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FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 01:55 PM Jul 2015

Russia tries to soothe Baltic states over independence review

Source: Yahoo News

MOSCOW/VILNIUS (Reuters) - Russia sought on Wednesday to ease concern in Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia over plans to review the legality of a 1991 decision formally granting them independence from the Soviet Union.

The Baltic states declared independence in 1990 and 1991, and activists in Lithuania and Latvia were killed in attempts by Soviet forces to quell rebellion. The events have been a matter of particular sensitivity in the three countries since Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine, another former Soviet republic.

The Russian prosecutor-general's office said on Tuesday it would review the decision by the Soviet Union's State Council, the highest organ of state power, in the last months of the Soviet empire, to recognize the break.

But the Kremlin distanced itself from the move and the prosecutor-general's office presented it as just a formality after a review was requested by two members of the United Russia party which is loyal to President Vladimir Putin.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/russia-angers-baltic-states-review-independence-120222285.html



Be worried Baltic states, Putin wants his old USSR territories back and you are next in sight.

12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Russia tries to soothe Baltic states over independence review (Original Post) FLPanhandle Jul 2015 OP
. geek tragedy Jul 2015 #1
Far more likely that there's a clause about not joining NATO Demeter Jul 2015 #2
But the USSR doesn't exist any more and Russia's right to enforce 1monster Jul 2015 #5
Too fucking bad, that's not Russia's call to make. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #7
nicely summarized. MBS Jul 2015 #11
Putin really wants to start World War III considering all three are a part of NATO. {nt} Yukari Yakumo Jul 2015 #3
Russia reviews sale of Alaska to U.S. LastLiberal in PalmSprings Jul 2015 #4
What makes Russia think it has any right to "review" the issue of Baltic freedom? LiberalEsto Jul 2015 #6
My Latvian grandparents fled West after the war to escape the occupation. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #8
My Estonian parents fled too LiberalEsto Jul 2015 #10
FLPanhandle Diclotican Jul 2015 #9
This is in response to US tanks in Russian Speaking areas of Latvia and Estonia. happyslug Jul 2015 #12
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
2. Far more likely that there's a clause about not joining NATO
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:15 PM
Jul 2015

or hosting NATO bases or arms that Russia seeks to enforce.

1monster

(11,012 posts)
5. But the USSR doesn't exist any more and Russia's right to enforce
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:25 PM
Jul 2015

any terms of the USSR's rulings would be legally tenuous. Not that Putin would allow such a little thing like that to stand in the way of something he wants.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
7. Too fucking bad, that's not Russia's call to make.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:57 PM
Jul 2015

The Soviet occupation of the Baltics was never legal at any point anyway. Putin needs to fuck off.

4. Russia reviews sale of Alaska to U.S.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 03:20 PM
Jul 2015
Russian Duma Deputy Wants California and Alaska Back

Staunton, September 26, 2014 – Mikhail Degtyarev, a LDPR Duma deputy, has asked the Russian foreign ministry to clarify the status of land that had belonged to Russia in what is now the US state of California because he believes that Washington did not pay for it as required by a nineteenth century bilateral agreement.

As a result, Degtaryev is quoted by “Izvestiya” today as saying, “Russia as before has the basis to consider the territory of Fort Ross its own” and to seek either compensation via international courts or the return of that land to Russian control. In that event, he says, Moscow should install Russian missiles there (izvestia.ru/news/577183).

The LDPR deputy said that after Moscow examined the details of the 1841 sale of Fort Ross to the United States, it would need to focus on the issue of Russia’s subsequent sale of Alaska to the US in order to find out whether the Americans lived up to that bargain as well. If not, then he said, Russia should seek compensation or the return of its property.

more
 

LiberalEsto

(22,845 posts)
6. What makes Russia think it has any right to "review" the issue of Baltic freedom?
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:47 PM
Jul 2015

The Estonians spent 700 years as slaves of German "nobles" who settled there and took over every inch of land, with the connivance of the Catholic Church. The country (or parts of it) was nominally ruled at various times by the Danes, Germans, Swedes and Russians, but Estonia didn't completely get rid of the German barons and their kin until Hitler ordered them to return to Germany in 1939. And then Hitler and Stalin added a secret clause to their Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact before World War 2, in which Germany granted Russia sovereignty over the three Baltic nations, as if it had any right to do so, the scum.

My Estonian great-great grandparents were serfs/slaves of these Germans. They could be bought, sold, traded and separated from their families. They could be beaten by their masters. They did not have last names; those were only granted to them in the 1820s. Even then, the Germans apparently delighted in giving some of the peasants family names like (translated from Estonian) Poison, Lazy, Stupid, Flea, Mudraker, Puddle, Pig, Sheep, and the like. I have seen these names in old Lutheran parish records. The serfs owned no property, including farm implements. The peasants living in the province of Livonia (southern Estonia and northern Latvia) could not travel of their own volition until 1863.

It was not until 1866 that, under pressure from the Russian czar, the people of Livonia were freed from the jurisdiction of the Baltic German landowners, and could no longer be flogged by them. This happened after years of unrest and uprisings that were brutally put down. But Estonia and Livonia were still part of Russia.

They fought for their freedom against the Russian Bolsheviks, against the German Landeswehr, and again against Soviet Russia before winning independence in 1920. At that time the Soviet Union granted full recognition of the Estonian Republic.

Estonia only had 20 years of independence before it was invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union in June, 1940. In 1941 the invading German Army drove the Russians out and took over the country. And in 1944 the Soviet Red Army drove out the Nazis and settled in for the next 50 years.

Wouldn't it be nice if Estonia and its Baltic neighbors got to keep their independence this time around? Estonia is the same size as Denmark. Its people, and the people of Latvia and Lithuania, deserve freedom as much as anyone else.

Fuck Russia and fuck Putin.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
8. My Latvian grandparents fled West after the war to escape the occupation.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 06:02 PM
Jul 2015

Grandpa had fought the invasion with the other resistors, so staying would have probably been a death sentence for him.

Fortunately, they both lived to see an end of the occupation, and their ashes have been returned home for scattering.

 

LiberalEsto

(22,845 posts)
10. My Estonian parents fled too
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 08:35 PM
Jul 2015

but didn't live long enough to see their homeland free again. My father did go there in the early 1980s, but had to stay in the only hotel in the capital city where Americans were permitted. Relatives were able to visit him at the hotel. Couldn't visit his home town or anything.

BTW my father was born in Latvia. His father was a surgeon for the railroad linking Valga and Riga, and they traveled back and forth as needed.

Diclotican

(5,095 posts)
9. FLPanhandle
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 06:37 PM
Jul 2015

FLPanhandle

First of all - that train have allready been leaving the train station a long, long time ago - more to the point - when the baltic states deiced they wanted out of the Soviet Union - and the USSR was granting them independence in 1991.... And the Prosecutors General offices doubtfully have any legality about what happened more than 25 years ago...

Second - I doubt, after more than 25 years of independence - and membership in both the EU and NATO either of the baltic countries will be any near depended of Russia - as they have no love for the Russian Federation at all - and specially not Putin - who many in the baltic countries look upon as the devil himself...

3th - I doubt the Baltic States will go back to the Russian Federation - even if the Prosecutor Generals Office was to find that the independence of the baltic States was illegal -and that the baltic states would have to go back to Russia - or to start the system all over again.. I doubt somehow also - the international community at large will accept that Russia could play hardball with the Baltic States the same way Putin want to do it..

If he was not directly trying to make the case for that the baltic states was made Independence illegal - as the Prosecute Generals office have making the case for - at least Putin could use the fact that many russians are large minorities in the baltic states - and often marginalized, mostly because of old hurt feelings - 25-30 years ago - the minority was the bosses of the country - now they are just subjects - and often marginalized subjects - because of language barriers - and culturally barriers - it exist many russians who live in the baltic states who have never spoken a word in estonian, in Latvian, and Lithuanian - mostly because they have never had any interest in learning the language - also because it is rather difficult to learn and that barrier have made it almost impossible for russians to integrate into the rest of the countries as ordinary subjects of the State... But it have been a long-standing fear by many in the baltic states - that Russia could be using the large minorities in the baltic states - as a form of 5 colonies - who Russia could use - either to give concessions to Russia in form of "border corrections" or outright - that Russia would use the minorities as a reason for outright occupy the states - That was the fear in the mid 1990s - and one of the reasons the baltic states first was one of the founding members of Partnership for peace - and when they had the ability - made members of NATO together with other states who had been part of partnership for peace...


Diclotican

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
12. This is in response to US tanks in Russian Speaking areas of Latvia and Estonia.
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 03:33 PM
Jul 2015

Now, while most of Rural Latvia and Estonia are populated by Latvians and Estonians, the area around the actual border is not. In the days of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Leadership preferred Russians in those areas and this those areas are populated by Russians. While into the 1950s the Soviet Union was fighting resistance groups in both countries and wanted to contain the rural areas where most of the resistance was fighting.

Thus these fringe rural areas tend to be Russian Speaking, but most Russian Speakers live in the cities of all three Countries.

Lithuania has the smallest Russian Speaking population, for it bordered Poland not Russia (and remains Catholic like Poland unlike Latvia and Estonia which are Lutheran). Thus Russia has had little problems with Lithuania (In 1989 Russian speakers in Lithuania was only 9.4% of the population).

On the other hand Latvia (in 1998 had just under 50% Russian Speakers) and Estonia (in 1989 had about 33% Russian Speakers) have been a problem for Russia, for both countries retain a large Russian Speaking Minority.

Today, 4.9% of people living in Lithuania speak Russia
27% of people living in Latvia are native Russian Speakers
24% of people living in Estonia are native Russian Speakers

Concentrations of Russia speakers tend to be in certain cities"

Lithuanian Russians live mainly in cities. In the Lithuanian capital Vilnius, they make up 14.43% of the population, in Lithuania's third largest city Klaipėda no more than 19%. Other Lithuanian cities, including the second-largest city Kaunas, have lower percentages of Russians, while in most small towns and villages there are very few Russians (with the exception of Visaginas town). In all, 4.9% of Lithuania's population are ethnic Russians.

Russians make up almost a half of the population of Latvia's capital, Riga. In the second largest city Daugavpils, where already before World War I Russians were the second biggest ethnic group after Jews,[8] Russians now make up the majority. Today about 27.6% of Latvia's population are ethnic Russians.

In Estonia, Russians are concentrated in urban areas, particularly in Tallinn and the north-eastern county of Ida-Virumaa. As of 2011, 38.5% of Tallinn's population were ethnic Russians and an even higher number – 46.7% spoke Russian as their mother tongue.[9] In 2011, large proportions of ethnic Russians were found in Narva (82.02%),[10] Sillamäe (about 82%)[11] and Kohtla-Järve (69.68%). In the second largest city of Estonia – Tartu – ethnic Russians constitute only about 16% of the population.[12] In rural areas the proportion of ethnic Russians is very low (13 of Estonia's 15 counties are over 80% ethnic Estonian). Overall, ethnic Russians make up 24% of Estonia's population (the proportion of Russophones is, however, somewhat higher, because Russian is the mother tongue of many ethnic Ukrainians, Belarusians and Jews who live in the country).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_the_Baltic_states


About 18% of the population of Latvia are "Non-Citizens" of Latvia, these are people who moved to Latvia in Soviet days or their descendants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizens_(Latvia)#Politics_of_citizenship

To be a Citizen of Estonia you have to have a working knowledge of Estonia, born to an Estonian (or fathered by an Estonian) or married to a citizen. Notice, if you speak Russian and married someone who speaks Ukrainian, but neither of you can trace your family back to pre 1939 Estonia, you are a "Non-citizen" of Estonia even if your family has lived in Estonia since 1940.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_nationality_law#By_naturalisation

Thus you have a large population in Estonia and Latvia that can NOT be citizens of those countries, no matter how long they AND their family have lived in both countries.

This is complicated by the Citizenship law of the Russian Federation, which grants automatic citizenship to any former resident of the Soviet Union upon request (i.e. just ask and if you had been a citizen of the Soviet Union you become a Citizen of the Russian Federation).

Now, the Russian rule is defined in two statutes, one passed in 1999 and the other in 2002. The first has not court case but is the law in question for it gives citizenship to any former Soviet Citizen AND their decedents. In 2002 this was NOT repealed but appears to have been assumed when the present law was adopted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_Russia#Citizenship_act_of_2002

Latvia and Estonia have a problem, they want to get rid of their Russian Speaking Minority but how to do that without being accused of Ethnic Cleansing? Thus these "Non-Citizens" are denied the right to vote but are otherwise left along, at least according to Western news account (Russian News Account states otherwise). These Russian speaking minorities are to large to ignore AND to large to be permitted to vote. Thus the laws discriminating against them and the Russian Federation complaints about how Russian Speakers are being treated in those two countries.
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