We have made an adjustment to DU's "No bigotry/insensitivity" rule: please read

[EarlG]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to let you know about a change that we've made to our "No bigotry/insensitivity" rule. To be blunt, there's been some pretty hurtful stuff posted about trans people on DU recently, and Juries have been letting a lot of it slide. This has created an unpleasant atmosphere for our trans members, who have been left without much recourse as Juries regularly fail to remove transphobic posts.

I believe the reason for this is pretty straightforward: it's not that we have a lot of transphobic DU members serving on Juries, it's just that many DU members aren't actually very familiar with what transphobia looks like. And if a Jury member can't see a problem with a post, then obviously they are unlikely to vote to remove that post.

So it is my hope that we can remedy this with a brief addition to the current "No bigotry/insensitivity" rule which explains what to look out for when serving on a Jury, and what to avoid when posting. The spirit and wording of the original rule have not changed -- we have added one new line asking members to take care when highlighting bigoted comments by public figures, and a short new paragraph containing DU's definition of transphobia.

I want to offer my sincere thanks to IngridsLittleAngel who approached me about this problem some time ago on behalf of DU's trans members and allies, and discussed possible solutions with me at length. After concluding that the best option at this time would be to provide DU members with more information about transphobia so that they can make better decisions while posting and serving on Juries, I asked if she could help me craft the new informational paragraph. She wrote the initial text that became the basis for what is now in the rule. Here is the rule in full:

NO BIGOTRY/INSENSITIVITY

Members are expected to respect diversity and demonstrate an appropriate level of sensitivity when discussing related topics. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of bigoted intolerance are not permitted. When highlighting bigoted comments by a public figure, members should take care to avoid the impression that they agree with those comments.

For your information, our definition of transphobia includes, but is not limited to: Misgendering, deadnaming, or otherwise refusing to recognize a trans person's gender identity; Arguing that trans people are not "real" men or women; Arguing that trans people should not have the same rights as cis people -- for example, the right to use public restrooms or play sports that match their gender identity; Arguing that there is any scientific basis for discriminating against trans people.

Why we have this rule: Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes people of every race, sex, religious belief (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, gender identity, body type, disability, age, etc. We want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members, and do not want to provide a platform for bigotry.

I hope that all DUers will take this information on board, and use it when posting, and serving on Juries. Thanks for reading, and thanks for being here at DU.



EarlG (Admin)

[SheltieLover]

1. Ty, EarlG!

[Solly Mack]

2. Thank you to you both, IngridsLittleAngel and EarlG.

[Walleye]

3. Thank you. It is distressing when people thoughtlessly hurt other people's feelings

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

240. Cudn't agree more;precisely why bigots like JKRowling & other fascists should be promptly cancelled!

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Good.

Frankly, I would like to see "comments" to be allowed again for that category. Not for people commenting on their jury decision, but rather allowing the alerter to explain why the post is offensive. You even said:

...it's not that we have a lot of transphobic DU members serving on Juries, it's just that many DU members aren't actually very familiar with what transphobia looks like.

It stands to reason then, allowing someone to spell out the problem might result in more hides for transphobic posts, as well as some other bigotries which get a pass. Not everyone here is exposed to every form of bigotry out there, even someone like me who used to teach diversity learns new things, and, sometimes, things which in the past were OK, think "handicap" or "transexual", are no longer the best terms, and while not necessarily hide-worthy, something else may be worthy of a hide.

[mopinko]

26. this right here!!!!!

in my years in the du hot tub i received quite an education, and i'm so glad for it.
lots of people abused the comment option in the old days, airing grievances and grinding their personal axes. it could easily undermine the blind jury process, but i just learned so much.

[Cha]

42. I agree! I wish we could have

comments of why we're alerting for all the rules.

💙💛

[Behind the Aegis]

57. I would like that too, but would settle for just the "bigotry" rule because it is complicated.

The excuse/reason given was people were abusing the alert comments. What that means, I haven't a clue. In the SCORES of juries I was called to before the rule change, I only recall one alert that was problematic. Now, the comments in the section for the jury decisions, there I saw a number of problems and actually alerted on comments made by the jury. While I did enjoy it (commenting as a juror), in real life, juries don't make comments in the gallery, they just issue a decision, but they make their decision based on what the prosecution (alerter) offered.

[Solly Mack]

101. Yes!

[hlthe2b]

200. I could not agree more. The comments from the alerter gave some context that is so often

missing. Some abused that opportunity, however, I do admit.

[soldierant]

202. 100% agree.

I've dropped out of juries because I had no idea what the issue was, and struggled with others, trying to figure it out th best I can. I feel that if I'm not learning, I'm dying a little, and it's not east to look into someone's heart who has experiences which are inconceicable to me. And I say that as someone who is old enough to tremember Christine Jorgenson, with the reaction, "Sure, this happens, what's the big deal?" while others around me are freaking out.

And things change. Vocabulary changes - Skip Gates once said, "My grandparents were Negro. My parents were colored. And me? I'm Black. I've lived through all of those terms and more. I'm not embarrassed to say I could use more guidance, whether I'm the juror or the offender (which I have been once or twice.)

Restorative justice is the best kind.

[Karma13612]

280. Very true! Eom

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

248. While we're discussing DU juries, I'd like to know how any juror can possibility judge,

from the limited info with which we're presented, whether the alert was made in good faith or was an attempt to disrupt. Therefore, I always hesitate to answer that question, and have sometimes even backed out of jury duty because of that.

[hlthe2b]

269. Yes. That is generally a "crystal ball" issue. There are undoubtedly some alerters with a "pattern,"

but how are we to know? If the alert is so ridiculous that I can not fathom anyone mistaking the original post for something not totally benign, I suppose that would fit. But, having had posts of my own misinterpreted over the years, I think such mistakes are the rule, rather than malign intent.

[marble falls]

323. And even if the alerters have a pattern, like alerting on every issue they see ...

1. they have no connection to the Jury.
2. if their alerts fall, after a few fails, their alerts do no got through.
3. If their pattern of alerts demonstrate stalking, they get sanctions.

[Karma13612]

281. I agree,

Sometimes We are given so little information when asked to sit on a jury.

Even with the expanded version of the comments provided, sometimes I am still not sure how to vote.

I think we need to be given the option to see the entire diary/post/threads/etc.

I have actually resigned from some jury service because I just didn’t have enuf information to go on. Context is everything. And some comments are just not clearly either right or wrong.

I am talking in general terms, not just bigotry issues.

As an aside, IRL, when you sit on a jury, you have seen the entire case, not just one or two witnesses, and maybe a few facts most directly related to the case.

[Kali]

290. actually that is not true for real juries

lots of evidence and witnesses can and are excluded from their knowledge for various reasons.

[Karma13612]

315. Are those witnesses and evidence somehow

Factored in to their jury decision?

I’m not clear how the jury makes their verdict on witnesses and evidence they don’t have.

What I am saying is that a jury gives their verdict based on the witness and facts they are provided. And we should mirror that here at DU. I wish to see the whole thread/diary/comments etc. Otherwise, I can’t make a proper decision about guilt or innocence.

[MarcA]

313. Personally, I would like the jury system here to be abolished.

You can still block posters. If you feel something is out of line let the Admins know about it. The Admins should then deal with it. If you don't like enough of their decisions, try and get new Admins are leave the site. The jury system here is a random and often kangaroo court.

[marble falls]

324. You can go to the original OP and look ...

... it's not encouraged because seeing the names of the participants can encourage votes based on grudges or favor, or even stalking.

If a verdict is bad it can be appealed and I've had two of own hidings reversed.

This place has a lot of ways and leeways. One reason I love it so much.

I've only had one vote I regretted when I saw the whole threat and I asked that Admin to look at it and they unhid the post.

[FreeState]

292. +1000 n/t

[Irish_Dem]

5. Thank you EarlG for the information and education.

As a retired mental health professional and ally (my daughter is bi-sexual) I feel quite remiss that I cannot always keep up with the latest information concerning LGBTQ issues.

I very much want to do the right thing and appreciate any and all help.

[AndyS]

6. Good on ya' EarlG!

Ignorance is a problem. Hell, I had to look up some of the words in your post! That said, not knowing hasn't stopped me from seeing bigotry, even innocent due to no exposure, when it happens.

On a personal note: I grew up in a horribly bigoted home. The best I can say about my mother is that she was an equal opportunity bigot . . . she hated every minority equally. I didn't discover how racially and religiously insensitive I was until I spent two years in the army. I'm surprised nobody threw a blanket over me and beat me with a bat.

We are taught to be what we are both actively and passively. It's something we all need to actively work on.

[Irish_Dem]

7. Kudos to IngridsLittleAngel.

Helping to move this forum forward.

[LakeArenal]

8. We had a transgender human come out in a group setting. It wasn't easy for this person.

The Republican next to him pipes up, “I don’t believe in that!” Right next to him. Before his very eyes..

I don’t believe in “it”. Geezus.

[AmBlue]

9. Duly noted... and thanks.

I will remain vigilant regarding this issue.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

10. Thank you for this clarification, my dear EarlG.

We may not always get it right, but sure as hell, we're always working to get there.

[YoshidaYui]

12. This

[joshdawg]

87. Progress, not perfection.

[notinkansas]

252. Working for sure.

It's not that I do not accept my grandaughter's same sex marriage. I do. Their wedding was exactly the way they wanted it to be, not what the wedding industry would provide. The problem I have is grammar. He and she are single persons. They and them are more than one person. The fact that one may not identify as a he or she or both is ok. I just wish they had found a new term that didn't coopt the traditional meaning of they and them. I will certainly try to get used to it, but I know that my training of so many years will cause me to slip up now and then. Sigh.

[Aristus]

11. Thank you, EarlG!

[phylny]

13. I think this is a good idea.

Last edited Mon Jun 20, 2022, 04:26 PM - Edit history (1)

How about when people bash and ridicule Christianity and mention the imaginary “sky-daddy”? Because it seems these posts are allowed to stay.

ETA I meant write ”I think” not “If I think…””.”

[mopinko]

27. nobody is out there persecuting xtians.

not the same.

[calimary]

55. Indeed. Excellent point, mopinko. Sad but true.

And thank you, EarlG, for taking this step.

[ruet]

72. Nobody?

Persecution against Christians on the rise worldwide

Over 360 million experiencing persecution
On January 19 the non-denominational organization based in the Netherlands presented its 2022 World Watch List (WWL) which ranks the top 50 countries where Christians experience the worst persecution for their faith. The survey, covering a period from 1 October 2020 to 30 September 2021, shows that persecution continues to rise especially in Asian and African countries and that the COVID 19 pandemic has further exacerbated discrimination.

According to its findings, which have been thoroughly analyzed by the independent International Institute for Religious Freedom (IRF), over 360 million people (that is 1 out of 7 globally) endured persecution and discrimination in their country last year. Overall, 5,898 Christians were killed (up 23,8 % versus 2020), 5,110 churches were attacked or closed (up 13,8 %), 6,175 were Christians arrested without trial (up 44,3%) and 3,829 kidnapped (up 123,9%).

I'm an equal opportunity destroyer of all religious garbage. But I also like a fact-based discussion.

[mopinko]

76. fine. nobody here. in this country or on this board.

[SpankMe]

246. Context

"Persecution" per se is on the rise in nations with Christian minorities.

But I believe the poster was referring to Christians in America and the degree with which they claim they're victims of persecution merely because of the criticism they receive from open displays of Christ-centered homophobia, misogyny, racism and other whacked behavior that is sourced to the bible.

So, yes, in the context of the established Christian culture in the United States today, it is a fair statement that "nobody is out there persecuting xtians".

Given the rise of Republican power and the hyper-right in the current era, Christians are, in fact, chief persecutors in the US today.

[Dysfunctional]

113. Using the term "sky-daddy" refers to all religions, deists, all people that believe in God.

That term and others do not belong at DU.

[Maraya1969]

137. I agree.

[maxsolomon]

156. People that believe in a paternalistic monotheism.

specifically Abrahamic Monotheism.

It's not attacking Hindu Gods - well, maybe Vishnu.

[oldsoftie]

176. "persecuting" & "insulting" are both supposed to be frowned upon

And plenty of posts happily insult christians or christianity. I don't alert on posts because I don't care & peoples opinions don't bother me whether I like them or not.
But if you're going to make a rule it should apply to EVERY group.

[whathehell]

320. THANK you..

:

[Kali]

36. Christians aren't a persecuted minority

and a large portion of them are actually quite the opposite. Oppressive assholes that would take this country to a very dark place if they had their way.

[lees1975]

50. But...

this is a Democratic message board and everyone should be treated equally. There are Christian democrats here.

[Hortensis]

94. Agree. EVERY INDIVIDUAL should be protected from bigotry/insensitivity.

The size of a group DUers may be categorized with in derogatory remarks does not excuse bigotry.

Ascribing attitudes and behaviors unacceptable here to all Christians for instance, knowing full well that many DUers are Christian, is as bad as doing the same for any other group, religious, racial, gender, nationality, etc. Those posters think they're getting away with something, and currently are.

It's wonderful that we're extending this better protection to our trans members. DU can and hopefully will insist on protection against bigotry for all members.

[phylny]

126. Well said and that is my point, but you

explained it fully.

[Eliot Rosewater]

227. As usual, you say it better than anyone can.

[Hortensis]

272. Lol. Thanks, but think I imprinted Jane Austin as a kid.

Never express one beautifully concise thought if a whole stream of consciousness can run on instead.

Glad for everyone who realizes allowing indulgence of shopping cart choices in bigotry is not a stand against it.

[Kali]

206. when individual Christian democrats are personally attacked I will be sure to alert on the post.

institutions, including religions can often be deservedly ridiculed and criticized. same for silly beliefs. of course you are free to alert on posts you think are offensive.

THIS thread is about a group that are TRULY a persecuted minority. that experiences REAL bigotry. LIFE and DEATH type of threats, not silly rhetorical whining by a majority group.

the what-about-me crap in this thread is disgusting.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

293. Thank you!

[ruet]

51. I Think That...

if you don't want to get called out on your belief in magic and how that belief should inform public policy; you should keep your fingers to yourself. Religion is a choice. But, when in Rome...

[phylny]

117. I think that I don't vote with my

religion, but my religion informs my voting.

Feed the hungry.

Care for the poor.

Care for the sick.

Take care of children.

And your comment about magic illustrates my point. No need.

[MichMan]

53. The no bigoted/insensitivity rule posted specifically mentions religion

I missed the part where it states it only applies to a persecuted minority. Can you highlight that portion for me?

Why we have this rule: Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes people of every race, sex, religious belief (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, gender identity, body type, disability, age, etc. We want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members, and do not want to provide a platform for bigotry.

[phylny]

120. My point and thank you.

[obamanut2012]

52. God, do you not get why posting this here is a bad idea?

Jesus Christ.

[LAS14]

90. Pathetic prejudice going on here.... nt

[MichMan]

62. Seems pretty clear to me what the revised rules states

Why we have this rule: Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes people of every race, sex, religious belief (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, gender identity, body type, disability, age, etc. We want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members, and do not want to provide a platform for bigotry.

[NullTuples]

224. I feel I must ask how this works when the religious belief of Republicans

mirrors all their other values, including ableism, sexism, racism, and so on?

Is it ethically & morally right to ignore that?

[LAS14]

84. Yup. Thanks for this. nt

[Duncan Grant]

106. I don't accommodate this anymore.

This thread isn’t about *your* anecdotal subjective experience. It’s about something greater; a *community* experience of systemic anti-trans ignorance and bias.

[phylny]

124. Whether you accommodate this or not doesn't

concern me at all. I commented.

Our trans brethren deserve every kindness and protection. As I wrote, I agree with this.

I find the rules are unevenly applied and asked a question.

[Duncan Grant]

128. Start a separate thread in GD, please.

Happy to read all about *you* — elsewhere. This thread isn’t the place.

[phylny]

129. It's not about "me."

It’s about many of us.

Thanks for your input.

[Duncan Grant]

130. There's a time to step up and a time to step back.

Think about it.

[phylny]

131. Next time I need advice on posting here

I’ll be sure to DM you first.

[EarlG]

135. I have temporarily blocked you from posting in this forum

Since you do not seem to be able to read the room.

[Voltaire2]

143. Attacking ideas is not attacking the person who

expresses or believes those ideas. It is not a personal attack. If your feelings are hurt by people who find your religious ideas ridiculous that is really just your problem

[yardwork]

181. Do you often ask "Don't all lives matter?"

[Sunsky]

188. Thanks for this

You are absolutely correct in your observation.

[fescuerescue]

199. That's different.

[MontanaMama]

14. Excellent.

I support this 100%. Thank you to IngridsLittleAngel for taking up the mantle of change and thanks to you, EarlG, for making it so.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

237. Right there with you!!

[irisblue]

15. Thank you.

[momta]

16. Thank you.

I have a trans child and even I can sometimes "miss" what is clearly transphobia. This is a good reminder to remain vigilant.

[Faux pas]

17. Kickin'

I had no idea we had Trans bigotry going on here

[NullTuples]

149. They've been doing a good job of moderating, but it's likely been a lot of extra work

[yardwork]

183. There are no moderators on DU. There is a jury system. We are all moderators.

And some of us aren't doing a good job.

[TheRickles]

185. It would help if jurors were told the outcome on the cases they're called to judge.

I find it pretty confusing to not know how my colleagues have been assessing the situations when I am called upon to be a juror.

[70sEraVet]

209. I agree with your point. There is no feedback. How am I doing as a juror?

Do I seem to have a blind spot about certain issues?
Maybe a quarterly review would be in order?

[Karma13612]

282. [phone]

[NullTuples]

226. Yes, but entire discussions have been taken down. I assumed that was not due to a jurist

[yardwork]

274. You're right, that would be volunteer Hosts.

There are Hosts - DUers who volunteer - who can lock threads. They can't delete posts, though. There's also a group of volunteers who monitor and ban trolls.

[marble falls]

322. If an OP itself is taken down, the rest of the discussion stays up, but is locked. Makes sense to me

[Ms. Toad]

175. Keep an eye out whenever there is any news blurb

About trans athletes. It has been very blatant - but couched as concern for women athletes (i.e. the subset of women athletes who are XX, or cis) having to compete against all those male hormone enhanced muscles. When challenged, the response suggests that anyone who believes trans women should be allowed to participate in women's sports is mysogynistic

[vercetti2021]

228. Not only that

But misinformed on how treatment works. Blockers and hormones replacement does alter the body drastically than most wanna believe. The muscles weaken, the body can actually reshape in size and weight. But most do not do basic research

[IngridsLittleAngel]

231. Correct

Roughly six weeks of Spironolactone (the first four weeks at 50mg/day, now at 100mg/day) has reduced my strength and muscle mass. There will obviously be further drops in both once we start HRT in early August.

Some of the trans women I know have had their hands, feet, shoulders and other parts of their body shrink between blockers and HRT. Some have to buy all new shoes because they dropped 1-2 shoe sizes. Some have lost a couple inches off their height.

Altering a person's body chemistry can have drastic effects upon their body and shape. If the use of steroids and HGH and male hormones can enlarge Barry Bonds' body and head (to where he needed a cap 2-3 sizes bigger), female hormones are going to do the opposite.

[vercetti2021]

233. Yep

I lost 2 sizes in my shoes. I had to purchase all new boots and sneakers. And I can still lose sizes. I love hormones lol wonder drug

[IngridsLittleAngel]

256. I'm already anticipating that possibility

I do like my boots, and have tended to get them 1/2 size larger to begin with, figuring doing so will keep from utterly crunching my toes inside of them. Now I'm wondering if 6-12 months from now my feet will be swimming in them and I'll have to get new ones.

Only time will tell, I guess. It's still a small price to pay to wind up being a lot closer to who I am inside.

[Faux pas]

278. Wow!

Thank you, I'll BOLO for that.

[bluestarone]

18. TY for this

WE do need reminders at times here. We are ALL good people here. Just need reminders of where we are at.

[MuseRider]

19. I am very happy to see this.

Thank you.

[GoneOffShore]

20. Thank you!

[Torchlight]

21. Solidly progressive.

You admins have it here as a feature here and not a bug. That's a pretty stunning (and great) accomplishment these days.

[BumRushDaShow]

22. Good!

It's been awhile since that category has been updated.

[William769]

23. Best of luck with this.

Our trans DU members Rock!

[wryter2000]

24. What's deadnaming?

Is it using the name they were given that is inappropriate for their real gender identity?

[billh58]

78. Definition

dead name
[dead name]

VERB
deadnaming (present participle)
call (a transgender person) by their birth name when they have changed their name as part of their gender transition:
"he was addressed with the wrong pronouns and dead-named"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=deadnaming+definition&form=ANNTH1&refig=4ea647d129eb432a90067a99ffd1b2a8&sp=2&qs=LS&pq=deadnaming&sk=LS1&sc=8-10&cvid=4ea647d129eb432a90067a99ffd1b2a8

[wryter2000]

102. Thanks

That's what I figured.

I'm sorry to hear this sort of thing has been doing on here. I hope this adjustment fixes it.

[EarlG]

80. Here's some information about deadnaming:

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/deadnaming/

[Ocelot II]

82. I assume it's using the name the person was given originally but no longer uses

because it's not the name the person has chosen consistent with their actual gender identity. So if a person was given the name "John" at birth but no longer identifies as male and has taken the name "Jane," if you keep calling them John you are disrespecting and effectively refusing to acknowledge their true gender.

[greatauntoftriplets]

25. Thanks for this, EarlG.

If the conservative Republican members of my family have graciously accepted a gay member and a non-binary member, it seems that we should be able to it here as well.

[William769]

33. Let's hope so!

[greatauntoftriplets]

56. We've been working on him (my brother-in-law)

He'll always be a conservative Republican, but did not vote for president in 2020 because he could not vote for Spanky a second time.

[oldsoftie]

173. I know a good few like that. And thats why he lost.

[greatauntoftriplets]

186. It took some convincing because he's always voted for president.

But he never liked Spanky and evidently concluded that he went too far.

[oldsoftie]

191. To win you HAVE to keep your original voters. he started bleeding them.

I know people who voted Libertarian, for Biden; or just skipped that line altogether.
I don't think they were lying because they told me their thoughts unprompted.

[LiberatedUSA]

28. I am unclear on what this means...

…”When highlighting bigoted comments by a public figure, members should take care to avoid the impression that they agree with those comments”.

A lot of people post Twitter posts of public figures saying bigoted things or anything crazy without adding any comment. Does this mean that sort of non-comment is not allowed when posting something a public figure said if it was transphobic? As in, no comment means the poster agrees with the statement and therefore deserves a hide?

Could you explain that part a little better? Like if one posts a racist Twitter post from Tucker Carlson without adding a comment, does that get removed for being assumed to agree with it? Or will that just be something for transphobic statements. As in the poster needs to say something positive about the transgender community in their OP comments to assure those reading that they do not agree with the said quote?

It seems very broad so I just want to pinpoint what you are asking for that one part. Everything else is clear.

[MichMan]

38. What if the unsensitive comment is made by a Democratic public figure?

I think I understand the TOS, but I see frequently see posts allowed to stand that appear to violate it.


Are critical comments permitted in response, or does that violate the TOS regarding bashing Democratic public figures?

[EarlG]

75. It's really just a common sense reminder

This language is borrowed from similar language in the "Don't peddle right-wing talking points, smears, or sources" rule. DU members are certainly allowed to post news articles, tweets, etc. that contain bigotry -- provided of course that the reason for doing so is to point out the bigotry as a bad thing.

So when reposting a news story about some politician or celebrity who has said something bigoted, it's not compulsory to include any additional text, but it might not be a bad idea to add a comment just to prevent a Jury from removing your post if they aren't clear on your reason for posting it.

(FWIW -- it doesn't happen very often, but if a Jury does remove a post which is simply a repost of a news article not from a right-wing source, and the member appeals the removal, I will typically grant that appeal.)

[Shrike47]

29. Some of us jurors do not understand what's wrong with the post complained of.

We lack the necessary vocabulary to see the insult. I will try.

[arthritisR_US]

30. This is good to know, thank you!

[Tikki]

31. Thank You so much EarlG....

This was needed and I hope will be heeded.

Tikki

[spanone]

32. K&R

[nolabear]

34. Forgive my ignorance please, but what is "deadnaming"?

I’m pretty educated but I missed that one.

[Moosepoop]

40. I didn't know either...

It's using a person's "old name" instead of the name they have chosen for themselves. It can be intentional or unintentional, but in need of addressing either way.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/deadnaming/

[nolabear]

70. Thanks!

[Behind the Aegis]

41. "Deadnaming" is using a trans person's name prior to transition.

A person who had been named "Frank", then chose to go by "Francine", would be "deadnamed" if a person kept referring to her as "Frank". This is particularly a problem in the media when a trans person dies or is killed and the wrong name is used, usually with the wrong pronouns as well.

[nolabear]

71. Thanks. I kind of figured.

[LonePirate]

47. That's when you call Caitlyn Jenner by her former name instead of her current one.

Sometimes it also refers to using prior pronouns instead of current pronouns.

[nolabear]

74. Gotcha. Thanks. Makes sense.

[Hekate]

35. Thank you, EarlG. This place is an ongoing education

[lpbk2713]

37. One of the biggest plusses on DUs side is its embrace of diversity.

Thank you IngridsLittleAngel and EarlG for keeping us on course.

[Maeve]

39. Thank you, EarlG!!!

A few people here know my eldest came out as trans a few years ago, and I understand that there is a learning curve that some folks haven't tried yet. (Hey, I still slip sometimes!)
Appreciate your helping folks get it. You da boss!!

[Scottie Mom]

43. Thank you!!!!

In general, and not pointing a finger at the DU, I am totally appalled at the hatred being directed toward gay, bi, trans people. It's horrible. I am female and straight, but over many years, I have had gay and bi friends. They are just people...like anyone else...they did NOT choose a lifestyle. They just are who they are and deserve freedom from harm, hate and the right to find friends who care and someone special to love. I did not choose to be a straight female...just like no one chooses to be a gay male, a lesbian, and/or attracted to persons of both sexes. The same goes for trans persons. They just are who they and did not make a choice.

Gawd, this hatred and calling out needs to stop. (Again, not talking about the DU specifically.) Every time I read about some RW assholes (like the TX GQP) putting out a charter of hate, it makes me sad and sick.

The hatred in this nation is appalling.

[EndlessWire]

44. Maybe you could get

a soft, tone down of White bashing, too. Just a thought. We are all in it together. We are all fighting the Good Fight.

[Kali]

207. are you serious?

or am I misunderstanding what you are asking for?

[obamanut2012]

265. Oh boy

You aren't misunderstanding.

[Cha]

45. Thank You, EarlG & IngridsLittleAngel!

💙💛

[obamanut2012]

46. It would be nice if those of us who had posts hidden for calling out transphobia

Had those posts unhidden. I actually left DU because of people alerting on posts attacking trans rights. These alerters have stopped us from being eligible for MIRT, etc., and have silenced us from posting so we don't get FFRed.

As I said, I left last week because of all of this, and just came back to post this because I was told about this post.

Thank you for doing this, it is a great step, but something also needs to be done about us being attacked behind the scenes to silence us from calling out their hate. With all the hate in the world against us today, these folks here still hate us and what we are, and have weaponized and gamed the alert and jury systems. Taking away these hides would help the haters here not silence our voices or those of our brothers and sisters.

[Ms. Toad]

178. + 1000 I hope earlg will take note of this.

After a long career with no hides (or at least none which stuck after appeal) my responses to trans-hostile, or lgbt-hostile posts have ended up putting one post away from being FFR twice in the last year or so). Same thing that happened in the gay purge, a few years ago.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

198. I've had similar experiences

I'll admit, I'm not particularly civil with bigots, but the bulk of my hides in the past year have been calling out transphobic comments. Fortunately, I missed the flameout on one of my comments here, but I suspect there was an attempt to hide it as well, probably because I used an acronym that some seem to object to.

[Ms. Toad]

201. I'm usually firm, but civil -

But I acknowledge going close to, or over, the line when I've alerted on a clearly transphobic post, lost posting privileges for 24 hours when not a single person voted to hide it, then asked the poster to remove it edit their post, and got told off.

My willingness to tolerate persistent hate here (even when it started as ignorance) is at a low point, given the ever increasing real threats to my me, my family, my friends in the general population.

[Moosepoop]

48. Thank you Earl G. and IngridsLittleAngel.

This is yet another improvement to the best Democratic site there is.

[Floyd R. Turbo]

49. Bravo EG! 👍🏻

[Hassin Bin Sober]

54. Thank you. This shit has been driving me up a wall lately.

Being able to leave comments on alerts was a good feature. Not sure why that feature was removed.


Just saw someone posting the other day about “think about the poor athletes” as if one trans woman athlete is going to ruin an entire sport.

[littlemissmartypants]

59. ❤

[llashram]

60. big+

[obamanut2012]

67. What does that have to do with the OP?

And, it's kinda obvious what you are implying.

[obamanut2012]

83. Oh, I see -- you are pushing

Got it.

Click.

[pnwmom]

63. I'm wondering about Hillary Clinton's recent statement that she thought,

at this critical moment in time, with democracy itself under threat, that the Democrats facing election shouldn't be focusing on issues that weren't widely popular, such as defunding the police and trans rights.

Is her statement something that can't be discussed here?

[MichMan]

91. What if a similar comment is posted & someone is critical of it being said??

Will they be alerted and then have their post removed for bashing a public Democratic figure?

Probably best to just avoid commenting

[Captain Zero]

261. I'm avoiding commenting, too much stuff I have to look up like

misgendering, deadnaming, and all the three letter abbreviations.
I can never remember them.
I voted for Hillary several times too.

It's getting like when Kurt Vonnegut wrote about the Tralfamadorians recognizing seven genders among humans, but we could see only two because five of the genders were in a fourth dimension. I feel like I'm trying to look into a fourth dimension.

Sorry, that's just my opinion, and why I will just say no to trans threads.
Of course this is DU, and I know I can count on someone here to let me know when I have strayed into a fourth dimension one.

I wish no harm or bad feelings to anyone and I can see how this is custom built for the right wing to start up all kinds of peeking into our pants brigades. So fuck them for that too.

[Jirel]

112. The rule does not appear to preclude this.

Could discussion go to a "scary place" for some of either agreeing (very possibly in a bigoted way, considering what we have see here at times) versus criticizing a Dem politician (Hillary Clinton isn't in office or even working a campaign any more at this point, but whatever)? Sure it could. But these conversation still should be had. These conversations are necessary every day, because so many politicians, DEM politicians, have made statements like this about trans rights, or about BLM or defunding the police, or about "this isn't the time" to discuss

[IngridsLittleAngel]

158. I'm going to ask a genuine question

Why is it that Hillary Clinton's comments (which I disagree with and am disappointed in) carry more weight than Joe Biden's? Biden is in the White House and has taken a strong stance on these issues all along.

Yet when I post Biden's own words, those seem to be ignored?

[pnwmom]

218. I don't think anybody said Hillary's carry more weight. Lots of posts here get ignored,

so if you didn't have a big reaction, you could try posting it again.

But I just googled, and I can't find a recent article on Biden addressing trans rights. Did he say something recently? In the past both he and Hillary have been strong on trans rights, and she still supports them -- but she doesn't want any issues that significantly divide Democrats to interfere in a united fight for democracy right now.

https://www.ft.com/content/2e667c3f-954d-49fa-8024-2c869789e32f

[IngridsLittleAngel]

221. I'll just leave it at this:

For 18 months, President Biden has made it clear he stands for trans rights and considers any and all attempts to target the trans community, discriminate them or take away their rights goes against the core values of this nation, and undermines their humanity. I would've been grateful to have this man as president at any point in my life. But in 2022? More grateful than I can say.

Hillary's recent comments were... Well, some of us interpret them as a bit less supportive. They felt more like politics than human rights. And during a time where we literally have an entire "political party" attacking us, groups of right-wing extremists threatening our lives and we're going through Hell of Earth... I can't help but to be disappointed.

Along with that, I know I've quoted Joe Biden's position many times... and have felt quite unheard.

[FreepFryer]

230. Last Wednesday

Last Wednesday

-U.S. President Joe Biden on Wednesday signed an executive order aimed at curbing discrimination against transgender youth and drying up federal funding for the controversial practice of "conversion therapy."

Biden's executive order asks the federal health and education departments to expand access to gender-affirming medical care and find new ways to counter a flurry of bills passed in U.S. states by conservative lawmakers this year that ban these treatments for transgender youth. Biden said before signing the executive order at a Pride Month reception at the White House.

Decrying what he called the "ultra-MAGA" agenda, a reference to former President Donald Trump's campaign slogan, Biden said states have introduced hundreds of bills targeting LGBTQ people, that parents of transgender youth are being harassed in Texas and Mickey Mouse is targeted in Florida for Walt Disney's defense of gay rights.

"These attacks are real and consequential for real families," Biden said.

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-pride-order-aims-conversion-160538608.html

[IngridsLittleAngel]

232. And I'll add to that: President Biden on March 30, 2022 (Transgender Day of Visibility):

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2022/03/30/a-proclamation-on-transgender-day-of-visibility-2022/

[LonePirate]

65. I admit to having problems with the "they/them" pronouns.

It’s not a gender issue for me; rather, it’s a numbers issue rooted in grammar which is the cause. My tiny brain has had it burned into it that they/them refers to more than one person so it subconsciously activates auto-correct when I need to apply they/them to a single person. I absolutely mean no offense when this happens. I am getting better but the rewiring in my brain is not finished yet. Let me just extend my apologies in advance.

[TygrBright]

96. Actually, from a grammar standpoint, single but indeterminate individuals are also "they."

"If someone persistently uses a trans person's deadname, they may be expressing transphobia."

"When someone persistently uses incorrect pronouns to refer to a trans person, it may be necessary to educate them about why that is offensive."

helpfully,
Bright

[Chellee]

147. Ill bet you use a singular they more often than you think.

Example:

Daughter: One of my classmates tripped and fell today.

Me: Oh my gosh! Were they hurt?

Daughter: No, they were okay.

[NullTuples]

160. A bit of context:

Singular they/them has been in use as accepted English grammar for about 600 years. It was during the Women's Suffrage movement that the backlash happened, in the form very similar to what Republicans are doing today: They pushed schools to teach that only singular he/him and she/her were valid. In that case it was in the very specific context and purpose of then pushing it further, where male pronouns were considered superior and to be used in generic situations. Within a generation the singular they/them had been nearly wiped out of common usage. This was again reinforced in the 1950's.

That bit of history is part of why Republicans taking over school boards and passing laws about how to teach or not teach race and gender scare me so much: it worked for them in the past. So please, help us fight back?

[Trueblue Texan]

192. ME TOOOOO!!!!

I kinda think it's disrespectful for other-gendered folks to have to use second-hand pronouns. Not to mention how confusing it is in the course of conversation. I wish, WISH someone could point me to the proper source for grammar for this issue. Maybe I should look in the Chicago Manual of Style or some other standard style manual.

[obamanut2012]

267. Omg why do you keep posting this?

At this point, I am wondering at your sincerity. You keep being told to just use proper grammar. There are no special trans or NB rules like you keep insisting.

Singular they is centuries old. You use singular they alll the time already.

[Tree-Hugger]

305. Second-hand pronouns

Who said they were second-hand? Use the pronouns people ask you to use. Your blessing or your Chicago style manual are not needed nor desired.

Trans lives trump the CSM, FWIW.

[obamanut2012]

266. Singular they has been used as centuries

Many writers have used it, including me. It is neither a new nor provocative grammar invented in the last few years by lgbt+

[DBoon]

312. I really like They/Them

I've written procedural manuals outlining step by step instructions for someone to use in the future. I have no idea who that future reader might be. Using "they" is much cleaner than "he/she".

[cloudboy07]

66. thank ya's ! freedom mean's " all people - not just a few " !

[obamanut2012]

81. Do you not get that this post breaks the new rule?

Do you not get how damned insulting you are being?

[SleeplessinSoCal]

86. I told you I'm in trouble now. n/t

[obamanut2012]

89. Wow, you are really proud of this

[2naSalit]

69. Works for me...

I hope the clarification helps to keep things civil and respectful.

[Jeebo]

73. Earl, are you one of the people ...

Earl, are you one of the people I should contact if I have some issue with the DU rules? Not that I have any specific issue at the moment, but I'll just flag you for future reference ... I would like to observe that sometimes, some of these rules are open to interpretation. Sometimes it might be a matter of opinion as to whether somebody has violated or not violated them. When I'm called on to do jury duty, if there is anything marginal about the questioned post, or if I don't understand why the post was flagged at all, I'll vote on the side of the poster. In other words, I have to be SURE before I'll vote to remove the flagged post. And I always wonder, on those rare occasions when I vote to remove the offending post, I always wonder, what happens now? Is the post removed? How many people serve on the jury? How many of them have to vote to remove the post to make that happen? Lots of questions like that.

-- Ron

[Yonnie3]

95. Some info on juries

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=modsystem

It might answer some of your questions

The number of jurors was 7 beginning in April 2014. I don't know if that has changed.

[EarlG]

99. Personal opinions will always enter into the equation

It is simply not possible to write and enforce rules that have obvious bright lines, that will produce an outcome that gives 100% satisfaction to all members all of the time.

If you are asked to serve on a Jury, and you read the post, and the rule, and you give your honest assessment of whether or not the post in question broke the rule -- in your opinion -- then that's all we ask. Thank you for serving on Juries.

[Ms. Toad]

184. What is the recourse, then, for those battered by transphobic or homophobic posts left standing?

When the jury system was implemented, there was talk of permitting appeal by the alerter. Especially as to LGBT bigotry, without some recourse to remove the offending posts, I'm afraid this new change won't make much real difference.

[Karma13612]

283. +1000

[obamanut2012]

88. "life choices" -- what about being trans is a life choice?

W

[TygrBright]

100. Yeah, referring to an element of someone's identity as a "life choice" could be offensive.

"Well, he made the life choice to be Jewish, so he has to expect some anti-semitism."

"Look, they made the life choice to be born in Mexico, how does that entitle them to seek a new life as Americans?"

illustratively,
Bright

[Jilly_in_VA]

165. That is so fcuking annoying I can't even

I have a gay granddaughter and I've had gay friends since I don't know when. I have a friend who may or may not be trans, I really don't know because I haven't seen them in a long time. I do know they are gay and refer to themself as Stephanie rather than Steve when in gay circles but not otherwise; they had difficulty with their identity because of a homophobic father. Oddly enough their sister is also gay but that was somehow sort of acceptable, go figure that one. Anyway...

Choice, my sainted Aunt Matilda. The above post illustrates choice. Or what you are having for dinner. Not hot your SRY is arranged on your chromosomes (if you can remember back to that post!).

[TygrBright]

170. I know, I know, Jilly...

My darling Uncle spent the last decade of his life separated from his beloved because back then peoples' "good friends" and "lifelong companions" were not recognized as having any right to care for them or be part of their lives or help make decisions about their care, etc.

I cannot imagine what it must have been like to have to live an entire life pretending to be someone you're not, because who you are is illegal.

sadly,
Bright

[IngridsLittleAngel]

168. There is only one "choice" when it comes to this..

We either choose to be someone we're not, which leads to a life of pain and misery and self-loathing, often leaving real scars... Or we choose to be who we are inside and give it our best shot to live a happy and healthy life.

Trans women don't wake up one day and see "Gee, wouldn't it be fun to be a woman today?" We realize we are women and accept who we really are and work to live as ourselves.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

235. I commend you for this service to DU and you have my full support!!

[yardwork]

85. This is a step in the right direction but may not be enough.

The number of hateful comments - often directed at women in one way or another - let stand by DU juries has been very disheartening. I know of at least one long-time DUer who left recently over the transphobia - and she's not trans. Neither am I. I hope that we don't have to personally affected to recognize that bigotry is not ok. I hope it's just a matter of education but I fear that's not really the problem.

[Duncan Grant]

92. Good things happen.

Thanks for the unambiguous leadership, EarlG. It’s great to see you and IngridsLittleAngel tearing down walls and building tables.

[TygrBright]

93. LOUD APPLAUSE!!!! n/t

[FoxNewsSucks]

97. Good idea.

I stay out of those discussions because I don't really understand and don't want to accidentally say something hurtful. I'm also like the above poster that automatically thinks "more than one person" when I'm using the words "they/them".

Someday I hope I'll "get it", until then I'll stick to reading things here.

On the topic of alert comments, I agree it would be helpful. Also, being able to see the subsequent posts as well as the posts leading up to the alerted one would often clarify the reason for the alert. Since many alerts are subject to "community standards" instead of absolute rule, seeing the whole conversation including the reaction could give a read of how the community reacted.

[Ocelot II]

98. Sometimes we are in need of enlightenment, or at least reminders.

A classmate from my college days (late '60s), whom I hung out with and knew pretty well (or so I thought) transitioned and had gender reassignment surgery some time in the late '70s, when it was much more uncommon. I had lost touch with them a couple of years after we graduated and didn't hear about this until probably 10 years later. At the time I was very shocked and surprised; I had no idea they had any kind of gender issues and I certainly didn't understand the situation. I now realize that they must have had a lot of courage to make that change at a time when it was both unusual and misunderstood. Their given name was one that's gender-neutral and their surname is unusual, so it was pretty easy for me to locate them on Google, and I was glad to find that they have had a long and successful career in their field. But I suppose their life when a young person might have been easier if their transition had been possible and accepted way back when.

[Takket]

103. Having read this thread, I see I'm not the only person that didn't know what deadnaming is...

Now I know.......

However I'm willing to bet we won't be the only ones that don't know what this means. Maybe you could include the definition and/or an example of this? (like referring to Kaitlyn Jenner as Bruce).

[wryter2000]

109. Even if we didn't know the term

We should know to use the correct name.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

210. This. Exactly this.

The easiest thing to do for everyone involved? Just call them what they want to be called.

For example: I sometimes discuss sports history with people. No matter what year we're talking about, I insist upon using Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Muhammad Ali, Jamaal Wilkes, etc. Even if we start discussing the earlier part of their career prior to the name change, I'll still use the name they want used today. Kareem at UCLA is still Kareem to me.

I have cisgender friends who just flat-out hate the names their parents gave them. They'll go by their middle name. They'll pick a new name. Whatever it is, I just handle it with "Well, what name do you want?" "Okay, then that's your name to me."

[NullTuples]

245. Such an excellent point, one that even conservatives with names like,

Addison "Mitch" McConnell or Rafael "Ted" Cruz should be able to grasp.

[EarlG]

115. I did wonder

whether a definition of deadnaming should be included and ultimately decided against it for the sake of brevity. I knew what it meant, but wasn't sure if others did.

Since there seem to be quite a few people in this thread only learning about it for the first time, I'll see if we can include a link to a definition of deadnaming inside the rule, so it's clear. (There are a few technical issues to discuss with Elad before I can do that though.)

[hlthe2b]

190. I would suggest putting it in the context of how journalists are expected to handle it: AP Stylebook

AP Stylebook
April 12, 2019 ·

In general, use the name by which a person currently lives or is widely known. Include a previous name or names only if relevant to story.

Deadnaming with malign intent should thus be differentiated from simply providing context while discussing the past career, successes, and life history of a prominent person. It would be unclear, for example, to do a story on Caitlyn Jenner's Olympic career without referencing her former name under which she won those medals.

[vanlassie]

104. Excellent.

[scarletlib]

105. Thank you.

[vercetti2021]

107. Thank you

It was getting extremely exhausting to deal with the transphobia here after a while. I was so ready to leave the site and just leave it behind. Like who cares if I didn't matter. Some people here obviously do not. But ill stick around a lil longer due to this change that you and Ingrid have put forth. Honestly I'll thank her for keeping me around. She is insightful and caring about our community.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

108. I also strongly support this new rule/clarification of existing rules

[Demsrule86]

110. Thank you. I alerted on a post that was clearly anti-Trans...and it was not hidden...I get that some

don't understand it and all. I have a Gay daughter so I am more sensitive to it...we have horrible murders of Trans women here in Ohio...heartbreaking.

[obamanut2012]

116. In this thread? Same

[EarlG]

139. Which post?

You alerted on two posts in this thread, both were successfully removed.

[obamanut2012]

153. Oops i didn't refresh the thread

I am honestly very sorry about that.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

140. Sadly that's pretty common

There's a certain "reasonable-ness" that the transphobic posters and TERFs manage that makes their post look innocuous to the average DUer. That's part of what is so frustrating - what is obvious to someone with any experience with the trans community may not be so clear to someone who isn't, and transphobic posters take advantage of that.

[Jack-o-Lantern]

111. Amen!

[obamanut2012]

119. Oh brother

[Behind the Aegis]

125. FYI: Posting privileges revoked

[dpibel]

132. Member for 10.5 years

And that's the hill he chooses to die on.

A good illustration, I guess, of why this rule change was needed.

[mopinko]

148. never a good idea to show your ass in the owners thread.

[Yonnie3]

159. Words of wisdom n/t

[vercetti2021]

123. You have no idea how hormones work do you?

I suggest you do research before tossing in male bodies cuz I don't have the body of a male anymore neither the strength.

[yaesu]

118. Thank you for updating the No bigotry/insensitivity" rule with the help of IngridsLittleAngel

and DU's trans members and allies.

[MineralMan]

121. When someone tells me their name, that name is what I call that person.

Same thing if they tell me their gender or pronouns they prefer. Why would anyone do otherwise? Why would anyone object?

I feel the same way about sports or whatever. If you want to play a sport as part of some team, I'm good with that. I don't really care, actually.

None of my business, actually. You tell me who you are. I'll be glad to accept that.

[Trueblue Texan]

189. Well, but what if you keep having to repeat the name,

over and over and over, because you cannot find the proper pronoun to use. I need pronouns. Am I the only one that struggles with this? Help me.

[MineralMan]

205. I ask, if there's any question. When talking to that person, though,

You works. "What pronouns do you prefer people to use when referring to you?" Then you will know.

[sheshe2]

122. Recommend.

[COL Mustard]

127. Can I still be mean to TFG and Mrs. TFG?

Seriously, thanks for strengthening the rule. It'll make this a better place to be!

[rainin]

133. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!

As a parent of a trans daughter, I've struggled with the clear lack of empathy in the comments. I know that people don't understand, having not walked in my daughter's shoes (or in mine), but I'm delighted that DU will hold itself to a higher standard. Some spaces should just be safe.

Thank you!

[Lithos]

134. TY!

Thank you for making this clarification!

[mahina]

136. Thank you for this very helpful spotlight

It helped inform me.

Aloha kākou ( all of us)

[wendyb-NC]

138. Thank you, EarlG

Very good work.

[hueymahl]

141. I appreciate the rule clarification

Even if I don't agree with it 100%, I agree to follow it. As we all should as members of this board.

[Voltaire2]

142. Thank you.

[jcgoldie]

144. well done

[Magoo48]

145. TY, being extra careful here.

[Frances]

146. I have a transgender grandson

He is a terrific young man
I’m very proud of him
And I’d like to think he would be treated with respect on DU

[crickets]

150. Thank you, EarlG!

[c-rational]

151. Thank you EarlG and IngridsLittleAngel. Well done.

[KatK]

152. Thank you! n/t

[IngridsLittleAngel]

155. You're welcome everyone and thank you EarlG

Thank you of course to EarlG. I decided to contact him in email a week or so ago over some concerns on transgender issues and topics. I appreciate him taking the time to listen to all of us - after all, it wasn't just my concerns brought to the table - his thoughts, and today's announcement. I do think the clarification to the rules and what is transphobia will be a positive step forward for all of DU, and help to make this place much more comforting and safe for our community during a very difficult and trying time.

And of course thank yous also go out to each and every one of you who here who have read, and listened, and have stood in support of our community during this insane year. As always, anytime a minority makes progress, or has to fight back for their rights and lives, it takes more than those in the cross-hairs to fight back. It takes those willing to stand alongside them, and speak up, and say "No! This is not okay! Not for them - not for anyone!"

One of those allies is none other than Joe Biden. No, our wonderful president does not post here. But he has used his platform, his voice, his position to speak out in support of us. He has used his pen to enact all he can via executive order. He has made it clear he stands 100% for trans rights and equality - including transitioning, and participation in sports. I say it all the time that I'm grateful to have him in the White House. And it is his beliefs and his positions that also inspired me to reach out to EarlG.

2022 has been a very trying year for the LGBTQ community, particularly the transgender community. What has gone on in the news has has been heartbreaking, infuriating and downright terrifying. It seems as though from January through May that it was impossible to go one day without Republican leadership attacking us in one red state or another. It has taken a tremendous toll upon all of us, obviously. That, along with some topics here getting a bit... tense... are why I felt it was best to reach out to EarlG in email over the last several days.

Obviously, we know the overwhelming majority here are positive and supportive. We also know it's not possible for everyone to know what is discrimination and what is not. Some of my dearest friends are black. Some of my dearest friends are Jewish. Thanks to the power of the internet, some of my dearest friends are not in America. If I were to ask them "What is bigotry like for you?" or "Tell me what discrimination you've seen" - as I have done sometimes - they would cite examples I could never imagine. They could tell me about experiences that'd leave my jaw on the floor, or insults I've never even heard of. I would be left with only three words: "I didn't know..." And I couldn't know. Not all of it. I'm not them. I've never walked a mile in their shoes. I don't have their experiences. I can only listen and learn.

So I do hope my efforts (on behalf of myself and the trans community, and our amazing allies here) and his efforts together will do just that: Provide more information so that people can learn.

Right now, people like me find ourselves in the cross-hairs of people who have killed before, and are willing to kill again. The same people behind Charlottesville, the same people behind 1/6, have now shifted their focus from people of color, to election results, to innocent people trying to live their lives in freedom and safety. The constant barrage from the GOP, from the right-wing media, from extremist groups, has left us hurt and angry and terrified. We're afraid of being harmed or killed just for being ourselves and trying to live our lives. We're afraid of what the Republicans are going to try to take from us today.

Sadly, some of the things that have been posted here have only added to the hurt, when now more than ever we are in need of a place to feel safe and welcome and accepted. I know, because I've conversed with more than a few trans people and our allies in DM's. Some of these people live in GOP-controlled states and are dealing with the nightmare of what is going on at home during this horrifying year. And some of the posts, the "debates" have caused more hurt. They've caused anger. Why must there be more hurt?

I saw it said up-thread "Progress not perfection." I hope that is what today will be. Progress. That someday, perfection will come. But today, we'll gladly take progress - especially when 30-40% of the country wants to regress.

I thank EarlG once again. I thank everyone who has taken the time to read and listen. I thank everyone who has been an ally. And I do hope I've done good on bringing everyone's concerns up over the last week or so.

Let's hope this leads to progress. Let's hope tomorrow is a better day than today.

[Tarc]

171. Thank you for stepping up,

It's easy to call out bigotry in right-wing folk, it's harder to call it out within our own ranks.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

215. Left or right, blue or red, all we can do in life is learn and grow

I could live to be 200 and I will never know it all. There are experiences I'll never have, paths I'll never walk, things I'll never see, people I'll never know. But I always try to learn and try to grow. Knowledge is power. Knowledge leads to growth and compassion and understanding. And it's my hope that today's announcement and the insight many of us are sharing here will be power that goes toward growth and understanding and compassion - for all.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

174. K&R. +1000.

Thank you........

[IngridsLittleAngel]

216. You're welcome

And thank you

[Callalily]

157. So sorry to hear about this problem.

But with your clarification, hopefully juries will do a better job, and posters will be more sensitive!

[Martin68]

161. Sounds good.

[NullTuples]

162. From a trans woman & parent of a trans teen...thank you so much for this.

So many of us in the community are waiting stressfully for that moment that may or may not occur with each ally when they suddenly decide that standing up for us might mean sticking their neck out a bit and it's just not worth it. It happens, a lot. Especially recently. So for DU to double down in doing the right thing...means more than I can put into words.

Thank you EarlG, IngridsLittleAngel and everyone here at DU who is fighting back.

[Oppaloopa]

163. Sorry I was recently asked to be on a jury.I did not understand the rd2 and star wars If there was r

room I would have stated that I did not understand . This was the first time I did not understand Never seen star wars and did not even know what they were talking about

[uppityperson]

164. K&R

[Javaman]

166. thank you so much!

I have read a couple of truly horrible posts on here, regarding trans folks, that were never taken down.

and from my personal experience, being of Italian heritage, the epithet "wop" was bandied around in a particular thread. I brought it up in a private pm to the author of the post, asking politely to either edit or remove the post, I was never responded to and the post remained, even after I finally alerted on it.

words hurt.

we need to do better and this is s a good step.

[Skittles]

167. this is why I keep donating to DU

DU keeps evolving! Thank you.

[Ms. Toad]

172. Thank you,

And thanks to ingridsLittleAngel.

I've been fighting this battle since the gay purge, and expressly brought this very concern up when the jury system was implemented, and again, when the ability to explain the alert was removed.

I quoted your last post on the matter last week and got a lot of flack for it.

This is a significant acknowledgement that as to LGBT people, and specifically trans people, the jury system just isn't working well, and that it is very uncomfortable in a place that ought to feel like home.

Thank you!!!

[Totally Tunsie]

177. Thank you EarlG and IngridsLittleAngel. Very nicely handled!

As always, another learning experience here on DU - "Deadnaming" is a new term for me, but it makes absolute sense.

It saddens me to see hatefulness, transphobia, and shaming on this important place to meet with otherwise "like minded" Dems. Head in the sand, I hope to believe we are better than that and are capable of evolving.

I would like to make one other suggestion, and it applies across all threads on DU, not just related to this issue:

If one is quoting from an article, post, text, tweet, whatever, would you please review the method of highlighting the excerpt (such as I just did with this sentence) so that the reader can delineate the quote from the poster's individual opinion?

This task seems to have gotten lost along the way, and it's sometimes several sentences into a post before reader realizes what they are reading is not the poster's opinion. It can certainly make a difference as to how the reader is interpreting the post as it is being read, and I feel that could be helpful. Many thanks...

[KY_EnviroGuy]

179. Reaffirms my fragile membership in the PTL Club.

Patience, Tolerance and Love Club........

Earl, being an old-fashioned old man raised in the South, DU has proven to be one of the learning jewels of my entire life. That and prior to retirement, many years of traveling in my work all around our nation. So, here I am again today learning several things about tolerance and love from your post and the mostly wonderful replies.

I'm always honored to be call to jury duty but often feel helpless not knowing the full context of a post, so generally default to forgiveness and tolerance, as I was raised.

Thanks to you and others that maintain (and tolerate) DU every day!

KY......

[Autumn]

180. Thank you. This has been a long time coming.

[Trueblue Texan]

182. Thanks for the clarity...

But I need so much more education. I had to look up deadnaming. And that is only one thing. And I want to say here that I respect everyone for who they are, regardless or how they identify, by race, gender, or any other way, but ignorance in this area is socially crippling. It reminds me of how people who are so afraid of being racist won't say the word "black" when there is a black person around.

For example I struggle terribly with the pronoun "they, " for one thing. My daughters often chastise me because I think that "they" is a troublesome pronoun for non-cis (and that's a new term for me, too!) persons. I know I cannot be the only one who struggles with it, although I do my very best to be respectful and sensitive to people who choose to use the pronoun. But to my 65 year old ears, "they" will always be plural. If I invite my trans (now, see I don't know what to call Madison because Madison's gender has changed--Madison was once my niece. What is the appropriate noun now?) oh let me say it another way: If I invite Madison to dinner, for example, this is what a sentence may sound like if I don't really slow down and try to cobble together something that makes better sense--and this isn't easy: I've invited Madison to dinner. They is bringing over the photo album. See? it just doesn't work. It just sounds like I've got bad grammar. But the only alternative I know is to continue repeating Madison's name without any pronouns like I'm advertising Madison for something.

Does anyone know someplace I can go to learn how to refer to transgender persons properly so that I don't sound illiterate or insensitive?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

203. Ask them how they want to be called

I have a couple enby (non-binary) friends who use they/them - and occasionally I do slip up and misgender. They know it isn't malicious, and I apologize and correct myself, and that's it.

[Trueblue Texan]

234. I don't have a problem when I'm directly addressing them.

I have a problem when I'm speaking of them to others. Example: Jasmine is coming to dinner. They is bringing white wine. Do you see the problem?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

241. Not really

Do you say “Someone is stopping by. They is coming at 4.”
Singular they has been used for centuries, but now that people ask to called they/them, people are having issues with it.
Grammar doesn’t trump misgendering for me.

[Tree-Hugger]

297. No problem

" They are bringing white wine."

People are murdered for being trans. Using their pronouns doesn't hurt.

[obamanut2012]

309. No, unless you can show me where trans folks aren't allowed have grammar rules applied to them

Link please? When was this law passed, where, by whom?

Oh, there isn't one. Gotcha.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

213. I know some situations can be confusing. Best advice? Ask them

I had a friend many years ago and sometimes mix-ups would happen. A she in RL - and I mean absolutely identified as she, used she, left no doubt she's a female. Online? Chose to present as male. So sometimes I would slip up - refer to the RL one as "he" or vice versa. I tried my best but sometimes it'd slip, especially depending upon the context. Ultimately we just decided it would be easier to use "they" or "them", no matter whether we were talking about online or real life.

But the best thing to do? Ask them. Most people are fine telling you. And if they say they prefer she, or he, or they, or even just their name? Go for it. And, yes, I do know a few people who find it easier to avoid any issue over pronouns and say "Just use my name." If that makes them happy? All good.

[Trueblue Texan]

236. This is not my problem.

I understand I can ask them how they prefer to be addressed and have had no problem speaking to individuals as they prefer. The problem is when I'm speaking about them: Jerry is coming to dinner. They is bringing the bread. See? Jerry is a single person. But without saying "Jerry" in every instance, the pronoun "they" doesn't work. I don't like that there is no appropriate singular pronoun that respects those who identify other than binary. It's very confusing and contributes to poor communication. There must be some grammar rules about this.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

255. I've probably forgotten half of my grammar over the decades

Truthfully, I can't even call that a major concern. The main concern is referring to people how they wish to be referred - whether it's a name or pronouns. Once again, the best suggestion I can make for doing so is to ask someone if you're uncertain.

[obamanut2012]

262. It is are, not is

They are coming to dinner.

Or she or him. Whatever they use.

[Karma13612]

284. OK, that

Wording seems better. Thanks!

[obamanut2012]

263. It is are, not is

They are coming to dinner.

Or she or him. Whatever they use.

[Kali]

217. they are bringing over the photo album

it really isn't that hard. ask Madison for help. if they were your niece and are transitioned I would expect he is your nephew, but to be certain just ask what they (see?) prefer.

[Trueblue Texan]

238. Ok. Let me explain it another way.

It's more of a grammatical issue than a personal communication issue. Let's say I'm writing a fictional story about a transgendered person who doesn't identify as male or female. Here's two versions of a paragraph about Jerry:

1. Jerry wrapped Jerry's hands around the coffee cup.


2. Jerry wrapped they's hands around the coffee cup.

Both of those are terrible. It's confusing and clunky and does not communicate clearly. But if you were speaking of a cis person, there's not a problem.

Mary wrapped her hands around the coffee cup.

I don't care how someone chooses to identify. I am happy to respect it. But I am not happy with the grammar rules that seem to be in effect right now regarding persons who identify differently. I'm not talking about speaking TO someone I'm talking about speaking about them in 3rd person.

[Ms. Toad]

244. You are elevating "rules" over people.

Never a good look, especially when you are actually ignoring the rules.

Jerry wrapped their hands around the coffee cup.

They are coming over for dinner.

You use the form of the verb which matches the pronoun. They is a plural pronoun, so you use the plural verb form (even when you are using they to refer to a single person).

Someone who is serious about it being a grammar issue, rather than a reluctance to use the person's pronoun, would listen to how people who honor personal pronouns speak or do a little research. It isn't hard to find using Google, or any other search engine.

Here's a link to the American psychological association's style manual on the matter. https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they

[Trueblue Texan]

268. Do not project your own biases onto others.

I’ve always said I’m more than happy to use the preferred address to everyone. I have never had a problem with that and I respect ALL people that respect others. (Sorry I can’t claim to respect right wing nut jobs). This is not elevating grammar over people. This is trying to get the grammar to make sense. I am a word person and this is important to me. I admitted I didn’t understand the grammatical rules on this one and I’m not alone. That is a much different issue from being a bigot and I DEEPLY resent your implication. I started out asking for help, not judgement or snark. I thought I was in a safe place to do that—kind of like asking for ways I can show respect properly instead of in ways that confuse the listener/reader. Do not construe that as anything more than a question about grammar because that is all it is.

Your comment about plural verb form makes sense and I appreciate the reference you provided. (Except that “”They are coming to dinner still sounds like we might need to set out more than one extra plate.) You might have offered it in a less offensive manner, however I am grateful for the clarification and the resource.

[Ms. Toad]

275. Perhaps you don't have the life experience to understand how your comments came across.

Last edited Tue Jun 21, 2022, 10:50 PM - Edit history (1)

I have no problem with gays, as long a they keep it in the bedroom.
I have no problem with gays, but marriage is defined as a man and a woman, do they should find a different name.
I have no problem with trans athletes but they need to have their own team, restroom, etc.

I have heard that kind of phrasing all my life, and it is the but that tells the real story.

Your question didn't seem like a sincere inquiry about how to be supportive. It seemed like an excuse to not use a plural they, especially since it is so easy to find out how it has been used for decades, especially in recent years. Especially since you persisted, bringing up incorrect constructions to demonstrate it didn't work. And especially since there are other "yes, but comments," some from people who were banned for them.

I apologize it you were sincere - I hope you realize my reaction was understandable, given the atmosphere around here which made this thread necessary, and given the other "yes, but" comments in this thread.

[obamanut2012]

306. +1

100% Sealioning.

[Tree-Hugger]

299. 'Less offensive manner"

To be fair, several people have tried to explain how "they/them" pronouns work and you're still fighting for your life in these comments, purposefully using poor grammar to make your point. Perhaps people are being snarky with you because you've repeatedly shown that you care more about supposed grammar ( note: singular "they/them" is grammatically correct, anyway) than you do about the dignity of trans people. Your posts sound like this, "I respect the trans people, BUT...." That "but" is very problematic. You are elevating your own misunderstanding of grammar above the identities of human beings. Trans people and queer people in general are at high risk of being victims of violence and murder. And you want to argue, incorrectly, that you can't figure out how to say, "Jerry wrapped their hands around the coffee mug?" Stop.

DU has trans members. DU has non-binary members. DU has members who use "they/them" pronouns. And they are sitting here, reading this of arguments over incorrect grammar, which are a pretty loud dog-whistle. They have heard these feigned concerns before and they knew exactly what it means. Just a helpful hint, the RW bigots use the attack of pronouns as a stepping stone down their path of anti-trans and anti-queer horrors. "Misunderstandings" and mocking of pronouns is one of their methods of stripping away the humanity and dignity from trans folks. Once you strip that humanity, it becomes easier to accept the other atrocities. So....tread carefully there because your arguments are not a good look.

[Kali]

247. ...

Jerry's hands wrapped around the coffee cup.

Jerry wrapped their hands around the coffee cup.

[Trueblue Texan]

270. Passive voice, sentence 1.

More than one extra plate?—sentence 2.

Ms Toad suggested “Jerry wrapped their hands around the coffee cup. “. That works better but if the antecedent isn’t clear there’s a problem. You must use Jerry’s name, in other words. I know language is always changing and this one is probably still getting worked out. I have a source to research now. Thanks.

[obamanut2012]

307. Just stop it

[obamanut2012]

264. Why do you keep using improper grammar when talking about this?

In several posts you do this. Why are you insisting on using improper grammar? The singular they has been used for literal centuries. I've used it in writing for 30 years. NB folks use proper grammar. I don't get why you are insisting you have to use some bad grammar rules you are literally making up from whole cloth.

It feels almost mocking because you keep saying this with no basis, no matter how many times it is explained. Please, don't.

[Trueblue Texan]

271. Well it's because I don't know the correct grammar!

That’s why I asked for help! I am trying to learn. Why does that upset you? I have admitted my ignorance, FFS! I am gaining understanding. Calm down.

[obamanut2012]

273. You literally know the correct grammar already

But, even if that was true (which it isn't, you literally keep posting the correct grammar), you have been told many times what to do. At this point, it is feeling like you just want to poke LGBT+ in a PA way. You are refusing to "learn."

I am done here.

And, do not tell me to calm down. My God. Read the OP, read posts from LGBT+, and try to read the damn room. Quit tone policing me.

[Trueblue Texan]

277. Jesus.

I didn't understand the usage. Never-fucking-mind.

[obamanut2012]

291. But you do understand the grammar re: they

You say it so many times in all your posts, but you keep using incorrect grammar, spoofishly bad grammar, for trans folks. "They is." But, you KNOW it's "they are." So, why do you think someone trans isn't allowed to use correct grammar? Especially when we say "they are" for singular use many, many times a day. And, you kept asking asking asking about the "They is," even when several different posters corrected you. This is why I think you are being disingenuous, because you were educated several times, and you still refused to read the room.

Then, you use tone policing when folks correct you, tell me to calm down (wtf), and now again try to put this on me.

Congrats on showing posters classic DARVO. Many folks think it has to be really aggressive and in your face, but it actually rarely is. Well done, you.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

295. Textbook microagression and sealioning nt

[quaint]

302. +++

[AZSkiffyGeek]

303. I suppose it's nice to have a perfect example in the thread about what not to do

But it's also disheartening...

[obamanut2012]

304. I really hope EarlG sees this thread

This is literally what we are all talking about -- the Oh gosh, little ole ignorant me? act is such BS.

[Tree-Hugger]

311. But...but...

What will the Chicago Style Manual think?

I hope EarlG sees this. Even if their posts are removed, at least the responses will remain and people will see why the grammar concern is a dog whistle.

Literally...it's a sealion wearing a dog whistle.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

308. I'll try to answer this fairly...

As some of the other replies have pointed out, right now trans and NB people are finding themselves being targeted by the GOP, being skewered in the right-wing media, and being threatened by extreme-right domestic terrorists. Right now, that is a far bigger concern than whether or not the grammar "sounds right."

If a person says they prefer she, use she. If a person says they prefer he, use he. If a person says they prefer they or them, use they or them. Same when it comes to names. The center for UCLA from 1966-69 is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The winner of the 1960 light heavyweight gold medal is Muhammad Ali. The winner of the 1976 gold medal in the decathlon is Caitlyn Jenner.

I don't want to be snarky, but, ask Grammarly how to properly phrase and use they/them pronouns. I try but I'm no grammar expert myself anymore. I probably use too many commas, start too many sentences with "and", don't quite phrase perfectly, etc.. myself.

I can promise you, though, that if someone says "I prefer they/them" and you say "They is..." when it should be "They are...", that person will not be upset, as you're at least trying to accommodate their wishes and respect them. They won't feel the same way if in the name of "grammar" you opt for the wrong pronoun.

Hopefully this helps. And hopefully you can understand why some of the replies sound frustrated, to put it mildly. What should be a simple "if they prefer they, use they" seems to be going in circles and at times sounds like a debate over grammar instead of simply going with chosen pronouns.

[Trueblue Texan]

316. I sincerely appreciate this explanation.

It may come as a shock to some here, but there are people like me who went to school a long time ago and we never had these kinds of discussions in English class. Maybe there are those here who cannot appreciate my ignorance and confusion on this subject, but I NEVER intend to be disrespectful and asked these questions with a sincere desire to better understand how the grammar rules work. Even the singular form of “they” referred to a group the last time I studied grammar. And YES! I know “is” sounds completely wrong with the pronoun “they”. That’s why I brought it up—because I didn’t understand how they could require a plural form of a verb when it was referring to a singular subject.

This is the last I’ll EVER say on this subject on this site. But I appreciate those of you who tried to help me understand. And I sincerely apologize to anyone I may have insulted. I promise you with every drop of blood and bone in my body, that was never my intention. I’m sure in my ignorance, I will mess up from time to time, but I am not a disrespectful or insensitive person and I’ve always supported people with different gender identity, even before I knew there was name for it. If you assumed some kind of gaslighting intention, you would be incorrect.

That is all.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

317. You're welcome

And my thanks for reading and listening and understanding.

[Karma13612]

285. 3. Jerry wrapped their hands around the coffee cup. (Maybe?) eom

[Saviolo]

289. A hypothetical.

You find someone's wallet on the street, and it contains no identifying information.

Do you wonder how they lost their wallet?
Do you try to figure out who they are?
Do you take any steps to reunite them with their property?

You didn't find three wallets, just one.

[Tree-Hugger]

296. "Transgendered"

Since you claim to be eager to learn....the term "transgendered" is outdated and out of favor with the trans community. That's actually poor grammar. It would be similar to me saying I'm "Irished" or "whited."

If you want to read more on that:

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender/transgender-identity-terms-and-labels

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/18/8055691/transgender-transgendered-tnr

This one even includes a helpful section entitled, " Basics of writing a transgender story:"

https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

As to your examples, which honestly seem like you are deliberately using poor grammar:

"Jerry wrapped their hands around the coffee cup." Not difficult.

My standard reminder - it is not the job of marginalized people to educate you. Some choose to do so, but it should not be an expectation or requirement.

Fun fact, I noted that you claim age as ignorance to the use of the singular "they." The use of singular "they" has been around since the 1300's.

The pronouns you use for people are the ones they ask you to use. Nothing more or less. Most transgender, genderqueer, and non-binary people are very understanding that people have difficulty remembering pronouns at first. If you slip up, just quickly correct it and move on. No big explanation or lengthy apology. And certainly don't make a big speech about grammar. Transgender folks are not asking for your grammatical blessing (which would be moot, since singular "they" is not incorrect. They are asking you to treat them as humans and identify them the way they ask.

[obamanut2012]

298. Thank you for this

As to your examples, which honestly seem like you are deliberately using poor grammar:

[Tree-Hugger]

300. No problem

I think you and I often and up advocating in these threads. We know microaggressions when we see them. 💜

[obamanut2012]

310. I agree

It's unfortunately easy when you had it happen to you for decades!

:hugs:

[ArizonaLib]

187. Awesome!

Thanks!

I love the DU!

[stonecutter357]

193. K&R !

[Alice Kramden]

194. Thank you, EarlG

Well said

[PatrickforB]

195. Acknowledged. Good idea.

[HAB911]

196. Bravo

[Stinky The Clown]

204. WayTaGo DU, WayTaGo Admins!

[AverageOldGuy]

208. Thank you.

While I'm in no way the most active poster or commenter, I make myself heard from time to time. I'm an old guy -- 77 -- grew up in a very different time, in the rural South. I'm still learning about the trans world and I appreciate DU taking this stand.

[FloridaBlues]

212. Thanks. Great idea

[AwakeAtLast]

214. This is wonderful!

Thank you for supporting all DUers!

Also , thank you for including body type. This fat lady sings because she's damn good at it!

[Politicub]

219. This is great, and it will make DU even stronger.

[gopiscrap]

220. thank you for this

[RKP5637]

222. K&R !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[marble falls]

223. Thankyou!!!

[PTWB]

225. This is a good change.

Hopefully it will be enough of a change that the juries begin to hide the offending posts with more regularity.

Would it be possible to allow an alerted to explain what the violation is in a particular post? It might go a long way if the alerted could point out that the post they’ve alerted in is bigoted because the poster in question used incorrect pronouns after being told what the correct pronouns were, or deadnamed someone, or anything else really.

Maybe some context from the alerted about the alert would make it easier for jurors to more accurately and fairly analyze the post?

I suppose the flip side of this is that someone could mischaracterize the post they’re alerting to try to bias the jurors and get someone’s post hidden when it didn’t break a rule.

Perhaps we could have a modification to the jury process where after an alert (with context from the alerted) is submitted, the poster whose post was alerted on is given a notice that one of their posts has been sent to the jury, and that poster has 15 minutes to respond to the context given by the alerted, at which point the jurors are selected, can weigh both the alerter’s context and the poster’s response, and then make their decision?

After writing that out it seems like it would be a lot to code in. Just brainstorming.

[Eliot Rosewater]

229. You know who doesnt have this problem?

Any rightwing board or group, they would never do a thing to prevent bigotry and transphobia, etc.
They promote it.

Well done, Earl.

[BidenRocks]

239. Last, but not least.....

Marines in the 70s and I had to listen to the crap, because speaking out is worse.
Sound familiar?
I'm a friend to everyone who is a friend to me.
I am seriously getting too old for this shit!

[Scruffy1]

242. You rock. Keep up the good work, n/t.

[Mad_Machine76]

243. Thank you!

And thank IngridsLittleAngel for advocating for this. I’ve been concerned about some transphobic content on here as well for awhile now, particularly when it comes to the sports “issue”.

[Lucinda]

249. ❤️ ✿❧🌿❧✿ ❤️

[Upthevibe]

250. EarlG....

Thank you!

[CaptainTruth]

251. 100% agree!!! I myself have been attacked here on DU, for different reasons...

...reasons that I'm not sure are covered in any existing rule.

I considered leaving, but ultimately decided that I would not allow any bully to drive me away from a family I love so much.

That was my decision, one that I had to wrestle with & lose sleep over, but I'm glad to see this change so that hopefully some DU members won't have to endure the kind of bullying attacks I did & feel like they have no recourse because it doesn't clearly/obviously violate a stated rule.

[TDale313]

253. Thank you.

Glad to see this change.

[ismnotwasm]

254. K&R

[MyMission]

257. Thank you, and I apologize for any insensitivity

I might have displayed during jury service.

I seem to recall a post that I was asked to review, concerning a trans sports issue that I did recognize and think about. I decided it was only an opinion expressed and not motivated by bigotry or insensitivity. I didn't necessarily agree with the poster, but didn't see how it was hurtful to the person who alerted. It just looked like an opinion or point of view that wasn't harsh or obvious. I definitely would look at it differently now, with the rule change.

What I understand now, is that if we don't care for or about the post we don't need to reply.
If it's a discussion or poll about a topic, that's another story but decorum is still needed.
We all need to be mindful of how we reply as well as how we serve as jurors.

I will try to be sensitive to this issue in the future.

Thank you again EarlG, for all you do for DU.

[LostOne4Ever]

258. Thank you so very much!

This is a very needed and appreciated statement! Thank you again!

[Lunabell]

259. Yes! Yes! Yes!

I'm a lesbian and a trans ally all the way!!!

[Aussie105]

260. Everybody deserves respect.

No matter what you think about them.

May the deity, she with the purple skin and many arms, bestow her blessings on those who can do that consistently.

I grew up bigoted and judgemental without knowing it. Cause unknown.

I discovered I was that way later in life, and have made an effort. Not there yet, work in progress.

Jury duty? I do my best, but sometimes it's a close call and I never know if I did it right.

[MindHowYouGo]

276. Thank You!

If you're struggling with using "they," think about "you."

Singular you was a plural pronoun that has become singular as well.

You functioned as a polite singular for centuries, but in the seventeenth century singular you replaced thou, thee, and thy (except for some dialect use).

As others have pointed out, they as a singular gender-nonspecific pronoun has been around since the thirteenth century and was widely used until the eighteenth century when forgetful grammarians began warning that singular they was an error because a plural pronoun can’t take a singular antecedent. Dictionaries have explicitly reaffirmed the use of singular they since at least the 1990s.

[Karma13612]

287. Makes sense!

In other words, “you” and “they” can refer to both singular as well as multiple people.

So, we can dispense with the use of “you’s guys” when a person addresses multiple people in a group. They can say “you”. I always thought the phrase “you’s guys” sounded rather clunky and inarticlulate.

Simple!

Thanks!

[Metatron]

279. I greatly appreciate this, EarlG

It makes me proud to be a member of DU.

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

286. Thank you. You expressed this far more tactfully, and graciously,

than I could have.

[RainCaster]

288. Thank you both for taking the time and care to educate us all on this important issue

I will have your back on jury calls.

[FreeState]

294. Thank you!

This is a much needed change and hopefully will help make us queer folk more comfortable here.

[Tree-Hugger]

301. Thank you

I have seen alerted posts remain and it's disheartening.

I wish we could say that transphobia doesn't exist here, but it does. Collectively, we are much, much, MUCH better than the GOP, but there are incidents of transphobia on DU (and right here on this thread) and I hope that this post reminds people to be more discerning on juries. Hopefully, we don't have to read many more posts on banning athletes or support of comedians who are "just joking."

[ificandream]

314. One reason why DU is my favorite place to post

Unlike some other places I've posted on, DU really cares about its members. Thanks, EarlG and IngridsLittleAngel.

[Karma13612]

318. A day (or 3 ) late, and a dollar short-

Hi, I was just alerted to jury duty here (Jun 23) and it was on this very topic of Bigotry.

I accepted the responsibility of serving as I always do, until I can see the meat of the conflict thru the posts that are provided.

I have a suggestion to make to the administrators or the individuals who create the format for jury service.

This specific jury service/conflict was around Christianity and bigotry. It was delving into subjects which I am just not at all comfortable debating. As a result, I selected the option to exit out of jury service. I appreciate that option.

BUT, I would very much like to ask for the ability to give my reason for exiting without completing my service. Is there a way to allow the jury service participant to give a quick comment as to why they are exiting the service and not giving a verdict.

My comment for today’s situation would have been:
I am not well enough versed in Christianity to fully appreciate what is at issue and to decide if the poster was being bigotted.

I hope the Administrators could provide us the option (strictly voluntary) to provide a reason for us exiting out of the service without giving a verdict. And also, if feasible, to even give a reason for how we voted if we did go thru with giving our verdict. Again, it could be an option, but not required.

Thanks everyone and have a great day.

Of course, those of us in NY State, might still be licking our wounds considering what SCOTUS just decided in The Rifle Association vs Bruen case. I live in NY and am feeling decidedly less safe now.

[wendyb-NC]

319. Thank you, EarlG

[marble falls]

321. Thnkyou, thankyou, thankyou.

[riversedge]

325. Good move. Thanks