Debt Crisis: Greeks Say Bailout Austerity Will Cause a 'Revolution'

[IDemo]

Source: NBC

ATHENS — Greece faced a day of political turmoil and public protests Wednesday as its parliament voted on whether to accept a $94 billion bailout that would bring painful austerity measures.

Workers' strikes and several rallies were planned in Athens, with Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras facing an open revolt in his left-wing party over the tax rises and pension cuts demanded under the European deal.

The crisis deepened late Tuesday when an International Monetary Fund study showed that Greece needs far more debt relief than European governments had offered, and that the loan package agreed by leaders on Monday was unsustainable.

It leaves ordinary Greeks wondering if decades of economic anguish are a price worth paying for remaining in the euro currency zone.

Read more: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/debt-crisis-greeks-say-bailout-austerity-will-cause-revolution-n392336

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. Get the money first.

Then, after the revolution, refuse to acknowledge the debt

[Amishman]

6. not a good idea

Given that two cornerstones of Greece's economy are tourism and shipping, they are extremely sensitive to sanctions or penalties from other countries.

[The Stranger]

24. Tourists would inundate Greece, if it were to decide to go its own way.

It would be THE destination for unbeatable beaches and classical history.

[BillZBubb]

26. Yes! Plus it would be really inexpensive.

A Euro or Dollar would convert to a lot of Drachmas.

[Sunlei]

56. Tourists already inundate Greece. Tourism revenue stream should never be turned over to creditors.

The Greek people will never get their main source of their countries revenue back. Tourism spending.
For profit private interests, 'middlemen' will change Greece forever.

[RR2]

2. Theres the standard corporate answer to everything, make more cuts!

Why bother spreading some of the wealth when we can force even more austerity on the peasant's! Well maybe this will be a signal to the 1% ruling elite, the world can not and will not take their abuse anymore.

Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 09:15 AM PDT.

"The pitchforks ARE coming" - A billionaire warns his fellow Oligarchs what is coming down the pipe.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/27/1309994/--The-pitchforks-ARE-coming-A-billionaire-warns-his-fellow-Oligarchs-what-is-coming-down-the-pipe

[Tea Potty]

13. Well...

If u don't like catfood, maybe you should just try eating ur bootstraps instead of complaining ;p

[MisterP]

20. *peas*: it's peas we have to eat

[Kennah]

42. Whirled?

[RR2]

23. +1000

[bemildred]

3. I expect the EU will have a big fight now about who gets to hold the bag. nt

[fasttense]

4. More debt to pay off debt with a heaping of useless austerity

The austerity only makes their economy worse and even if it didn't, it doesn't pay off the mounding debt. Greece is on the path to total fiscal destruction if they keep taking it from the EU bankers. They need to learn how to fight an economic war. Germany is crushing them yet again.

[magical thyme]

5. the real fight is over who will take responsibility for the Grexit; the Troika or Greece

Varoufakis was right: the Troika has been trying to force the Grexit, but they want it to be Greece choosing to leave rather than them forcing them out.

They keep upping the ante to push the Greek people to choose to leave the Eurozone. That is why the Troika chose to interpret Oxi as a vote to leave the Eurozone as opposed to a vote to end the failed "austerity" program.

I guess that way they will feel they've ended any responsibility to assist Greece's transition. In the meantime, they are showing the rest of the PIIGS what will happen if they resist the failed "austerity" program.

Either that, or the 1%ers are looking to pick up some lovely Greek islands at bargain basement prices.

[GoneFishin]

7. I think you are right about both. They are making an example out of Greece as warning not

to resist austerity. I also do think that another goal is to beat down the value of national assets so billionaires can buy them for pennies.

[ananda]

12. That is it exactly.

And it's just so ugly and inhuman.

[raouldukelives]

14. Of course they are. All about the easy money.

That is all each and every individual shareholder cares about, and with the steady investments they make in corporations allowing them to recruit the brightest minds the world can produce and twist them to committing and denying self-determination to billions the world over, to coming up with new clever ways of graft, deceit and obfuscation of the damage they do to every inch of our natural world, it is no wonder they are so successful at it.

The best labor, hard, day in and day out for them, and all they care about, like the people who employ them, is making more money so they can commit more to the continued destruction for dollars.

Behind the continued horror, entrapment and subjugation of the least of our world, are the smiling visages of Wall St legions.

[GliderGuider]

10. That's how I see it. nt

[cstanleytech]

25. "end the failed "austerity" program." I was under the impression Greece

failed to implement the austerity program but you are saying they did implement, so confused now.

[BillZBubb]

27. They did implement it--except it wasn't enough for the Germans.

The Greek unemployment rate is a Great Depression levels.

Austerity FAILED. Now the Germans want more austerity.

[cstanleytech]

34. So they implemented the entire plan?

[magical thyme]

29. they did implement it, with each loan

Pensions have already been cut by 44%. Also don't believe the "they all retire at 50" crap. Retirement at 55 (not 50) requires 40 years minimum of employment -- in other words for people who started working at age 15 -- and is limited to specific, hazardous occupations. Same as we offer to police and firefighters. They've dramatically cut the occupations that fall on the list, so people regularly exposed to toxic chemicals for example, are no longer on the list. But that's not enough for the Troika.

Furthermore, the loans are only going to pay back loans. 90% of the loan money goes to the lenders, not to Greece. The Troika has been bailing out the German banks and sticking the Greek people with the tab.

No matter what they have done, it's never enough and never will be because it crushed their economy.

[daleo]

48. Good info about the pension question

I always assumed that there was a log of propaganda at play, and this explains it.

[FlatBaroque]

8. Varafoukis was correct in his accusations

What Germany was unable to do militarily, it will do economically, again, unless it is stopped.

[GliderGuider]

15. All of yesterday's objections to that perception have foundered on the rocks of the IMF report nt

[magical thyme]

30. and then there is this: Greece and the Union of Bullies

The FT reports how, having reached an impasse in their negotiation, around 6 a.m., Merkel and Tsipras went to leave the room and President of the European Council Donald Tusk physically prevented them, saying “there is no way you are leaving this room”.

Alone, sleepless, with other leaders reportedly taking turns on him in a process which one EU official described as “extensive mental waterboarding”, looking like “a beaten dog”, Tsipras finally succumbed.

In any ordinary circumstances, in most legal jurisdictions, such an agreement would be considered void; obtained by coercion and under duress. In Euroland, it seems, such considerations do not apply.

As Fintan O’Toole wrote in the Irish Times, there was another, unspoken condition: “that Germany would restrain itself, accepting, in return for the immense gift of a new beginning that its fellow European countries had given it, that it must refrain from ever trying to be top dog again.” Many believe that this, too, has been totally trashed. How will this play out, I wonder, in the context of the upcoming in-out UK referendum? Badly, I would venture.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Greece-and-the-Union-of-Bullies-20150714-0017.html

[HooptieWagon]

37. So, by humiliating and extorting Greece...

Germany is going to drive them right into the arms of Russia. NATO loses a member. Probably not too smart of Germany.

[magical thyme]

39. I think the US will get involved before that happens

Germany has improving relations with Russia. We're the ones who hate Russia and need NATO.

[hill2016]

49. great

so Tsipras should just tear up the agreement.

Roll back all the changes passed through legislature this week.

What's stopping him?

[magical thyme]

57. On the one hand, who knows what threats were made. Does he have family?

On the other hand, until the Greek people realize they're better off leaving the Euro altogether, the Greek people are. The older Greek people are afraid of losing what little they have left. The younger people have nothing to lose.

And then it will take time to cobble together an interim banking system to rebuild. They should have been planning for this eventuality all along, but hindsight is 20/20 and if they had been planning for it and word got out, then the Troika would have held this against them and claimed they weren't negotiating in good faith.

If/when they do leave, they can declare it the "odious debt" that it clearly is, and tell the Troika to go pound sand.

[dembotoz]

9. Stuff like this creates angry nationalistic movements.

Not a very good idea with an economic union that stressed kombyyah

[Democat]

11. Either way, there will be angry nationalists

There are plenty of people in other EU countries that don't want their taxes supporting the Greek bailout.

[BillZBubb]

28. Then those dumb asses should be changing THEIR governments.

They are the ones that loaned Greece their taxpayers' money TO PAY OFF PRIVATE BANKS.

[FlatBaroque]

16. Others have compared this to the treaty that

led ot the humiliation of Germany after WWI

[HooptieWagon]

35. Good thought. That's a reasonable comparison.

There is no amount of austerity or loans that will permit Greece to recover, and they can't devalue the Euro to recover like they could the Drachma.

[magical thyme]

36. the Treaty of Versailles

Of the many provisions in the treaty, one of the most important and controversial required "Germany [to] accept the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage" during the war (the other members of the Central Powers signed treaties containing similar articles). This article, Article 231, later became known as the War Guilt clause. The treaty forced Germany to disarm, make substantial territorial concessions, and pay reparations to certain countries that had formed the Entente powers. In 1921 the total cost of these reparations was assessed at 132 billion Marks (then $31.4 billion or £6.6 billion, roughly equivalent to US $442 billion or UK £284 billion in 2015). At the time economists, notably John Maynard Keynes, predicted that the treaty was too harsh — a "Carthaginian peace", and said the reparations figure was excessive and counter-productive, views that, since then, have been the subject of ongoing debate by historians and economists from several countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

[Nye Bevan]

45. I'm not sure we need to worry about the mighty Greek war machine avenging its humiliation

by conquering all of Europe.

[FlatBaroque]

46. Perhaps not. But the same sentiment within

the country's borders has been known to cause disharmony when the authoritarian firgures decide on a scapegoat within their borders.

[Yupster]

47. Numbers mean little

This is Sparta !!!

[Igel]

17. The IMF report is meaningless.

The plan, such as it was, was open ended. It basically said, "Do this, and we'll apply a short-term fix. We have an inkling of a medium term approach. We have no long term approach."

The IMF report deals with the long term. There is no long-term approach, so to say that the plan can't work is pretty pointless. It works as well as it worked Monday morning.

The IMF report is making everybody say, "Unless we have a long-term approach there's no possible short-term fix." It's utterly false, but it keeps the story, interest, and outrage alive. What's keeping the banks closed is a lack of "immediate term" liquidity; what's required is a vote today, not in 5 or 10 years. Tax reform is for this year, not 2025.

What nobody's shown for the news story is whether or not a long-term plan would affect the short-term actions. It's not important for the news story, but should be. It's unlikely that given both debts were unsustainable any short-term course of action would be different. The Guardian, some Greeks, many DUers, and an assortment of others dislike that course of action so it doesn't matter if the long-term unsustainability would result in anything different. It's claimed it would, and we luvs us unsubstantiated claims if it means we're right.

What people mostly want is absolution: Yes, you've taken 300 billion euros, now run along to the prom, and when you need a couple hundred more, no prob. It's okay that you misrepresented yourself and lied. You're Greeks, we can't really expect you to honor your word or actually have an efficient government. It's the North man's burden, apparently.

[candelista]

18. The IMF says Greece should have a 30 year moratorium on payments.

That way they can get their economy moving so that they can actually make the payments.

That's a good idea. The clock should start now.

[GliderGuider]

19. What short-term fix? Paying off the banksters and forcing more hardship and death on Greeks?

What an utterly heartless proposal.

Debt relief and a 30-year repayment moratorium sounds like a much better short-term idea to me. The Greeks would still suffer plenty, if that's your real desire.

[magical thyme]

31. the IMF will not participate in the bailout *unless* it includes serious debt relief, period.

"...the IMF has made it clear that it does not wish to participate in any further Greek bailout, unless Germany and the rest drop their vehement opposition to big write-offs of Greek debt"

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33531845

[hill2016]

50. first thing

the IMF can do is to write off its own loans to Greece.

The US will of course take a hit as it contributes 20% of the IMF's funds.

But nothing like putting your money where your mouth is.

[Yo_Mama]

40. IMF is saying it doesn't want advance more loans under these conditions

It's not like IMF is willing to pay off Greece's debt.

Fine to criticize the EU, but they are the only ones coming up with cash!!

IMF wants the EU to write off more loans. IMF and ECB both won't write down loans.

In the "framework" from last weekend, one of the items is that after Greece gets through one successful review from the Troika it is supposed to go back to the IMF, which is now notifying the EU "no dice".

[Nihil]

44. Correct - the IMF is speaking *for itself* (as always)

> It's not like IMF is willing to pay off Greece's debt.
> IMF wants the EU to write off more loans. IMF and ECB both won't write down loans.

"I'm not going to pay; try asking Olaf or Hans instead."

[hill2016]

51. why doesn't the IMF

write off its own loans to Greece?

[Nihil]

53. Same reason that the ECB don't want to ...

... and the same reason that the other European banks don't want to
and the same reason that the Greeks don't pay their bills in the first
place: SELFISH GREED.

A degree of selfLESSness & responsibility from all parties could have
sorted this out years ago but everyone was "I'm all right Jack, keep
your hands offa my stack" ...

[Nihil]

43. Thank you for an excellent post!

The IMF is purely looking (*) at the long term - as in multiple decades of
steady state behaviour - not what has happened in recent decades or
what is actually happening now.


(*) = "guessing" or "wishing" would be closer

[PoliticAverse]

21. Good, maybe the general population there will finally wake up to reality. n/t

[magical thyme]

33. if by "wake up" you mean go violent, I'm afraid it's started in Athens.

http://cdn.theguardian.tv/mainwebsite/2015/07/15/150715athensprotest_desk.mp4

[snooper2]

59. Well, they have gone about as far left as possible, I guess now the circle is almost complete

Next they'll have some libertarians in power...

Oh wait, the far left there ALREADY joined with the far right fucking nuts last year-

Maybe we can send Hillary and Bernie over to straighten things out. Then O'Malley will have a wide open track to win!

[AnnieBW]

22. I just got back from Greece

Last week, during the vote, but before the PM caved in to Mutti Merkel and the banksters. The people are pissed. The tourists can take out as much money as they want from the ATMs, but the Greeks can only take out 60 euros a day. Everyone wants you to pay cash. I feel so bad for the ordinary people there. All they want to do is to live their lives. Our guide was pretty vocal about this - she tried not to inject politics into it, but she realized that we were all American lefties in our Pagan tour group, and she let her hatred for the German government slip. I was also struck by how many of the factories had German names on them. Hmmm...

If I could offer people any advice, it's that if you ever want to go there, go! It's a beautiful country, the people are wonderful, the food is great, and they need the foreign cash in their markets. Piss off a banker - go to Greece!

[magical thyme]

32. see my post 30

it was coercion, plain and simple.

[villager]

52. Wait...a Pagan tour group?

That sounds interesting.... Checking out the Dionysian sites?

[AnnieBW]

60. Checked out Delphi, Olympia, Mycenae, Eleusis, and Athens

It was a group of 15 of us. Delphi and Eleusis were AMAZING! The Acropolis was a steep climb, but totally worth it. I cried when I saw Athena's olive tree by the Erectheon.

[villager]

61. Athena's Olive Tree!

That does sound kind of amazing.

Was this self-organized among a group of Pagans, or is it "officially" arranged?

[AnnieBW]

62. Organized by a group of folks in the DC area

But we had a people from California and Connecticut. One of the local folks is a part-time travel agent, so she did all of the bookings and such. There were about 15 of us.

[Adrahil]

38. There is no magical solution to this.

No matter what, the Greekd will suffer. There were monumental fuck ups on all sides and now ANY solution means pain.

[potone]

41. Tsipras admitted that they didn't have the resources to convert to the drachma.

I think that "Grexit" may still come down the road, when they have time to plan for it. As long as their banks stay closed it is hard to see what else they could do.

[Sunlei]

54. I think Greeks should open their own public banks, keep those others closed..use the ATM

daily limit to pull out all cash and tell the creditors/ 'world bank' to go pound sand.

real wealthy people with large bank accounts can go to the many other close countries and use their bank cards to get out large chunks of their money.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

55. The stupidity of refusing to admit the austerity theory was debunked.

http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/university-grad-student-debunks-major-austerity-theory-by-exposing-flawed-stats/17941-university-grad-student-debunks-major-austerity-theory-by-exposing-flawed-stats

[SoCalNative]

58. Maybe if all of them actually paid their taxes

they wouldn't need bailouts or have to face "austerity."