Oregon Militiamen Appear To Be Preparing To Put Local Officials On 'Trial'
Source: Talking Points Memo
After 11 days of occupying a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, a group of U.S. militiamen have brought in some "Constitutional" back up to help hold local officials accountable.
According to the Oregonian, self-proclaimed U.S. Superior Court Judge Bruce Doucette (not a real judge) arrived in Harney County Tuesday and is readying militiamen for a big old trial.
Doucette, who is reportedly associated with the sovereign citizen movement, met with individuals at the wildlife refuge Tuesday and said he believed there was substantial evidence against local officials to take action.
Read more: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/oregon-militiamen-prepare-for-grand-jury-against-local-officials
The time for de-escalation is over. The US government is allowing these pieces of crud to terrorize an entire community, in addition to seizing federal land via armed force.
Federal law enforcement needs to do its damn job, and if it results in a few of these loons pushing up daisies so be it.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)jmowreader
(50,560 posts)"Citizen Grand Juries" - aka "illegal kangaroo courts" - sentence everyone who comes before them in absentia to death. And I wouldn't put it past Ammon Bundy's crowd to try kidnapping people and carrying out those sentences.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)More patience is called for. The "patriots" are close to instigating violence, getting in a skirmish with the locals, etc. Once they do, law enforcement will have no choice but to move in and round them up. If they resist, well...
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)routine. And it always works because .. dumb.
phantom power
(25,966 posts)Is that really what you think we're supposed to patiently wait for?
Really?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)to terrorize an entire community,..."
NO, we are not.
1. These pieces of crud as you call these nincompoops are 30 miles out of town, on the other side of a lake, and are holed up in a few lonely buildings with no neighbors anywhere near them. They do not go out.
2. Half the uneasiness in the town is caused by outsiders mostly just being there looking around, and half is by locals getting into arguments over this stuff. Although the town in general wants these people gone, not everyone is unhappy. It's a poor town, and local merchants are benefiting from the extra money coming in.
3. Problems in the town are for the town and county governments to deal with. If they need more resources, they can apply to the state government. The federal government has NO jurisdiction over the town or any county lands outside the preserve. Its jurisdiction stops at the boundaries of the preserve, i.e., the federal land. It couldn't interfere in town even if it wanted to. Nothing even close to justifying a federal takeover of authority has occurred.
4. Not all the potentially lawless and violent people excited over this silly business are on the Bundyite side of this. Obviously. "Pushing up daisies"? You are calling for murder. These people are rank amateurs. Yes, the feds could have a swat team murder all these people within a couple of minutes. But to call for murder just for, what -- being pissed off? offended? -- is a terrible, terrible thing.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)ground.
2. What's your source for claiming the locals support these guys and that these guys are not harming the community?
3. Taking away the terrrorists' base of operations inside the preserve would take care of a lot of this.
4. If an armed paramilitary group that has taken over federal land by armed force resists law enforcement, it sure as shit isn't murder to shoot back at them.
Response to geek tragedy (Reply #7)
Post removed
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)who believe they have a right to make up the law as they go and enforce their view of the world on others through the barrel of a gun.
You are dead wrong about how these terrorists are holed up and not leaving. Numerous reports have surfaced of them coming and going and harassing the local people there. They have also destroyed federal property, and illegally accessed federal computer files.
Your suggestion that we do nothing and let this end in a bag of hot air was already tried once during the standoff at the Bundy Ranch. The result? The terrorists claimed victory and now believe they are above the law and can threaten people and the government with violence whenever they want and get away with it. The people in the surrounding community where these terrorists are holed up are now paying the price for the cowardice of people like you.
Enough is enough. These terrorists need to be arrested. If they resist, then they need to be met with deadly force.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)social conservative
authoritarian personality, follower
fascist personality
fascism
How do we imagine fascist leaders become fascist leaders? Because they draw fascist followers who want "strong" leaders unwilling to tolerate deviation of "others" the followers don't like. EVERY fascist state has at least one designated group to persecute -- to satisfy its supporters' hostile and punitive impulses.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)None of what you just wrote applies to this scenario. Try sticking on topic.
These idiots are not being persecuted because they are different. LOL. We are calling for them to be lawfully arrested because they have committed crimes. They are the ones threatening to resist this lawful measure with violence. In other words, they are the ones calling for violence.
I swear, sometimes so-called non-violence advocates are just as narrow-minded and dogmatic as the worst bible-thumpers.
JudyM
(29,251 posts)to civil society. Bit of a difference that matters a lot.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)They shouldn't expect an award.
If somehow or another a foreign power took over a part of the United States, we'd be lining up to go blow their faces off. Why treat these fuckstains any differently when they attack the United States?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Don't be ridiculous. They are saying that these people should be arrested, and if they choose to resist lawful arrest with armed force, they should be met with the same, with no tears shed if their own willfull actions result in their own deaths.
In no realm of reality is that "murder".
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)standoff to violence is a skilled killing team and the other side a bunch of amateurs of probably average IQ at best who thought they would be able to get out of this with just some jail time and maybe a movie contract.
Those who feel this way might look up terms like
authoritarian personality
authoritarian follower
social conservative
fascist personality
The reasons we see this very, very differently is that we ARE very, very, very different kinds of people. I'm pretty sure answers to why some here are so upset at lack of swift and severe punishment for challenging authority can be found by researching those terms.
Social conservatives especially are striking for their vindictiveness against and demands for harsh punishment for those they feel have broken the law. Nothing less will satisfy them.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)To repeat, what's being called for here is ARRESTING these people. A lawful arrest is not an "attack", it is not "harsh punishment", and it certainly isn't "murder". You're just making shit up about what other people here have said, for reasons that are becoming very clear.
And I suspect the only "social conservative" in the room is you, dude.
Marty McGraw
(1,024 posts)Our enforcement for the rule of Law the past decades have become a real shameful joke. Real crimes that affect a whole range in the populace are let to have the run of the place and dealt with punitively with a "Let's move Beyond" reprieve while petty crimes that affect only a few are met with severe and sometime lethal enforcement with penalties made toward the perpetrator of those petty crimes never fully re-integrating their way back into productive society. A good chunk of the reason we have the most rotten of society at the top ranks telling us all how we should view our world.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)News reports have told us
that people in Bundyland are going to town, to shop, get gas, etc
that some of them are at a local motel
that one of them took donations, went and bought beer, took it to a local motel and was binging on it
so others in the Bundy team went to town to the motel to confront him.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)christx30
(6,241 posts)in this post, and the lower one that got hidden. People that are getting really angry about it and wanting violence to resolve it are wrong. It's property. It's things. It's some fences and property. We know they are committing crimes, and those will be addressed. These people are going to be convicted and spend time in prison.
But wishing for an attack and death is no different than Republicans wanting rioters in Baltimore shot for torching a 7-11.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)retrieve their bodies in the spring.
PatSeg
(47,517 posts)are the authorities allowing people to come and go as they please? They are just encouraging them and giving them a ton of publicity.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)I mean seriously - why do that? Its like letting a burglar back inside.
PatSeg
(47,517 posts)They are like children, the more leeway you give them, the more they will take advantage of it. Someone needs to be the adult here and take control of situation. Meanwhile, these child-like men have GUNS and should be considered a potential threat.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)I don't get it either.
Why should they get mail?
Why are they allowed back in when they go out?
The kids?
Anyway, this kangaroo court act just makes them look more unhinged and clueless to me. They are still a joke. But y'know....
"It's funny 'til someone puts an eye out."
PatSeg
(47,517 posts)or convention with LOTS and LOTS of guns, and illegal trespassing of course! Bizarre world we live in.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)Like when he refuses to start WWIII over a minor incident involving a few US sailors who got into Iranian waters due to a malfunction.
Sometimes its not such a good thing. The feds are playing a waiting game here, hoping that these fools will do something so over the top that armed response will be required. Problem with this is, some innocent person is liable to be harmed or killed in the process. This situation should not be allowed to escalate to that point.
brer cat
(24,579 posts)are "hoping" that an event will occur that will require an armed response? That seems very out of character to me.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)And the feds don't want to take any action that would leave them open to accusations that they started it. So they have to sit and wait that one of the nuts will do something so egregious that they will be able to use it as an excuse to go in there and remove them by force.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)Talk about fomenting descent,can you just imagine what that City will look like after wards. This is what these people are after and they know full well no one is about to stop them.
Crowman1979
(3,844 posts)LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Power should have been shut off a week ago
These people are receiving mail? WTF? That should have been cut off ages ago
They are using my tax dollars to keep their internet going, heat on and water running.
People are just allowed to come and go as they please?
Really why not just give each of those idiots at the refuge a salary while we're at it.
Everything needs to be cut off. Make one land-line phone operational that only places calls directly to the Feds. Anyone trying to get into the refuge is stopped and turned around. Any goods they could be delivery is confiscated (food can be donated to a local homeless shelter).
It was funny for awhile but time to shut down this dog & pony show.
PearliePoo2
(7,768 posts)There MUST be something the FBI isn't telling us.
There has GOT to be a plan, right? Right?
What is it that we don't know?
fuck these assholes.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)My concern is that I thought the same thing in 2014 and nothing ever happened.
They can deal with these loons without violence, but the authorities seem to be tolerating and rewarding criminal behavior. Without heat, power, water, etc., these tough guys wouldn't last long. There is only so much their guns can do for them.
JudyM
(29,251 posts)LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Anyone else and this place would have been shut down ages ago including if it was Hispanics, Muslims or any other group that might offend the right-wing.
graegoyle
(532 posts)And, obviously, they are. Whites are being unjustifiably killed by cops, too. I am not trying to state or deny any kind of equivalency, here; it is merely factual that it has been happening. But these right-wing whackos getting away with this--being coddled by the 'authorities'--should enrage everyone.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)This is what a letter to the editor in The Curry Coastal Pilot, 1/13/2016 stated.
"This is what State Representative Wayne Krieger said about the Malheur occupation, ...if I wasnt a state representative, Id be out there with them (Pilot, Jan 6, 2015).
Really? Hed be out there with them violating Title 18, Chapter 115 of the U.S. Code concerning insurrection? If he wasnt making laws, hed be breaking them? So vote for Krieger and keep him behind a desk and not behind a barricade."
This is what we have to put up with from our state rep.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)sorry you have loonies trying to destroy it
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)how we have mistreated these poor cattle ranchers. Our republican representatives are a conservative bunch of idiots who don't even understand the law, or why we try to save our forests and wildlife. All they care about is profit.
I got a letter from Greg Walden today with a form to fill out to tell him how I feel about certain issues.
Cut Federal spending and balance the budget, or spend more to fund "larger government programs".
Increase homeland security to protect us from all these damn Muslim refugees (not in those words), or
Do nothing...we are fine.
I wish he had included something about the Burns issue. I might even have coughed up a stamp to return this with a little more than he asked on all these issues and what a fuckhead he is.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)We have Peter DeFazio for our rep. I know him personally and he's one of the few good progressives in Congress.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)His district is too right wing for my town. I can't stand him.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)world wide wally
(21,745 posts)Exactly!
Enough is enough. These people need protection from these hillbilly thugs.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)sealed off the refuge from outside contact.
I have no doubt they would whine and complain and demand that the locals guns be taken away.
That is how these fascists operate.
HeiressofBickworth
(2,682 posts)What are the charges? Or do they believe in bringing charges of specific crimes before they "try" someone?
And why local officials (or any officials for that matter) -- they have done absolutely nothing to impede these crackpots from occupying federal property and coming and going at will. What possible charges could be made against local officials.
If they have a gripe about the use of federal lands, trying local officials will do nothing. They would have to sue the Federal Government.
We need to take up a collection to buy these fuckers a clue or two.
Stryder
(450 posts)Can we now officially call this and any
future operations of such a sort a "Bag of Dicks?"
Snarkoleptic
(5,998 posts)Stryder
(450 posts)Quixote1818
(28,947 posts)Tell me this is not what is going on:
1. Illusion of Invulnerability The group believes failure is impossible.
2. Collective Rationalization Group members invent reasons to ignore warnings and refuse to objectively evaluate their stance on an issue.
3. Inherent Morality The group assumes all its actions are ethical and beneficial.
4. Stereotyping The group creates negative views of opposing groups to avoid rationally addressing objections to its activities.
5. Direct Pressure to Conform Members are discouraged from dissenting.
6. Self-Censorship Members willingly refrain from expressing doubts or objections.
7. Illusion of Unanimity Because dissent is never voiced, members assume everyone in the group agrees with the decisions made.
8. Mind Guards Some members voluntarily act to shield the group from dissent or criticism.
When groupthink occurs, creativity, mental efficiency and moral judgment become impaired. Objectivity suffers. Group members refuse to fully assess risks and reject expert advice. Once alternatives are discarded, they are not reevaluated. Only information that supports the groups viewpoint is discussed and accepted. Since the group believes it is immune to failure, it refrains from making contingency plans.
Many symptoms of groupthink can be seen in the events that lead up to the 2008 financial crisis. Wall Street CEOs believed their companies were too big and profitable to fail. Investors trusted portfolio managers who said credit default swaps based on risky mortgages would result in guaranteed returns. Unprecedented levels of leveraging were rationalized in light of soaring stock prices and wide profit margins. Bankers and homeowners assumed the housing boom would continue indefinitely, leading many people to sign for mortgages they could barely afford. Economists, accountants and regulators who expressed concerns about the situation were effectively threatened, marginalized or ignored.
Other famous examples of groupthink can be found throughout history. In 1961, President John F. Kennedy approved a CIA plan to invade Cuba and overthrow its leader, Fidel Castro. Kennedys belief in the infallibility of the mission and its organizers resulted in troops being inadequately equipped for combat. Members of Kennedys administration who disagreed with the mission failed to speak up. The event, known as the Bay of Pigs Invasion, ended in disaster.
Similar circumstances contributed to the explosion of the Space Shuttle Challenger in 1986. Eager to launch the shuttle on schedule, NASA managers ignored warnings about launching in low temperatures. They also knew of a flaw in the shuttles O-rings but did nothing about it. Engineers who first opposed the launch for safety reasons later assented. Seventy-three seconds after the shuttle took off, it burst into pieces, killing all seven of its crew members.
Whether a group will succumb to groupthink depends on the norms the group establishes for decision making. Groups that refrain from promoting a single agenda, encourage members to share their concerns, allow independent evaluation, seek expert input and feedback, critically weigh all alternatives and develop contingency plans can avoid and even correct groupthink. Those that lack impartial leadership, good decision-making methods and external input, on the other hand, are highly susceptible to groupthink. High-stress situations, such as those involving external threats or moral dilemmas, can also lead to groupthinking.
Despite the applicability and popularity of groupthink theory, however, few studies have been done on the subject. A clear methodology for evaluating groupthink has not yet emerged due to all the variables involved. Groupthink research is highly subjective, and researchers who observe group decision making often disagree on when or why groupthink occurs. Some of the studies done have lead to conflicting conclusions about which factors are most predictive of groupthink. Nevertheless, groupthink remains an important theory of communication, because it shows how communication can break down under social pressure.
http://www.communicationstudies.com/communication-theories/groupthink
Initech
(100,083 posts)Seriously - it's like the Dark Knight Rises after Bane takes over Gotham. "Malheur militia... take control of your bird sanctuary!"
Is Dr. Crane giving mock trials now?
saltpoint
(50,986 posts)the more it's clear they are disconnected with events.
That much stupidity, plus the guns, plus the total disconnect -- not to mention the brazen violation of law -- augurs poorly for a peaceful outcome.
They're idiots. Unfortunately they're dangerous idiots.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)A million different ways to do it extending from one end of the lethal spectrum to the other. From helicopters dumping cold water on them to distant artillery strikes. Instead, we do nothing visible or effective if the Justice Department is doing anything at all. The federal government needs to show these idiots they're wrong and be effective at ending this mockery of our country.
randr
(12,412 posts)A look back at most "movements" such as the Panthers or the SDS has shown them infiltrated with FBI and other government agency operatives. This is one reason I grew to distrust our government back in the day. It is a reason I find hope in it these days.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Oneironaut
(5,506 posts)Initech
(100,083 posts)WestSeattle2
(1,730 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Like "The Night of the Skulls"
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,579 posts)we warn them that access is going to be closed and the power and water shut off. Then we wait them out. Why should the government be in a hurry? These guys are coming across as unorganized 'let's play army' types. If there is to be violence I want them to fire the first shot..........