Pope suggests contraception can be condoned in Zika crisis

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: The Guardian

Pope Francis has indicated that pregnant women exposed to the Zika virus may be permitted to use contraception to avoid pregnancy, in a departure from Catholic teaching.
...
Speaking to reporters on the papal plane as he returned to Rome after a visit to Mexico, Francis obliquely suggested that artificial contraception could be used in extreme situations to avoid pregnancy.

Unlike abortion, “avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil” and in certain circumstances it may be “the lesser evil”.

He referred to the exceptional dispensation issued by one of his predecessors, Pope Paul VI, who permitted Catholic nuns in Africa to take birth control pills in the face of the risk of being raped. He was thought to be referring to the conflict in what was the Belgian Congo in the 1960s and 70s.


Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/18/pope-suggests-contraception-can-be-condoned-in-zika-crisis

---

Subject, of course, to the usual backpedaling by 'Vatican sources' when they find out he's gone off-piste ...

[skepticscott]

1. Of course

Then all of the apologists can point to "progress", and conveniently ignore the walk-back. But we can be absolutely sure that a change in fundamental doctrine will not be forthcoming.

[Helen Borg]

2. Aww! Thank you pope!

[randr]

3. Now, just maybe

he might begin to understand that there are many situations that women and their doctors may determine to be "extreme".

[perdita9]

4. Pregnant woman may be permitted to use contraception

Ummm...it's a little late for that, Your Holiness.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. That may be sloppy reporting by The Guardian

Last edited Thu Feb 18, 2016, 03:04 PM - Edit history (1)

He may have been talking about women exposed to, or definitely carrying, the virus. The actual quotes from him don't seem to include the words 'pregnant women'.

And now they've changed it to "... indicated that women exposed to the Zika virus may be permitted to use contraception to avoid pregnancy...", so I think it was The Guardian's mistake.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. Fair point.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Well, he is supposedly a virgin, so not surprising he doesn't understand how any of it works.

[ButterflyBlood]

29. I'd be surprised if he is

It's well known that in Latin America the celibacy rule is basically "don't ask don't tell" and have heard of prostitutes that even specifically cater to priests.

[brooklynite]

5. I'll just wait for the "clarification"...

[progressoid]

6. Gee, thanks Super Pope.

[Hekate]

10. Francis is no fool. He is both a scientist and a man who worked closely with poor families...

I also thought of that precedent.

[wryter2000]

11. WTF?

“avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil”

Holy excrement! Did he really say that? I never thought I'd live long enough to hear this out of a Pope's mouth.

[JudyM]

12. Big day for him... He also suggested tRump isn't Christian.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1352192

[skepticscott]

13. That's hardly earth-shattering

"Avoiding" pregnancy has always been permitted under Catholic doctrine, certainly by abstinence, and also by the more dubious "rhythm" method. Preventing pregnancy by artificial means was and still is a major no-no under Catholic doctrine. A careful and weasely choice of words by Blank Frank.

[Sunlei]

14. “avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil”

[secondwind]

15. how does contraception work, if you are already pregnant?

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. A mistake by The Guardian - see #7 (nt)

[Bradical79]

16. Catholic teachings becoming very slightly less idiotic

in regards to women and sex.

Pope Francis continues to be the best pope.

[skepticscott]

18. "Catholic teachings" have not changed one iota

under Blank Frank.

And "best pope" isn't much of a title, when all it really means is "best pope at PR".

[liberal_at_heart]

21. publicly they maintain tradition but privately they know Catholics use contraception.

I was a Catholic for a couple of years. My husband and I had just had our second child and I was exploring my spiritual side and wanted to try the Catholic church. When we told them at the catechism that we would be using contraception they said although church doctrine is against it they know people use it and basically just look the other way.

[skepticscott]

23. And?

That's daily practice, not teachings. Promulgated by people who want your money and your presence on membership rolls.

[Wednesdays]

55. You'd prefer the previous pope?

[skepticscott]

60. The only difference

is that this pope is better at feel-goody and at manipulating the media. As far as things that really matter, I see no difference. This pope still advocates that an entire segment of the population should be deprived of their full rights as human beings. Are you saying I should admire that?

[awoke_in_2003]

19. Fuck you, pope Frank. nt

[fullautohotdog]

49. Why? Because he's saying there's some things that can change?

I know women who had significant health problems having kids in the '60s. The pill would have stopped it. But they were Catholic. I only wish this kind of news had become mainstream 50 years ago.

BTW, until Roe v. Wade, most Catholics were Democratic. So go ahead and keep crapping on the 22 percent of Americans who are Catholics. See how that wins elections...

[snooper2]

64. Every year more Americans are leaving religion...soon enough that will be 2%

[fullautohotdog]

65. In a century or so MAYBE

So go ahead and keep crapping on Catholics. I'm sure the Hispanic community won't care...

[liberal_at_heart]

20. Another big step taken by this Pope, but it does speak to how far this Pope

and future Pope's will have to go to bridge the gap between centuries of church dogma and what people actually practice in their everyday lives. Catholics have been using contraception without the church's permission for a long time, and they will use contraception if they feel they need to prevent a potential fetus from becoming infected with the zika virus whether the church gives them permission or not.

[Fred Drum]

22. additionally, the pope is allowing his priests to use prophylactics

while in the rectory

something something latin, something something young boys

a real maverick, this frank dude

[rpannier]

24. Pat Buuchanan and Bill O' Reilly will go off the rails about this

They love being outraged
I am certain they will paint this as the most outrageous and irresponsible thing any pontiff has ever done in the last gazillion years

[tblue37]

33. Limbaugh has already started with the outraged squawking. nt

[gordianot]

25. When a Catholic Pope endorses or hints at birth control it is serious.

It pays to have some "faith" in Science and anticipate what may be coming this summer.

[spyker29]

26. AIDS still not enough of a threat?

[AllyCat]

27. And it can be used in the "I don't want to have a baby" crisis

And the "I really don't want an STD crisis". Amazing how affirming life can lead to a reasonable decision. Keep going Pope Francis! Don't stop there!

[AlbertCat]

28. contraception can be condoned in Zika crisis

But not with AIDS.


Or any other STDs.


What a bunch of irresponsible malarky the Pope and his church are!

[lastlib]

30. Welcome to the twentieth century, Your Holiness!

(Oh, wait-..................)

[milestogo]

31. ok ladies time to go wild!!!

[tblue37]

32. "pregnant women . . . can use contraception to avoid pregnancy." Talk about

too little too late. (Yes, I know it is probably just a reporter's error.)

[skepticscott]

34. And, as predicted, the Vatican is already backpedaling wildly

from the pope's statements.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218224114

Now that the gullible progressives have been taken in again, the conservatives can be mollified, and the Vatican can enjoy talking out of both sides of their mouth.

[Lordquinton]

35. Our pessimism was justified

One day they will actually change something. It should also include the Pope begging women for forgiveness.

[cheapdate]

36. That's incredible, actually. Unexpected and welcomed progress. Go Francis!

[bvf]

38. What's incredible is the RCC's presumption

that it can dispense "permission" at all.

"Progress"? It would be, if we were still living in the middle ages.

[cheapdate]

39. While we still find ourselves living in a world where religion exists, and the RCC exists,

and people exist who find theses things personally meaningful, Pope Francis' slightly softened stance on birth control is a new and welcomed development.

[bvf]

40. That's just the problem.

Several billion people are not only fine with the idea of worshiping an imaginary being, but well over a billion of those also allow a charlatan (who shields child abusers from justice and works to foster the spread of AIDS throughout a large part of the third world) to dictate what women can do with their bodies in the name of that imaginary being.

If you consider this news to be a welcome development, I am truly sorry for you.

[cheapdate]

41. You're thinking is not based in reality and is therefore badly flawed.

Essentially, you're saying that we shouldn't look at this as an improvement because in an ideal world religion and the RCC wouldn't exist.

There's nothing there. Your argument is based on a premise (in an ideal world religion wouldn't exist) that doesn't exist.

You're comparing something to nothing and pretending you've come up with a meaningful conclusion.

It's pure drivel.

[AlbertCat]

42. we shouldn't look at this as an improvement because ....

.... religion is obsolete as far a biology is concerned.... regardless of who and how many believe the ancient superstitions.

It may be a vague fuzzy slight improvement in an ancient and obsolete boys club, but there are plenty that even this attitude still harms... a lot who don't care what the Pope or his club thinks.

[cheapdate]

45. Right, and for those who don't care one whit what the Pope says

the entire point is moot. But for the literally tens of millions of active and devout Catholics around the world who DO listen to the Pope, this development is consequential, even if only modestly and incrementally.

[bvf]

44. You can't dispute a thing I said

so you do the only thing available, which is to caricaturize statements that perhaps you find uncomfortable, and respond instead to your own invention.

Listen: The reality is just as I said. Over a billion people on this planet hang onto every utterance of an empowered clown (that is, if they're "good" catholics), and are expected to applaud when he grants "permission" to half of them to avoid sex.

(Given that he's employed a former Fox News correspondent as his PR flack, its not surprising his "permission" was so vague as to render it meaningless; e.g., "The pope appears to be suggesting...," etc., etc.)

That's reality. You can't deny it.

[cheapdate]

46. You're arguing from an alternate reality,

one where the Pope isn't the head of an actual church with literally tens of millions of actual, living, devout followers.

Your reality-denying point being that nothing the Pope says can possibly be of any consequence because the church shouldn't exist in the first place.

Essentially, your argument would say that nothing the Pope says can be judged as either good or bad. Because religion is false, or something.

Anyway....

[bvf]

48. That is precisely what I am *not* doing.

Agreed: the pope is indeed the head of an actual church with literally over a billion (much more than your "tens of millions"--you might want to check with the Vatican on that) actual, living, devout followers.

Further I am saying that what the pope says is indeed of consequence. Our only difference here is that you seem to regard this fact as a positive. People who can think for themselves--who have either been fortunate enough to have been raised without religious indoctrination or have simply outgrown the delusion--do not.

Tell me why AIDS is still at a gallop in subsaharan Africa without mentioning anything to do with a deity that over a billion people think they speak to on a semi-regular basis. Go ahead. Try.

[cheapdate]

54. You're missing the point and completely misconstruing my meaning.

The Catholic church is wrong on contraception, stupidly, incomprehensibly, and dangerously wrong. Pope Francis' new promclamation, which declares that contraception is allowable in certain situations, is a small thing in practical terms. It's not going to bring back the thousands of lives lost to the AIDS virus that could have been prevented if not for the infuriating, misguided, stubborn, intransigence of the Catholic church.

But in subjective terms the Pope's proclamation is a seismic shift. It is unquestionably a good thing and it is unquestionably progress relative to the alternative, the alternative being the former state of affairs wherein the position of the church was that contraception was an unequivocal mortal sin and not allowed anytime, anywhere, for any reason.

If you're determined to accept nothing less than the church's complete capitulation, an apology from the Pope, the selling off of all church assets, the disbanding of the Roman Catholic faith, and then reprogramming of all former Catholics, then I'm wasting time.

This is a positive thing and a step in right direction. I applaud Pope Francis. He's the best Pope the church has had in my lifetime.

[bvf]

56. Again, my sympathies to you.

An old man simply substitutes one line of pure bullshit for another, and you call it a seismic shift.


Fun fact:

Did you know Catholics are supposed to believe that that's real human flesh they're eating at communion?

[cheapdate]

58. Right then.

My later hypothesis was correct. Your entire front is nothing but an irreconcilable grudge against religious faith generally. "Fuck the Pope!" and all that. Got it. With that, I'll say farewell to this pointless dialogue.

[bvf]

59. "Grudge"?

That's a word people use to label criticism they cannot answer rationally. Your use is a perfect case in point, but in general, it seems to be a favorite fall-back among apologists for those who protect child abusers and promote AIDS.

[treestar]

63. you're dodging the point

you are arguing no God exists and therefore the RC Church is meaningless and stupid. To you. There are a lot of people who believe it. You think them stupid, but they still believe it.

[bvf]

67. I've never said believers are stupid.

Deluded, certainly. That much goes without saying.

[treestar]

62. It's your opinion and insulting to

the people who "hang onto every utterance" etc. For them, it's a small improvement (and they may be so devout as to refuse the Pope's suggestion). You can expect opposition to your opinion. You act like insulting people as stupider than you because they think something different is going to convince them or anyone. I expect that from my 19 year old nephew or other persons close to childhood.

[bvf]

68. Again, I've never said believers are stupid.

Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 07:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Deluded, yes.

The vast majority of them were raised to believe in absolute nonsense by people who were similarly raised, and so on.

It's no easy thing to question something you've accepted as fact your whole life (even when nothing--nothing--supports it), only because it's been drilled into you from the time you began to acquire language.

People who would manipulate you are thankful for this. It keeps them rich and gives them power over you. All it takes is for you to not question obvious bullshit.

[NYC Liberal]

52. He said it was a sin, and wrong.

[cheapdate]

53. But declaring it conditionally allowable is still a seismic shift in the church.

[treestar]

61. What I was thinking

for the RC Church, that's quite stunning, especially from the Pope.

[bvf]

37. Fuck the pope.

Until he says, "It's absolutely none of my business what any woman does with her body--none" just fuck him sideways and for as long as he lives.

[graegoyle]

43. If humans can take this decision away from their god because of the zika virus...

Then humans should be taking this away from their god for all reasons. Why can't their god just make children immune to the virus if it's such a special situation?

[moondust]

47. How about overpopulation?

Or accidental/unwanted/impoverished pregnancy possibly leading to other terrible consequences for the children?

[houston16revival]

50. Dangerous - Try It, You'll Like It

how do they put the genie back in the bottle?

[valerief]

51. Why do people listen to these magic-men ******* at all? nt

[bklyncowgirl]

57. Any sign of progress, even one so small as this should be applauded.

The question is whether or not the Pope will be able to get the reactionaries in the Latin American church to go along.

[PM Martin]

66. What is sad is that people still listen to the Emperor Constantine's Evil Empire for anything.

Contraception should be readily available for all who want it.