Several George Zimmerman witnesses change their accounts

[hue]

Source: Chicago Tribune

Evidence released last week in the second-degree-murder case against George Zimmerman shows four key witnesses made major changes in what they say they saw and heard the night he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman. A fourth abandoned her initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single figure running.

They were reinterviewed in mid-March, after Sanford police handed the case off to State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. The case changed hands again when Gov. Rick Scott passed it on to a special prosecutor. Zimmerman was arrested April 11 on a charge of second-degree murder.

Here are the key ways in which their stories changed.

Read more: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522,0,3635603.story?track=rss

[lunatica]

1. The police really fucked up on this one

The evidence could end up being so blurred that the jury will never agree on anything.

[Recursion]

2. I'd have trouble convicting on evidence this screwed up

Due process is the worst system, except for everything else we've tried...

[KamaAina]

3. Fucked up?

Or monkeywrenched it?

[naaman fletcher]

23. the police didn't fuck up at all

They went to the scene. They took pictures. They talked to witnesses, and they told the DA he should be charged with manslaughter.

The DA fucked up. Then it turned into a political mess and everyone is changing their stories, and the DA has gone and overcharged, which gurantees the acquittal.

[lunatica]

44. So why did witnesses get questioned weeks later instead of right away?

Are you seriously saying that the police did everything they could to secure the area and interview witnesses and take photos at the scene of the death? Really?

[naaman fletcher]

61. From the article

They did interview witnesses.

Also, while it was originally reported that they didn't take pictures, it turns out they did, and they recommended a manslaughter charge. for whatever reason the DA did nothing.

[naaman fletcher]

4. Eyewtiness testimony is notoriously unreliable

The public thinks its the best you can get, but in reality it's the worst. People lie, change their stories, get confused, get manipulated all the time.

The reality is this folks: He has the blood on the back of his head. He will never get convicted of 2nd degree murder.

That being said, the prosecutor over-charged. Had the charge been manslaughter on the premise that Zimmerman provoked the confrontation, there would be a much better chance of conviction.

[Boabab]

7. That 'blood on the head' evidence is highly suspect

and even if true, does not obviate the fact that GZ acted in depraved indifference for Trayvon Martin's life by shooting him in cold blood. Self-defense, or SYG, is not a valid defense when a person deliberately and aggressively inserts themselves into a confrontation.

There are lots of fistfights that take place every day around the country. When one of the combatants ends up being killed with a gun, then there are consequences.

Second degree is the correct charge, and I believe the jury will have the option of convicting on manslaughter.

[naaman fletcher]

8. I disagree

Please, I am not on Zimmerman's side at all, but he did not enter the confrontation to kill Martin.

He entered the confrontation to be a petty wanna-be cop dickhead, but he did not go into it with intent to kill.

Then, the blood on the back of the head will be enough to convince the Jury that he was in fact attacked by Martin, or reasonable doubt anyway.

there is NO WAY he will be convicted of 2nd degree manslaughter. The DA overcharged.

[bl968]

9. How you beat that...

The prosecutor should simply point out that Trayvon Martin had the right to be where he was and under Florida's Stand Your Ground law had full legal right to defend himself against the illegal act of stalking by committed by George Zimmerman. A man who was carrying and used a gun against someone who was legally where they had the right to be.

[naaman fletcher]

11. easy

None of that says Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder. Zimmerman has blood on the back of his head. He was the nieghborhood watch guy. I think he provoked the fight, but he did not just decide to kill Martin. It is not 2nd degree murder.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

15. No. If he decided to kill Martin, it would have been 1st degree murder.

As far as being a neighborhood watch guy, he was a "volunteer" neighborhood watch guy.

In the 1850's, volunteer neighborhood watch guys were officially called Vigilantes.

Vigilantes are not entitled to any special treatment on the grounds that they are "neighborhood watch guys."

[naaman fletcher]

16. I'm sorry

The definition of murder is if it was pre-meditated. It was not premeditated. I'm sorry. You are wrong.

He doesn't get any special treatment, but the point is, he was being a neighborhood watch guy, not looking to kill people. If he was looking to kill people, why did he have a record of calling police so often? why didn't he just hunt them down and kill them?

It was not premeditated. It was not murder. You can be emotionally invested in this as much as you want, but that does not change the fact that it was not premeditated.

[starroute]

24. First degree murder is premeditated

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/second+degree+murder

second degree murder n. a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility.

[naaman fletcher]

26. for that

the DA would have to prove that Zimmerman assaulted Martin. Zimmerman has the wounds on the back of his head. Even in this article the one witness maintains that Martin was on top.

Not gonna happen.

But, Zimmerman provoked the confrontation, he is guilty of manslaughter.

[SemperEadem]

48. the testimony of the girlfriend establishes

that zimmerman assaulted Martin while she was talking with him on his cell phone.

[naaman fletcher]

49. Does it?

I am asking that because I truly don't know. I think she said that Martin was worried he was being followed.

[SemperEadem]

51. yes... what reason would she have had to lie?

Unless you next try to insinuate that by virtue of the fact that she was Martin's girlfriend and black, that she was predisposed to telling a lie? The cell phone records show that he was on the phone with her at the time of the assault.

If you dont' know, then go do some research because it's all out there. The special prosecutor just released a fuck-ton of evidence, some of which you obviously know about already because you're cherry-picking what you want to know about and acting "brand new" on other pieces which are a part of the whole.

[naaman fletcher]

53. I'm not saying she was lying

I am disagreeing with your assessment of what she said. It proves Zimmerman was following Martin.. not that Zimmerman attacked Martin.

[SemperEadem]

63. then educate yourself

because she does describe hearing the altercation begin and the phone being dropped and going dead:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/us/trayvon-martins-friend-tells-what-she-heard-on-phone.html?_r=1

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/20/10774247-trayvon-martins-final-phone-call-he-said-this-man-was-watching-him?lite

[Nuclear Unicorn]

68. Hearing an altercation is not the same as knowing who started it

You're asking 12 people who have been screened against possible bias to take what one young lady heard over the phone and weigh it against what a witness describes from the scene. Your theory, while legitimate, would be a hard sell.

just sayin'

[SemperEadem]

71. nice try.

apologist.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

72. Not being able to counter a point -- a legitmate point -- and name-calling won't hold up in court

You're certainly entitled to spew nonsense but at the end of the day what you accuse of being apologia is what a vigorous defense counsel will bring into consideration for the jury to hear. Only one in twelve need to consider that point -- or any other point -- valid to affect an acquittal. Remember, presumption of innocence unless guilt can be established beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt is the rule.

Saying someone heard a fight sheds no light. That there was a fight is not a matter of contention. In fact, the defence will more than likely claim there was a fight and there is plenty of other evidence establishing there was a fight. The defense is hinging on the claim the Trayvon swung first and so dominated the fight that the defendant was in fear for his life.

It will take more than reaffirming what everyone else already admits to rebut that claim. Angrily typing "apologist" is more of an admission of the lack of rebuttal than an indictment of my bringing up what is an obvious fact and anticipated argument. I'm not a lawyer, if I can state the obvious why wouldn't someone trained, experienced and paid to defend people in a court of law make the same statement?

Not to sound mean but it doesn't sound like you're a lawyer either. Perhaps there is a counter claim neither one of us is privvy to or thought of within a legal/evidence context.

As neither one of us is a professional and this case is so thorny perhaps the most honest and sensible thing to do is to wait and let the professional hash it out and let the jury decide.

[SemperEadem]

64. So I'm lying...

ok.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

27. In the real world, you don't get to make up your own definitions for the law.

Your view that "It was not premeditated. It was not murder.," is contrary to the law of Florida.

Florida makes a distinction between first-degree and second-degree murder.

As explained by the court in Wilson v. State, 493 So.2d 1019 (Fla. 1986), premeditation is the essential element which distinguishes first-degree murder from second-degree murder. The prosecution does not need to show premeditation in order to convict Zimmerman for second-degree murder.

The facts don't show a sufficient intent to support a conviction in Florida for first-degree murder. At this time, if the facts are as represented, they do show a sufficient intent to support a conviction in Florida for second-degree murder.

[naaman fletcher]

28. yeah i was wrong,

but still don't think is supports 2nd degree murder in any way.

[brush]

40. Premeditated?

You have your facts wrong. Premeditated murder is 1st degree, meaning you planned it and intended to kill someone. 2nd degree murder is what's called a crime of passion. You get in an argument or fight with someone, get mad, loose your temper and kill them. Sound familiar? Bingo! 2nd degree murder for zimmerman. He's not walking. He'll be convicted of something. The jury will most likely have the option of convicting him of the lesser crime, manslaugter, accidental killing. He may not have been thinking too straight that night, may not have intended to kill but he did. He's not walking, SYG law or not.

[Dragonfli]

33. No, he was not the neighborhood watch guy, he just said that he was

all relevant neighborhood groups pointed out early on that he merely claimed that he was, and in fact was in no way attached to any of them.

[SemperEadem]

47. blood on the back of his head is meaningless

he wasn't photographed until long after the incident happened--and he could have done that to himself in an attempt to further his little tale about being beaten by Martin.

Zimmerman was treated at the scene by paramedics, then cuffed and driven in a police cruiser to the Sanford police station. He was questioned for hours and later released. In police surveillance video obtained last month by ABC News, Zimmerman's wounds are not apparent, and there were no bandages on his head.

It's curious that the crime scene investigators have not said they recovered any blood or tissue from the scene to corroborate zimmermans' tale that Martin had him on the concrete, which supposedly caused the injuries for which no paramedic on the scene treated and bandaged.

His nose doesnt' look broken, as many have said, a broken nose is obvious if it hadn't been set, which his hasn't. The bruising doesn't go away in two hours--and a cop would have seen black and blue in the center of his face were that the case. No picture of zimmerman ever taken shows him with a bruised center of his face. One would think that his face would have been a carnival of lacerations and swelling, if we went by the story zimmerman has been telling about Martin and his "Way of the Hundred Fists" pummelling he gave zimmerman.

Plenty of aggressors who start fights and murder the person they chose to attack end up with wounds when the victim attempts to protect themselves by fighting back.

I can't for the life of me see how Martin was supposed to lay down his safety and his life and just let zimmerman attack him just because he was a young black kid talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone, wearing a hoodie on a rainy night after walking back from the corner market.

But apologists will reach for anything...

[24601]

52. The initial "blood on the back of the head" are were taken by a phone that time

& GPS stamped them at the scene less than 5 minutes after the shooting. These are the photos ABC news showed the day of his his bond hearing.

[naaman fletcher]

65. What's your definition of long after?

"he wasn't photographed until long after the incident happened"

[happyslug]

56. Zimmerman MIGHT be, based on FLORIDA's Definition of Murder

Second Degree Murder, In Florida, is defined as:
"The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

The statute then adds a list of Crimes that duplicates what is listed under First Degree murder, including "Aggravated stalking,". Thus the difference between First and Second Degree Murder, in Florida, is Second Degree does NOT require any premeditation to commit Murder, while First Degree REQUIRES premeditation.

Florida also has "Third Degree Murder" which covers any killing committed doing a Felony NOT listed under Second Degree Murder.

Manslaughter, in Florida, means the following:
The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.07.html

[kestrel91316]

10. Carrying a loaded weapon into a planned illegal confrontation + death in said confrontation =

murder in most states.

[naaman fletcher]

13. I disagree

The jury will never believe anything other than what Zimmerman did: Act as the neighborhood watch asshole following the guy. He shouldn't have done it. But, there is no way his intent was to even get into a physical fight with Martin, let alone kill him. It is not 2nd degree murder. He will never be convicted of it.

[Boabab]

20. "Intent" has nothing to do with depraved indifference

In trying to defend the indefensible, you're misstating the law. Under "depraved mind murder", one can be charged in the second degree without having to prove intent.

Here is the relevant text:

Depraved mind murder covers the unlawful killing of another person by an imminently dangerous act that demonstrates a “depraved mind” with an extreme lack of regard for human life. This type of second-degree murder punishes extremely reckless, uncaring acts that lead to death. It does not apply to mere reckless indifference toward human life; that is covered by manslaughter laws. It also does not apply to murders committed with intent to kill; that is covered by first degree murder. Instead, committing an imminently dangerous act with a depraved mind means committing an act an ordinary person would know is reasonably likely to lead to death or serious injury, doing so with ill will or evil intent (but not intent to kill), and doing so in a way that demonstrates a complete indifference to human life.

[naaman fletcher]

21. He wasn't depraved indifferent

He was doing what he did every day, as the wannabe cop neighborhood watch guy.

Look at the texas cops who just got acquitted last week. There is no way that anyone is going to convince a jury that a neighborhood watch guy acted with depraved indifference. no way at all.

I know people here think that simply carrying a gun shows depraved indifference, but that is not the law and no jury will convict him on that.

[Dragonfli]

34. He was never part of any neighborhood watch! Everyone knows that but FOX news by now. jeez. /nt

[brush]

41. Intent

Intent has nothing to do with 2nd degree murder. That's first degree, where you plan it and intend to kill someone and actually do it. 2nd degree is a crime of passion where you're arguing or fighting, get mad (maybe because you're getting your ass kicked), loose your temper and kill the other person. Sound familiar?

[marble falls]

54. I was prepared to discount every one of your assertions ....

but the fact is every one of your points address my concerns. My biggest being that he was mis-charged and he'll walk because of it. Nice job of maintaining your poise while some of us here were letting our emotions get ahead of the facts. The cops and the county attorney really let the ball drop and the dispatcher should have been instructed to order all would-be and wanna-be cops to not follow or confront a "suspect", black and hoodied or not. i hope Zimmerman has some sort of assets for the civil suit arising out of his proximate cause of Trayvon's needless and horrifying death.

[naaman fletcher]

62. He won't have any assets

Anything he would have would be eaten up by his lawyers.

[marble falls]

66. My thought exactly. There's going to be an incomplete and unsatisfying justice here in the end....

with the one good thing - that these right wingers running around the country helping to write laws with harmful consequences have been seriously exposed as dangerous in ways that do not become apparent until the worse case scenario shows itself. Wait until till two ground standing armed nitwits shoot it out at high noon downtown.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

69. If I'm not mistaken (and that's a big "if")

Florida juries can convict on lesser charges, i.e. if they disagree with 2nd degree homicide they can convict on manslaughter

[marble falls]

70. I hope the jury goes for justice and is instructed in alterante charges if 2nd ....

degree murder isn't proven due to the way the police bobbled it.

[lookingfortruth]

12. There should have NEVER been a confrontation. He stalked a kid merely because of skin color.

He was told by police DO NOT follow the kid.

What the hell is someone doing walking around his neighborhood carrying a gun. I would not feel comfortable having a neighbor walking near my house carrying a gun.

The DA should have gone for murder 1.

[naaman fletcher]

14. sorry, you don't know the law

It is perfectly legal to carry a gun in florida if you have a license. That you say the DA should have gone for murder 1 shows you know nothing at all about the law.

Also, he was not told "DO NOT" follow the kid. That is simply incorrect.

Attitudes like yours are what is going to cause Zimmerman to go free.

[Selatius]

46. The dispatcher suggested that he not follow the suspect.

Whether he was ordered or suggested to really doesn't matter to the ending. At any rate, the police communicated, at the least, that he should not follow Martin.

[naaman fletcher]

50. Right

which is why I think Zimmerman ultimately provoked the confrontation and is guilty of manslaughter.

[TheWraith]

25. Pre-formed intent to kill isn't required for second-degree murder.

Premeditation is only required for first degree.

[magical thyme]

31. intent to kill is murder in first degree

Zimmerman is appropriately charged with second degree murder. His intent is irrelevant.

The DA did not overcharge. In Florida, the jury can find him guilty of manslaughter. The DA went for the highest provable charges, leaving room for a plea bargain or for the jury to decide murder versus manslaughter.

[brush]

39. Wanna-be cop dickhead

Yes, zimmerman was all that on the night of the murder. He also acted with depraved indifference to Martin's life and he unlawfully detained him. That's kidnapping. He'll be convicted of something. A previous poster mentioned that the jury will probably be given the option to convict him on manslaughter charges instead of 2nd degree murder. He should go to jail. He killed an unarmed kid.

[lunatica]

45. You're assuming that Zimmerman would have done the same thing without a gun

His intent may have not been to kill Trayvon dead in his tracks, but he made sure he had his gun, just in case. What are the chances he would have even left his house if he didn't have a gun to bolster his hatred?

When does intent to kill happen? I would argue that when he picked up the gun it was already his intent, even he was only doing it as a coward who needs a gun in order to confront someone. If you can argue that he would have done exactly the same thing without a gun, then maybe you have a point.

If I ever get a gun to carry around with me, it will be because I have the intent to use it. Period.

[Chan790]

59. Actually...

this is all they need to charge second-degree manslaughter in FL:

He entered the confrontation to be a petty wanna-be cop dickhead

He was already told by the dispatcher on-recording to desist. He did it anyway with an amoral reckless indifference to consequence.

That's depraved indifference by-statute.

he did not go into it with intent to kill.

Intent is irrelevant to manslaughter charges. That's what differentiates murder from manslaughter; murder means you intended to kill, manslaughter means you willfully-acted in a manner that resulted in the death of another regardless of your intentions.

The filed-charges are statutorily correct. Whether the police and DA muddled this to the point that conviction is impossible is another question.

[Starboard Tack]

67. I doubt any of it would have happened had Zimmerman been unarmed.

This is the problem when idiots think that carrying a gun empowers them. But you are correct, manslaughter is the right call.

[uppityperson]

17. I've seen that picture. Finally found info on when it was supposed to have been taken.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-tells-trayvon-martins-parents/story?id=16177849#.T7woeUXY95Y

[lonestarnot]

35. And the worst part about that is, we execute folks based on eye witness testimony in their convictio

ns.

[JoeyT]

43. I have to agree with you about the prosecutor overcharging.

A charge of manslaughter would have been easy to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Getting a jury to agree he's guilty of 2nd degree murder is going to be very iffy, especially given how badly they fucked the investigation up. All the prosecution has to do is provide reasonable doubt, and he'll walk.

I think he's actually *guilty* of 2nd degree murder, but I'm not on the jury, so my opinion doesn't count.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

57. Not necessarily as it relates to 2nd degree murder.

Say there was a scuffle, that Zimmerman did get blood on the back of his head, but then he pulls out his gun and the scuffle stops.

And then, One-Mississippi, Two-Mississippi, Three-Mississippi-BAM! Zimmerman pulls the trigger.

That slight delay may be the difference between manslaughter and murder. It's 2nd Degree, so the prosecution doesn't have to prove premeditiation, but they do have to prove intent. If the threat from Trayvon had subsided once Zimmerman pulled his gun, but in the three seconds Zimmerman is steaming angry from getting beat in a fight by Trayvon and he decides to pull the trigger, that's intent and that is murder.

Also, say Zimmerman gets the blood on his head from the fight, the two scuffle and switch sides back and forth, but eventually it is Zimmerman on top of Trayvon with a gun pulled, and Zimmerman, firmly in control of the situation with knowledge that police are on the way, still decides to pull the trigger, that speaks to intent as well.

Rewinding for a second, let's not forget Zimmerman said, "These assholes always get away." Clearly the guy had a chip on his shoulder about the situation, he considered Trayvon to be a thug up to no good (even though he had no evidence whatsoever to corroborate such an assertion, and Trayvon was doing nothing that evening except returning home from the store), and he probably wanted his self-percieved neighborhood crime problem to end and he was going to end it how he saw fit. That speaks to intent.

Now, let's not forget that Zimmerman has been charged with manslaughter as a lesser charge. The prosecution has its work set out for the second degree charge, but if the witnesses fall into place, it can be proven. Otherwise, the lesser manslaughter charge is still very much provable IMHO.

The one case that was fatally over-charged was Casey Anthony. We all had our suspicions that she had something to do with her daughter's disappearance/death, but it really didn't go beyond that: vague suspicions. Yet the SA in that case chose to present it as a premediated, first degree capital murder case. Despite no clear indication as to the exact cause of Caylee's death. Despite no clear evidence as to Casey's exact motive other than a half-assed, "Casey wanted to go back to her party girl days so yada yada yada she murdered her daughter." That prosecution was a monumental failure and I'm not surprised at all that she was acquitted.

But this is not the Casey Anthony case. Here, we know the cause of death: shooting. We know who killed Trayvon Martin: it's the man on trial, George Zimmerman. There's no burden to prove premeditation. The only real substantial burden that needs to be met actually rests on the defense, and that is the affirmative defense of self-defense.

The trial will have to play out as it will, but I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that a second degree murder conviction is impossible.

[byeya]

60. Eyewitness testimonry is unreliable but is convincing to juries.

Agree 100% that 2nd degree murder will be hard to attain. I hope the jury has the chance to lower the charge to manslaughter and convict.
A study from about ten years ago showed that people involved in crimes or motor vehicle accidents even as victims will lie about 70% of the time even when it does them no good or is only tangential to the case. Juries eat up eyewitness testimony however.

[Boabab]

5. More FL law enforcement efficiency on display

No matter how many times the story changes, the fact is that an innocent teenager ended up dead and the perp went against all of the rules established by the organization he was supposed to volunteering for. In addition, he was specifically discouraged from getting directly involved at all.

This has the potential of being a bigger circus than the OJ trial -- provided that a trial actually takes place in this century.

[fascisthunter]

6. purposely fucked up

that is what I think

[slackmaster]

18. Well, that really clears things up

[grok]

19. if they can change their stories

without their credibility being questioned, then so should Zimmerman be allowed.

Fair is fair.

Be that as it may, the stories are now so muddied that doubt should be higher. Which is all Zimmerman needs for an acquittal.

[naaman fletcher]

22. reading the story in the article

The first two are totally unreliable. The third and fourth back Zimmerman up.


No way he gets convicted of murder.

[brush]

42. No aquittal

He's admitting killing Martin. It's not like he said he didn't do it. There's a dead body that he shot and killed. He'll be convicted of something even if it's manslaughter instead of the higher 2nd degree charge.

[bayareaboy]

29. Zimmermania should have been charged with voluntary manslaughter ...

and he would probably cop a plea to involuntary manslaughter. he would get seven to ten years or more.

But who knows now?

[solarman350]

30. MURDER suspect zimmerman to be arraigned on May 29, 2012

George Zimmerman, the Florida man who claimed self-defense in the February shooting death of an unarmed Trayvon Martin, was scheduled to be arraigned May 29 on a second-degree murder charge following an initial court hearing.

Zimmerman, 28, charged yesterday, appeared today before Judge Mark Herr via teleconference for the alleged murder of Martin, 17. Handcuffed and wearing a dark-colored jumpsuit, Zimmerman said only “yes sir” to acknowledge his representation by lawyer Mark O’Mara during the five-minute hearing. The judge found sufficient evidence to support the charges, clearing the way to send the case to a trial court.

“I do find there was probable cause for charges as portrayed in the information,” Herr said at the hearing, held at a detention facility in Sanford.

While Zimmerman or his lawyers may enter a not guilty plea at the May 29 hearing before a circuit court judge, O’Mara may seek a separate hearing on bail beforehand. Zimmerman is being held in protective custody and faces as long as life in prison if convicted.

Reference Link:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04-12/zimmerman-arraignment-set-for-may-29


-->Don't Forget:

The Feds are considering charging MURDER suspect zimmerman with a hate crime...punishable by death. So, regardless of the outcome of this Florida-run MURDER trial, MURDER suspect zimmerman could STILL face Federal charges for committing a lethal hate crime.

[freshwest]

32. Some people appear to have forgotten the charge is murder, if only in the second degree.

[Dragonfli]

36. Many also appear to believe the FOX news fantasy that he was a member of some neighborhood watch

group and therefore expected to stalk his neighbors with a gun.

It does not appear to matter one bit that he was not a member of any such group except the one in his own head.

Self appointed does not mean you are anything more than a stalker looking to clean up his streets of the darker influences.
No one but Zimmerman ever thought he was part of neighborhood watch, not even the neighborhood watch!!

It was all in his disturbed little skin-head fascist brain.

[freshwest]

37. There's a thread about him harassing his co-workers at another job. I answered to the person who I

Think pretty much describes my view of Zimmerman:

He flat out is mental... been saying that all along, dude just is now wired right, and is pretty darn mean, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014123913#post8

I think he was an accident fixing to happen. Martin was the one that he got caught on. I don't believe he planned to kill him but also don't think he was responsible enough to carry. That's just MHO.

N/T

[solarman350]

38. The Prosecutor's default/fallback conviction goal for this case is Manslaughter

Last edited Wed May 23, 2012, 04:10 PM - Edit history (1)

Not sure if it'll be involuntary or voluntary. Neighborhood Watch becomes vigilante activity as soon as those doing the watching are armed...despite the bogus "stand your ground" law in Florida. Hopefully, this case will get into court, and won't get dismissed on May 29th; the Arraignment Hearing date.



Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to
All on that day?

Run from the light,
Satan's gonna see you.
Run from the light,
Satan's gonna see you.
Run from the light,
Satan's gonna see you
All on that day.

Don't make a sound,
The Devils' gonna hear you.
Don't make a sound,
The Devils' gonna hear you.
Don't make a sound,
The Devils' gonna hear you
All on that day.

Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to
All on that day?

Run to the Lord.
Lord, won't you hide me?
Run to the Lord.
Lord, won't you hide me?

Run to the Lord.
Lord, won't you hide me
All on that day?

Lord said: zimmerman,
you should've been a prayin',
Lord said: zimmerman,
you should've been a prayin',
Lord said: zimmerman,
you should've been a prayin'
All on that day.

Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to
All on that day?

The Devil said: zimmerman,
step right in!
The Devil said: zimmerman,
step right in!
The Devil said: zimmerman,
step right in!
All on that day.

When you dig in the ground,
The Devil won't catch you,
Dig in the ground,
The Devil won't catch you,
Dig in the ground,
The Devil won't catch you,
All on that day.

Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run
All on that day?

Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run to?
Oh, zimmerman,
Where you gonna run
All on that day?

Variation of "Sinner Man"

[Tommy_Carcetti]

58. It would have to be voluntary, unless Zimmerman somehow claims his gun accidently went off.

He voluntarily shot the gun that killed Trayvon. The question as to voluntarily manslaughter would be whether he was acting with gross recklessness in the events leading up to the death.

[happyslug]

55. Here is Florida's Murder Statute

782.04 Murder.—
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium, or methadone by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
(b) In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.
(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(3) When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b) Arson,
(c) Sexual battery,
(d) Robbery,
(e) Burglary,
(f) Kidnapping,
(g) Escape,
(h) Aggravated child abuse,
(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j) Aircraft piracy,
(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l) Carjacking,
(m) Home-invasion robbery,
(n) Aggravated stalking,
(o) Murder of another human being,
(p) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(q) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony is guilty of murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated without any design to effect death, by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any felony other than any:
(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b) Arson,
(c) Sexual battery,
(d) Robbery,
(e) Burglary,
(f) Kidnapping,
(g) Escape,
(h) Aggravated child abuse,
(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j) Aircraft piracy,
(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l) Unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
(m) Carjacking,
(n) Home-invasion robbery,
(o) Aggravated stalking,
(p) Murder of another human being,
(q) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(r) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
is murder in the third degree and constitutes a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(5) As used in this section, the term “terrorism” means an activity that:
(a)1. Involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life which is a violation of the criminal laws of this state or of the United States; or
2. Involves a violation of s. 815.06; and
(b) Is intended to:
1. Intimidate, injure, or coerce a civilian population;
2. Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
3. Affect the conduct of government through destruction of property, assassination, murder, kidnapping, or aircraft piracy.
History.—s. 2, ch. 1637, 1868; RS 2380; GS 3205; RGS 5035; s. 1, ch. 8470, 1921; CGL 7137; s. 1, ch. 28023, 1953; s. 712, ch. 71-136; s. 3, ch. 72-724; s. 14, ch. 74-383; s. 6, ch. 75-298; s. 1, ch. 76-141; s. 290, ch. 79-400; s. 1, ch. 82-4; s. 1, ch. 82-69; s. 1, ch. 84-16; s. 6, ch. 87-243; ss. 2, 4, ch. 89-281; s. 4, ch. 90-112; s. 3, ch. 93-212; s. 11, ch. 95-195; s. 18, ch. 96-322; s. 1, ch. 98-417; s. 10, ch. 99-188; s. 16, ch. 2000-320; s. 2, ch. 2001-236; s. 2, ch. 2001-357; s. 1, ch. 2002-212; s. 12, ch. 2005-128; s. 1, ch. 2010-121.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html