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bananas

(27,509 posts)
Mon Jun 29, 2015, 11:45 PM Jun 2015

U.S., Iran trade accusations of backtracking in nuclear talks

Source: Los Angeles Times

As negotiators battle over the final terms of a nuclear agreement, Iran and six world powers have begun bickering over an important side issue: who gets the blame if the deal falls through.

In recent days, as diplomats have huddled in a porticoed 19th century palace in Vienna, the Austrian capital, Western officials have accused the Iranians of backtracking on commitments they made in a preliminary deal reached April 2 in Lausanne, Switzerland. Officials have pointed to comments by Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who last week appeared to lay down tough new terms that contradicted what U.S. officials say had been agreed to three months ago.

Iranian officials countered, saying U.S. officials also have been backtracking, but they seem increasingly worried that if the talks break down this week, the international community will hold their side primarily responsible.

<snip>

If Iran is held responsible for a breakdown of the 2-year-old talks, many countries would be far more willing to continue — or even intensify — economic sanctions that have badly battered Iran’s economy. Iran has been hoping that the United States would get blamed for intransigence and the world community would drop sanctions and start doing business again with the long-isolated Islamic Republic.

<snip>


Read more: http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-iran-talks-20150629-story.html



The finger-pointing has begun.
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cstanleytech

(26,298 posts)
1. This doesnt make sense.
Mon Jun 29, 2015, 11:53 PM
Jun 2015

As long as Iran is open and doesnt try and stonewall or stop the international inspectors from their actual job of well...............inspecting, then Iran is in the free and clear.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
2. Saudi Arabia says it won't rule out building nuclear weapons
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 12:19 AM
Jun 2015

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-says-it-wont-rule-out-building-nuclear-weapons-10139229.html

"Saudi Arabia will not rule out building or acquiring nuclear weapons, the country’s ambassador to the United States has indicated.

Asked whether Saudi Arabia would ever build nuclear weapons in an interview with US news channel CNN, Adel Al-Jubeir said the subject was “not something we would discuss publicly”.

Pressed later on the issue he said: “This is not something that I can comment on, nor would I comment on.”

The ambassador’s reticence to rule out a military nuclear programme may reignite concerns that the autocratic monarchy has its eye on a nuclear arsenal.

Western intelligence agencies believe that the Saudi monarchy paid for up to 60% of Pakistan’s nuclear programme in return for the ability to buy warheads for itself at short notice, the Guardian newspaper reported in 2010."

But that's OK, since Saudi Arabia isn't Iran.

cstanleytech

(26,298 posts)
4. Well the Saudis didnt try to get nukes after Israel got them because
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 12:48 AM
Jun 2015

they dont fear Israel, their fear is Iran which (assuming the intel is right) could be why the Saudis wont rule nukes out as long there is a perceived threat in their opinion of Iran getting them.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
5. You do realize that the Saudi despots aren't, like, "the good guys" on planet Earth?
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:11 AM
Jun 2015

If the US wanted to spend a couple years working up a case of hate against the Saudi regime, as forerunner to one of their now regular "regime change" operations, they wouldn't have much of a problem. Certainly no more of a problem than they have against all the other hated enemies.

Right now the PNAC list of prime targets has been whittled down to Syria, Lebanon (??), Iran, and most certainly Iran has seen the progression and knows that it's next in line. God only knows how the USA expects to control the product of their ME war, where they're aligned with extremist despots in Saudi Arabia (wahhabi - ISIS - al queda). The question baffles the best of minds.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
7. well... you gave "fear" as some kind of ... I dunno. Rationale.
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 02:06 AM
Jun 2015

I was responding to that. Not putting the antithetical words in your mouth, but rather, the opposite. Saying "you do realize...", taking it for granted that anyone with common sense does "realize".

cstanleytech

(26,298 posts)
8. Its been stated in the news a number of times over the years
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 04:24 AM
Jun 2015

in varies articles that they fear Iran becoming a potential nuclear power.
Is it an irrational fear? I dont know, based upon their government though being largely a theocracy i am hesitant to trust them myself but again the claim could be said about our government largely being a theocracy when you look at how many of our elected officials and judges try to force their version of god into our lives.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
10. I think the real reason
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 04:44 AM
Jun 2015

is because of the National Iranian Oil Company and to combat the sanctions have began an providing the domestic energy needs with renewable resources and that is the big reason why they want it so bad and the US opposes it (with the upping of the sanctions). I'm sure peace talks have to do with multinational or something, probably. I imagine if talks fell through because they wouldn't give them enough oil contracts or something like that. I just wish they would leave them alone particularly when their largely nationalized economy gives back to the people.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
9. What about Iran's fears?
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 04:32 AM
Jun 2015

but I think the threat is the other way around -- not necessarily Iran but the Shia populations though if they did launch an attack I think the US should help out taking the Saudi out of Saudi Arabia but I thought or I read anyway that they had a deal with Pakistan for them to deliver a nuke on-demand which gave them all the benefits of having a nuke and also the benefit to say they don't have any nukes on their soil.

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
12. We helped Iraq invade them
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 09:05 AM
Jun 2015

We have supported Israel's Mossad with intel and data against it.
We threatened Iraq not to cooperate with them, when they (Iraq and Iran) faced a well defined, mutual enemy.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
15. I'm missing why you're telling me?
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 09:56 AM
Jun 2015

I imagine you're saying we should continue pressuring them? Still, I think the US would have less of a enemy if they left them alone and don't use double-standards on they're Israel policy.

madville

(7,412 posts)
3. Did anyone actually believe a deal would be completed
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 12:44 AM
Jun 2015

Many of us called BS when this "framework" was announced in April and were chided for saying the celebration was premature.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
14. So, now before things actually completely fail, you are claiming victory for failure?
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 09:14 AM
Jun 2015

How special. Do you have any viable alternatives? What do you purpose policy should be if there is no interim agreement or negotiations going forward? What is your better alternative to a deal being reached?

As to celebration, all that happened was that many of us were happy that they could create a framework - with all the brackets that frameworks have - and thanks especially to our wonderful Energy secretary were FAR more detailed than anyone expected. At that time, Obama, Kerry, and Moniz all spoke of lot more work needed - and that is what they and their team are doing now. None of those people EVER thought this would be easy. Even after the interim agreement, Obama publicly put the chance of a deal as less than 50%. However, THIS is what is meant by using diplomacy first and going to war only as a last resort.

So, if it fails, pat yourself on the back for being right. Then in a year or two, you can be a courageous anonymous poster demanding that we not attack Iran. Further, if that happens, pat yourself on the back for being right that doing that would be a disaster.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
11. This is not that different than the stories before the interim agreement and the framework agreement
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 09:00 AM
Jun 2015

It is hard to know how much is really for domestic consumption -- more on their side than ours. It is not insignificant on our side. The reality is that this is the first really big step away from PNAC -- and the Republican and Democratic believers in PNAC are out in force. This is not surprising. What IS surprising to me is the number of people here hoping it fails - either to prove themselves right or for ideological reasons I don't understand.

The fact is that the 6 nations have worked extremely hard to get to this point. Those who argue that another choice is a "better deal" as defined by people like Netanyahu ignore the reality that Iran would be agreeing to a lot if they agree to a fleshed out version of the framework. It is stunning that people who agreed with Netanyahu's strange bomb poster which he used at the UN to claim Iran was months from a bomb -- are saying the agreement is no good because it only controls Iran's ability to build a bomb for 10 years. (Netanyahu went so far as to say of the framework, that even if a deal like that was reached and Iran complied (which surprisingly he said was in their interests), it would be a bad deal. One thing that does is to suggest how extreme a deal would have to be to be considered a "good deal" by Netanyahu.

One thing you might consider is that people are now writing more prominently about what happens if we fail to get a deal. They point out that the interim deal, which did freeze Iran's programs, would not be in effect. This means that there will be calls to ratchet up sanctions - causing more pain. Note that in the years with even the heaviest sanctions, Iran increased its capacity. It is hard to imagine that especially if sanctions are raised they won't do so again. Anyone want a repeat of 2002/2003 with a drum beat to attack a bigger, more homogeneous country than Iraq? Not to mention, doing that while we simultaneously fight the radical Sunnis we have courtesy of the Iraq wars.

This is a multinational effort, but there is some real truth to the idea that this administration, because of who they are and their counterparts in Iran have created an unusual opportunity for settling this diplomatically. Obama/Rouhani are both willing to try (Khatami was open to it in the early 2000s, but Bush wasn't), Kerry/Zarif who are both extremely capable diplomats willing to risk failure, and Moniz and his Iranian counterpart who got his PHD at MIT where Moniz taught. (In Kerry and Moniz, who are long term friends, we have a great team.) Not to diminish the extensive work by the EU and the other countries, these people being involved are why Europeans have said that we made more progress last year than in the 10 years before hand.

Even so, consider than when asked by the media - Kerry said he was "hopeful", rather than assuring them it was in the bag or that it was very likely. He also spoke of a lot of hard work and hard decisions that must be made.

I prefer to back Obama and Kerry - and all the nations on our side. What is gained by almost cheering on things failing? Do you boo your team if well into the came it is tied or they are down one - or do you support them and wish them well in winning?

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
16. The worst-case scenario of war is the best-case outcome for the neocons.
Tue Jun 30, 2015, 12:40 PM
Jun 2015

If these talks fail, that outcome is squarely on Bibi and his allies.

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