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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy did senators who asked Franken to resign hug him afterwards?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/7/16746770/senate-floor-al-franken-resignation-speechSeems fishy to me. You think he is unfit to serve and yet give him a hug goodbye? Also why would you hug a man you are asking to leave because of groping? Weren't they afraid of being groped themself? Somerring is fishy here.
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Who'd understand this miserable situation better than his colleagues who are part of it, others whose careers can be just this fragile?
Our women senators decided to grab this moment in history, to make it a turning point instead of a transient moment, and most of our male senators followed. And also very much to draw a clear, moral distinction between the choices voters have to make.
Franken's the unfortunate who has fallen on his sword, of course, but his resignation supports what they -- and he -- are trying to do.
He is one of them. Anger set aside for hugs and tears? No surprise here.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)I am supposed to go out and vote for someone who might just be a mere accusation away from having to resign?
Why even bother, then?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Some don't recognize the realities of very imperfect democracy because they're young and haven't thought out it (and still aren't).
Others can't accept them because only something a lot more like perfection (at least in others) will satisfy them. Eternal disappointment in others is just built into these poor souls.
I think for most, though, the biggest factors are a plain old combination of ignorance and the most satisfactory emotional reaction of the moment, elbowing aside what should be thoughtful consideration. Nothing's more common, after all, than the intellectual laziness and dishonesty that allow complex situations to be redefined as satisfying, one-dimensional, black and white pictures so we can imagine ourselves wise and virtuous.
This isn't an argument for low standards of behavior among politicians, btw, just one for higher standards for understanding among us.
mn9driver
(4,426 posts)If I vote at all next fall, it will be with considerably less enthusiasm. Im not alone. I expect my vote to count; not be negated by a symbolic charade that was decided by DNC brainiacs who will be sitting around next election night wondering where all the voters went.
Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)I voted for Senator Franken and I feel betrayed that he was forced out. I am appalled at how horribly it was handled. My enthusiasm for the upcoming farce of an election is deeply lacking. I grieve the loss of Senator Franken.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)That sentiment is higher among non-DUers I know.
marybourg
(12,633 posts)thanks all of you.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Also, I'm Catholic and was raised on guilt so you're poor attempt won't make a difference.
Let me be clear about me. I in no way expressed or implied I would be voting for the GOPee. Having said that, you need something better than "We're not Republican." to motivate the lowest participating democracy on the planet to vote.
suegeo
(2,573 posts)I voted for him, donated money time, etc.
Franken sat through that re-count and MADE SURE my vote counted.
All to be taken away by stupid stupid "leaders" who fell for a republican rat fuck. And, worse, these dumb mofos take away the investigation that might have exposed the rat fuck. Yeah, I know, fat chance with the autocrats giving Nunes a pass.
I am beyond exhausted putting up with all the disruption the coup of 2016 has brought.
And now, I gotta donate money, time to try an protect a senate seat from republican asshats in minnesota, some who wanted to take away meals on wheels. In a time when republican and mother russia vote fuckery continues. F.M.L
Plus Erick effing Paulsen doesn't have town halls and I have worse-than-useless "representation" in Congress.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)Just read it and didn't realize he hugged the very senators asking for him to resign.
bagelsforbreakfast
(1,427 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,398 posts)LisaL
(44,973 posts)If they believed him a groper, why would they actually want to give him a hug? Yet according to the article they stood in line to do it.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Makes total sense...
Mike Nelson
(9,960 posts)...better man than I am... if I were ousted fro the Senate due to some accusers saying they were grabbed during a hug, I would not hug the Senators asking me to resign.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Even stood in line to do so.
janterry
(4,429 posts)(which I don't believe for one minute. He is better ON the team)
4139
(1,893 posts)would be if Roy Moore wins, Franken might resign the same day Moore s sworn in.
More likely he wants to fight...
4139
(1,893 posts)Letting your opponent beat on you till they tire?
Resigning in the coming weeks, letting those who want to beat on him to get it out of their system.
Roy Moore took huge hit and fell in the polls.... Moore is outlasting the beating.
Franken May also outlast the beating
DesertRat
(27,995 posts)And that person gets settled into the job. He's not going to leave the seat open during the crucial tax bill vote.
IADEMO2004
(5,556 posts)spooky3
(34,460 posts)So insensitive.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)Laws impact millions, sometimes billions. That is far more important than one small man named Al Franken. Franken in the Senate clouded the difference between Dems protecting women and Repub hurting them. We need that difference to be as bright as possible, not clouded, to maintain our lead among women so we can wine elections so we can pass laws which help millions, maybe billions. That is true even though we love Al Franken.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)So that would really help women's rights.
Demsrule86
(68,599 posts)This was put up job. And the Democrats fell for it...so angry.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)The question I addressed was how could Dem Senators hug Al Franken while kicking him out. The answer is that the Dem Senators think Franken leaving will lead to more Dems elected which is more important than Al Franken. Your worry about electoral consequences from Franken leaving May be valid. But my answer addressed a different point: how can people both kick him out and hug him.
I am not competent to accurately predict whether your concerns are valid but I can point out that there are tens of thousands of elections nationwide and that there are elections in many future years. It is possible that one senate seat is less important than possible advantages in all those other elections. For instance Republican Jeff Flake has said that the election of Roy Moore will cost Republicans much more in other elections than his victory in this one race will be worth. I happen to agree with Flake and I happen to agree with Senate Dems. But I conced my expertise is basically zero.
Demsrule86
(68,599 posts)We have to wait nine months until the election...Democratic seat. You all are being played...and obviously the real scandals won't hurt the GOP...but taking the high road when they attack one of our won will destroy our chances of being elected...Franken's seat could decide the Senate...this is what this was always about...and mark my words...I doubt McConnell will seat Frankens replacement so we may get more shit from this oh so stupid piling on by Democrats .
groundloop
(11,519 posts)It would have done more good to expose the repubs behind this for what they are.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)But his colleagues demanded he resigned instead.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)The senate dems want a super clear difference in party images, Dems protecting women, Repub hurting them. Franken makes that difference less clear. That kind of difference in party images influences tens of thousands of elections around the nation, now and in future years. Forfeiting one or two seats is less important than in bolstering that difference in party images. Jeff Flake knows that Roy Moore winning one Senate seat is a huge loss for Republicans overall and Senate Dems have a similar view about Franken. They still love Franken. We all do. But it is not hard to see that one small man and the small chance of losing one senate seat does not add up to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Al needs to get on the damn plane flying out of Casablanca just like Ilsa had to.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Are women equal or are they some sort of commodity that needs to be protected?
mythology
(9,527 posts)Women should be treated like equals, but I don't worry the guy walking down the street might sexually assault me. I'm statistically less likely to die from domestic violence, I'm not paid 80 cents on the dollar to my female counterparts.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)Men have power over women in many settings and obviously abuse that power. We can do things to help, such as by permitting lawsuits, preventing non disclosure agreements blocking disclosure, preventing pay discrimination etc
Cicada
(4,533 posts)We have elections. Dems can get a higher share of the votes if people view Dems as less tolerant of bad male behavior than Repub are. Franken leaving helps sell that story. Dems winning elections is good for the world. The answer to your question does not change that.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Cicada
(4,533 posts)More women voted for Hillary than voted for Trump overall. Hillary also did much better among white women than among white men.
I believe the 53% of white women who voted for Trump did so primarily because they are racists who incorrectly believe that immigrants commit more crime than native born people do, who incorrectly believe that immigrants lower the income of non immigrants, who believe that a high percentage of Muslims in the US hurt others here, who incorrectly believe that minorities are on the whole lazy and mooch off the rest of us and get unfair advantages in our society compared to non minorities.
But I could be wrong about that.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Doesn't seem they cared much about accusations against him.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)that's better than 38%, the percentage of white men who voted against him
highmindedhavi
(355 posts)I wish I express my thoughts as clear as yours.
The average voter doesnt know Al Franken from a hole in the ground, much less what party he is from. This whole mess will superseded by some other mess and forgotten in 6 months.
better
(884 posts)It's a safe bet that all of us here (who aren't trolls) are on the same page about wanting to highlight that our side is for protecting women and the other side is against protecting them. On the surface, your argument that Franken makes the difference less clear makes sense, and in a sane world, that might actually justify what was done here. But we do not live in a sane world, and the longer we keep acting as though we do, the sooner we are going to reach the point of no return.
Let's unpack your "one small man" argument for a moment. First of all, the problem is that the one small man in question happens to also be the one small man who had the vision to spot Goliath's (Sessions) weakness, and cast the stone on target. Secondly, the reaction was vastly disproportionate to the situation.
I would draw your attention to how we responded to Patton in the wake of the infamous "slapping incident". He was publicly excoriated, passed over to lead the invasion of northern Europe, and required to apologize for his misdeeds. But he wasn't kicked off the battlefield. Instead, he was employed to confuse the enemy as to allied invasion plans, before eventually being given command of the Third Army. Notably, we did not deny him air support as he stormed across France to lead the relief of American troops in Bastogne during the Battle of the Buldge, and ultimately invade Nazi Germany. That would seem to be somewhat of a validation of War Secretary Henry Stimson's assessment that retaining Patton was a poor move for public relations, but the right decision militarily.
The fact remains that our enemy in this war (and it is a war and we are their enemy, whether or not we view them as ours) is looking for any way they can to take our generals off the field, and in handling this the way we have, we have given them a roadmap to do so with minimal effort or cost. If we do not recognize the danger of that course of action and adjust course, we should expect it not to stop at "one small man" or one senate seat.
tavalon
(27,985 posts)RobinA
(9,894 posts)the sarcasm thingie. What you say may sound good in theory, but recent events have proven it not to be the case. The average voter doesnt give a crap about some senator from Alabama. Trump proves every day that bad behavior is not a bar to political success.
but why bother if an accusation is enough to lose the candidate you voted for? As far as hurting women, the Democratic Party was stronger with Franken than with out. I have spoken to several people that have re-registered as Independents since all this and are very angry with the party.
I predict a GOPee landslide in 2018. Gerrymandering, voter suppression and Gilibrand.
Demsrule86
(68,599 posts)JimBeard
(293 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)I would not have blamed him for backing off and refusing.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)jimlup
(7,968 posts)Not the hugs... I wouldn't put a great deal of gravity on the hug. He is a colleague. I am aghast at how the dems handled this but the calls for resignation were political calculation. It may well backfire. As a dem I hope it doesn't but I miss Al and think it was a great loss.
Demsrule86
(68,599 posts)until the next election...and the votes in the house have been very close...This is a shit show...time to call the GOP on their bullshit and fight fire with fire.
ollie10
(2,091 posts)being disenfranchised for all this time?
Don't hold your breath.
Demsrule86
(68,599 posts)and talk about the 'high road' ...should be called the losers road. No one cares that they play 'fair' (was not really fair) and threw their own under the bus...just means more attacks and the pure among us can opine how about how pure we are (losers).
LisaL
(44,973 posts)We have to have moral high ground.
Which I am sure will keep me warm if I have to sleep under a bridge.
Katinfl
(157 posts)Where did that ever get us? Sure didnt help in Nov. Frankens resignation will not get us another GOP voter. Seems like Dems just dont know how to stick together and fight. After awhile you get sick of continuing to support them.........but I still wont give up.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)Four of these senators have now written to me for donations. I told them to take a hike and why.
JI7
(89,252 posts)Demsrule86
(68,599 posts)The Dems who are running for president or support someone else were thinking primary...what about the Country people? What about social security and Medicare...Dreamers? And I have no faith the McConnell will seat Franken's replacement. Franken should announce he will not run for the next election...since the cowardly governor won't appoint a person who can run in 20, there is no reason for Franken to resign now...of course watch the GOP make an heroic or lack there of effort to get him out before the tax bill comes back.
ananda
(28,867 posts)nt
Ninga
(8,275 posts)Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)relieve their guilt!
ollie10
(2,091 posts)Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)LisaL
(44,973 posts)Glorfindel
(9,730 posts)on that collection of backstabbers. Their reward is waiting for them.
dalton99a
(81,526 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)mentalslavery
(463 posts)but that picture of him looking like a sexual predator was just too much...the optics where terrible and they knew he was "taking on for the team"
IronLionZion
(45,463 posts)those senators certainly looked traumatized by his perverted touch. They probably went to a pizzeria afterwards with Hillary.
Bettie
(16,111 posts)nm
Response to Joe941 (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Would you hug a known groper?
treestar
(82,383 posts)during hugs!!!!!
Bleacher Creature
(11,257 posts)Franken's a fantastic guy and Senator, but he didn't live up to the high bar we as Democrats need to set for ourselves in the Age of Trump (and Moore).
LisaL
(44,973 posts)spooky3
(34,460 posts)The allegations should have been investigated; what has been made public is VERY weak, IMHO. If more evidence had been presented and witnesses found to be credible, etc., then maybe more of us would have agreed about the "failure."
lark
(23,123 posts)at least Sanders is pushing for an ethics hearing on drumpf, have heard squat about that from Harris of Gillibrand. Still, I forgive none of them and will not contribute to any since they are traitors to the truth. Rush Franken out, do the repugs a HUGE favor, and act like they are so pious and pure without ever even listening or attempting to get to the truth. They are all dangerous people and have doomed dems from here forward for their own personal advancement.
Blaukraut
(5,693 posts)It'll be interesting to see who will come out the winner of this battle for the nomination for Dem pres. candidate, or if it will all be for naught.
lark
(23,123 posts)They are all dead to me, my letter writing, my calling and my checkbook/credit cards. I was hoping for Harris, but no more. Adam Schiff is my hope now.
rzemanfl
(29,565 posts)Pachamama
(16,887 posts)...all kiss and hug the person who was just voted off the show and is leaving...its such a farce, such a lie and acting like they care...especially when they had to do with their departure!!!
Joe941
(2,848 posts)Voltaire2
(13,078 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)LisaL
(44,973 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)peggysue2
(10,833 posts)Franken reluctantly fell on his sword. I'm still not convinced there's a greater good in respect to Franken's resignation. And I was put off by Gillibrand's somewhat cavalier attitude about ending the man's political career. I like Gillibrand but felt she was dead wrong on this one.
Btw, I thought the Democratic pile-on was indeed fishy, supporting an earlier suggestion that it was political theater, that Franken had telegraphed his decision in advance. After the Senate floor speech, admissions were made that in addition to the moral consideration, there was a political calculation. The group hugs only further support that idea.
Still convinced we lost a damn fine Senator. Lawrence O'Donnell summed it up: don't ever expect fairness in politics.
Unsettling thought but do doubt true.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)However, making him resign without an investigation isn't going to lead to any greater good.
What happens the next time someone is accused? By a standard set by democrats for Franken, that someone must resign without any investigation.
I wonder how many of them are going to be left.
doc03
(35,351 posts)3catwoman3
(24,007 posts)...my left hand firmly behind my back, and my right hand extended for hand shakes, just to make a point. And maybe the middle finger of my left hand extended.
Amaryllis
(9,525 posts)because....moral high road? We can't be like the Rs, so even the appearance of impropriety must go? This explains really well:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029953599
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)It's like saying
"This isn't personal,
we just want you gone".
RealityChik
(382 posts)Plain and simple.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Maybe they wanted him to grab their asses?