacekwl]

107. BINGO n/t

[kacekwl]

106. Yep hands on head and a

loud NO to the picture. Have some signed photos for an aid to hand out.

[Lurks Often]

5. In their pockets or with both hands on their smartphone these days

[JDC]

15. And risk being accused of touching themselves?

I honestly fear this serious issue is getting ground under the heal of sensationalism.

[Lurks Often]

19. It is a serious issue and yes unfortunately it is being ground down

What's to stop other politicians from being brought down by allegations that might just baseless?

The answer is nothing and I expect the 2018 elections to be especially nasty.

There are going to be more allegations in the future against people we hate and people we like. I suspect many of these allegations will be true, but how do we decide if the allegations are true or lies designed to destroy people's careers and damage their lives?

[Denzil_DC]

6. I'm relatively short. We've discussed this in an earlier post last week.

If I overcompensate by placing my hands higher on a woman's back, I risk ending up around the bra strap area, which isn't a place anybody wants them to be - the margin of error is quite small.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

58. "Just say No" was before it's time!😮

[Denzil_DC]

65. On one very embarrassing occasion,

a female neighbor of ours wanted a hug goodbye after a Christmas gathering in a very cluttered living room.

I missed my footing (big feet, one crippled - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it), we toppled as one, and ended up sprawling indecorously on the nearby sofa. My wife was there and saw the whole thing. I lived, and kept my job.

Where my hands happen to fall during embraces is the least of my worries, apparently.

[dalton99a]

7. Keep your hands above your head and no one will be harmed

[rzemanfl]

10. Best answer for the new USA that is so "great" again. n/t

[NCTraveler]

8. Where does your hand land?

I’ve simply never had an issue here outside of actual ass grabbers.

As the shorter person it normally my arm down low. I can honestly say I’ve never rested my hand on an ass for a photo. If we’re talking hips, it’s a standard that shouldn’t be in place. With Franken it’s only a small piece to the story.

Let’s not redesign the wheel over political hit jobs.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. By his side ?

[Lochloosa]

16. Dangerous. Leg rubbing.

[brush]

53. Hahahahahahaha! Yep, that'll be the next allegation since the "leg rubber" thought he had...

adroitly side-stepped a waist grope.

[malaise]

12. I have more group photos with colleagues than I can count

and they all seem perfectly natural to me - most have hands around waists - some around shoulders. I have never once thought that any of them suggests sexual harassment or assault.


Some years ago I was the organizer of the dinner for a retiring professor. The dinner was the first event in a major conference. We had a detestable Department and when I was finished the announcements at the end he came in front of me and hugged me. Well I could have made a scene in front of everyone or deal with it afterwards. Let me be clear that this was not a sexual assault just a plain assault. I told him a short while after that if he ever tried that again I would kick him in his parts for everyone to see. He never came near me again.

[HopeAgain]

13. I'm surprised to see all these kinds of threads on DU

I have never had difficulty being clearly platonic around women. It's common sense and to see this backlash here is surprising.

[femmedem]

23. My point is, it's possible that a man's intentions can be platonic

and he may think he's clearly being platonic, but the placement of his hands can be interpreted differently by the woman he's touching.

Again, I'm not saying the allegations don't warrant an ethics investigation. I'm saying I disagree with the career-ending rush to judgment. I hope I'd say that even if he wasn't one of my favorite Senators.

[HopeAgain]

25. There were some women with questionable intentions

That came out against Franken. In that case there is not much that you can do. They can say your hand was wherever and what defense does he have years later?

[mythology]

24. It's absurd

I can only assume these are trying to deflect. I have somehow managed to never "accidentally" grope somebody during a picture.

[Bettie]

37. And if your hand is not visible in the picture

and someone decides to say you did grope them, you have no proof that you didn't.

And, since the new standard of proof is an accusation, you'd be automatically guilty.

[kirby]

83. You don't know...

You are judging your behavior solely on your standards. You don't know what the standards or belief system of the other person is. You may not have taken tens or hundreds of thousands of random photos with a diverse group of people either.

[kcr]

93. Wow. Who knew we had a national level politician posting right here on DU

I'm amazed you take time out of your busy schedule to post here so much. How do you do it? I don't blame you for not revealing your identity though. Thank goodness no one has accused you of inappropriate touching! With all those pictures you have to take.

[ProfessorGAC]

32. While I Am The Same. . .

. . .we have not been asked countless times by people we don't know "can we get of picture of you and me?"

And as a public figure, i would expect most people to try to be accommodating and friendly which likely leads to treating someone with familiarity. I'm guessing it's a bit easier for people like you me, because it hasn't come up 10,000 times.

We have a few accusers. How many pictures has Al been asked to pose for because of who he is.

Something we don't experience.

[MrsCoffee]

36. It's more than surprising, it's disgusting.

But it is not new. This has been the cycle for centuries and centuries. I expect to see more and more attempts to drive the movement back into silence by attacking women and feminists.

[Voltaire2]

100. No shit.

The excuse making and what-abouts are ludicrous.

[L. Coyote]

14. In his pockets.

Halfway

[bluedigger]

17. It depends on what was authorized on the consent form.

You can't expect anyone to agree to a display of casual physical affection going forward without prior clearance.

[Bettie]

40. And an affidavit afterward

certifying that the contact was as agreed and acceptable.

[Polly Hennessey]

18. If I were a man I would not be photographed with a woman.

In group photos, men on one side of the room and women on the other. No joke. Why no joke, you ask? Because after Al Franken any woman at any time can make an accusation and it will be believed. I, on the other hand, adore men. Feel free to hug me and take photos with me. If you should by chance let an arm or hand slip, I will let you know then that I was not amused.

[sarisataka]

20. Something like this

[MrScorpio]

21. At the local notary office, filing a signed and witnessed consent decree...

Which stipulates proper and authorized hand placement during photo ops.

[hexola]

22. People need to start respecting politicians personal space

And stop these photo op assaults.

Think of how they feel - to have some stranger come up to them and invade their personal space and even ask for a favor!

It must be frightening!

[Irish_Dem]

26. Keep your hands and other body parts to yourself.

Unless invited to do otherwise.
Seems simple to me.

[hexola]

27. A photo-op request is an invitation to do otherwise.

Its not like Franken is going around soliciting photos...

[Irish_Dem]

29. A photo op request is certainly NOT an invitation to put your hands on women.

So if I ask you to take a picture with me, it means you can molest me?
I don't think so Hexola.

Listen, I know most of the men on this forum are educated, intelligent, good men.
But I am so surprised that they are struggling with how to behave with women.

[hexola]

33. A walk-up photo request certainly IS an invitation to put your hands on anyone.

Its like "Hey can I get a picture with you so we can look like were friends" - that's what these requests are.

Part of that is putting ones arm around each other - man or woman. Like "Hey man - look I hung out with Al Franken!"

Big difference from the George Bush/David Copperfield photo op butt grabbing.

[Irish_Dem]

39. Hexola, you should not be putting your arm around strangers who are female.

I am trying to help you here, so you don't get into trouble.

[hexola]

45. Asking for a photo-op drops the pretense of "strangers"

You're asking to appear as if you are friends...not strangers.

[LanternWaste]

62. Seems to me the only pretense is in maintaining that a photo request

Seems to me the only pretense is in maintaining that a photo request is equivalent to a hands-on invitation.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. You Have Your Own Definition of Molest

You go ahead with that.

[Irish_Dem]

41. Guys, the women on this board are trying to help you.

Putting your hands on strangers who are female is not a good thing to do.

[ProfessorGAC]

49. I Don't Need Your In This Matter

I've never been accused of doing any such thing because i've never done any such thing. See? No problem. Don't need to be told a thing.

Trying to be familiar and friendly with a stranger who just asked for a picture to be taken with you because you're famous is a slightly different standard.

I have no reason to try to make a stranger feel comfortable in a picture, because i'm never going to be asked by a stranger for an impromptu picture.

That said, you didn't come close to actually responding to what i said.

Putting one's hand around someone's waist when THEY asked to take a picture with you doesn't square with the true definition of molest.

But if you want to take the Republican approach of defining words to mean what you want them to mean, be my guest.

[brush]

63. No one is struggling. All of us have posed for photos with women with no problem where to...

place our hands.

It's usually around the shoulder or waist — but from now on because of the ridiculous waist groper accuser, I myself will be keeping my hands folded in front of me.

[Mike Nelson]

28. It's sad...

...that non-sexual touching may be going away... I have no problem with waist and shoulder touching, in photos. If someone turns suddenly, you might touch accidently; either it's understood or someone says "excuse me." Now, people will worry about losing their job...

[LanternWaste]

67. It's also sad that a firm line being drawn is falsely projected onto all platonic contact.

It's also sad that a firm line being drawn against harassment is falsely projected onto all platonic contact. (Hint for the clueless: it ain't)

Biased, hysterical and quite irrational, even. Yet still sad to see that narrative getting traction by those who want it to get traction...

[FarCenter]

31. On the wall, above your head, feet apart.

[zipplewrath]

38. Ask

I've often had theses requests from people where it wasn't obvious what pose they wanted. Everyone has their own "keep out" zones. Some aren't obvious like women with really long hair may not like your hand on their back for example. I've taken to just a very casual, "sure, no problem, where do you want me? Where do you want my arm?". Really, apart from harassment, some people have very specific ideas/hopes/thoughts on the subject and love the chance to "stage manage".

By the way, this is no small part of the character training for Disney employees that take hundreds of these pictures a day.

[lame54]

42. Don't take the photo - it's a trap

[brooklynite]

43. My wife and I have had pictures taken with...

President Obama
President Clinton
Vice-President Biden
Secretary Clinton
Speaker Pelosi

None of them (nor we) have been accused of inappropriate touching/fondling/groping.

Politicians know how to take pictures. It's part of the job.

This is only an issue if you buy into the unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that Republicans are lining up people to incrementally accuse every Democrat of the same thing.

[ret5hd]

56. We don't have to depend on the pugs...

'cause we got you on our side.

[brooklynite]

64. Thank you!

I'll be spending my time and money getting Democrats elected up and down the ticket. We have hundreds of candidates that don't seem to think they're going to be accused of sexual impropriety. But perhaps you know better.

[Denzil_DC]

69. Words that may come back to haunt you in the current climate. n/t

[Demit]

80. Seems to me that a politician not being accused of inappropriate touching is only proof

that no one wanted to accuse the politician. It doesn't prove anything else.

And maybe, now that I think of it, the reason all these accusations are from years ago, before Al Franken was a politician, is because he was in entertainment then. Thus not a politician. Maybe once he was in the Senate he got to "know how to take pictures."

[brooklynite]

81. I believe the Minnesota State Fair photos were taken when he was in office.

[Demit]

88. I stand corrected. Yes, that photo was from 2010.

The photo that doesn't prove an allegation of groping any more than the one with Tina Dupuy does.

I really am at a loss why these two photos were shown at all. Probably because they were already in the public sphere—the women having posted them themselves long ago, as a brag that they had had their picture taken with a celebrity.

[TheFrenchRazor]

113. i too had a picture taken with Hillary; don't remember her grabbing my butt. nt

[mcar]

44. Where would he put his hands when asked for a friendly photos with a man?

[ProfessorGAC]

51. Over The Shoulder I Would Guess

But, he doesn't have to worry about getting the hand too low, on a man.

[cyclonefence]

47. Where does he put his hands when asked for a friendly photo by a man? n/t

[Wounded Bear]

50. There are a lot of men, of all heights, who have been wondering this for years...

[jalan48]

52. Wear big, over-sized gloves.

[ret5hd]

59. If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!!!

Future Dem photo-op booth:

[CTyankee]

57. Hands clasped together, in front of him. A bit stiff but safe.

[dalton99a]

75. Location is important - must not appear to hold penis

[CTyankee]

76. hands clasped together showing his fingers of both hands.

[DesertRat]

61. Where does a short man place his hands when asked for a friendly photo by a tall man?

[nolabear]

66. Ask.

[DesertRat]

72. Always a good idea

[HughBeaumont]

70. THIS is how I pose for all photos going forward:

[ChubbyStar]

71. Alright Alright Alright

I just laughed so hard. Thanks!

[HughBeaumont]

73. The ultimate in "Leaving enough room for Jesus"!

[ChubbyStar]

74. Make sure you are least a bible away! n/t

[dalton99a]

78. Perfect.

[phylny]

82. I actually thought about this.

I haven't met any politicians, but met and had pictures taken with Patrick Dempsey a few years ago. We had our arms on each other's back/waist. Man, he's gorgeous.

Anyway, I was thinking about this with politicians and any public figures - I think they should clasp their hands in front of them. It's ridiculous I know, but that's what I would do.

Unless it's Patrick Dempsey.

[MoonRiver]

84. The answer is, don't touch the women at all, and tell the photographers why.

That being 'I don't want to be Frankend.'

[Vinca]

85. In the current climate, on top of their head.

[Kimchijeon]

86. only after signing a legal waiver and agreement and with two chaperones! /s

All this means is that now either anyone with a grudge, or self-body issues "oh someone touched my fat rolls" has free reign to ruin someone's career, and hurting the credibility of all real victims of actual offenses.

I know it's a dead horse but whatever. I'm still not going to keep silent while more of the same happens. It is unacceptable to abuse the recent trend of supporting abuse victims by pretending you were "abused" by a normal selfie pose or any other normal human interaction.

[MineralMan]

89. What I do is clasp my hands behind my back in photos like that.

That allows close proximity for the photo, but removes any possibility of unwanted contact. With close friends and family, of course, more contact is just fine. We're all a bunch of huggers, anyhow.

Most people are rarely in a situation where strangers pose with us for photos. The hands clasped behind the back thing works a treat for such situations.

[MoonRiver]

92. I think you should clasp them in front,

cause one never knows where those invisible hands could wander.

[MineralMan]

94. No, I don't like being photographed that way.

That looks like I'm protecting my junk or something. Behind the back works just fine.

I've been in many, many group photos where everyone had to crowd together to get in the frame. I figured out the hands behind the back thing when I was still in high school. Anything else felt awkward to me. I was often standing between two girls, and later women, who I only knew casually. Arms had to go somewhere, and behind my back seemed like a good solution.

I've been doing that for over 50 years, now, and have never had a complaint about it. Unlike some people, I actually think about such things, and try to find solutions that work best for me and those around me. Even as a callow youth, such things occurred to me.

The same trick would work for male politicians, too, even at the State Fair where a line of people is waiting to "get their picture took" with the Senator or Governor or whoever. I know it's common to put the arm behind the back of the person next to you. But, it can be awkward in some circumstances. So, I just don't do it. I don't like to ever make anyone uncomfortable in such a situation, so I try to make sure that can't happen.

[MoonRiver]

95. I have always felt uncomfortable when men I don't know well put their hands on me,

even for a photograph. Guess it was my strict upbringing and constant warnings from my parents. Good you have the common sense not to do that. Even if perfectly innocent, it can be perceived otherwise. BUT, perception does not necessarily mean an assault happened.

[Buns_of_Fire]

97. ...which reminds me of my favorite Harlan Ellison story...

The thing is that Harlan Ellison is short, yet he couldn't resist going about with giant showgirl types, all of them topping him by two or three feet.

The story goes, then, that Harlan approached one of these women, fixed her with his glittering eye, and said, “What would you say to a little fuck?”

And she looked down at him and said, “I would say, ‘Hello, little fuck.'”

Yes, I know it's not true. ( https://www.snopes.com/risque/celebrities/ellison.asp )

[HeartachesNhangovers]

98. Put your hands wherever you'd put them

if you were being photographed by yourself.

[Voltaire2]

101. Apparently that would be on an imaginary boob or butt.

DU has lost its mind. This isn’t difficult. Don’t grope people.

[SharonClark]

111. Exactly. And don't do a side body hug with your faces cheek to cheek.

[scarytomcat]

99. I personally am uncomfortable with hugging and kissing even friends

been married over 30 years.
I don't like hugging or being touched by other men.
I get uncomfortable when women want to hug or kiss me, even air kisses.
I especially do think it is appropriate for men to just kiss women in greeting or congratulation situations. Like when Rep Pelosi was passed the gavel as the new Speaker of the House from old Speaker Rep Boehner, he kissed her. I think kissing in such situations is wrong and inappropriate. She should have stepped back from him.
Keep your hands and lips to yourself, simple rule.

[MyNameGoesHere]

102. I have to put my hands on a woman to take a photo?

Is that a rule or something? I don't get it, is this a joke.

[DesertRat]

109. I know, it isn't that hard

You stand beside the person, smile at the camera, no touching required. Takes a few seconds. Easy peasy.

[janterry]

103. People make mistakes

even if they know what they should do, they make mistakes.

I hardly think a mistake is sexual assault.

OTOH, groping is gross.......

[RandiFan1290]

108. Hoverhand

[BlueWI]

112. This is my favorite.

I am going to study this photo till I am truly, truly ready for any future selfie with a stranger!!