Government Backs Off From Banning Assault Rifle Bullet

[Purveyor]

Source: CNNMoney

Agency receives 80,000 comments on proposal, most of them against the ban

UPDATED 3:11 PM EDT Mar 10, 2015

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) —Amid a massive outcry from gun enthusiasts, the government has backed away from a proposed ban on a specific bullet used in assault rifles that can pierce vests and body armor worn by police officers.

In a bid to protect police officers, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives had recently announced a proposal to ban the armor-piercing M855 bullet, which is used in assault rifles such as the AR-15.

However, when the agency opened its proposal to public comment, it received a tsunami of 80,000 comments, most of them against the ban.

"The vast majority comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study," said the ATF. "Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework."

Read more: http://www.wmur.com/money/government-backs-off-from-banning-assault-rifle-bullet/31716912

[niyad]

1. bloody cowards

[yeoman6987]

2. When you get 80k letter saying stop

What would you do? 80k is a big percentage of the adult population. I wonder why no support letters were sent.

[Politicalboi]

4. They get more for pot legalization

And all we get from them are laughs. They are cowards.

[Reter]

54. The ATF does not handle anything to do with drugs

Any letters about pot that get sent to them would be a mistake.

[Kurska]

75. Not to be a smart arse, but

Alcohol and Tobacco.

I get your point though.

[niyad]

5. wow--way less than 1/10 of 1 percent of the adult population is NOT a "big percentage."

how do you know no support letters were sent?

[yeoman6987]

12. We have a little over 100 million adults in USA

[yeoman6987]

13. Oh damn. Forget my dumb post.

I was thinking 80 million. Yep....dummy tonight.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. "(H)ow do you know no support letters were sent?" Undoubtedly, some were

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. Where were the "grassroots gun safety organizations" during all this?

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. Asleep, apparently. No wonder they can't win, despite all the noise they make

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

40. Over 150K to enforce the Logan Act against #47Traitors.

But that will mean nothing.

[Oktober]

64. That is because there is a legal standard...

You don't get to prosecute based on petition....

It isn't American Idol...

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

71. What the did fits the standard of the Logan Act perfectly.

§ 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply himself, or his agent, to any foreign government, or the agents thereof, for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.
///////////////////////////////////////
Their intent was to elicit concern by the Iranians that the US will not uphold the agreement if a Republican becomes President. Their intent is to scuttle the talks. This should be obvious in any courtroom.

[jberryhill]

3. How should notice and comment rules operated under the Administrative Procedure Act?

Was the FCC also cowardly to take public comments into account?

[Adrahil]

10. Useless ban anyway. It would not have made a single person safer. n/t

[cstanleytech]

11. Ya but then again getting a bullet ban past the scotus could be next to impossible.

Now stricter gun registration and licensing laws (with stricter penalties for breaking said laws) might survive SCUTUS because there isnt anything in the Constitution that bans having to register or get a license to own a gun.

[NaturalHigh]

26. You have a strange definition of "cowards."

Listening to the opinions of people, the majority of whom were against this ban (as the ATF has said)), is not cowardly.

There is a word for governments that ignore the will of the people - dictatorship.

[frylock]

31. the government has been ignoring the will of the people since forever

[NaturalHigh]

57. No doubt. That doesn't mean it's right.

[niyad]

38. caving in to the gun nuts is PRECISELY that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026348844

[beevul]

41. Nonsense.

ATF proposed a ban on a bullet, that when the congress which passed the law in question, specifically exempted.

ATF ignored the legal definition of "armor piercing", which the rounds in question do not qualify as.

If not being allowed to ignore the law as written and intended by congress, means "caving", then I suppose you're right or something...

[NaturalHigh]

55. You see no value in considering public opinion?

It seems to me that's a virtue if we are to have a "government of the people."

[Oktober]

65. Just the right people...

The ones who agree with her position....

[NaturalHigh]

68. Yes, of course. The "enlightened."

[friendly_iconoclast]

67. What did *your* email to the ATF say? How many others did you get to write them?

[Kurska]

78. I've seen this question get asked about 10 times now.

Always ignored.

[Geronimoe]

6. Campaign and political party funding

When you need to raise $30K everyday to get re-elected, you can't do what is sane and best for society or the country.

[groundloop]

7. The NRA is certainly good at pulling its' members' strings

Fear fear fear. "They" are gonna' take away your toys.

[greatlaurel]

8. This was a brilliant marketing strategy to get people to buy basically junk that has no market.

Put it out as ammo for handguns, get it reviewed by ATF, create a media frenzy and thousands of fools rush out to buy it before it is "banned". The gun marketers have got this down pat. They manipulate the poor gun culture followers shamelessly to make massive profits by creating panic buying. Fools and their money are easily parted.

[friendly_iconoclast]

16. M855 ammunition isn't "junk", is legal in New Jersey, and was already quite popular

Your prejudice seems to have gotten in the way of understanding what you comment upon.

[sir pball]

47. While it is quite popular, it's most definitely junk. Least accurate thing I've ever used.

Without getting overly long winded, I've personally tested it in my bolt-action tackdriver and cheapo Wolf 62 is markedly better, let alone quality brand-name stuff.

That being said, I didn't think the proposal was a good idea, and if fools wish to part with their money via artificially overpriced cases of M855, it's none of my business to stop them.

[X_Digger]

9. Wait, as if *any* centerfire rifle (.308, 30-30, .30-06, .243, etc) wouldn't pierce a typical vest??

The typical 'bulletproof' vest that police officers wear are designed to stop common handgun ammunition.

The 'deer rifle' that your grandpappy uses every year will totally go through it.

[wordpix]

18. not exactly well communicated that ATF was taking comments

I would have made comment if I knew

[Travis_0004]

52. Its not like they cant be contacted

I sent them an email against the ban.

[Skittles]

19. gun humpers are well-organized

cowards scream hard

[Shamash]

20. Amused by the fauxtrage

So, which is it?

1) Gun control extremists do -not- represent the position most Americans want and therefore should -not- be the voice paid the most attention to in a democratic system of government.

and/or

2) Gun control extremists are so uninformed and/or apathetic about the issue that they did not know about a potential ammo ban that was -widely- publicized (including here at DU and at Kos), did not care enough to go to a web site to register their support for it, or both.

[Skittles]

42. the NRA is what is organized

Last edited Wed Mar 11, 2015, 07:44 PM - Edit history (1)

the sheep mentality follow suit

how wonderful to be aligned with teabagging pieces of shit like Nugent and Zimmerman. ENJOY!

[Lurks Often]

23. Will you be posting the letter you wrote to the ATF?

or is the only effort you make to support gun control is name calling here?

[NaturalHigh]

25. Straight out of the gun ban playbook.

Insults and accusations, the main talking points for the anti-gun crowd. More and more Democratic politicians are realizing what a losing issue gun control is. Every time a few fringe types try to ban something, Democrats get painted with the gun control brush.

It's enough to enforce current laws and keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Law-abiding citizens who keep firearms to protect their families and themselves shouldn't have to suffer for the irrational fears of some anti-gunners.

As for "gun humpers" being organized, the anti-gunners have the billions and the organization of the Bloomberg cabal.

[RandiFan1290]

21. So nice of the dems to manufacture this victory for the 'publicons!

[ileus]

22. Finally some common sense from those who seek to control...

[NaturalHigh]

24. Good decision.

It was a useless, feel-good ban, much like the so-called "assault weapons ban," that did nothing to protect anyone. The ATF was just looking to throw a bone to the anti-gun types.

[Orsino]

27. "Amid a massive astroturfed outcry from the gun lobby and its impotent stooges..."

Fixed the typos.

[riversedge]

29. bingo

[hack89]

34. "Astroturfed" - you just broke my irony meter

what side of the issue is dependent on a Republican billionaire and an ex-Monsanto PR flack?

[Orsino]

35. What's the irony?

And what part of this outcry wasn't driven by the gun lobby?

[hack89]

37. The irony is that the gun control movement is astroturf.

the outcry was driven primarily by gun owners on social media. I don't think it was astroturfed.

It was pure stupidity for the ATF to do this - not sure what they were thinking.

[Orsino]

45. The gun owners were driven to reflexive anger by the astroturfing of the gun lobby.

No, gun control isn't astroturfed.

[beevul]

46. Let me get this strait...

Let me get this strait:

Atf proposes a ban on a particular round. Fact, it happened.

Congress, when they passed the law banning armor piercing ammo, specifically exempted this round, because it isn't really "armor piercing". Also fact.

ATF does not therefore have legal authority to ban it. Again, fact.


And you think pro-gun people had to be directed to be angry by a "lobby" about it?


Puh-leeze.




And yes, the gun control lobby is 95 percent astroturfed.

[Orsino]

48. The gun enthusiasts who panicked at this nothing of a story...

...have been carefully trained to react when prompted. By the astroturfing of the gun lobby, and by every screen that ever showed a gun as an easy solution to a complex problem.

They've also been trained not to notice who's pulled the strings of the NRA.

There is no such astroturfing in the gun control movement, which is driven by those directly or indirectly harmed by gun violence. Not by corporate lobbyists somehow trying to make billions from not selling guns and ammo. Gun control as a movement is the opposite of the astroturfed Tea Partiers, birthers, anti-marriagers...and yes, Second Amendment supremacists.

[beevul]

49. Wow, and I thought I had seen "over the top" before.

The gun enthusiasts who panicked at this nothing of a story have been carefully trained to react when prompted. By the astroturfing of the gun lobby, and by every screen that ever showed a gun as an easy solution to a complex problem.

That's an opinion not supported by fact.

There is no such astroturfing in the gun control movement, which is driven by those directly or indirectly harmed by gun violence. Not by corporate lobbyists...

Does the name mike Bloomberg ring a bell? Does the name Shannon "Monsanto" Watts ring a bell?

But hey, if you don't like reality, feel free to keep making up your own.


And I note, no apparent outrage from you when law enforcement overreaches and ignores the letter of the law.

Because guns, right?

[Orsino]

70. Bloomberg and Watts are not financing an astroturfed gun control movement.

They are not running commercials on radio, they are not paying pundits to expose gun violence, and they have not trained Congresscritters to jump at the sound of their voices.

Those are the hallmarks of the gun lobbyist, who do astrturf.

[Kurska]

77. Bloomberg has done all those things

Though to be fair, there are also other issues close to his heart. He hasn't yet slain the "Slightly larger container of soda" demons that plaguing the American people, so gun control can't command his full attention yet.

[Orsino]

79. He doesn't have or wield anywhere near the influence of the gun lobby. No one does.

We can tell because so few in Congress will stand up for even minor or common-sense gun restrictions. The Right, however, are afraid to do anything other than parrot the lobbyists' talking points, and even most Dems are on tip-toes, feeling obligated to be photographed with guns every election cycle.

It's not because Americans don't want any gun control--polls demonstrate that we do. It's the money, the lobbyists' astroturfing money that makes the Second Amendment supremacists look like a majority to the undiscerning eye.

[beevul]

80. Explain why, then, in the colorado recalls bloomberg outspent gun rights groups by a factor of 5-1

And still lost.

[Orsino]

81. Probably because he's very, very late to this party.

Whatever he contributed to a particular state issue is a drop in the bucket compared to the astroturfing money spent by the gun lobby over decades. Even NRA members, when polled, favor some gun ctrol measures, but the official voice of the NRA opposes them all. That's another way we know it's astroturfing.

Really, trying to make Bloomberg the antidemocratic force on this issue is a ludicrous right-wong talking point...bought with astroturfing.

"What the Klingon says is unimportant, and we do not hear his words."

[beevul]

83. "but the official voice of the NRA opposes them all"

"but the official voice of the NRA opposes them all"

Easily disproven anti-gun dogma:

WASHINGTON (AP) — The House Wednesday passed what could become the first major federal gun control law in over a decade, spurred by the Virginia Tech campus killings and buttressed by National Rifle Association help.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-06-13-house-guns_N.htm

"Really, trying to make Bloomberg the antidemocratic force on this issue is a ludicrous right-wong talking point...bought with astroturfing."

Says you.

I say, the truth hurts.

"There are four lights!"

[Orsino]

87. A snowball from seven years ago disproves global warming?

Wrong again.

[Skittles]

43. THANK YOU

one humper already claimed they cannot be both stupid AND organized - OH YES YOU CAN - the GOP proves that every fucking day

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. Any annoyance caused by your insults is well soothed by the knowledge of your political inefficacy

[LeftOfWest]

66. back at you

friendly_icococlast

reading these forums.

[riversedge]

28. umm.. gives me hope--not for the bullet ban but for other

good causes. If can create a tsunami say --for aca ???

[Skittles]

61. 80,000 is not a tsunami

it would be easy to find 80,000 paranoid gun humpers in one Texas county

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. It is when the supporters of the ban largely did nothing

What did *your* email to the ATF say?
How many others did you get to write in with their comments?

[fxstc]

30. why should it have been banned if it wouldnt make a single person safer?

The constitution is very clear, the right to arms shall not be infringed and the supreme court has rules this means ammo also.
Any real rifle will go through a bullet proof vest so would we want to ban all hunting?
if we infringe the second amendment rights, why would we complain if the rethugs
start infringing on voting rights?

[aikoaiko]

32. It was a dumbass idea to begin with.

Good on the BATFE for backing off.

[underpants]

33. In the early 90's didn't H. W. Bush decry "cop killer" bullets

Or was it just the rap song about it?

[Reter]

56. Yup, and the NRA now hates him

Poppy even renounced his NRA membership.

[Corey_Baker08]

36. Well I Hope The Signature's For The Iran 47 Petition Spur This Kind Of Action...

[VScott]

39. It's not over yet.

There's still more ATF rulings, definitions and federal legislation to be eliminated.

We'll be getting to that also... count on it.

[Skittles]

44. paranoid assholes need their stuff

they will NOT be denied

[Monk06]

50. Next it will be RPG. Nuthin in the Cornstitushun sez we can't have rockets !!!!

[Skittles]

53. don't underestimate what paranoid assholes think they need

if they need a gun to go to a fast food restaurant, they might need more to go to a concert, ya know?

[NaturalHigh]

58. You enjoy your hyperbole, don't you?

[Lurks Often]

60. It's called a Type 10 Destructive Device license

Below is the listed types of Federal Firearm Licenses, see Type 10:
I'm not entirely sure that someone can't legally make or sell a shoulder fired missile launcher. Other things allowed under Federal law are cannons: Anything pre 1898 requires no Federal permit or license, anything after 1898 requires a destructive device permit and flame throwers are not regulated under Federal law at all.

Here's a cannon in private hands:

[guillaumeb]

51. assuming that every one of those 80,000 replies is from a different person,

and we cannot know that, but assuming that it is true, ask yourself what percentage of the population is that?

If we take a population number of 318 million, (https://www.google.com/#q=us+population+2014)

and divide to get a fractional, we arrive at the huge percentage of .025% Two and one half tenths of a percent. One quarter of one percent.
That is correct boys and girls, the veritable "tsumani of 80,000 comments represents at best the view of .025% of the population.

I wonder how many of the respondents are NRA members?


How many BATF employees are mathematicians?

[former9thward]

59. Your math goes the other way also.

The comments represent those most interested in the issue. Apparently those in favor of the ban were not interested enough to comment.

[guillaumeb]

72. or the NRA sent out an action alert

and the members responded. But your comment could also speak to the general lack of interest shown by many voters. Look at the 34% turnout in the 2014 election and how the GOP tries to frame their electoral success as a mandate. Winning 53% of a 34% turnout means the GOP is supported by 18% of the electorate.

[former9thward]

73. Yes, and by that math Democrats are supported by something like 16% of the electorate.

The same is true in presidential elections. Has any president ever received more votes than 50% of the electorate? I doubt it.

[guillaumeb]

74. The real question is "why voter apathy?"

Agreed. Apathy is a problem. Maybe for many there is no real choice between the parties. Personally, and echoing Ralph Nader, many times the choice is between two branches of the same corporate party.

[ileus]

69. Finally some common sense applied to the 2A.

This feel good idea has been shelved for now but we'll have to keep an eye open for the next attempt.

[Kurska]

76. It is amazing to me

That people will criticize the ATF for bowing to overwhelming public commentary against the move, yet I guarantee you these same people didn't bother to actually submit comments on it.

[Sunlei]

82. It's very easy to 'game' the Gov.s public comments section.good media company w/ macro program.

Why is that ammo so cheap?

If it can hole a good police vest, I'd hate to see what it does to building walls, cars and busses.

[hack89]

84. The police vest are designed only to stop pistol bullets

there are five classes of protective vests. Police usually wear level 3. Any rifle bullet, not just these rounds will penetrate a level 3 vest.

[Lurks Often]

85. And yet the gun control groups haven't "gamed" the .gov public comment section,

why is that?

And 98% of ALL rifle rounds invented since 1894 will penetrate the standard Level II, IIA, III & IIIA SOFT body armor worn by police officers

[sir pball]

86. Pistols go right through cars. Rifles penetrate anything but armor plate.

I'm not going to speak to these guys' politics (probably reprehensible), but they do a pretty good job of dispassionately testing various materials against various ammunition, without injecting any politics into the write-ups. It's very enlightening if you aren't familiar with firearms and exactly how powerful they are.

Car doors:

ALL the pistol rounds fired penetrated through the driver’s door into the passenger compartment, with most lodging somewhere in the passenger door.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buick-o-truth-3-pistols-and-car-doors/

Level IIIA body armor, the most protective soft vests available (emphasis added):

This armor isn’t designed to stop rifle fire, but why not try the trusty AR15?
“Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols”. Rifles went right through, just as expected.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-16-level-iiia-armor/