Chavez foe leads massive march in Venezuela

[jade3000]

Source: The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Opposition leader Henrique Capriles marched through Venezuela's capital on Sunday accompanied by tens of thousands of supporters in a rally to formally launch his candidacy for the presidency.

Surrounded by supporters waving red, yellow and blue Venezuelans flags, Capriles marched and jogged from a park in eastern Caracas toward the headquarters of the National Elections Council, 6 miles (10 kilometers) away, where he was scheduled to formally register to compete against President Hugo Chavez.

Capriles has vowed to create employment, fight crime and root out corruption, though most polls show him trailing Chavez ahead of the Oct. 7 election.


Read more: http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/chavez-foe-leads-massive-1455523.html

---

Things are intense in Venezuela.

[MADem]

1. The rumor is that Chavez is on strong opiates to control bone pain.

No idea if it's true, but here's a cite: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154072/Chavez-taking-opiate-100-times-stronger-morphine-doctors-predict-die-cancer-months.html

Chavez 'taking opiate 100 times stronger than morphine' as doctors predict he will die of cancer in months
Venezuelan president taking cocktail of drugs
Doctors doubt he will live to see presidential result



Ailing: Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez pictured last month after his latest cancer treatment

Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez’s cancer battle has 'entered its end stage', it was reported today.
Chavez, 57, is not expected to live more than a few months at most, according to Spanish newspaper ABC.
The South American leader is now taking an opiate '100 times stronger than morphine' to relieve the severe pain of the aggressive cancer which has spread to his bones and the side effects of the chemotherapy and radiation.
The drugs are so potent that 'at any moment his body will not be able to tolerate them', according to doctors treating him.

[joshcryer]

3. Eh, you have to admit though the deathwatch isn't nearly as interesting as the electoral stuff.

Hell, Capriles' team doesn't even mention Chavez very often, particularly by name.

[joshcryer]

2. Screenshot:

You can watch the end of the ceremonies here (live now, maybe a couple of hours left if you're lucky): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xio7e2_globovision-en-vivo_news?start=2115

There's also some replay footage at that link.

[unreadierLizard]

4. Beautiful. At least the people, I hope

will finally muster up enough and throw out the dictator.

Though, the Chavez apologists will be here soon to tell you how that's all right wing lies and how Capriles is a right wing tool, even though he's left-leaning like Chavez, except without the dictatorship and absolute power parts.

[joshcryer]

6. LOL, welcome to DU. And, uh, nah, he'll keep the power.

He'll just get rid of the corruption because he's basically a political Chavez as opposed to an incompetent military Chavez. He'll continue much of Chavez's plans, but he'll oust the crony aspects.

[Comrade Grumpy]

11. You mean the dictator who is running for re-election?

You mean the one who allows mass opposition marches?

You mean the one who is the democratically elected president of Venezuela?

Overblown crap is overblown crap.

[pmorlan1]

131. LOL

Yes, it is rather stunning that a supposed dictator would allow a huge opposition march. LOL I guess they just don't make dictators like they used to. LOL I remember when he was first elected they called him a dictator even though he was elected by the people. The only reason they called him a dictator was because he wouldn't let the US run his country. Did you ever notice that any leader that doesn't kiss our ass is called a dictator? It took me a long time to figure that out. I'm happy that some of the younger people here figured it out sooner than I did.

Chavez is certainly not perfect but to call him a dictator is just silly.

[Gregorian]

17. It's nice that we wear our post count on our sleeves.

Now there's one less move involved in finding out who is who, in certain instances.

[harmonicon]

23. Get a fucking clue. (nt)

[frylock]

46. dictators typically allow the opposition to hold large public demonstrations, don't they?

[kemah]

121. Try that in North Korea, China, Syria, Iran,

Wonder what would happen in those countries?

[tkmorris]

60. "Dictator"... You keep using that word

I do not think it means what you think it means.

[yurbud]

96. so Chavez didn't win internationally monitored elections?

[boppers]

101. So did Saddam Hussein.

When you can control who is on the ballot, voting is a mere formality.

[yurbud]

112. so you pretty much have no idea what you're talking about.

[sabrina 1]

115. Let me ask you a serious question.

I have noticed that you comment a lot here, but you appear to have absolutely no knowledge about the topics you choose to comment on.

This comment you just made eg. Saddam Hussein never had any opposition, no international monitoring, he received always, 99% of the vote. He was a dictator, he was OUR dictator so we let him do as he pleased. Reagan eg, vetoed a bill by Congress that refused to send dual purpose chemicals to Saddam Hussein, the vote was unanimous. But Reagan over ruled the Senate and sent them to him anyhow. Reagan also sent him lots of gifts, money, and support. We didn't care about his elections.

Now explain to me what you know about Venezuela's elections, with facts, links etc. and how these two situations even remotely resemble each other.

[boppers]

135. Here's the choices:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Venezuela

I assume you will explain how chemical weapons are related to weapons.

Here's what he does to monitors who disagree with him (non-directly related to elections):
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/09/19/venezuela-rights-idUKN1940239020080919

..and judges are not exempt, if they defy extrajudicial political imprisonment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Maria_Lourdes_Afiuni

[SkyDaddy7]

122. I could not agree more!!

What a beautiful sight to see!

[Odin2005]

5. Fascist blackshirts.

Fuck them.

[unreadierLizard]

7. Why? Because they're against media censorship,

a skyrocketing crime rate, dictatorial controls over their lives and suppression of freedom of speech?

Yes! Damn those fascists!

Oh, we aren't talking about the red fascist in power, Chavez?

[EFerrari]

32. Lmao -- yes, thousands of people in the street

are proof of suppressed free speech.

[boppers]

63. When you aren't allowed to run a TV station, or a newspaper, you have to take to the streets.

That's kind of how it works.

[unkachuck]

66. "That's kind of how it works."

....it doesn't work like that in Syria....

[EFerrari]

68. It doesn't work like that in NYC, as we have seen lately

with the dumb, expensive OWS arrests.

[boppers]

79. If you can control the media, *and* the streets, you have succeeded in gaining total control.

Chavez hasn't extended his rule to the streets.

[EFerrari]

89. Really, this is now just embarrassing.

It's not the leftist governments in Latin America that suppress a vigorous press, lol. No, it's the rightwing nutcases that our government props up, from Mexico to Honduras to Peru and Colombia.

Your tax dollars at work. And, iirc, you argued vigorously here on DU for the brutal coupsters in Honduras, who have now made that country the most lethal one on the continent for journalists. So, it seems a little unusual at this late date for you to suddenly be concerned about freedom of the press.

[boppers]

98. "brutal coupsters in Honduras"

When you defy your congress, your courts, and declare yourself above the law, yeah, you lose my support.

The south has seen enough of the insane behind their leaders' desks.

That doesn't mean their replacements are any better, of course, but "less insane" is (sadly) often the only option.

[Judi Lynn]

91. There are DU'ers who post here who live there NOW, who most clearly don't agree with you.

Here's a very helpful post from DU poster Flanker, with a lot of respectable information:

There is more freedom of speech in Venezuela than in the US

Posted by Flanker in General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007)
Thu Sep 21st 2006, 12:30 PM

I have lived on the latter and currently live in the former, and find the accusations to be the real caricature, when most are either lying (Bolton) or simply don't know....


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Flanker/1

[boppers]

94. Interesting link.

It's amazing how few channels there are.

Or not.

[EFerrari]

67. Oh, baloney. If one of our tv outlets staged a coup in their studios

the whole crew would be in custody that same day.

Please.

[boppers]

77. Well, a fake "coup" might trigger a congressional investigation.

Tell me, when did this happen in the US?

[EFerrari]

85. Red herring. RCTV wasn't shut down even after they facilitated the coup.

The government of Venezuela in its better wisdom simply didn't renew their license.

If ABC broadcast a coup against Obama's government, everyone in the building would be hooded and on a plane to Gitmo before the wrap.

[boppers]

86. Oh, so they were allowed to continue broadcasting then?

Nope.

When did ABC do this?

[EFerrari]

90. boppers, they broadcast for five more years, lol, until their license expired.

And since this information has been posted here about a hundred times, I think I will use the rest of my evening doing something both more productive and more pleasant. Have a good night.

[boppers]

92. So, they got shut down.

[EFerrari]

93. Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs

Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs
Distorting the Venezuelan media story

5/25/07

The story is framed in U.S. news media as a simple matter of censorship: Prominent Venezuelan TV station RCTV is being silenced by the authoritarian government of President Hugo Chávez, who is punishing the station for its political criticism of his government.

According to CNN reporter T.J. Holmes (5/21/07), the issues are easy to understand: RCTV "is going to be shut down, is going to get off the air, because of President Hugo Chávez, not a big fan of it." Dubbing RCTV "a voice of free speech," Holmes explained, "Chávez, in a move that's angered a lot of free-speech groups, is refusing now to renew the license of this television station that has been critical of his government."

Though straighter, a news story by the Associated Press (5/20/07) still maintained the theme that the license denial was based simply on political differences, with reporter Elizabeth Munoz describing RCTV as "a network that has been critical of Chávez."

In a May 14 column, Washington Post deputy editorial page editor Jackson Diehl called the action an attempt to silence opponents and more "proof" that Chávez is a "dictator." Wrote Diehl, "Chávez has made clear that his problem with [RCTV owner Marcel] Granier and RCTV is political."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3107

[boppers]

95. If you do not support speech which seeks to undermine your government, you are a tyrant.

How hard is that to comprehend?

[Judi Lynn]

97. Love the last paragraph from this journalists' organization:

The RCTV case is not about censorship of political opinion. It is about the government, through a flawed process, declining to renew a broadcast license to a company that would not get a license in other democracies, including the United States. In fact, it is frankly amazing that this company has been allowed to broadcast for 5 years after the coup, and that the Chávez government waited until its license expired to end its use of the public airwaves.

Thanks for posting this.

[boppers]

99. "allowed to broadcast"

Yup.

Speech is not a basic freedom, it's what the government "allows".

[joshcryer]

87. Venevisión hosted the coupsters! They still have their license!

Oh my god! It's trotted out every fucking damn time! Fuck!

[Judi Lynn]

69. You owe it to yourself to keep up on this information by doing your own reading.

You can't hope to engage people in conversation when you're attempting to bait them with bogus claims.

Jump right in there and start doing your homework, read the material that's been here all along, start paying attention to it, start thinking about it, and look for the real answers.

It's really sad thinking you attempt to pull people over to respond to your claims when your claims are not authentic, nor even close to representing the truth.

Where were you when DU'ers posted page after page after page on these topics including all the references you could have used to learn about the facts, anyway?

All the information still is there waiting for you to learn it, in order to know what you could have known already, long ago. No time like the present.

[boppers]

75. Show me where any TV station could broadcast anything they wanted, and not carry official programs.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[Judi Lynn]

78. No, get off your ass and do your own work. I'll wait. n/t

[boppers]

80. Alo Presidente!

State mandated propaganda, straight out of Orwell.

[sabrina 1]

114. Show me a station in the US that hosts anyone who led or participated in an attempt to take down

this government? I will wait.

One of Chavez's big mistakes, imo, was being way too lenient with those who committed treason. Those stations SHOULD have been shut down after the coup. No station hosting traitors should ever been given a license.

Also, giving amnesty to the traitors was a mistake imo. Here they would have received the death penalty. While I admire his commitment to total democracy, I believe the Government's leniency with those who attempted to destroy the duly elected government should all have been arrested and spent a long time in jail. As I said, here they would have received the death penalty. And we have the gall to criticize that society, which is way more civilized than we are.

I'll wait for your information on how traitors who run radio stations would be treated here.

[ieoeja]

127. No. We would also let them off in the name of unity.

Our gov't did nothing about the 1933 coup attempt.

Nothing was done to Nixon after he negotiated with North Vietnam behind LBJ's back.

Nothing was done to Reagan after he bribed Iran to keep the hostages until he was sworn in.

In this regards Chavez pursued the same course that the US has always followed by refusing to fan the flames.

[sabrina 1]

140. Yes, we let powerful people off. Reagan was a President, Nixon was a president.

But if an ordinary citizen had tried to overthrow either of them, what do you think would have happened to that person?

This analogy doesn't work.

[Bacchus4.0]

128. Chavez participated in a coup, so obviously he is a traitor too correct?

are you aware of any broadcast media in the US who hosted those who attempted to overthrow an administration? there has been no such thing so you can't ask for info on something that never existed.

and as JoshCryer has repeatedly stated it was Venevision that hosted the coup leaders and they retained their license since they changed their programming. RCTV would not so they were denied renewal of their broadcast license.

[sabrina 1]

133. Our Founding Fathers engaged in a coup. Sometimes a revolution is justified. Sometimes it is not.

The winners become heroes, but if they lose, they are traitors and often are put to death. The coup against Chavez backed by the CIA and the Bush administration as so many S. American coups have been, such as the most recent one in Honduras, was stopped by the people. An amazing story. I guess South Americans have had enough of US backed coups of the leaders they choose. So that time they went out and stood up against it and it failed.

Do you know why Chavez participated in that coup?

[boppers]

134. G Gordon Liddy gets air time all the time.

So does Ollie North. Rush Limbaugh gets TV *and* Radio.

[sabrina 1]

139. None of them was involved in a coup against a sitting president, were they?

I asked what would happen to someone here who was involved in a coup against the President?

The radical right wing 'media' in Venezuela you are defending were involved in plotting to oust a democratically elected president, and were involved in trying to incite an uprising against their government.

The Venezuelan Government would have been perfectly within its right to shut those traitors down, but they did not. In fact, Chavez did something we will never see here, he gave amnesty to many of those who plotted against him. But nasty, evil, right wingers that they are, they don't seem to have been very grateful.

Why do you support the far right in Venezuela btw? They are not any different to the far right here. Strange how suddenly Democrats here in the US have surfaced over the past few years supporting the far right in Venezuela. It's a phenomenon many people have commented on.

[joshcryer]

149. Venevision engineered the coup, they hosted the coupsters, they had them denouncing...

...Chavez right their in their own studios.

Why do they get a pass?

That's what's so annoying about this. RCTV was just a crap channel that refused to change its programming, they didn't actually engineer shit. But they get the blame. It's convenient to pretend that RCTV is more culpable than Venevision, but it's illogical to the extreme.

[sabrina 1]

125. Lol, I think you better look into the background of this guy.

He's just what Venezeula needs to take it back to old days when oligarchs owned 80% of everything and the people were kept in poverty. His family owns part of the rightwing media. I mean it would be like Bill O'Reilly's kid running for president here. Not to mention the criminal charges against him.

Hopefully the people will be smart enough not to return to the old days when 80% of them were living in poverty and illiterate. Amazing that anyone here on the left would cheer for the equivalent of a Faux candidate for the presidency.

[ChangoLoa]

145. Yes, we know, Capriles is a "fag", a zionist, a fascist, etc.

After all, his grandmother was jewish and he's not even married. Just like our chavista "progressive" ministers and "journalists" accused him.

yawn... yawn

How progressive of the hardcore chavista, right?
At least some "progressive" DUers agree with them.

BTW, the media owned by (a distant branch of) the Capriles family is considered to be left leaning and mildly chavista. Their newspaper "Ultimas Noticias", is the reference for moderate chavistas in Venezuela.

- Where do you get so much made up info? -

[joshcryer]

8. Not a fan of Capriles I see.

[ChangoLoa]

12. LOL... you're kidding

Venezuela, the country of 20 revolutions, the first people in the world with Haiti to rise up against imperialism, the first state that abolished death penalty in its constitution, one of the firsts that abolished slavery and the biggest refuge for leftists in Latin America during the years of Plan Condor............. has around half of its population who suddenly became "fascist blackshirts".

[apocalypsehow]

15. Don't trouble the Saint Hugo Fan Club with facts - it just makes them cranky. n/t.

[boppers]

64. "the first people in the world with Haiti to rise up against imperialism"

Ha.

Does the number 1776 upset you for some reason? Venezuela didn't even declare its independence until 1811.

[ChangoLoa]

147. It sure does... but I don't see that date the way you see it.

The Europeans living in America were tired of taxes and just replaced British imperialism. A colonial rule without the British in a segregated society. So... it doesn't really qualify as an "anti-imperialist" act in my understanding of History. The best proof for that is the imperialist power they finally elaborated after freeing themselves from the crown.

[boppers]

150. When would you date them becoming an "imperialist power"?

What are your criteria?

[naaman fletcher]

28. All of them?

Just curious, if you are someone who is doesn't like Chavez, does that mean that by definition you are a fascist?

[bitchkitty]

137. When you repeat corporatist talking points, then...

walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

[naaman fletcher]

138. What do you mean?

It was stated that all of the people in a massive protest were fascists.

[apocalypsehow]

9. Beautiful picture of brave men and women standing up to tyranny. May their cause triumph. n/t.

[Comrade Grumpy]

13. They're going to "stand up to tyranny" by voting.

Overblown crap is overblown crap.

[apocalypsehow]

16. Yes, they are - if Chavez allows a fair vote. Every election to date he's been in he's stolen votes,

engaged in massive fraud. The best expert guess is that Chavez has never been legitimately elected to office even once, though that hasn't stopped him from retaining power. Hopefully this time a fair election will turn him out of office.

[Comrade Grumpy]

18. The people who actually monitored elections there don't agree with you.

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/publications/election_reports.html#venezuela

[apocalypsehow]

19. Oh yes they do - and you well know it. But nice try. n/t.

[Comrade Grumpy]

21. You provide no evidence. And I don't know who "Hannah" is.

I provided some evidence. What have you got, other than cheap shot attacks?

[apocalypsehow]

70. Evidence was provided at your OWN LINK - which you apparently failed to examine before posting.

And you know precisely who "Hannah" is, Hanna. Again: welcome back.

[apocalypsehow]

20. And BTW, Hannah, welcome back.

[Comrade Grumpy]

41. I guess that craptastic post was enough to shame even you.

Good riddance.

[apocalypsehow]

73. Well, wrong again Hannah. But it's nice to see you back on the site, even if you are predictably a

coddler of Dictators and corrupt Third-world regimes - still.

[Comrade Grumpy]

107. Come back when you grow up.

[Judi Lynn]

22. Nor do the people at the National Lawyers Guild

March 5, 2012
NLG election monitoring delegation finds Venezuelan primaries free and fair

Gespass and Johnson note that, unlike prior election monitoring experiences, Venezuela's election system is "advanced by any standard," and that Venezuela has an independent branch of government, the CNE, whose purpose is to run elections.

The report reviewed the elections process, concluding that "the overriding question is whether people can have confidence that problems encountered did not compromise the final result. For these elections, we have no doubt that test is met..."

The complete report is available here for download. Founded in 1937 as an alternative to the American Bar Association, which did not admit people of color, the National Lawyers Guild is the oldest and largest public interest/human rights bar organization in the United States. Its headquarters are in New York and it has chapters in every state.

More:
http://www.nlginternational.org/news/article.php?nid=468

[naaman fletcher]

29. Now, I do think Chavez was legitimatley elected and reelected,

but the NLG is not some sort of non-partisan group. In fact it's founders were all CPUSA members or supporters.

[pa28]

25. Now you've done it.

You're going to fuck up a perfectly good Chavez hatefest with your pesky facts.

[sabrina 1]

49. Don't worry, facts never interfere with a good Venezuela hate fest!

After all, that is OUR oil Chavez is using to diminish poverty and illiteracy in Venezuela, how dare he!

[joshcryer]

84. Venezuela's elections are the cleanest in the hemisphere. It's the pre-vote purges that...

...are the real issue.

For instance, 20k some American-Venezuelans' have to now drive almost a thousand miles to vote thanks to the intentional and malicious closure of the Miami consulate.

[bvar22]

39. The elections in Venezuela are Transparent, Verifiable, and monitored by Internatioonal agencies,

which means the elections in Venezuela are FAR more open than they are in the USA.
We have NONE of those cross checks here.

Essentially, Americans are forced to trust the owners of the Private, Secret BBV voting machines when "they" tell us who "WON",
and the leadership of neither Political Party seems to have the slightest inclination to change our system to one which is more like Venezuela's...
Transparent and Verifiable.

[apocalypsehow]

103. The elections in Venezuela have been stolen since Chavz first "won" - this is proven fact, period.

Please try again.

[Judi Lynn]

108. There are excellent sources already linked at D.U. regarding statements by international monitors,

including that organization created by our own Democratic former President Jimmy Carter.

What do you have to share which shows they are lying? We've never seen ONE source more credible than the legitimate election monitors who have monitored every election from the beginning.

[bvar22]

126. The elections in Venezuela have been stolen since Chavz first "won" - this is proven fact, period.

...because YOU say so?


I think I'll trust the international observers.

I find it hilarious that someone who lives in the USA, dominated by BBV with 'secret" code
is complaining about the elections in Venezuela.
Better look to the LOG in your own eye.

VIVA Democracy!!!
I pray we get some here soon!

[frylock]

129. yet somehow you can't even manage to pull a link outta your ass to prove your assertions..

funny, that.

[sabrina 1]

48. ??

Tell that to the international monitors who have declared Venezuela's elections to be among the cleanest they have observed. Ours should be so clean.

Tell it to Jimmy Carter.

I see all those millions of dollars spent on Anti-Venezuela remaining a country free from the influences of the Global Corporations is working, even here.

Thank you Wikileaks for the information as to where all this anti-the-people-of-Venezuela comes from.

Once a country is sitting on our oil, you can count on the Global Powers doing all in their power to make sure they are not in control of their own government.

What we need in Ven. is another puppet government, like all the others we used to have in the past in S. America.

Just cannot take the people of these countries controlling their own destinies. We have to interfere and do it for them, poor things.

[boppers]

65. Once the names are on the ballots, the elections have been fair by all accounts I've read.

Now, as to who can *be* on the ballot, that's another matter, and often rife with corruption and cronyism, regardless of the venue.

[pa28]

27. They must be brave because tyrants smash the opposition with tanks and guns.

But where are the tanks and guns?

[naaman fletcher]

30. Is that the new definition of tyrant?

Just checking. Is it possible to be a tyrant without smashing opposition with tanks and guns?

[pa28]

43. Calling Chavez a dictator and tyrant is an extraordinary claim.

The burden of proof rests on those who use those labels.

[naaman fletcher]

45. yes I agree

Will you please answer the question I asked though?

[Judi Lynn]

35. If he'd been a tyrant, he would have zapped them when they started violent protests,

the main proponent, Roberto Alonso, Cuban "exile," former CIA now hiding out in Kendall, Florida.

He has promoted the practise of "Guarimba," which is only violent protest. Period.

He owned a ranch where over 100 Colombian former solders, paras, citizens were living in quanset huts, lured there to work for pay in eliminating Hugo Chavez.

He took off and dived directly into South Florida, former home of the country's largest CIA base, and current base of the Southern Command.

[center]

His Grace, Roberto Alonso.[/center]

[ChangoLoa]

47. A 100 18 year olds were going to kill Chavez?

Interesting to note that they were graced almost immediately and sent back to Colombia.

BTW, the corrupt, narco, hardcore chavista, former head of the Supreme Court who fled to Costa Rica and then to the US - Eladio Aponte Aponte - declared it was a made up case.

I'm really not sure about what happened there, but it seems quite obvious that the government's version is strange. Maybe it's true that the people who were trying to organize the assassination were that much idiotic and naive, since they wanted to kill the president in such a ridiculous, impossible, absurd manner. But I doubt it. Time will probably tell.

[Judi Lynn]

62. Whoever said the paramilitaries were 18 years old? Some of them were former Colombian soldiers.

It's so perplexing you pull ideas like that from outta somewhere, but it doesn't connect to anything I've ever heard.


The Venezuelan elite imports soldiers
by Marta Harnecker
May 23, 2004

If anything has become clear following the discovery of an incursion of a significantly large paramilitary group into the country, it is that the 'anti-Bolivarian and anti-Venezuelan oligarchy and its masters in the north' have not been able to recruit Venezuelan soldiers for their subversive objectives and 'have been forced to recruit them in another country,' as expressed President Chavez in front of tens of thousands of people, who gathered in Caracas this past Sunday, May 16th, to demonstrate their rejection of paramilitary activity and to express their support for peace.
(snip)

A week earlier, on the 9th of May, on the outskirts of Caracas, a paramilitary force was discovered, dressed in field uniforms. Later, more were found, raising the total to 130, leaving open the possibility that there are still more in the country. The three Colombian paramilitary leaders of the group are members of the Autonomous Self-Defense Forces (AUC) in Northern Santander state in Colombia.

Some of the captured Colombian fighters have a long history as members of paramilitary forces. Others are reservists of the Colombian army and yet others were specifically recruited for the task in Venezuela and were surely tricked. Among these there are several who are minors.

A colonel of the Venezuelan air force was also detained, as well as seven officers of the National Guard. Among those implicated in the plot is a group of civilians headed by the Cuban Roberto Alonso, creator of the 'guarimbas,'<1> and Gustavo Quintero Machado, a Venezuelan, both who are currently wanted by the Venezuelan justice system.
(snip/...)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5579


[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
VENEZUELA: 130 detained in paramilitary plot
Wednesday, November 17, 1993 - 11:00

CARACAS — According to Venezuelan vice-president Jose Vicente Rangel, 130 individuals have been detained after a group of 70 Colombian paramilitary on May 9. Several dozen people have been presented before military judges, including 13 men captured last Thursday.

The paramilitary group was concentrated at a farm belonging to opposition activist Robert Alonso in the outskirts of Caracas. According to testimonies by some of the detainees, the paramilitary group was training in preparation for attacks on Venezuelan military bases and for a coup d'etat against the government of President Hugo Chavez.

While oppositionist Robert Alonso is being sought by authorities, retired army general Uson Ramirez was detained yesterday morning. Ramirez is thought to have provided help to the paramilitary group. The general was part of a group of high ranking officers who rebelled against the Chavez government during the coup d'etat in April 2002. Seven military officers have been detained in connection with the paramilitaries.

~snip~
Even though Venezuela has signed all international anti-terrorism treaties, no anti-terror law exists in the country. A draft for a local anti-terrorism law was introduced last year by the executive for discussion and approval at the National Assembly. Lawmakers from political parties that support the government have accused the opposition of blocking the discussion, as several opposition activists have been charged with crimes that might be classified as terrorism, including the bombing of the Colombian Consulate and Spanish Embassy offices in Caracas last year.

More:
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/29940

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
War on Hugo Chávez
An outlaw and former spook takes on the Venezuelan dictator
By Janine Zeitlin
Published on October 10, 2007 at 10:41am

~snip~
Robert dubs the plan that caused him to flee his homeland La Guarimba, and says it's nonviolent. But the last time he made his pitch for revolt — in 2004 — at least 13 people were killed and more than 100 were wounded in clashes. "If you don't follow the instructions, it's not my fault.... When you commit yourself to something, you have to quemar los barcos, burn the ships. There's no way out," says the 57-year-old with a shock of white hair and an ample belly. "We're at war"

~snip~
At some point in April 2004, he met with other activists calling themselves the "Brigade Daktari." (A Venezuelan flag hangs on his home office wall with about 50 signatures from this mysterious meeting.) Then he left for Colombia. Carrying a GPS, Alonso says, he navigated the jungle between the two countries and then hopped a bus to Bogotá. He took a plane to Miami in late April ...

Alonso looks like a retiree who stopped by for an afternoon cafecito. He's wearing blue sweatpants, tan sandals, and a turquoise T-shirt. Clamor from the espresso machine and blenders fills the room as a man in a button-down shirt carrying a briefcase strides through the bakery doors and beelines for the table. He silently drops a manila folder before Alonso.

The mystery man is Marlon Gutiérrez, a 45-year-old former Nicaraguan Contra. Alonso takes some papers from the folder and looks them over. They are bylaws for their new group, Fundación Interamericana por la Democracia, which will organize Guarimba resistance movements in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Venezuela ...

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-10-11/news/war-on-hugo-ch-aacute-vez/
Also posted: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/struggle4progress/60

[center]

Colombian paramilitary barracks on Alonso's ranch

[/center]
Published on Monday, May 17,
by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

President Hugo Chavez announced his government would establish "people's militias" to counter what he called foreign interference after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries Caracas claims was financed by Washington.

Chavez also said he would boost the strength of Venezuela's armed forces as part of a new "anti-imperialist" phase for his government.

"Each and every Venezuelan man and woman must consider themselves a soldier," said Chavez.

"Let the organization of a popular and military orientation begin from today."

The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm

[center][/center]

12.30pm update
Colombian paramilitaries arrested in Venezuela
Jeremy Lennard and agencies
Monday May 10, 2004

Venezuelan police have arrested more than 70 Colombian paramilitary fighters who were allegedly plotting to strike against the government in Caracas, according to the country's president, Hugo Chávez.
Opposition leaders, however, were quick to dismiss the president's claim, calling the raids on a farm less than 10 miles from the capital a ruse to divert attention from their efforts to oust Mr Chávez in a recall vote.

During his weekly radio and TV broadcast, Hello Mr President, Mr Chávez said that 53 paramilitary fighters were arrested at the farm early on Sunday and another 24 were picked up after fleeing into the countryside.
The country's security forces were uncovering additional clues and searching for more suspects, he said, adding that the arrests were proof of a conspiracy against his government involving Cuban and Venezuelan exiles in Florida and neighbouring Colombia.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/10/venezuela.jeremylennard

[ChangoLoa]

146. Right, there were like 2 or 3 adults with them... LOL. Why were they sent back to their homes...

without even a trial??

They want to assassinate the Greatest Leader in our History, the mind of the Revolution... and they are able to leave the country without a trial

Believe whatever you want to, but you don't kill a President that way. Should be obvious.

Concerning the complot theory that appeared after the declarations of Aponte Aponte, it's easy to verify. It was even posted here (the whole interview of Chavez's former star, head of the Supreme Court). Do you want me to get it for you here or your memory recalled it?

[joshcryer]

82. Yes, given the Tascón List it is very brave of these people to show support for Capriles.

Given the political recriminations if he loses.

[joshcryer]

81. It will.

[leveymg]

10. I see the Regime Change Booster Club is in session today.

Guess you guys will be marching between the Rotaries and the Shriners in this year's 4th of July Day Parade?

Gonna love the fireworks display they have planned this year! Have a Margarita at the Caracas Hilton poolside bar, on me.

[ChangoLoa]

14. Caracus?! We surely can trust your opinion on Vunuzuela, right?

[Triloon]

24. shriners?

I didn't see any Shriners or Rotary on the streets of Caracas today. Just an enormous crowd expressing their democratic will. The club monkeys in black armor didnt come out to stop them, and the military didn't open up with machine guns and mortars. No mercenaries on camel back, and no shabiha. I don't know about the fine differences between candidates but I'm happy to let the Venezuelans figure that out and congratulate them on the big demonstration.

[Judi Lynn]

26. For a good time see a pro-Chavez demonstration. It'll make your day.

[center]





[/center]

[naaman fletcher]

31. How do you know its a good time?

You have never been anywhere in latin america.

[EFerrari]

33. Do you have anything to add to this thread

besides attacks on other posters?

[naaman fletcher]

37. yes

I have asked people to back up assertions, as any person interested in the truth would. I have noticed, however, that you have added nothing.

[Comrade Grumpy]

40. Really? You're challenging her assertion that it was "a good time?"

I don't know, I wasn't there, maybe somebody had a bad time. But it seems a silly point to argue.

[naaman fletcher]

42. If you read the thread

you will see that I have made other posts. I was asked about if I had anything else to do with the thread.

I do, however, think it worth noting that a certain poster in fact has no firsthand knowledge of Latin America at all while attacking people who do.

[EFerrari]

58. I don't understand why people think that is an argument for anything.

None of the Latinists I know have ever seen an ancient Roman. None of my anthropologist friends have ever shared a meal with Handy Man. I'm a Shakespearean and I never met the guy.

In classrooms all around the world, every day students study things that are not physically present. We call that "education" and normally consider it a good thing.

[Zorro]

59. It's an argument that direct personal experience may be better qualified and more insightful

than just reading about events on the internet.

Don't know why that's so hard a concept to grasp.

[sabrina 1]

142. You mean like the OP. But I thought you didn't have to be there to

know what a great time they were having?? I agree with you, people need to be there. My friends in Venezuela were at many of those rallies, they blogged to us eg, when they were lining up to vote for Chavez I remember, taking questions from us to ask the people who were nearby. Everyone was ecstatic to be able to vote for him that day. He spoke to one elderly woman who wanted him to tell us that she had never learned to read and she was holding a book in her hand. She said that Chavez had promised to focus on education when he first ran for office and not just for children, for everyone. She said he kept that promise. She learned to read and, my friend, Vino, told us, she had tears in her eyes because she had learned so much and realized that she, a woman, (Chavez has done so much more there, than our politicians here for women's rights) needed to be involved in politics. That all her life she had been told she did not need to bother with politics.

I felt like we were there with them, it was a very exciting day. He won, of course because the people wanted him as their president.

It is none of our business what other countries do but for far too long our government has supported the worst dictators in the world, and would do so again in South American if they could. The problem for them now is young people here know a lot more than they did in the past. Most Americans had no idea of what was going in S. America, our secret wars, the torture programs, but they are finding out and they do not like it at all.

The rich oligarchs hate Chavez because now they have share Venezuela's resources with the rest of the people. It is so obvious who hates him and why and thank to Wikileaks we know a lot more about where all the negative propaganda is coming from. When you have to pay to get your 'message' not the facts, the 'message' you are generally lying.

[naaman fletcher]

120. So,

Your travels haven't given you different perspectives on things? I can tell you for sure that my travels to latin america and Africa, and not mostly the Balkans have totally changed my worldview.

Someone who went to Venezuela and met and interacted with people would probably come to the realization that not everyone who is opposed to Chavez is a fascist, for example.

[EFerrari]

123. No, I didn't say that travel isn't educative.

But it isn't a substitute for learning to think well.

And since Judi Lynn doesn't hold the opinion in question, your example doesn't obtain.

[naaman fletcher]

124. Perhaps,

one learns best from education, learning to think well, AND travel.

[ChangoLoa]

143. You're confusing History with current affairs

There's a different time for both. But it's true that this time gap is quite contrary to the typical political chapel concept of making "ready-to-wear" History out of present events.

[EFerrari]

148. Not really. I'm in San Jose and keep up with Cairo very nicely

thanks to a large network there. I don't have to be in Cairo to do that.

[sabrina 1]

51. Shhhh, you're ruining the thread, Judy Lynn! Lol!

If only he had been willing to hand over control of Venezuela's oil to the Global Oil Cartels. He would be a hero, no matter how much he tortured and abused his population.

Instead, he spends Venezuela's resources on the people of Venezuela.

[Judi Lynn]

76. They loved things just as they were when Vene. Pres. Carlos Andres Perez ordered his military,

after he ordered his police, and many walked out, to shoot directly into crowds of people protesting after he raised the cost of their heating oil, transportation to their jobs, grocery stores, etc., etc.

His massacre of Venezuelan citizens became known as "El Caracazo." It was because of him the people decided they had to do everything possible to keep a scum like him from getting elected ever again.

The oligarchy and the U.S. gummint just LOVED that evil, murdering asshole, who only enriched his fellow oligarchs, and enriched himself so much he was impeached, in the end. The slimy Venezuelan elitists STILL loved him to the minute he keeled over due to excessive yuckiness.

[sabrina 1]

100. So much ignorance of the history of South America in this country and of the role of the US in

the horrendous crimes against humanity that were perpetrated there against the people. If we were truly the democracy we claim to be, Chavez would have our full backing for what he has tried to do to restore his country to the people.

The people here are kept deliberately ignorant, otherwise a whole lot more of them would never support the role this country has played in the tragic history of South America. Of course there were the collaborators who are still there, waiting to do the bidding of the Global Corporations again. I just hope and pray it does not happen.

[boppers]

104. Chavez already went to prison once for a murderous conspiracy.

I cannot ever support that.

Maybe you can.

[sabrina 1]

116. Well then I guess you don't support the Founding Fathers of this country either. They would have

been hanged for treason had they been caught. I bet you didn't know that or you would never have supported this country, founded as it was on a bloody revolution. Now you can adjust your thinking on this country and how it came about and from now on I am certain you will not be so proud of it.

[boppers]

136. The US founding fathers tried a military coup?

Yeah, I was not taught that in history class. It was a bloody revolution, but it created a government that was decidedly *anti*-militarism.

Things have changed a bit.

[Judi Lynn]

151. That's not the way the Venezuelan people viewed that coup attempt.

From a very quick search:

~snip~
1992 Venezuelan Coup D’état

In February of 1992, then again in November of the same year, lieutenant colonel Hugo Chávez along with about 12,000 men endeavored to overthrow the Carlos Andrés Pérez government. The coup was a failure and Chávez was imprisoned for two years. Though fruitless in his attempt to seize power, in Hugo Chávez, Venezuela had a new national hero. The coup bolstered Chávez’ popularity and ultimately set the stage for his eventual presidency.

2002 Venezuelan Coup D’état

Lasting a little over two days, the 2002 attempt to overthrow the Chávez government was an utter failure. What it did succeed in, however, was catapulting Chávez into the international spotlight.

More: Hugo Chávez: Rise of the Venezuelan President | Suite101.com http://suite101.com/article/hugo-chvez-a152245#ixzz1xjezwwZT

Right-wingers always overlook the man they attempted to overturn had forced his military to commit the hideous "El Caracazo" massacre, which became the turning point for Venezuelan righteous people who realized they could never go back again to conditions which would allow something like that to happen.

Also right-wingers also neglect mentioning he was pardoned by the Venezuelan President who succeeded the criminal, impeached former President Carlos Andres Perez, who lived with his mistress in Miami, like all the other hideous clowns from the Americas who are unloved by their people after their abuses.

[boppers]

152. I'm glad they all have only one opinion, that makes things easier.

I'm sad that the Caracazo has become a political game, a reprehensible exploitation of death. Chavez was so upset by it that he waited.... for 3 years.... to claim he cared about it and had to do something. Which, of course, involved the killing of more people. He was so horrified by it that he even hired one of the ring leaders to be a defense minister for him, and then (of course) the charges against the ringleader got dismissed.

Not impressed.

[boppers]

102. Uniformed followers freak me the fuck out.

Guess why.

[Judi Lynn]

110. Oh, yeah. For sure. They're just the worst. Go, Chiefs!

[center]?1315846090



[/center]

[sabrina 1]

50. Good for Chavez for allowing that. If it were to happen here in the land of the free

there would have been robo cops armed to the teeth out, arresting and beating up the demonstrators.

Actually it has. You cannot demonstrate freely and peacefully in the US without this kind of thing happening.

[Judi Lynn]

83. Don't forget those dandy wooden dowels they sometimes like to use on U.S. citizens.

Someone posted this one here years ago right after she was hit:

[center]

I guess they pick them up and re-use them after they've wiped someone out.



Another citizen who exercised his
first amendment rights for a
non-right-wing cause.



Everyone gets into the act. Remember this one?
It's the Republican spokesman who stepped on
the head of a Democratic protester who attempted
to express her First Amendment Rights.[/center]

[joshcryer]

88. The cops tend to crack down on anti-political movement here.

Obama had almost 3 million at his inauguration.

[EFerrari]

34. I always thought it was a little creepy that people register here

to bash Chavez but to each, his own.

[dipsydoodle]

36. Its to keep themselves occupied

on odd occasions during their otherwise meaningless little lives.

Also stops them from going blind too soon.

[naaman fletcher]

38. Who has registered here to bash chavez?

Are you saying that certain people only post on Chavez bashing threads?

It is easy to look up people's posting history. Surely you have done so and can tell us who you are talking about. I wouldn't believe for as second that you just made up a bogus argument, so please tell us who has registered here just to bash Chavez.

[EFerrari]

55. Actually, I was flashing on the last referendum

and how in the week or so before the vote, we got all kinds of anti-Chavez trolls here. It was bizarre. You'd think there would be a more appropriate forum for them to disrupt.

And since you ask, yes, there are posters here who pretty much only post in Chavez threads to rehearse how much they dislike him. But, that isn't against DU rules.

[naaman fletcher]

118. Thanks

I wasn't around here the last time.

[Odin2005]

44. Oh, good catch!

[sabrina 1]

52. True, but as you say, to each their own.

[ChangoLoa]

53. You want to support the view that anyone disagreeing with Chavez is a fascist and a tool of imperial

oppression, that's your choice.

But for what it's worth, I know dozens of people who were in today's march and not a single one of them is rich, defines himself as a right-winger, or supports any kind of foreign intervention in our country. In fact, most of them are underpaid public teachers, low-middle class, define themselves as "socialists" or "socio-democrats", and see the US as one of the most reactionary countries in the world. For what it's worth...

[naaman fletcher]

54. He won't

Eferrari shows up every now and then to issue innuendo about people and then disappears as soon as he is challenged.

[EFerrari]

57. That's "she".

And of course I can't support the view that anyone who disagrees with Chavez is a fascist but, that doesn't preclude fascists from being in the opposition. We've seen them on film calling their attempted coup "democracy". They didn't transport themselves to a different planet.

[naaman fletcher]

119. I apologize

Although I have not gotten it from you, there are posters here who it does seem believe that if you are against certain leftwing politicians that you are certainly a Fascist.

[AJTheMan]

56. Chavez is pretty popular in Venezuela. I don't see him being ousted.

[boppers]

72. Losing an election isn't being "ousted".

He's pretty much dead, anyways, what remains to be seen is how his cult of personality deals with losing him.

[killbotfactory]

61. This kind of stuff always happens under dictatorships. nt

[EFerrari]

71. :)

[boppers]

105. China, Egypt, Syria, United States.....

Not sure what your point is.

[killbotfactory]

106. And the difference is...

This march didn't end in state sanctioned violence.

Damn dictatorships.

[boppers]

109. If I was to concoct a subject state...

Every few years, there could be a "mass movement", to change the state, with somebody who only had minor policy differences. Throw out a lot of slogans, some feel-good-mean-nothing-PR, so people thought things would change are appeased. Heck, use "change" as a slogan.

Sound familiar?

Keep the systems the same, but offer the masses the illusion of revolution.

Chavez did it. Obama did it.

[PossumSqueezins]

111. Marcos, the Shah of Iran and we never learn

It just keeps going on. We let our gubment and "liberal media" continue to villify democratically elected leaders and attempt to overthrow them. Chavez has been REPEATEDLY democratically elected under INTERNATIONALLY MONITORED ELECTIONS (and we could use those in Ohio and Florida BTW) and we conrtinue to villify him and the will of the people of Venuezela. We support heinous dictators like Marcos and the Shah and then pretend we're shocked when people revolt.

We're a country of idiots who always see short term gain as the goal and our foreign policy is too often dictated by what Exxon and BP want.

[sabrina 1]

113. Thank you, and welcome to DU.

Chavez is being deliberately targeted because he insists on keeping his country's resources under that country's control. And he has been hugely popular, not just in Venezuela but in other countries in S. American, helping them to establish their own sovereignty and get out from under the oppression of Global Corporate, IMF, World Bank backed dictators. To consolidate their independence he has pushed for a South American style NATO and is viewed as a threat to the ambitions of the Colonial Powers.

The revelations in the Wikileaks cables proved what we suspected all along. It is shameful that this country cannot change its ways and start respecting other countries' right to their own sovereignty, and to stop using NGOs and other rabble rousers to destabilize countries like this in order to bring back their old, failed policies which impoverished so many countries.

Those countries are not the problem we are. Not that long ago I remember that the 'left' at least, supported Chavez. Then around 2004 we began to see the anti-Chavez propaganda we had seen only on the Right creeping into leftwing forums. We have since learned that millions of dollars are being spent to demonize Chavez.

Some new ways to relate to other countries are needed. Our way is always violent. We could deal honestly with countries who have resources we need, we could simply sign contracts with them and buy what we need and sell them what they need. But for some reason we need to totally control them.

No matter how they try to demonize Chavez, he will be remembered as a hero where it matters, in Latin America. We are so ignorant, so arrogant, thinking only we know what is good for other people. Well I should not say 'we'. It used to be the far right, or so I though, but I'm learning.

[pmorlan1]

141. I applaud you

I applaud you for taking the time to post a great comment. Thank you. I totally agree with you.

[dipsydoodle]

117. Yes -welcome to DU

[ChangoLoa]

144. Perfectly clean elections... except for the blacklisting BY THE GOVT of 30% of the voters

who dislike Chavez.

5 million people in Lista Tascon... do you applaud that too?

[nanabugg]

153. You won't get far with stating the facts to some people. But thanks for trying?

It seems we never learn from history.