Russia Implicated in Shooting Down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Over Ukraine

[brooklynite]

Source: New York Times

UNITED NATIONS — A Dutch-led investigation has concluded that the powerful surface-to-air missile system that was used to shoot down a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine two years ago, killing all 298 on board, was trucked in from Russia at the request of Russian-backed separatists and returned to Russia the same night.

The report largely confirmed the already widely documented Russian government role not only in the deployment of the missile system, called a Buk, or SA-11, but the subsequent cover up, which continues to this day.

The report by a team of prosecutors from the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine was significant for applying standards of evidence admissible in court, while still building a case directly implicating Russia, and is likely to open a long diplomatic and legal struggle over the tragedy.

With meticulous detail, working with cellphone records, social media, witness accounts and other evidence, Dutch prosecutors traced Russia’s role in deploying the missile system into Ukraine and its attempt to cover its tracks after the disaster. The inquiry did not name individual culprits and stopped short of saying that Russian soldiers were involved.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/world/asia/malaysia-air-flight-mh17-russia-ukraine-missile.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

[onehandle]

1. What did Donald Trump know and when did he know it? nt

[Nitram]

4. They don't share real intelligence with Trump because he's a moron.

[dbackjon]

11. When did Paul Manafort know?

[7962]

2. Old news. We've known this since soon after the jet went down.

Rebels claimed responsibility as soon as it happened, thinking they shot down a military jet. Of course Russia supplied it

[Ron Obvious]

13. That's my recollection as well.

Russian-backed separatists shot it down, thinking they shot down a Ukrainian military jet.

That said, that airspace should have been closed at that time, and this was merely a tragic accident (or fuck-up). It should have been owned up to immediately, of course, but there's no reason to portray this as an international incident or warcrime.

[AngryAmish]

3. This is my shocked face.

[Sunlei]

5. even Russia's newly taken over by gov media reported they just "shot down a military plane"

Russian ground invader forces were touting their missile strike until they noticed the rain of innocent bodies from the skies above.

[joshcryer]

6. I suspect everyone involved has disappeared.

In those unmarked graves in that one city in Russia.

[randome]

7. Wait. What does Russia Today say?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[BumRushDaShow]

8. You made me look

However, the criminal investigation has not directly linked Russia to the downing, Dutch chief-prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said.

“We have determined that the weapons came from the Russian Federation. Having established this, we do not make statements about the participation of the Russian Federation as a nation or people from the Russian Federation,” the official said.

https://www.rt.com/news/360925-mh17-crash-jit-report/

[jamzrockz]

15. Things like this

[Blue_Tires]

9. Funny how few responses this story is getting

So once again, I've been proven 100% correct, and all the Putin apologists, trolls and hot take artists in the leftist blogosphere who constantly floated dozens of 'alternate theories' about 'what really happened' are nowhere to be found...

And just to recap some of the lowlights, the Russians....

1. Blocked a UN resolution for international tribunal into the shootdown: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33710088

2. Hacked the servers of the JIT to compromise the investigation: http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/10/23/pro-russia-hackers-targeted-dutch-mh17-investigators/

3. Have now openly admitted they fabricated their original radar data on the day of the incident: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/09/26/russian-defence-ministry-presents-evidence-faked-previous-mh17-evidence/

These are really odd actions for a nation to undertake if they are truly blameless in this situation, wouldn't you say?

[randome]

14. It's okay, Sabrina 1 has been absent for nearly 6 months.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Blue_Tires]

20. I actually miss her a little

Last edited Thu Sep 29, 2016, 08:42 AM - Edit history (2)

She was frequently way off the mark, but at least her heart was in the right place and she tried to use fact in her argument as opposed to the garden-variety trolls...

But when she started whitewashing and apologizing for Gaddafi, I knew she was lost for good: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026300021

Classic case of being so far left in an argument that the points end up going a full 180 degrees instead of 90... This was a turning point for me on this site personally, as I seriously began to wonder if some folks weren't losing the plot.

[randome]

25. I kind of miss her, too. We had interesting back-and-forths about Snowden, Assange, etc.

Those conversations helped clarify my own stance on those topics.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Meredith McIver approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[geek tragedy]

40. She's rooting for Trump these days.

Given the Putin/Assange love, probably inevitable.

[jamzrockz]

41. Yea, apologizing for Gaddafi

A beloved African leader who shared the wealth of the nation with his people, improved social and economical conditions for hims nation and was peaceful with his people and neighbours. Lets also not forget the thousands of good paying jobs that he provided for many Sub-Saharan African migrant workers many of whom came from Nigeria. Yes, lets not apologize for the man who was accused of many atrocity lies like

"Gaddafi soldiers fueled by viagra going out to rape women"
"Gaddafi used African (read black Libyans) to attack his own people"
"Gaddafi was going to slaughters people(nevermind the terrorists were in Banghazi) in Benghazi" etc etc etc

And saying nothing about the west who made those lies and use regime change to destroy nations after nation after nation. I have a bigger problem with the people who never question the racist and imperialist actions from their govt, the people who think anti Russia is good policy. I sorta understand the latter because most of you people are cold war babies who grew up at the height of the cold war when you were told to run under your desks when you heard Russia.

Racism, imperialism, hegemony apologist are by far the worst kind of wicked people you would find on DU. Sabrina was one of the few people that I loved on this site, she was very compassionate in not just the domestic arena but also with regard to foreign policy and that is where a lot of you guys are deficient in. A lot of people here are just hyper partisans who will turn a blind eye to American war crimes if a democrat is the one committing it.

[EX500rider]

43. ".....and was peaceful with his people and neighbours."

Sure...

If you don't count the whole assassinating various dissidents with hit squads, or the military intervention in Uganda to support Idi Amin of all people, or the invading or re-invading Chad...etc...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi

[jamzrockz]

16. Few response because people just don't believe it

This is the season to demonize the Russians, you hear calls for sanctions from the State dept for helping Syria defeat the US sponsored terrorist elements in that country and the US cannot be happy about that. So the US does what it does best when it is trying to attack. They use the media, UN and orgs like amnesty international to smear smear and smear.

Remember baby in incubator, Gaddafi viagra fueled rape army, African mercenaries, weapon of mass destruction etc etc etc. My gut tells me that the US seeing things going bad for them in Syria is up to their games once again.

[Blue_Tires]

18. Thanks for falling on your sword and beautifully proving my point

Please come back when you have something other than pure navel-gazing conjecture backing you up...

Meanwhile, I'll discuss this story with the adults in this thread...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

19. Does it have to be one or the other? Can't it just

be that both countries abuse their power and have fucked up foreign policies? One can criticize the US and Russia... and China, etc, etc. It appears that the Russians or their pro Russia clients are responsible for this specific act. Same way that the US and their clients are responsible for other atrocities around the globe. The discussions here always seem to devolve into "US empire apologists" or "Russian propagandists", "useful idiots", etc, etc.

[jamzrockz]

22. Let me state this differently

if a black man was tried in a KKK court, I would not believe the verdict. It doesn't mean I believe he is innocent, it is just that the system was very biased against him and any verdict reached should be dismissed out of hand. Then you also look at the history of the people making the allegation and it just makes you a lot more skeptical of the verdict

Gotta say that I too hate it when the "US empire apologists" or "Russian propagandists", "useful idiots", are having a debate in the forums. Its so annoying

[EX500rider]

27. So this Dutch Commission was somehow subverted by the CIA? lol

[jamzrockz]

32. Lol, I didn't say that

I am just saying that the panel is very one sided and the bias was already built into it from start. You don't need to create any conspiracy theory to understand what I am talking about.

[EX500rider]

34. The Dutch just understandingly want to know who killed a bunch of their citizens..

....and I am sure followed wherever the evidence took them.

[NickB79]

21. "So the US does what it does best when it is trying to attack."

The report by a team of prosecutors from the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine was significant for applying standards of evidence admissible in court, while still building a case directly implicating Russia, and is likely to open a long diplomatic and legal struggle over the tragedy.

Huh, no US involvement. How strange.....

Now, when you speak of what your gut is telling you, you wouldn't happen to be listening to the very bottom end of your gut, would you? The end typically filled with shit?

[jamzrockz]

23. All allies/client states of the US

First is a NATO member, second country illegally conducts bombing runs with US in Syria, 3rd is NATO, 4th is a client state, client state. Yea, it would had been a little more convincing if they had included China in the list of countries doing the investigation but I can imagine why they stacked the deck with friendly countries.

Btw, I wasn't talking about my rectum, the gut I was talking about is my stomach and its a fine bullshit detector.

[NickB79]

24. So to be clear, all the investigators from the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia

Were all working with the US in this to frame the Russians?

Because Lord knows, the Aussies have a real grudge with the Russians these days, right?

And all the evidence they presented was false?

And all the evidence the Russians have admitted to falsifying is actually correct?

And even though the Russians have finally admitted that it was in fact a Russian-made BUK system that downed the airliner (after trying desperately to blame Ukranian fighter jets at first)?

Please, using your fabulous bullshit detector, would you elaborate on who you think is actually responsible for the deaths of 298 people, and what evidence you used to draw that conclusion?

[jamzrockz]

26. Not what I said at all

I am saying that seeing how the team was stacked from head to toe with countries friendly to the US, I cannot accept the verdict. Yea, the Aussies who just bombed Syrian soldier in Deir Ezzor, the same Aussies who their president came out accusing Russia of downing the planes just hours after it happened. Yea, those guys are surely neutral parties.

I didn't say the evidence are all false or that all evidence presented by the Russians are all correct. Just saying that without a fair inquiry, I cannot accept the verdict.

Its a Russia made BUK system, why is this relevant to the discussion? the Ukrainians use the same system too. So why bring this us?

That is not how my bullshit detector works, you have to feed it information and it would tell you whether it is bullshit or not. Go on, try feeding me some info

[Eko]

29. So,

If it was N Korea, Iran and China it would be legit? With all humor aside one has to wonder which 5 countries you would think would make it legit.

[jamzrockz]

30. Why does it have to be

all stacked one way? I would like a mix where they opposition would have a chance to challenge claims made by the other side. And why is Ukraine part of the investigative panel? they are the only other possible entity that had a chance to shot down the plane.

Sorry but biased and stacked panel is biased and stacked. Get a mix of representatives from both sides or I am not going to believe the verdict. Its just that simple.

[bananas]

39. The "investigators" are prosecutors, they aren't hired to find the truth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adversarial_system

[EX500rider]

28. It has those countries because they were the ones most involved...

A Malaysian airline that took off from Holland and crashed in the Ukraine. The crew were all Malaysian and about two-thirds of the passengers were Dutch, while many of the other passengers were Australians and Malaysian.
Of course they would be having the inquiry, who'd you expect, Costa Rica?

[jamzrockz]

31. And Ukraine

was the other party that had the opportunity to shoot down the plane, allowed the plane to fly into enemy territory and it is very antagonistic to Russia. Why are they on the panel?

Sorry but they should have tried to make a more balanced group if they want people to believe it

[EX500rider]

33. Because it crashed in their country while under control of their ATC.

The rebels have no planes so the Ukrainians have zero history of shooting them down during this conflict, the rebels not so much..

[jamzrockz]

35. That is if you believe that Ukriane

did not have their Russian version of BUK missile in the area. if you believe that then the story checks out for you.

[EX500rider]

36. Yes I do believe the Ukranians did not sneak a tracked SAM launcher into and out of

.....rebel territory with no one the wiser.
The report does have a witness trail for that BUK launcher though, coming from Russia.

[Blue_Tires]

42. You'll be happy to know you're in rare company:

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/14/politics/donald-trump-mh17-plane-russians/index.html

[MBS]

38. Hey, I agree with you on all fronts.

and at no point have I ever harbored any illusions about the perpetrators. Just cannot reply until I'm home from work

So I'm not surprised by the latest news, but I do continue to be shocked and upset. Combined with the Trump phenomenon, plus Trump's connection with these folks . . .well, it's surreal. Honestly, if this were a novel, I once would have pegged the plot as too bizarre to be credible.
No more. As they say (or I think Leo Rosten said, paraphrasing an earlier quote by Mark Twain), "Why shouldn’t truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense."

The shameless disregard for truth is the single thing that upsets me the most, about both Trump and Putin.

[Marengo]

10. LIES! Ukrainian Nazis posing as sep...re, patriots, hijacked the launcher and intentionally...

Shot down the passenger liner.

[rumdude]

12. Trump's favorite country

Traitor.

[yellowcanine]

17. Trump says it was not Russia; it was a 400 lb couch hacker!

[Rex]

37. Looks like it, they ID the missile as Russian military.

Oopsie. What did Trump know and when did he know it?