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jpak

(41,759 posts)
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 07:54 AM Jan 2016

Murder in ‘The Jungle': Deadly mass shooting at Seattle homeless camp deepens crisis

Source: Washington Post

Seattle police say two people were killed and three wounded late on Jan. 26, in a shooting at a homeless encampment known as the "Jungle." (Reuters)
It was the speech of a lifetime: an impassioned pitch for Seattle to rally together to solve the spiraling crisis of homelessness.

“I hear your frustrations and I share them,” said Seattle mayor Ed Murray in a special television address on Tuesday night. “People are dying on our streets. We are working on a complex problem in real time.”

Murray had no idea how true his words would soon prove to be, however. Moments after the mayor finished his speech, he learned that a shooting in a homeless camp called “The Jungle” had just killed two people and injured at least three others. Two suspects, maybe more, remained on the loose.

Two homeless men had been fatally shot inside of a tent, police said. Three other homeless people, including two women, were injured in the shooting, which cops called “very targeted.”

<more>

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/27/murder-in-the-jungle-deadly-shooting-at-seattle-homeless-camp-deepens-crisis/



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Murder in ‘The Jungle': Deadly mass shooting at Seattle homeless camp deepens crisis (Original Post) jpak Jan 2016 OP
Nuts going nuts mikeysnot Jan 2016 #1
We can set-up decent camps for 1,000s of refugees and can't do the same for our homeless? Sunlei Jan 2016 #2
The homeless do not want to live in shelters vinny9698 Jan 2016 #4
not shelter for a night.We need homeless communities where people live untill they get on their feet Sunlei Jan 2016 #6
No, they want to avoid thieves and bedbugs KamaAina Jan 2016 #8
Have you seen the camps for the Refugees??? happyslug Jan 2016 #9
We need to do better for Americans who are homeless. I agree a free apartment is not enough. Sunlei Jan 2016 #10
Assuming they want to get a job... TipTok Jan 2016 #11
guess you've never been homeless. Sunlei Jan 2016 #12
Are you suggesting that every homeless person wants to have and hold a job? TipTok Jan 2016 #13
yes, I think the majority of homeless people want a job and a better life. Sunlei Jan 2016 #14
There is a difference between majority and all... TipTok Jan 2016 #15
Is is a part of any modern-day 'refugue camp' 'program' to identify who is who. Sunlei Jan 2016 #17
A lot in my area don't. hollowdweller Jan 2016 #18
Most of the Homeless can NOT hold a job.... happyslug Jan 2016 #19
Excellent post hollowdweller Jan 2016 #16
This is the 1st Mass Shooting since San Bernadino I believe. maxsolomon Jan 2016 #3
But how can people be shot from guns? Guns protect people! They don't kill people. valerief Jan 2016 #5
San Jose recently demolished its largest homeless encampment, also called "The Jungle". KamaAina Jan 2016 #7

vinny9698

(1,016 posts)
4. The homeless do not want to live in shelters
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 02:21 PM
Jan 2016

I know because I worked for the Salvation Army for 5 years. They want to drink, smoke, and carry on. Which shelters do not tolerate.
Most shelters have bunk beds in large dorms, lights and noise are out by 10 PM. Rules which some do not want to follow.
The Sally as the homeless refer to the Salvation Army, will feed and let you bathe but if you are drunk or high they won't let you spend the night. The only time the Sally will everybody stay is when the weather outside gets around freezing, then the rules are laxed and mats are put out since we run out of beds.
Some need their space and are not very sociable especially when they are drunk or on meth.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
6. not shelter for a night.We need homeless communities where people live untill they get on their feet
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 03:02 PM
Jan 2016
 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
8. No, they want to avoid thieves and bedbugs
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 03:20 PM
Jan 2016

That is why homeless people, especially single men, avoid shelters. My old office in Honolulu was down the block from both the main men's and women's/families shelter; the men's shelter was about one-third full, for the reasons outlined above. (The women waiting outside their shelter developed a relationship with the feral cats who lived in the parking lot across the street, as did I eventually. )

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
9. Have you seen the camps for the Refugees???
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 03:25 PM
Jan 2016

Most are put in tents or abandoned buildings. The biggest factor is how to do sewer and latrines? In Rural areas you can just dig a ditch and that will work for a short time period, but in urban areas that is rarely an option (for example this was the biggest problem behind "Occupy Wall-street" where could people go to the restroom, more important then even taking showers).

For any long term camp, even in Rural Areas you need to address sanitation, and that means latrines (with actual toilets not just holes in the ground) and showers. These can be built quickly, if you are willing to make fire traps (WWII era Army barracks were of this type of construction, when occupied at least one person in the barrack had to be awake to act as "Fire Guard" for they were known fire traps).

The problem with most of the homeless, is they do NOT have the income to pay the rent for a house OR suffer from mental problems that they need someone to make sure they do pay the rent and NOT damage any rental unit they are in. Many homeless can NOT get into Public Housing for they own money for damages they did when they had been in public housing before (and there is a national data base of such people). Thus how do you get such homeless people homes, when you are someone whose income is low and have no "Skills" to take care of a home (and I mean an inability to make sure the Utilities and Rent are paid, a tendency to bang on walls so that damage to the walls are done, the banging also affects any other people in the apartment complex,

Yes, a lot of the Homeless, 40 years ago, would have been in mental hospitals. They are NOT incompetent, as that term is used within the law, but can NOT hold a job, pay bills or do other things the vast majority of people do without thinking. They need a structured home environment, something less then a group home, but more someone checking up on them on a monthly basis. This is the type of homes, almost all communities refuse to permit in their communities. This should be individual housing units, small but livable (Small Kitchen, Living room, Dinning room, bedroom and bathroom with shower). Small yard would be nice but not essential. All within a short drive of each other so a care taker can check on each such unit at least once a week, The Care taker should be a Social Worker making sure the house is maintained and the person assigned to that living unit is actually staying in that residence.

Such a system would solve a lot of the problem with the Homeless. for many of them need support that they can NOT get from their family or the present social programs.

As to people who are homeless, because they can NOT pay rent do to low income, those are easy to house. Just find out a way to pay their rent. Expansion of the Section 8, Existing homes, program would do this nicely. The problem is the Federal Government has refused to increase spending on that program, thus another source of homelessness.

Notice the two largest groups of people who are homeless have to be addressed by two different programs. People who have mental issues have to be assign a case worker and probably a home (yes, assigned a home to live in for the rest of their lives). If their mental health improves, they should be permitted to try the other program, but only after it is certain that they can do so (one of the duties of the Case Worker would be to see how much such people can do without the caseworker and report on how much they can do so we can see if such improvement has occurred and moved them into the other program).

The other large group, people who CAN take care of a home, they know how to pay rent and utilities AND not do to much damage to a home, expansion of the Section 8 program is idea. We are discussing regular rental unit in all types of communities. Section 8 pays the whole rent and utilities EXCEPT for the amount equal to 30% of a Tenant's income (which the home owner must pay). As a Tenant's income increases, hopefully that 30% will exceed the actual rent due and they be out of the Section 8 program. At present the Section 8 program is only open to rental units, but buying a home should be an option, with the monthly mortgage payment adjusted to be equal to 30% of a person's Income (a price limit as to housing actual purchased would have to be agreed to, but a house no more then ten times income of a family when they enter the Mortgage would be a sufficient limit).

My point is solving the problems of Homelessness requires more then finding housing for refugees. The later is clearly temporary and as such easy to address (the Army Moves all the time on land, thus how to build quick camps are while known).

Homeless people in the US, tend to fall into two camps, people whose income can NOT pay for housing at the present time AND people who do NOT have the mental capacity to pay for and live in housing. Both have to be addressed and the solution to each are different. You do have some overlap of these two groups, so you will see people in one group when they should be in the other, thus the programs do overlap and some people will be in both programs, either at different times or at the same time. Those cases have to be handled one at a time but the above two solutions, if used together will solve MOST of the Homelessness problem in the US. The problem is setting up refuge camps is a lot easier and cheaper then the above two solutions.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
10. We need to do better for Americans who are homeless. I agree a free apartment is not enough.
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 05:10 PM
Jan 2016

People shouldn't have to q-up for 6 hours in front of the salvation army to get a spot to sleep inside. Or live in their car or live in a crazy place like 'the jungle'.

How can anyone find a job, get back on their feet or stay healthy with a 'life' like that.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
13. Are you suggesting that every homeless person wants to have and hold a job?
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 06:10 PM
Jan 2016

Along with everything that entails...?

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
15. There is a difference between majority and all...
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 06:31 PM
Jan 2016

It should be a part of any program to identify who is who...

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
17. Is is a part of any modern-day 'refugue camp' 'program' to identify who is who.
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 07:04 PM
Jan 2016

There are separate quarters for families, showers, bathroom facilities, lots of different program assistance, school/classes, medical, security.

American homeless deserve at least that level of organization.

 

hollowdweller

(4,229 posts)
18. A lot in my area don't.
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 07:08 PM
Jan 2016

There's no way they could work.

They have no life skills.

They don't know how to take instructions. They take any suggestions personally to the point of anger.

They don't know how to manage money.

I told my wife it would be nice for those folks if cities could somehow make these plastic or impervious little heated shelters. Just big enough say for a backpack or shopping cart and a bed.

They could be moved around like porta potties and they wouldn't be all together because then they get together, fight and get drunk together.

You could lock them from the inside, but there would be an override, nobody would "own" them. The people could eat at soup kitchens.

The gov't would come by on a a schedule and disinfect them in case somebody crapped or puked or shot up and died in them.

Social services could periodically check on them in case they needed anything.
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
19. Most of the Homeless can NOT hold a job....
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 07:15 PM
Jan 2016

Most Homeless fall into the Category know as "Last Hired, First Fired". They tend to be the most difficult to work with, hard time staying on task, completing jobs, even getting to and from work. All of this do to mental illness.

They once hanged a seven year old child (in the early 1700) based on the finding by a judge that he was Competent when he did the crime and thus could be hanged. If he was incompetent, even in the early 1700s, he could NOT have hanged for the crime. I bring him up to show how LOW is the definition of "Competency" which is basically do you know the difference between "right and wrong", but at the most basic meaning of that phase. The general common law rule was did the defendant have the same level of competency as a "Normal" 14 year old. Note not a slow or fast 14 year old, but a "Normal" 14 year old. If you were that competent you were competent enough to know what you were doing was criminal and thus could be punished.

Now, does that include people who are mentally retarded? The answer is YES. Does that mean someone who has delusions? The Answer is again YES. Does that include people who hear voices? Again the Answer is YES. None of those things makes a person incompetent, in fact if someone has all of those symptoms, he or she can still be found to be Competent. The test for competency is that low.

The law has had a problem with the test of Competency but the efforts to fix it has just made the issue more confused. From 1900 till the 1870s there was a movement to expand that definition, but since the 1970s the trend has been be return to the old common law rule. These two trends affect the rule in each state differently, thus you have to check your state's law on the subject to be sure, but the general rule is the above. For example in recent years a 10 year old boy was found competent to be tried as an adult in Pennsylvania. This was reversed on appeal, but the rationale was on solid grounds (Pa has a rule does anyone under 18 capable of "Reform" and if the answer is YES, must go through the Juvenile System, something the trial Judge ignored).

I bring this up, for most of the homeless are homeless for they can NOT hold a job, but are considered "Competent" under the law. I have seen the psychological reports on some of these people (not all for such reports are confidential but I do run across them) and once you read the report they is no way anyone will hire them, unless they is no one else (and even then it may be better do to without the worker then hire one of these homeless people).

These are the people who need help to keep a home. They need supervision, but there are NOT incompetent. In olden days these people who come under the jurisdiction of their extended families, but today with concentration on the Nuclear Family they tend to slip through the various social programs.

As to employability, they just are NOT employable. Most are eligible for SSI help, but can not get SSI for they have no address. The reason they have no address is they do not have the mental ability to take care of a house (see my previous posts for details). Taking a quick look at them, they appear fully employable, they have two hands and two feet but they ability to do anything useful is prevented by mental problems.

That is the majority of homeless I see,l people who should be in some form of housing where they are look in once in a while. The problem is such care is expensive and the State and Federal Government do not want to spend the money. When the old Psychological hospitals were closed, the people in those hospitals (and that includes most of the people I am discussing) were just shown the door, instead of being given the community based housing and assistance that was to replace the old Psychological hospitals. Some people did try to set up such housing, but with no funding (the States saw the closing of those old Psychological hospitals as a way to save money, money to be used elsewhere NOT for the Community Housing that was suppose to replace those old Psychological hospitals).

Now, most of the Homeless look like they can work, and that is part of the problem, they look like they can work, but they can not. That is a problem a lot of people have a hard time accepting.

As to people who are homeless because of lack of income, such people are easy to house, most do not have a black mark on any housing record and they know to turn off water after you turn it on, turn off stoves after you turn them on etc. They know when something breaks it needs to be repaired or worked around. A slight increase in income will solve the problem of people who are homeless do to lack of income. The main problem is the people who are homeless do to mental problems. No one wants them, or are even willing to address the problems of such people. Such people cost money to help, money that the State and Federal Government wants to spend elsewhere then on such people.

 

hollowdweller

(4,229 posts)
16. Excellent post
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 07:01 PM
Jan 2016

I can remember when they started moving people out of institutions.

We got a lot of what was called "pre release" cases. People who were going to be released, the institutions sent their records with them in hopes that we could get them benefits so they would have something to live on.

Many people were were not psychotic, IQ's weren't low enough to be MR, but they were as you say just unable to function in society.
They would either get upset and act out outside of an institution, or be taken advantage of.

I have a neighbor like this. He's been in prison a number of times for minor offenses. He's an alcoholic and gets into fights with people.

He told me last time he got out he wished he could have stayed in. Said he couldn't get a job, couldn't find a good place to live. In prison he had regular meals, a warm bed.

A lot of these people go in and out of jail.

I think tossing people out of mental institutions was cruel, I understand the idea behind it but the support that was supposed to happen got caught up in the 80's budget cuts and a lot of these people end up in jail a lot of the times.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
5. But how can people be shot from guns? Guns protect people! They don't kill people.
Wed Jan 27, 2016, 02:45 PM
Jan 2016

We're told this over and over and over and over again by the NRA.

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