University Of Texas Dean To Leave State, Citing Concerns Over New Campus Carry Law

[SecularMotion]

Source: Huffington Post

The dean of the University of Texas' architecture program is leaving the school, in part due to a law that soon will allow weapons on college campuses in the state.

Frederick Steiner will depart UT Austin after nearly 15 years to head the University of Pennsylvania's School of Design. He cited the new law as a significant factor in his decision, saying the policies "don't make any logical sense at all" in a university environment.

"It's not like there are a bunch of pheasants roaming around the campus, it's not a hunting environment," he said. "It doesn't seem to be appropriate to this kind of place."

Gun-friendly Texas announced the changes last year, which will allow students and faculty with permits to carry concealed handguns on campus, in classrooms and in some dormitories. The law goes into effect at universities in August and at community colleges next year.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ut-dean-fritz-steiner-campus-carry-laws_us_56cfc028e4b0871f60eaf23a

[rjsquirrel]

1. One of many

I'm a scientist and UT alum. Many colleagues and friends are trying to leave. Many alums are promising no more support for UT.

Hook 'em?
Fuck 'em.

[RKP5637]

32. I would leave too, I just can't imagine any wise and sane person seeing this as a good thing,

especially in an academic environment. To me, in an academic environment, we should rise above the insanity of this decision. If I were there, I would be planning to relocate.

[onehandle]

2. Gun nuts. Backwards schoolbooks. Ted Cruz. Poisoning by deregulation.

All that's left behind as the smarter flee.

What kind of future do they have?

[Jefferson23]

3. More fall out, this is so sad although perfectly understandable. UT Austin is such a fantastic

place of learning..this is a terrible turn.

[Dustlawyer]

8. I have two kids graduating this Spring! Glad they will be out of harms way.

On another related note, one referendum we are voting for this time is allowing Texas collages and University to opt out of open/concealed carry. Stop the insanity!

[Jefferson23]

9. Yes and I hope it works. I have friends there, more than a few and it is worrisome.

I don't have to tell you how special that place is, this is just awful to see
great educators leaving..but I don't blame them.

[Dustlawyer]

17. I graduated from UT in the 80's and it was an awesome experience! My kids have loved it as well.

Austin is a unique, beautiful and wonderful city, except the traffic!

[Jefferson23]

28. Yep, awesome Austin. I think that is great your kids went there too...very cool.

Congratulations and enjoy graduation time, it won't be too much longer.

[RKP5637]

33. I could never sit in class with people around me packing guns. FFS, what a horrible environment. n/t

[Jefferson23]

36. It's interesting that private conservative universities in Texas have opted out.

They don't want it and with good reason.

[GGJohn]

39. How would you know?

And very few students would be carrying, you have to be 21 to acquire a CHL.

[RKP5637]

40. Kids in school generally know what's going on. n/t

[GGJohn]

41. Again, how would you know if it's concealed?

And this law is geared more towards teachers and staff, not towards students, as most are under 21 years of age.

This hasn't been a problem at the other colleges that allow for CC, so why would it be a problem here?

[RKP5637]

43. Please see #42. n/t

[scscholar]

79. Because those people never leave them concealed!

they always constantly pull them out to show them off or clean them. Why does their kind feel the constant need to clean constantly and constantly clean?

[GGJohn]

80. And you know this..................how?

If you pull your concealed carry weapon to show it off, that's brandishing and that's illegal, as far as cleaning your weapon, of course you clean it after shooting it, otherwise it could jam up.

You're just making shit up now.

[RKP5637]

42. Another question I have, is who are they protecting themselves from?

Not asking to be controversial, but are we in that serious a condition in the US to have to carry guns for protection? I guess I really can see that in some situations, but in an academic setting?

[GGJohn]

45. How many school shootings have there been?

And armed teacher/staff member may, one day, prevent a school shooting.

[RKP5637]

46. To be truthful, I have not tracked it that closely, but I wonder if this becomes more prevalent,

will there be shootings. I guess time will tell. That said, I can see situations wherein I would carry protection.

[Bad Dog]

71. And Wee Jimmy Kranky may become Scotland's first minister.

Unless you're specifically trained you're likely to freeze when shooting starts. That's what happened when Gabrielle Giffords was shot, it was a folding chair, not a gun that stopped that rampage.

In the wake of the unthinkable massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, pro-gun ideologues are once again calling for ordinary citizens to arm themselves as a solution to mass shootings. If only the principal at Sandy Hook Elementary School had possessed a M-4 assault rifle she could've stopped the killer, they say. This latest twist on a long-running argument isn't just absurd on its face; there is no evidence to support it. As I reported recently in our in-depth investigation, not one of 62 mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years has been stopped this way. More broadly, attempts by armed civilians to intervene in shooting rampages are rare—and are successful even more rarely. (Two people who tried it in recent years were gravely wounded or killed.) And law enforcement overwhelmingly hates the idea of armed citizens getting involved.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings

[GGJohn]

73. ...

Unless you're specifically trained you're likely to freeze when shooting starts

Then why are there numerous stories of average citizens successfully defend themselves with firearms?

Maybe that's what you would do, but don't extrapolate what you may do to the rest of us.

[Hoyt]

82. Because, like Zman they intimidate and sometimes shoot unarmed people. But, to you

Zman is just an example of defensive gun use.

[GGJohn]

83. Oh, look, it's Hoyt telling lies again about me. eom.

[The Redheaded Guy]

87. Both of you - take it to the gungeon

and keep us out of this crap.

[GGJohn]

88. Hoyt's been banned from the Gungeon for a bigoted, racist rant

against firearm owners. He likes to tell lies about DU firearm owners and when asked to produce links to claims he wildly makes, he rarely produces them.

Nobody is involving you in these discussions except you, it's your choice to respond or not, so don't blame others for your involvement in this "crap".

[Bad Dog]

90. Not really.

I'm fortunate enough to live somewhere where we're not subject to the tyranny of the second amendment. We pay no attention to pathetic individuals too scared to walk out their front door without being armed to the teeth.

We don't have mass shootings, we have common sense.

[Calista241]

47. Georgia has had concealed carry on university campuses since 2010.

I'm not aware of any student / teacher shootings since the laws changed here, but i do know there have not been any mass shootings.

I have no idea the number of students or teachers that are actually concealed carrying though.

[RKP5637]

50. It could be something that goes by the wayside once the heat of discussion is over wherein

many just might not opt for it and the sensationalism of it all is over.

[a la izquierda]

92. They're protecting themselves...

From their own shadows.

[RKP5637]

94. Yep, I think they have a touch of paranoia! n/t

[rockfordfile]

74. There's no reason at all to carry a gun to school

[GGJohn]

77. I disagree. eom.

[TipTok]

52. You interact with and are surrounded by people every day who conceal carry....

What's the difference?

[2naSalit]

63. That could be considered a "hostile environment"

and could set up the universities for endless lawsuits for providing the hostility by allowing guns to intimidate the rest of the people on campus. "Hostile environment" is a legal term used in workplace discriminatory acts... it should be expanded in its use for education and guns on campus.

College is hard and all attention should be given to curriculum not whether the kid sitting next to you is emotionally and mentally stable and/or likely to start shooting.... seriously. When I was in college, I was glad there were no firearms allowed given the temperament of many of my fellow students and their not completely matured sense of reasoning.

[RKP5637]

68. I recall well in the dorms I would have been uncomfortable, some of the guys were clearly

on the edge.

[2naSalit]

85. One of my profs

had to have a bulletproof office on the top floor of his building... I can imagine how a bad day might turn out quite differently if guns were allowed on campus at that time.

[Vinca]

4. Can't blame him.

We're all sitting ducks in this gun-crazy country, but it doesn't hurt to better your odds.

[rockfordfile]

75. Yes I agree

[NBachers]

5. As the ceremonial "Going Away to College Firearm" becomes a proud Texas tradition.

The ads nearly write themselves. A Rockwell scene of a proud young man with his beaming parents, while his younger siblings look on with wonder and admiration. Wrapping paper spread open as a gleaming Automatic sits in it's prize case:

"Gee Whiz, I've got the best mom 'n' dad in the whole world!"

[leftynyc]

6. I'm so glad my nephew

graduated from there in 2013 before this stupid law. I loved Austin but would not be wanting him to attend that school now.

[Lodestar]

7. Do you suppose the NRA allows people to bring guns into their headquarters?

How about guns allowed inside the capital buildings while the legislature is in session.

[branford]

72. The NRA does indeed permit gun owners to carry guns in their headquarters

in compliance with state and local statutes.

[Hoyt]

84. Staff, but not visitors. NRA staff are mostly right wing racists, like the board and members.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/21/1172739/-I-Called-the-NRA-Today-Oh-Boy

[branford]

86. Sigh...

Did you even read read the "update" on you own link?

You can indeed carry firearms at the NRA headquarters, so long as you otherwise comply with Virginia and federal law. Concealed carry is permitted by both employees and visitors. The headquarters even has a shooting range. Carrying is also permitted at NRA conventions and events, again as long as it complies with relevant law.

Your belief is a myth and a commonly propagated fallacy. Allegations of racism don't alter reality.

You are free to contact the NRA directly and inquire if you so desire.

There are many reasons to criticize the NRA, but they rarely involve hypocrisy when it comes to the ownership and carrying of firearms.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/nraban.asp

http://buzzpo.com/shannon-watts-caught-red-handed-lying-nra/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/21/1172739/-I-Called-the-NRA-Today-Oh-Boy

[Helen Borg]

10. Clearly, an attempt to intimidate free speech and debate.

[GGJohn]

16. If that were true,

then why hasn't it happened at the other colleges that have allowed concealed carry for years?

[Dustlawyer]

19. My kids have had a couple of alerts due to people with guns on campus already, it will be

much worse after this law takes effect.

[GGJohn]

24. But were those by CHL holders?

And why hasn't it gotten much worse at the colleges that allow for CC?

[TipTok]

53. Any moment now...

The streets will run red with blood...

Any moment...

*whistles and taps feet*

Any moment...

[Nitram]

11. Voting with his feet.

I hope others follow his lead.

[2naSalit]

62. +1

But that just means that the fickle stance on education and what can be taught in Texas is slipping further into the abyss of ignorance.

[Turbineguy]

12. Success for the GOP.

The problem with education is that there are too many educators and way too many students. Many of those students (especially the dark-skinned ones) would serve a much more useful purpose to society (a Republican Paradise, that is) as inmates in for-profit prisons.

[Nitram]

13. How many campus tragedies will it take before this law is repealed? nt

[GGJohn]

15. How many campus tragedies have happened at other colleges that allow for

concealed carry?

[Nitram]

18. I didn't know therew were colleges that allowed concealed carrry.

Which colleges in which states? Are there many of them?

[hack89]

21. There are eight states, some dating back decades. Nt

[GGJohn]

22. Here is a breakdown.

RED = Concealed guns allowed by law
GREY = Concealed guns allowed by law, but schools limit locations/who carries
GREEN = Concealed guns on campus prohibited by law
YELLOW = Schools decide weapons policy
ORANGE = Concealed guns allowed only in locked cars in parking lots

[Nitram]

26. Thanks, GGJohn. I had no clue.

I wonder if there are statistics on how many students actually carry on campuses where it is allowed.

[GGJohn]

31. To be fair, probably very few students carry,

you have to be 21 to get a concealed carry license, this is mainly geared towards teachers and staff.

[Nitram]

35. Good point.

And you might lose friends if they know you carry. Of course you'll gain some friends among the gun humping community.

[snort]

44. It would closely correlate to the number of assholes attending.

[Nitram]

69. In Texas that would be above the national mean. nt

[LisaL]

98. That map seems to be outdated.

TX is grey on there.

[GGJohn]

100. Sorry LisaL,

it's the only one I could find, not sure if TX public colleges can limit where CHL holders can limit the carrying of weapons.

[Major Nikon]

29. Here's a pretty good one just a few months ago

This shooting happened at a college that allows for concealed carry, no less by a police firearms class:
http://www.good4utah.com/news/local-utah-state-news-/two-students-injured-in-accidental-shooting-at-uvu

So do you think the proliferation of guns on campuses, which are already some of the safest places NOT to get shot, is going to make people safer or less safe?

Feel free to publish ammosexual hero creme-de-la-dum Wayne LaPierre's talking points and pretend they came from the CDC....again.

[GGJohn]

34. One incident on one campus out of how many that allow for it?

I see you just couldn't resist the sexual reference, what is it with the controller and sexual references?

[TipTok]

54. It's weird right?

Is there any other context where it's normal to constantly talk about the genitals of the opposition?

[GGJohn]

55. Other than the porn industry,

not that I know of.

[enlightenment]

57. How many incidents before it is relevant to discuss the

advisability of this nonsense?

Five? Ten? Fifty?

Or do we go by numbers of dead and wounded? At least three or it doesn't count at all?

I know! How about a point system?
Dead student: five points
Critically wounded and not expected to recover: four points
Wounded but will recover some function: three points
Wounded but will recover fully: two points
Not wounded but emotionally traumatized: one point, but only if their noses don't run while they cry
Professor, Administration, Staff? No points, of course, since it was probably their fault.

Anything under fifty total points is hardly worth mentioning and doesn't count toward 'incidents'.

Sound about right?

[GGJohn]

59. I ask again,

has CC been a problem at the other colleges that allow it?
If not, then why all the hand wringing?

[Nitram]

91. Having been to college, I know the lack of judgement of men that age, particularly when...

...they'v been drinking or getting high. I just don't see the mixing with guns. But, hey, we're Americans. We don't use commons sense until too many have died. If then. I'd rather not be in a position to say "I told you so" when it turns out I was right." A tragedy waiting to happen.

[Skittles]

89. please

gun humpers would not care, any more than they care now about constant senseless slaughter - their fear and paranoia TRUMPS ALL

[yellowcanine]

14. Unfortunately UT will likely lose many more faculty and admins over this.

And they will lose top notch prospects who have other options as well. The worst part about it when something like this gets started, it is hard to stop. Academic types hate uncertainty just like business types do and they will go where the climate is more hospitable to their values. Top notch people leave because they have other options. So you lose some of your best people.

[Nitram]

20. I don't think "uncertainty" about the safety of guns in the hands of immature young men...

...is confined to academics and business men. Texas cannot afford the brain drain that their new law could provoke. The fact that the law passed in the first place is evidence that there is insufficient rational thinking going on in that state.

[hack89]

23. Is 21 really immature? Nt

[Nitram]

27. In most cases, yes.

In my experience. I was. My friends were. We did some really dumb stuff. Had a good time, too.

[GGJohn]

58. By the time I was 20,

I was piloting an attack bird in Vietnam, most of the soldiers/Marines in Vietnam hadn't even reached their 21st birthday, yet we were all pretty mature, so I would have to respectfully disagree that most 21 year olds aren't mature.

[yellowcanine]

38. Auto insurance underwriters generally charge higher rates up until age 25.

At least for men. So I think the answer to that is yes at least if you believe car accident risk numbers.

[RKP5637]

37. Exactly, there are many options other than UT, and many IMO will take those options.

It's insanity!

[Calista241]

48. I doubt it

Recruiting for College teaching positions is a VERY cutthroat process, and is extremely competitive, incestuous and political. There's a reason there's not a lot of turnover at these positions.

It's very hard to get a job at a major university, and once you have it, people tend to hold onto it forever, often working well into the usual retirement age.

[Helen Borg]

49. But that is part of the plan...

Who wants intellectuals and academics in Texas? You know, they may bring facts and knowledge into the picture.

[Paladin]

66. Are you and your fellow Texas Haters on this thread under the impression....

that Texas is the only state that allows campus carry of firearms? Or that Texas is anywhere close to the first state to allow campus carry? I know it's a great fun to savage the whole fucking state of Texas and its inhabitants (educated liberal Texans like myself included), but try practicing what you preach---educate yourself out of utter ignorance and rank prejudice before you spew something that makes you look so ill-informed.

[GGJohn]

76. Thank you Paladin,

I know you and I rarely agree on firearm issues, but on this I totally agree with you.
The bigots in this thread slamming Texans are clueless about Texas.

[47of74]

25. I don't blame him.

Gotta do what ya gotta do.

[RKP5637]

30. A very wise person to get the hell out of Texas. n/t

[TipTok]

51. Buh bye...

What a baby...

[rladdi]

56. But for Republicans it not about getting an education, they are against

educated people, they are looking for slaves, those who only follow and not use their brain power. The GOP wins on slave votes and LIES.

[Judi Lynn]

101. Good to see your post. You are exactly right. n/t

[hamsterjill]

60. Sad, but necessary.

I'm sorry that UT students will be denied the education that they should be receiving from good teachers like Professor Steiner, but I totally support his desire to leave. It's ludicrous that guns should have any place in a learning environment.

The very idea that teachers and professors should have to be concerned about what they teach (as illustrated in an article released earlier this week), is sheer madness. We, as a society, cannot be expected to tip toe through life to avoid igniting some crazy person's ire and having that person react with a gun. The solution is to make it IMPOSSIBLE for that crazy person to ever get a gun (or any weapon) in the first place.

Ugh! I'm a lifelong Texan and I don't recognize my state any more. Please, please, please know that not all Texans are idiots!

[sarisataka]

64. Sorry hamsterjill

but anti-gun folks have written off Texas-

I'm punishing my home state too. I won't go there for anything but urgent family business anymore. I try not to buy Texas made products. I bad mouth the place as a shithole of violence and racism to anyone who asks me what it's like being from there.

Texas is on its way to pariah status. It's Mexico with shittier food and meaner people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1352003

[hamsterjill]

65. I honestly don't blame them.

But you've got to realize that it's heartbreaking for some of us here. I'm a sixth generation Texan. The idiots that run the state these days are NOT real Texans. Most of them moved here in the early 80's after they had fucked up the places they lived before.

I appreciate your sentiment. Hope you have a good weekend!

[SpankMe]

61. Let's hope this is becomes a trend.

Whenever a red state implements some crazy law like this, I always hope it will result in people, companies, everything, leaving the state. The brain-drain and economic-drain would turn them into little third-world fiefdoms and they'd get what they deserve.

When I was in college (Univ of AZ, early 80's) I witnessed on several occasions some pretty uncomfortable confrontations between students and profs that escalated to near physical confrontation. In each of these four events, it was the student who was the initiator of the confrontation.

The students were usually upset about a grade they got, or a critique on a paper that they thought wasn't fair. The profs were doing their jobs and were calm and intellectual about it. But, the students (all white males, by the way) were indignant and agitated to an extent that I figured they had some emotional or mental issues lying beneath.

If these guys had concealed guns on them during these emotional explosions, I could see them coming out of their holsters and being brandished, if not used. (In one of the four times I witnessed a confrontation, the student threw a book toward the front of the room.)

If a kid really wants to bring a gun to class and do a prof in, nothing's going to stop him. But, disallowing concealed carry in college classrooms could help in keeping a weapon out of an emergent confrontation.

[raccoon]

93. A well thought out post. Thank you. nt

[jalan48]

67. Texas-America's own Petri dish of Fascist ideas.

[beevul]

70. Some delicate flowers are more delicate than other delicate flowers...

Some delicate flowers are more delicate than other delicate flowers, apparently.

[trillion]

78. Smart guy. Of course being a college Dean they usually are.

[GGJohn]

81. He was already planning to leave,

so this is more of a political statement than an actual reason.

[LisaL]

97. He was approached over the years with job offers, which he declined.

But this one he accepted.

[GGJohn]

99. Probably because it offered better pay, benefits, etc. eom.

[LisaL]

102. Why do you insist that it couldn't be the reasons he listed?

I don't know what goes in his head, but neither do you. He accepted the same level position, so presumably pay and benefits are comparable.

[GGJohn]

103. He was already looking for a new postition, I suspect this was just an exucse and a political

statement, but let me ask you this, and I thank you for being civil, something that others haven't been, if CC on this TX campus is such a problem, why hasn't it been a problem on the other colleges that have allowed for CC for many, many years?

[LisaL]

104. Where does it say he was already looking for a new position?

From what he says, people were making him offers over the years which he declined. If he was looking, why did he decline previous offers?

[GGJohn]

105. Perhaps they weren't in a location that was suitable for him?

Maybe this offer was too good to turn down? But you didn't answer my question, so I'll respectfully ask again, if CC is such a problem on this TX campus, then why hasn't it been a problem at the nations other colleges that have allowed for CC for many, many years?

[LisaL]

106. TX law doesn't just allow. It demands state colleges allowed guns.

Thus people who object to guns on campus have no choice if they work for state universities.

[GGJohn]

107. So does Utah and Colorado public colleges, and yet, it hasn't been a problem with them,

so why would TX public colleges be any different?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

95. Wow, he arranged that new job quickly.

Normal folks would have to do job searches, interviews, that sort of stuff. This guy snaps his fingers and he can walk out on a job that he no longer agrees with.

[LisaL]

96. He actually had people approaching him with job offers over the years.

So, yes, it's very different from "normal folks" that have to go out look for jobs.

[pfitz59]

108. Those who forget history....

[link:http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/an-ex-marine-goes-on-a-killing-spree-at-the-university-of-texas|

1966
An ex-Marine goes on a killing spree at the University of Texas

"Charles Whitman takes a stockpile of guns and ammunition to the observatory platform atop a 300-foot tower at the University of Texas and proceeds to shoot 46 people, killing 14 people and wounding 31. A fifteenth died in 2001 because of his injuries. Whitman, who had killed both his wife and mother the night before, was eventually shot to death after courageous Austin police officers, including Ramiro Martinez, charged up the stairs of the tower to subdue the attacker."

Idiots!