To those saying Franken was "railroaded" and deserves "due process".....

[brooklynite]

.....what do you imagine an Ethics investigation would have achieved?

An outraged denial of all the accusations?

A withering cross-examination of the accusers?

A confession under oath that the accusers lied?

A smoking gun document showing that it was all planned?

None of those things would have happened. Franken has already apologized for some behavior and said he doesn't remember things the way others do; that's not a denial. He would have come out of the process still clouded by the accusations, and his best defense would have been "you seated Moore so I should stay as well".

[Botany]

1. what a nasty post

n/t

[brooklynite]

2. Please elaborate...

...a month or so from now, we would have been in exactly the same position, except for the possibility that other members of Congress would have been accused (Washington Post is reportedly investigating up to 30) and some/most of them would have resigned as well.

[Botany]

5. posting that kind of garbage is something a troll does

n/t

[mopinko]

7. this

[shanny]

11. amen

[mythology]

17. As opposed to name calling?

You didn't bother to even try to refute the post.

[Botany]

21. Sorry .... all I have to say is bidi bidi bom bom bidi didi bidi bidi bom bom cada vez cada vez

[Bettie]

18. does kind of feel

"trolly" doesn't it?

And definitely happy that their agenda item has been acted on and executed.

[Tipperary]

54. This poster had an op yesterday that seemed to be gloating at those of us who were upset.

It made me wonder and I found it unkind. Perhaps the poster is happy that a good Dem has been forced from office, but he should not respond with glee in the face of those of us who felt betrayed. If nothing else, it is just bad manners.

[Thor_MN]

133. Nailed it.

[karynnj]

137. He is stating what he believes is the realistic conclusion had Franken opted to stay and have an

investigation. That is not being a troll - even if you disagree. Explaining WHY you disagree and how you think it would play out would be interesting - especially as you have always been a thoughtful poster.

I think it reasonable to say that we may be at the extreme of a pendulum swing where the pendulum had been stuck too far over (but not the extreme - as some things were "too bad" ) where in many industries if you were very powerful, you could get away with many things that should have been career ending. (We all heard Trump's articulation of this where he bragged about himself.)

It will be interesting to see if whether the pendulum swings back at least a little. In Franken's case, it might be that his peers know more than we have heard in the news. The allegations in Conyer's case were far worse and initially the party was willing to stand behind him. While writing this, the Ruth Marcus oped was read -- while the gist was that she did not know enough to know if his behavior was bad enough that he should be forced out, one point made was that the USO photo being out there made him a distraction. Marcus also suggested that they overreacted to Franken partly because they under reacted to Clinton. Here's a link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/was-al-frankens-punishment-fair/2017/12/07/6296f580-db99-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html?utm_term=.c69982fbfe9d

[geardaddy]

138. +1

[yallerdawg]

57. Could you ever have imagined...

supporting the position of our Democratic representatives and the actions taken by the Democrat accused, and, incidentally. supporting victims who have stayed silent for years...

...would make you a troll?

[brooklynite]

64. Ive been called worse around here...

...I’m still trying to understand the “plan” I apparently have coming together.....

[marble falls]

141. You make a lot of good points.

[brush]

69. Give it a rest pls and go back and re-examine the shadiness of Tweeden's accusation...

that started it all.

Her connections to Hannity, Roger Stone, birtherness and the take down of Franken concocted with her co-workers at that right wing radio station she works for don't raise doubts with you?

Not to mention the photos of her actually groping a guitarist's ass on that same USO tour that the gag, non-grope photo she submitted as evidence of Franken allegedly groping her (not, his hands weren't touching her and others there said she was in on it and only pretending to sleep).

If you think that doesn't need an investigation to sort out the truth, well, I feel for you.

[TheDebbieDee]

98. Elimnating sexual harrassment is something that

could have waited until AFTER Dems regain power
By throwing Franken under the bus, Dems have quieted one of the loudest voices against Sessions.

Dems have enough on their plate trying to fight the Russians, the republicans and Trump! Why bench one of your best players and risk losing the game?

Franken could have continued to go after Sessions while the ethics investigations went on...

Dems need to stay focused on putting checks on Trump, the republicans and the Russians today, get power, then work to eradicate sexual harassment!

[BootinUp]

3. Train wreck.

[hlthe2b]

50. Indeed. He's been on a roll

[sabbat hunter]

65. If you think it is trolling

why not report it instead of responding to it?

[Ferrets are Cool]

124. Agreed

[SharonClark]

157. It wasn"t nasty, you just disagreed with it.

[Merlot]

4. You're speculating, you have no idea how it would have come out.

But it owuld have been due process, which is what we should expect.

[brooklynite]

6. There's speculation a-plenty around here.

[shanny]

9. That's what online forums do.

The World's Greatest Deliberative Body should be held to a higher standard, don't you think?

[ProfessorGAC]

10. You'd Sure Know

What direction does your witch hunt now take? That one has been duly "salemized"

[Bengus81]

160. Yeah...I'm speculating that in this pic SHE was not groped or abused...

Although HER arm around Franken without HIS approval might go down as GROPING............

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

59. Precisely! Don't think it was asking too much...

especially when you look at Franken's track record. I have ZERO problem taking the accusations SERIOUSLY... that's WAY different than requiring that we believe they are TRUE.

What I want to know is WTF changed, where, suddenly, Franken had to be thrown under the proverbial bus and run over 28 times?!?! Someone please answer the damn question!!

[TCJ70]

8. He was run out of town on some of the thinnest garbage...

...I've seen thrown at someone. Then, when he tried to acknowledge and not discount the feelings of others, it was used against him by his own "friends".

[angrychair]

30. Glad you consider the victims feelings in your statement

My crusade has not to past judgement on Franken but, as as someone that was sexually assaulted as a child by two different people, to point out the language and tone people use in their defense of Franken and gently remind them that when you use terms and phrases like this that all but condemn the accusations as lies and the people garbage that before even you actually know the truth yourself sends a clear signal:

speaking out against the powerful or wealthy is never going to work out for you and it’s safer and healthier to keep your mouth shut

I would hate to be these people, from the accusers of Moore to Franken to the poor child that doesn’t want to be touched anymore, you have to be willing to let yourself get sexually assaulted all over again, having ever word analyzed, every action questioned, every motive doubted.

Memories are funny things. They don’t always want to be discovered. They are not always perfect. Sometimes they are not even there anymore. It’s the way our brain works.

Please keep all in mind when you attack...sorry...”question”...these stories and examine every detail of their lives.

[TCJ70]

35. What solid evidence is there of actual wrong doing?

We have a crass picture of no contact. Apologized for...apology accepted...issue resolved. I'm not going to be more outraged than the person making an accusation.

Other than that, we have people saying things happened. That's it. That's all there is. If that's all it takes to get someone out of the Senate we're in for a rough ride.

Some of the accusations don't even make sense. The boob grab one is particularly egregious. You'd have to have a second elbow or be Mr. Fantastic in order to pull off what she describes. Held it for 5-10 seconds in front of a camera and there's only a happy picture to show for it? A semi-critical look at what's actually out there should be all it takes for anyone to say, "Hey wait a minute!" about this.

If something actually happened, that's awful and should be investigated fully. Franken's case won't be given that opportunity.

[Ilsa]

108. This is part of the problem: we can't look at any of his behavior because

anyone questioning it or the victims -- whether they felt uncomfortable, or worse, lost empowerment, needed medical help, etc -- is told they are wrong for wanting to discuss it, check validity of accusers' accounts, and find out how far these episodes went.

I know the rate of false accusers is exceedingly low, but are we to believe an accuser who was "touched and it made me uncomfortable for a minute" who won't disclose their identity or details of the event? It sounds like an opportunity for false accusations to skyrocket for some other agenda.

Harold Ford is suing his accuser and the employer who fired him based on her accusation.

[Bengus81]

164. Yeah...I call this pic FLIMSY nonsense. I also call it BULL SHIT!!

Unless you want to level a charge of GROPING against HER.

[Bengus81]

162. And come next November when Frankens seat FLIPS Dems will be shaking their heads....

As to just HOW that could have happened and how QUICKLY it happened. Meanwhile Roy Moore is still SAFELY in his Bama seat voting to repeal SS,Medicare and Medicaid.

[Irish_Dem]

12. I agree with you Brooklyn. Franken is not the hill to die on.

An extended investigation would have been damaging and I think Franken knows that.

We have to do the right thing or we are just like the GOP crime family.

[ChubbyStar]

15. The hill to die on?

I keep hearing that expression lately.....

[ret5hd]

37. It's in the notes at the bottom of the email.

Oh wait...you didn't see this.

[ChubbyStar]

41. Well shit, I missed the email?

That stinks!

[womanofthehills]

118. More f**king damaging is a republican senator from Minn.

just "roll over" dems and let the republicans blow up the world.

[Denzil_DC]

13. Railroading.

This post, and your many replies today, seem to be attempting to do that in the face of genuine concerns voiced by many.

It's not a good look.

[Horizens]

14. For sure, here's one thing that EXACTLY what would have happened for sure.

Franken would have had the opportunity everyone deserve to clear his good name.

[FreepFryer]

16. Putting due process in quotes (as if undeserved/inapplicable) is a particularly noxious touch. (n/t)

[ChubbyStar]

24. Excellent point n/t

[brooklynite]

74. I put it in quotes because I was quoting from other posts here...

...they taught me that in English class.

[FreepFryer]

78. Well doing so w/o attribution creates a subtext - I teach about that in English class. (n/t)

[brooklynite]

87. Citations in the title line are difficult because of space limits...

But if it'll make you feel better...

"It's wrong to railroad a person. Any person. It must be said and repeated.

"On the Franken matter, do you believe in due process or mob rule?

[FreepFryer]

93. My point stands. Intended or not, it reads as dismissive of the essence of American justice.

imho, dismissiveness of due process in this context is the problem, not the solution.

[ChubbyStar]

129. I am so loving this

The excuses are paltry and weak. There wasn't enough space to explain myself? I laughed my ass off. Kick ass FreepFryer!

[jalan48]

19. Is it Kirsten Gillibrand for President time?

[delisen]

20. He made a respectful denial. If the due process mechanism needs

repair the senators need to repair and we need to verify.

It is possible to respect persons making charges and be true to the democratic principle of due process.

from Franken's resignation speech:

Over the last few weeks, a number of women have come forward to talk about how they felt my actions had affected them. I was shocked. I was upset. But in responding to their claims, I also wanted to be respectful of that broader conversation. Because all women deserve to be heard and their experiences taken seriously. I think that was the right thing to do. I also think it gave some people the false impression that I was admitting to doing things that in fact I haven't done. Some of the allegations against me are simply not true. Others I remember very differently. I said at the outset that the ethics committee was the right venue for these allegations to be heard and investigated and evaluated on their merits. That I was prepared to cooperate fully and that I was confident in the outcome.
You know, an important part of the conversation we have been having the last few months has been about how men abuse their power and privilege to hurt women. I am proud that during my time in the Senate, I have used my power to be a champion of women. And that I have earned a reputation as someone who respects the women I work alongside every day. I know there is a different picture of me painted over the last few weeks, but I know who I really am. Serving in the United States Senate has been the great honor of my life. I know in my heart that nothing I have done as a senator, nothing has brought dishonor on this institution. I am confident that the ethics committee would agree.

[Jarqui]

22. WRONG!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/politics/speech-al-franken-transcript/index.html

Then the conversation turned to me. Over the last few weeks, a number of women have come forward to talk about how they felt my actions had affected them. I was shocked. I was upset. But in responding to their claims, I also wanted to be respectful of that broader conversation. Because all women deserve to be heard and their experiences taken seriously. I think that was the right thing to do. I also think it gave some people the false impression that I was admitting to doing things that in fact I haven't done. Some of the allegations against me are simply not true. Others I remember very differently. I said at the outset that the ethics committee was the right venue for these allegations to be heard and investigated and evaluated on their merits. That I was prepared to cooperate fully and that I was confident in the outcome.

He denied a number of the allegations - not admitting to "doing things that in fact I haven't done"
He took exception to other allegations by remembering them "very differently".
He was confident that after review by the ethics committee, he would be cleared of wrongdoing.

So Franken told us pretty clearly what he expected of the ethics investigation.

And he has quite a good basis for saying so because the evidence is so questionable. Look at what has come out on Leeann and her ties to Trump Jr & Hannity and Tom Arnold's tweets since along with the other folks who were there and how she interacted with Franken since 2006 and her specifics that have been refuted since. The photo looks staged - as a joke. You cannot look at her claims now without suspecting a hit job.

Another of the named accusers was a Trump supporter who defended Trump & Roy Moore yesterday.

A third one tweeted complimentary stuff about Franken in 2009 - why would she compliment a groper in 2009?

Four are unnamed.

I'm not saying he's innocent for sure but the claims don't pass the smell test for me yet.

[rzemanfl]

26. Excellent concise response. The whole thing was ratfucking. n/t

[dalton99a]

32. +1

[FarCenter]

36. +1 - Ultimately there would have been some motion of censure, but no expulsion by 2/3 vote.

The Ethics Committee hearing would take some time, the media furor would die down, evidence would be developed or not, and cooler heads would prevail.

[Old Vet]

154. Well said friend, Would of been intresting hearing Tweeten explain how she can grab a guys ass......

[VOX]

61. Cant say it any better.

[dhill926]

75. thank you...

[geardaddy]

139. +1

[nini]

23. We don't know what an investigation would give us

That's why you have them.

[rzemanfl]

27. +1 n/t.

[Fullduplexxx]

39. We dont know what an investigation of russian collusion could possibly give us..... oh wait

[rzemanfl]

25. Good grief. n/t

[Cattledog]

28. He did deny the claims yesterday.

[bench scientist]

29. You dont know any of that.

You don’t know what may or may not have happened. He still has the right to the hearing. If we would have held a hearing no one would have to imagine shit. There’d be a record . Right now there’s nothing but allegations and a rush to judgment.The decent and fair thing to do would have been to hold a hearing.
He said yesterday some of the things he was accused of simply are not true. THAT’s a denial.
The GOP is going to laugh in the face of decency when they seat Roy Moore.

[NanceGreggs]

31. I've not seen anyone ...

... here or elsewhere, who expressed any expectation of any of these things:

An outraged denial of all the accusations

A withering cross-examination of the accusers

A confession under oath that the accusers lied

A smoking gun document showing that it was all planned

Why do you feel a need to attribute over-the-top expectations to people who haven't expressed them?

[ChubbyStar]

43. Sounds like High School Musical

My daughter loved that when she was 7.

[Cary]

68. That's up to Al Franken, isn't it?

Al is a brilliant man. I cannot imagine that he waived these expectations without a lot of thought and reasons.

That's not to say you're wrong in bringing it up. That may be the whole point of waiving these things. The truth will out and if it's shown that Al is innocent then he is a martyr of sorts.

Right?

[NanceGreggs]

89. Wait - what?

When did Franken express that those were the things he was expecting had a hearing gone forward?

[Cary]

90. I didn't say that. I don't know what Al knows or doesn't know.

[NanceGreggs]

92. You said ...

... "I cannot imagine that he waived these expectations ..."

That's why I questioned it.

[Cary]

97. You left off "...without a lot of thought and reasons."

What those thoughts and reasons are, I can only guess.

I suspect they had polls and focus groups and deemed their best strategy going forward was for Al to resign and then hammer the Republicans.

As I said I am only guessing. They could all be incompetent idiots, like so many here are so gleefully asserting.

[NanceGreggs]

101. I think we're talking at cross purposes.

I reiterated the "expectations" set out in the OP - i.e. An outraged denial of all the accusations. a withering cross-examination of the accusers, a confession under oath that the accusers lied, a smoking gun document showing that it was all planned

Do you really think Franken expected any of those things to happen?

I'm quite certain that he wasn't picturing an ethics hearing to play out like an L&O courtroom scene.

[Cary]

120. I have no idea Nance

Anything is possible, isn't it?

Our goals are much more important than Al Franken, yet here we are tearing ourselves apart at DU. Is that going to help us? Or is this the kind of discord and discontent that Russian trolls gleefully try to sow?

It's a lot worse when we sow it ourselves.

You are always the voice of reason. Isn't the voice of reason here to just drop this and move forward? I'm sorry about Al, as sorry as anyone but we have to beat Republicans. If we don't beat them, nothing else matters.

[NanceGreggs]

135. Okay, fine.

But I take exception to the OP attributing expectations of "withering cross-exams" and "smoking gun documents" to those of us who wished that Franken had his hearing.

I don't think any of us were expecting any such scenarios. And Franken, who has been in countless hearings and Q & A sessions, certainly knows that that's not how these things play out.

The implication in the OP is that those of us who wanted a full hearing are idiots who anticipated "smoking guns" and "tearful confessions", etc. Most adults have seen trials and hearings on TV, and know that those things don't happen.

[Cary]

140. You know I agree with you.

I always do.

[Cary]

95. I'm just saying we shouldn't jump to conclusions

And I'm saying that I think Al Franken has a strategy here. What that strategy is, exactly, I don't know. But I have to believe he weighed all of the facts and collaborated with Chuck Shumer.

I could be wrong. They may just be reacting without thinking but right here and right now I don't believe that and I don't believe we ought to be moping around like we are.

[Tipperary]

114. What an excellent response. I thank you for that. So disgusted by what I am reading here.

It makes me wonder about motive.

[LanternWaste]

33. A valid mechanism to determine degree of censure or culpability.

"Ethics investigation would have achieved?"

A valid mechanism to determine degree of censure or culpability. However, as that does not validate your most consistent narrative, I completely understand why you dismiss it; though I'm not yet sure if you're Tom, Bert or William Huggins.

[Cary]

34. What, exactly, do you imagine you're achieving?

Keep in mind that I'm not advocating anything with respect to this particular incident. I don't see the point, which is why I'm asking you what you think you're achieving.

As for due process, and the right to face one's accusers, that is an end in and of itself. I can give you real examples where female accusers lied, such as the Gary Dotson case. I believe in due process, scare quotes or not.

And I suggest you might think long and hard about this one because you want due process too. Leave the lawlessness to the Republicans.

Other than that critical point, I don't see the need to wedge ourselves. The people who made these decisions, including Al Franken himself, decided. Whether they did that because Al Franken was guilty, or whether it was calculated for political purposes I do not not know. However someone else here suggested your post was trolling, and I have to say that it strikes me that way too. Especially when you put the words due process in scare quotes. I find that disturbing.

But I offer you due process. What, exactly, do you imagine you're achieving?

[Demit]

44. Looks like pot-stirring.

Why people engage in it has always been a mystery to me.

[Cary]

51. Agreed

What a great opportunity to sow discord and and discontent, and here we have all kinds of posters jumping on that opportunity.

I suppose why people engage in this runs the gamut. Some are self-loathing liberals, like Susan Sarandon. Some, I am sure, are Russian or "conservative" trolls who seem to have hit the jackpot. Some, I imagine, really think sowing discord and discontent will advance their cause.

The only solution I can come up with is to tune out the noise and keep our focus on our goals.

[Tipperary]

60. This horrible political episode is teaching me much about my fellow duers.

I have been very much surprised. And saddened. So far I am not sure what to make of it.

[Cary]

66. I hear you.

Be a voice of reason. Keep your eyes on the prize. Identify noise and do what you can to re-direct it.

That's the best answer I have. I have posters here trying so hard to change the subject from whatever it is to some nonsense about me personally. Calmly and persistently tell them that they are changing the subject and that the subject of my person is not open for discussion. You can re-direct them back if you wish, but why bother? I repeat that until they stop.

That's just one example. The point is stay on point and don't let them divert you. This horrible political episode is just another diversion. Their goal here is to sow discord and discontent. Deny them that goal.

[Tipperary]

76. Thank you for that excellent advice. I find myself just closing my computer and walking away.

Some of the posts are not what I would have expected to see here.

[Cary]

80. It's been like that for me since about 2008

But you know what? It's reality.

It's not so pleasant to realize that at the end of the day we liberals are capable of as much stupidity as "conservatives." But we are. This issue demonstrates that. We're also vulnerable to wedging.

Knowledge is power, even if it's not pleasant.

The best and only answer I have found, after a lot of research, is what I related to you. Keep focused, Keep simple.

If you come up with something better please share.

[Tipperary]

100. You actually made me feel better about the recent days and the posts I have seen here.

I do appreciate that!

[Cary]

113. Awesome!

But I don't have that power. Only you do, and it's a matter of how you frame the issues.

Try not to be demoralized. Give them hell. Hey if we go down we go down together in flames and glory!

[MFM008]

38. I've said repeatedly

Franken apologized for the perception of the "accusers".
Like when I talk to loud and someone tells me I'm talking to loud and I apologize because they feel it's to loud and I think..what are they talking about?
This was an orchestrated effort starting with a known republican supporter and moved into the ridiculous with anonymous claims and women who were " fondled" in front of husband's and crowds.

[stonecutter357]

40. Disgusting OP, Is this some Fox & Friends bullshit?

[Drahthaardogs]

42. Why do you post such utter nonsense?

Would you like your career destroyed based upon anonymous complaints and no one even bothers an investigation?

So is that the new standard? Don't bother if we probably cannot substantiate anything?

You are willing to destroy a man with less evidence than an NFL replay requires.

No one KNOWS what an ethics investigation would have found
That's why you ACTUALLY do it!

[TheCowsCameHome]

45. 30+ of his fellow Democratic senators took him down,

and that alone is disgusting.

[kcr]

46. Uh, it would find out the truth?

It's funny how the questions people ask can reveal so much.

[genxlib]

47. Two major points

Number 1 - Due Process should have been followed to set the precedent that accusation is not enough to ruin someone.

Number 2 - Such Due Process would have taken place in an environment where truth is protected under threat of perjury. There is no such protection when issues are adjudicated in the court of public opinion.

[jonno99]

99. *This* nt

[Demsrule86]

48. Right wing smear machine...no chance to defend himself against two righties liars...and

four or five anonymous folks... no one should be forced to resign with such flimsy evidence...It is open season on Democrats now that those in our party sold out Franken...damned disgrace. All involved will not get my vote in any primary for the presidency.

[TheCowsCameHome]

53. Not just the right wing machine.

Our esteemed party leaders - are you listening, Chuckie? - did a nice hit job on him.

Screw them. I will never forgive them for what they did to one of out finest senators.

[Cary]

58. Stop.

Just stop.

[Demsrule86]

72. I am very angry also...

[Cary]

56. We are at war.

That is not hyperbole. Our enemy is real. Our enemy is dangerous.

We will have casualties along the way.

Al Franken, himself, deemed his own resignation to be the best way forward. Think about that as you decree "It is open season on Democrats now that those in our party sold out Franken...damned disgrace." Seriously, think about the irony of your own declaration here of "open season." You're smarter than that.

Snap out of it. Look forward.

[Demsrule86]

67. I think Franken was wrong to resign...but really he was forced out.

It is open season because leadership and other Dems caved to the GOP smear machine and got rid of Franken...forcing him to resign. Who will they target next I wonder? I am looking forward (sarcasm) to endless accusations...this is a shit show and it will hurt us badly...already we have to fight for a purple seat in 20 that we shouldn't have to...the GOP will keep coming and until we stand and fight, we will not win...oh I always vote Democratic,but that won't be enough I fear.

[Cary]

71. You're entitled to your opinion but you don't know that

There are a lot of other possibilities including Al Franken's guilt. I am not suggesting that he is guilty, just pointing out that you're jumping to conclusions.

If it turns out that Democrats forced Al Franken out unjustly there will be consequences. There are always consequences.

[Demsrule86]

77. The media is saying Schumer called him multiple time asking him to resign... many reports...

are they all lying? He was forced out. We will never know if it was just...and frankly I don't give two fucks about the accusations...I think they are ridiculous...we made ourselves look weak and the GOP will be back for more.

[Cary]

81. Be like water, DEmsrule86

“Simplicity, patience, compassion.
These three are your greatest treasures.
Simple in actions and thoughts, you return to the source of being.
Patient with both friends and enemies,
you accord with the way things are.
Compassionate toward yourself,
you reconcile all beings in the world.”
― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

[Demsrule86]

158. They will not seat a replacement for Conyers. We will be down one until the elections...with close

votes were are surrendering to the GOP...it is insane. I can't go along with this...it is stupid. Mark my words, Franken's replacement will be treated like Garland...the will let the 'voters' decide and ram their anti-woman agenda (anti-everyone really) down our throats maybe by one vote. This was one of the stupidest things Democrats have ever done... to allow the GOP to mount a campaign against one of our own and then pile on. We will regret it.

[Cary]

82. And this....

“A leader is best
When people barely know he exists
Of a good leader, who talks little,
When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,
They will say, “We did this ourselves.”
― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

[Cary]

84. This too...

“all streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. humility gives it its power. if you want to govern the people, you must place yourself below them. if you want to lead the people, you must learn how to follow them.”
― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

[Demit]

86. Unfortunately in this war, we've handed the foe a loaded weapon.

We've let them know that all they have to do is plant a story, start the rumor mill going, and we won't put up a fight. We'll get rid of who they want gotten rid of. We'll turn our backs on one of our own because he has become a "distraction." We don't start the "distraction," they do. But we finish it for them and prove that it works. That's what's meant by open season.

Ratfucking is real and the Republicans are pros at it. Remember Acorn? Remember Shirley Sherrod? Remember the bogus Planned Parenthood video? Remember the Move On "Betrayus" ad (that wasn't an actual ad anyway)? Jesus, remember the Brooks Brothers riot?

Ratfucking is real and it WORKS.

[Cary]

88. The history of war is a dialectic

One side develops a fortification. The other side develops a breach.

You can see it in fortress walls. It's quite fascinating.

Our fortification has been breached. That was inevitable. Now we have to learn how to deal with that.

It never ends, unless you give up.

[Demit]

102. I wish I knew what our side considers the fortification.

It's not standing together and fighting the other side, that's for sure. It's saying Oh, yoo hoo, other side! Need help breaching our wall? How about we give you a hand with that? For good measure we'll throw one of our best marksmen over the side.

[Cary]

111. Demit, DU is not the real world

We are the majority. It's just a matter of getting people out to vote.

I am talking here about keeping things simple. You see people here sowing discord and discontent, and blah blah blah. Why would they sow discord and discontent and blah blah blah? They sow discord and discontent and blah blah blah because they want Republicans to win. They want you to think they have some other agenda, like making us better or free speech or whatever.

Occam's Razor, when you have a complex question with multiple possible answers, choose the easiest one and work with that. Well, the easiest answer is that those sowing discord and discontent amongst Democrats want Republicans to win. 46% of the electorate doesn't vote. Sowing discord and discontent keeps those 46% from voting. If there is low turnout Republicans win.

Al Franken is wonderful but he's not going to make or break us. Come on.

"For good measure we'll throw one of our best marksmen over the side." Does saying this and wringing your hands help us defeat Republicans? No, so stop it. Just stop. It's over. Move on. Al will be fine. We will be fine.

Our fortification is our majority. Their breach is their ability to demoralize our majority into not voting, and we have to turn out in large enough numbers to defeat their voter suppression. The way to defeat their breach is to not be demoralized.

Decide which side you're on and demand that everyone else do the same. Both sides don't do it. That's bullshit.

[Demit]

127. I don't know why you picked me to preach to but, in your words,

just stop. You're awful at it.

[marble falls]

143. Good series of points. We're angry but we need to look at the bigger picture. Thankyou ...

for a wonderful exchange that shows how a divergent can stay calm and informative. Good stuff. I learned a lot.

[tonedevil]

107. The thing that sucks...

is our fortification has been breached from the inside.

[Cary]

112. Read my post, above

You're right but it is what it is.

What do we do about it? I stated my case in my previous post. Keep your focus. Don't aid and abet their negativity.

[Demsrule86]

52. Based on your OP maybe we should ask for a list of Democrats the GOP wanst us to trash and

Just kick them out...saves time. (sarcasm). After all being pure in the eyes of Republicans is so so important. Why they will immediately vote for us or what have you...complete sarcasm. Purity is next to Godliness and all...just ask Roy Moore.

[brooklynite]

62. I could care less what Republicans think...

I care what voters think, especially women.

And before you tell me that women supported Franken and wanted him to say, I’m talking about ordinary voters, not the handful of political activists who hang out on blog sites.

[Demsrule86]

63. You can't knuckle under to the right wing smear machine...what everytime...

a candidate is attacked we dump him? Bad idea...loser Idea...permanent minority idea.

[tonedevil]

106. I say the proof is in the pudding...

Last edited Fri Dec 8, 2017, 06:08 PM - Edit history (1)

at this point maybe this won't be an unmitigated disaster for the Democratic party. If Roy Moore is denied a Senate seat next week one could see some 14 dimension chess going on with this. If he wins then one of the strongest voices for good has been removed for absolutely no gain. If next year when Minnesota has two Senatorial elections a Republican wins one of them the Democrats will be even more powerless than they are now, as difficult as that is to achieve. If this whole thing becomes a redux of Acorn and Shirley Sherrod Democrats will be a laughing stock and never be able to make it past first period with their lunch money ever again.

[geardaddy]

119. Have you polled MN voters?

[womanofthehills]

123. The ordinary voters don't even follow the news

Have you talked to an ordinary voter? God, the women in my book club are all well read, they are all dems and well educated and I know if I asked them what they thought about was was happening with Al, only about 2 would know what I'm talking about.

[USALiberal]

167. I think you mean "You couldn't care less" maybe???? n/t

[brooklynite]

169. In Defense of I Could Care LessSlate

There are several good reasons why people might say, "I could care less." And no, the list does not include "because they're stupid and have no idea how logic works." It turns out, there are a number of things about English that conspire to make "I could care less" a less irrational phrase than it might seem.

1. Sarcasm

A number of language writers have suggested that "could care less" has a sarcastic reading, conveying something like "Ha! As if there were something in the world I could care less about." There are some American Yiddish-inflected phrases that work this way, like "I should be so lucky!" (meaning "there's no way I'm ever gonna be that lucky&quot or "I should care!" (why should I care?). Even if "could care less" didn't originate from a sarcastic intent, it matches up well enough with these other forms in the language to help give it staying power.

2. Positive/negative phrase pairs

Why use "could care less" if we also have "couldn't care less"? There are other pairs of phrases in English about which you could ask the same question. Why say "that will teach you to leave your car unlocked" when you really mean "that will teach you not to leave your car unlocked." Some other phrases that can mean the same thing with or without the negation:

You know squat about that. You don't know squat about that.
I wonder whether we can make that work. I wonder whether we can't make that work.
You shouldn't go, I think. You shouldn't go, I don't think.
I can hardly wait. I can't hardly wait.
Again, there's an existing framework that helps "could care less" blend right in.

3. Implied comparison

Evidence for the use of "could care less" goes back to 1955, with "couldn't care less" appearing only about 10 years before that. But long before that the phrase "No one could care less than I" was in use. Think about how you might respond to such a phrase in a certain type of conversation. "I've never been so insulted in my life! How dare they imply such a thing! No one could care less for the trappings of fame than I!"

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/03/18/why_i_could_care_less_is_not_as_irrational_or_ungrammatical_as_you_might.html

[LisaM]

55. I think that it would have set a precedent for other to also go before the Ethics Committee

if it was warranted.

For whatever reason, he chose a different path.

[diva77]

70. He absolutely deserves due process. Should we shut down the Supreme Court now - that's rigged too

It's a horrible situation; but let's not throw out "due process" with the bath water

[Vinnie From Indy]

73. I find your opinion grotesque and un-Amerucan!

Cheers!

[Baitball Blogger]

79. They would have established a fair test case. Instead, the Dem Senators who supported

this push are getting blowback.

[BamaRefugee]

83. Coming from Alabama, the OP reminds me of old time gatherings down South:

"What do you mean wait til the Judge can sort things out??? That n****r DID NOT STEP OFF THE SIDEWALK when my wife passed by!!! I don't care if nobody else saw it!
GET A ROPE!

[Vinca]

85. Well, imagine your loved one suddenly accused of similar offenses and let go

from a job without a proper hearing. Does that seem fair to you? Anyone can say anything about anybody. I see several things to be suspicious about with Franken's accusers. This is getting to be like the Salem witch trials.

[brooklynite]

94. Franken wasn't let go

and he left without emphatically denying all the charges.

[Vinca]

128. No, he was pushed out. And he made a point of saying yesterday that it had been assumed

he was admitting guilt because he was sensitive to how the women felt, but that he was not. In any case, I imagine you'd be squawking to high heaven if this sort of thing happened to someone you knew. Due process, not mob rule.

[blimablam]

91. Here's a good article on questions that need to be asked

https://www.mediaite.com/opinion/the-most-mind-blowing-aspects-of-al-frankens-demise/

[brooklynite]

96. You know, some people have asked why I keep responding to posts on Franken...

...perhaps if the people who are upset stopped using over-the top comments like "Salem Witch Trials", Human Sacrifice" and "Hit Job" I would.

[awesomerwb1]

104. Maybe you shouldn't wait for

those "trigger" words to stop posting re: Franken.

[rainin]

115. Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job

Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job Hit job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[womanofthehills]

125. So you are telling us you are reactive??

[brooklynite]

130. If I answer you, Does that make me reactive?

[flotsam]

131. Yesterday was a Kangaroo Court

and you are looking a bit like a pouched marsupial supporter...

[Egnever]

136. Oh I think it is pretty clear why you keep responding

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029939497

You and your pals sat around a dinner table congratulating yourselves on your decision. You are trying to defend the shit show you cheered on.

[Neema]

103. So we shouldn't give a great senator due process because you've decided nothing will come of it?

Interesting. I guess you have insider knowledge the rest of us don't.

[pandr32]

105. For starters the accusers would have to lose the shield of anonymity

Add to that the fact that context would have been added to each account.
Already Tweeden is saying she never wanted an investigation and accepted Franken's apology for apparently making her uncomfortable. Since she has said she never wanted him to resign.
Tweeden's coerced accusation set the foundation for the ones that followed. It was a plan.
Don't you think this would have come out in an investigation?

[kacekwl]

109. Complete nonsense.

[lapucelle]

110. Some have more active imaginations than others.

It's probably unwise for those whose imaginations run wild to assume that others are likewise afflicted.

[rainin]

116. That's strange. I listed to his speech twice and I heard it differently.

I absolutely heard a denial. Perhaps another listen will clarify it for you.

[Adrahil]

117. Simple... I think that some of the accusations are BS.

I think Tweeden's accusations are blown WAY out of proportion.

I think some of the other accusations sound like opportunism too.

I wanted to hear some actual discussion of the merits of these accusations. Most did not rise to the level of sexual harassment in my mind.

[alarimer]

121. It would mean his accusers could not hide behind anonymity.

And they could also be made to testify under oath, upon pain of perjury. Although it is a Congressional ethics commission and not a court of law, it is the only way to assure that the accused (and the accuser) gets a fair hearing. Otherwise, it's just hearsay and can be easily dismissed as nonsense. Which, in my opinion, is what these accusations are.

[BoneyardDem]

122. It appears you are still unable to find any Republicans to bash

too bad really, you could have use your penchant for caustic writing, to vilify the "other" team

[rainin]

126. Have you read this?

Some of us were smart enough to put this together already. We'll give you time to catch up.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029950477

[DeminPennswoods]

134. Franken apologized and took responsibility

because he is a genuinely decent human being and that is what this kind of person does. One needs dig no deeper than that.

[Locut0s]

142. It's the due process itself that is important.

"Due process" or some form of it is what differentiates a democracy from any number of other alternate forms of governance.

Note that I personally think it's quite likely that Franken may be guilty of some kind of sexual misconduct. But I still don't think this is how it should play out.

[brooklynite]

144. I dont recall anyone demanding due process for Anthony Weiner or Eric Massa...

[FreepFryer]

145. "Common sense grows in Brooklyn"

Weiner went — and in an appropriate bow to the weird, did so in a news conference. Much of the press piled on. It hardly mattered, it seemed, that Weiner intended his pictures, as lewd and strange as they might be, for specific recipients. Most of the women solicited his attention and the one who appeared on the “Today” show (along with two lawyers) said she had reciprocated in kind. Traci Nobles, one of six known Weiner Twitterettes, told a clearly astonished Ann Curry that she was “flattered” by Weiner’s attention and that she had, in obvious homage to Edith Piaf, no regrets (“Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien”). So much for a parade of victims.

In fact, there are victims. One is due process, which envisions a procedure other than a lynch mob for Congress to rid itself of a miscreant. Another is common decency, which means you stand up for someone who’s done no legal wrong. And you have to ask yourself what sort of precedent is being set. What sort of world is it where a digital Peeping Tom such as Andrew Breitbart gets hold of a picture meant for others and displays it to the world — not to reveal a crime but merely to titillate and mortify? For this, Breitbart even took over a Weiner news conference, acting as if he had done a public service and deserved recognition — maybe a Pulitzer Prize. Rupert Murdoch can make the presentation.

More than a tree grows in Brooklyn. Common sense does, too.

Whole weeks — eons in the age of Twitter — have gone by since Weiner resigned, so that we now have some perspective. We may ask, “What was that all about?” It was about many things, not the least of them being what Clarence Thomas once appropriately called “a high-tech lynching.” The rope surely will be used again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/anthony-weiner-victim-of-a-digital-mob/2011/07/11/gIQAbcyX9H_story.html

[flotsam]

147. Weiner resign when explicit proof was published

Massa resigned after his ethics hearing began-neither was hounded out by their "supposed" "Colleagues"...

[AntiFascist]

146. Franken is in the Senate to serve the people of Minnesota...

NOT to serve the political aspirations of fellow Democrats. We don't know if there may have been ulterior political motives of his accusers and many of us suspect there were. An Ethics Investigation, which Franken welcomed, may have shed more light on this.

[LexVegas]

148. What were Bernie's political motives in doing this? I am not seeing it.

[AntiFascist]

150. Hitching his wagon to the anti-sexual harassment movement...

by taking a zero tolerance stance. This is all great when known accusers are making valid claims, but in Franken's case this is debatable. Placing all claims of sexual harassment on the same level playing field is great for Bernie and the others and they are taking the highest road possible, but it also diminishes the impact of the more extreme cases such as those of Moore and Trump.

[LBM20]

149. B U L L S H I T ! ! !

[Lunabell]

151. Agreed

I am sick of people defending him and his behavior. You people are repulsive if you defend a sexual predator. We are better than the GOP. At least I thought so..

[LBM20]

155. "Sexual predator?" Are you serious? What hyperbolic nonsense. ZERO evidence of that! ZERO!

[still_one]

152. I get it, Franken doesnt deserve to defend himself, thanks for letting us know where you are

coming from

[KelleyKramer]

153. That's not surprising at all coming from you

Flame bait

Not gonna play

Have a nice day

[rockfordfile]

156. Americans see that he was railroaded.

People at the gym and other places see that. It's clear what happened some people fell for roger stone smear. Embarrassing considering this is the kind of smear that Nixon types do. This is a bfd on those Democratic Senators.

[Bengus81]

159. Ok...we all know how much you hate Franken,he's gone so move along

[brooklynite]

161. My wife and I gave thousands to Al Franken for his campaigns...

...and I've had a private sit-down with him to talk politics.

But if attacking me helps you work through your anger, swing away.

[Bengus81]

163. LOL..sure you did

I just got back from flying the Space shuttle but keep posting all your furor against Franken we've all come to expect it at this point. Gosh you MET with him? Have a groping pic to share like this one:

[brooklynite]

165. You know I dont hide my identity here, right? Just plug it into the FEC database.

Unless you’re afraid of what you’ll find.

2013-2014 was a busy cycle.

[USALiberal]

166. You just can't admit you are wrong on this topic I guess. n/t

[LisaL]

168. Yes, the due process would be his accusers having to testify.

What's wrong with that? I have been extremely bothered from the start by the idea that all accusations should be accepted without questioning.
We now have lost a Senator because of accusations half of which were anonymous, and others included a woman complaining he groped her waist during a photo op.
What happens if/when somebody else is accused, even anonymously? Do they have to immediately resign? That's the standard that was set.