Woodland teacher suspended after kneeling during national anthem at school rally
Source: The Sacramento Bee
A Woodland High School chemistry teacher was suspended Friday for kneeling while the national anthem was played at a school assembly.
Windy Pappas had posters reading Black Lives Matter and Its okay to disagree with any sign here!!! as the national anthem played during Woodland Highs rally to kick off homecoming week on Friday morning. She was dressed in school colors orange and black and had her right hand over her heart as she kneeled, based on a photo circulating on social media.
The rally proceeded without incident, but administrators later came to her classroom and escorted her to the school parking lot, she told The Daily Democrat. She has since been indefinitely suspended.
Pappas declined to comment Monday, citing a pending investigation.
Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article179175046.html
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)bible each day, it rotated around the class. ... then the pledge of allegiance, and then under god we trust. ... now under tRump we cringe.
tblue37
(65,403 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,112 posts)that protest is wrong somehow?
Fuck that
slumcamper
(1,606 posts)In Tinker v. Des Moines School District.
Of course, such precedents are always subject to Court scrutiny (e.g., Brown overturning Plessy). As power within our political and judicial system continues to drift toward authoritarian and nationalist positions, much social progress will be challenged.
Igel
(35,317 posts)and you make it a media event to protest something, tell that to your boss.
She's an employee at a function in which she's acting as a school representative. The opinion deals with students.
Teachers are already special in that they can be fired for reducing their effectiveness. The year I was a hired a teacher was seen getting soused at a Friday happy hour wearing her school shirt. She was canned Monday.
As far as the teacher was concerned, it was not a public space. Kids have rights and right to a FAFE and (relatively) free expression; teachers have contracts and no right to the job they currently hold.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)Besides the law, there is something seriously wrong with any employer, especially a government employer, forcing an employee to pledge allegiance. And yes being forced to stand is a pledge of allegiance.
As an employee of the government, she has more protections than a private employee.
Staff are expected to attend rallies to supervise students and are assigned where to sit or stand, Lutz said. While most students attend rallies, the school also offers a separate location for those who choose not to. If Pappas attended the rally as a chaperone and didnt offer an educational lecture, Risher said, imposing a suspension for her protest could prove difficult.
Homecoming is not a part of the school curriculum. Its essentially a social or spirit event, and that would certainly weigh in favor of her expressing her political views at that sort of event, Risher said. I dont think anyone would confuse her personal expression here with expressing the views of the school, and that matters in this context.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article179175046.html#storylink=cpy
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)And no one would say shit.
I understand one could claim religion freedom.
However, why does an employer have the right to impose their political beliefs on an employee? Does not seem right.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Exxon, because....CHILDREN. No other occupation carries the "in loco parentis" responsibility, e.g.
It of course remains to be seen what the outcome of this suspension will be. "Fostering a disruptive atmosphere" might be a stretch if the District tries to apply that rationale to an act at a Pep rally.
But in general terms, no, a public school teacher cannot just say whatever he wants while serving in his employee capacity.
I got away with A LOT in my classes as an outspoken proponent of Democratic ideas!
adigal
(7,581 posts)On my own time. That is a bullshit firing.
adigal
(7,581 posts)Make them go out in the hallway during the pledge. Which is not right.
But a teacher? I AM a public employee, i have to be there diring pledge and anthem, would I kneel? I think i could get fired.
jpak
(41,758 posts)yup
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)She is there to do a job, which includes being a role model for the students, and does not include sharing her own personal political beliefs.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,196 posts)If she was a neo-Nazi nut job I would want her suspended as well.
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)I went to the admin and complained.
Bettie
(16,110 posts)I'm guessing not.
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)I assume he was spoken to, however, and we had no more trouble with it.
handmade34
(22,756 posts)when "Black Lives Matter" is a punishable offense
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)You can't allow one without the other.
Neither is acceptable when done by a teacher in a school setting.
gabeana
(3,166 posts)since you like to equate Neo Nazi's with Black lives Matter
I guess you wouldn't have approved the Civil Rights movement many educators led the marches, were arrested
If your main complaint is school setting, I guess you had issue with Sal Castro, who organized Latino students to walk out of east L.A. schools because high drop out rates, inferior schools, overcrowded, lack of opportunity, etc.
Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both.
(1857) Frederick Douglass,
I glad most people don't fall in line
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)If you think the poster was equating the two, then you have another think coming.
onenote
(42,714 posts)That being said, as discussed in a post above, there are several variables that come into play when it comes to assessing the scope of a teacher's first amendment rights (or, for that matter, a student's first amendment rights).
Cold War Spook
(1,279 posts)was do not respect the Constitution, because if you do, you will be punished.
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)She has a right to protest but, if done when on duty, the school has a right to discipline her.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)She has a lot more protections than a private employee.
onenote
(42,714 posts)the school setting.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)But in general, the students have less 1st Amendment protections from the government (their keepers in this case) than the average person on the street.
And the teachers have more 1st Amendment protections from their employers (the government in this case) than the vast amount of private employees on the street.
Bettie
(16,110 posts)you get punished.
So, for the authoritarians among us, it's a win/win.
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)How about an anti-abortion protest, complete with dead fetus signs? Would you still be so supportive of her right to protest in front of the whole school? Would it be too 'authoritarian' to expect our kids not be subjected to racism or extremist beliefs?
But of course it's totally okay if it is a cause you believe in. So who is supposed to pick and choose which teacher protests are allowed? The principal (a likely Republican)?
How about no staff-led political activities in the school at all? (In fact there is probably a regulation against political activities in taxpayer funded facilities, so there really is no choice).
gabeana
(3,166 posts)this is what Hillary Clinton said about players kneeling
Actually, kneeling is a reverent position, Clinton said. It was to demonstrate in a peaceful way against racism and injustice in our criminal system.Thats not against our anthem or our flag.
7962
(11,841 posts)It seems as though anytime someone brings up that point, they get accused of being a troll, or right wing, or some other such nonsense. Your point is spot on
Reminds me of when Harry Reid changed he rules of the Senate while Dems were in control. A lot of folks here thought it was a great thing, but I asked "what about when republicans control the Senate? Which will happen at some point". And we see what happened there.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)First we have to understand her employer is also the government so the rules are a little trickier and she has some 1st Amendment protections from her employer.
It's been litigated that she can make some political statements. Even in the school setting -- but not as part of the curriculum. But she IS afforded some leeway at school sponsored events outside the classroom.
If she is allowed to make a political statement there are a couple rules that come to mind that could preclude her from speaking. One is her speech in criticism of her employee/employer relationship? Another is her political expression likely to affect her ability to teach? (There are others but those are the big ones that come to mind).
In the first scenario she can, say, complain about matters of public interest even if it means criticizing her employer (the school board or superintendent) but she can't publicly complain about her boss in private employee/employer matters -- say for instance complaints about being disciplined for tardiness.
The other rule is does her political expression can't affect her ability to teach?
I think an expression in favor of nazism would fail that test. If she spoke up in favor of Nazism do you think the Black and Jewish kids in the school would feel comfortable being graded by a Nazi?
Now the big question is do you think white kids would or should feel uncomfortable being taught by a Black Lives Matter supporter? Will this support affect her ability to teach?
I think the answer is no. I'm sure the right wing will try to spin that narrative.
Why should we buy the right wing bullshit? I know I don't.
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)And certainly white kids would not be uncomfortable with her stance (while some might disagree, they will forget about it pretty quickly).
I do see your point about how some other political statements would be far more damaging to the teacher - student relationships.
My outlook is based on my strong belief that teachers' personal beliefs and causes have no place in the classroom (or at a rally). That goes for the Jehovah's Witness teacher, the sub who read Bible verses, the History teacher who spewed Republican talking points. Teachers have a great deal of power to mold young minds, and if you allow any of this, you allow it all.
I also am a chemistry teacher. I don't even tell the students who I am voting for in an election (and none of my peers do either, as far as I know). Instead I model compassion, fairness, honesty, respect for diversity, and caring about our environment.
FreeState
(10,572 posts)Chemisse
(30,813 posts)I would be livid as a parent if a teacher at my child's school conducted a political protest in support of a Republican stance. And if you let one go by, you set a precedent to allow the other.
Teachers need to be neutral politically while on the job. Now if this teacher had done this when off duty, I would be against her suspension.
handmade34
(22,756 posts)"Black Lives Matter" a politically partisan stance... I would certainly put up a "Black Lives Matter" poster in my class if I were still teaching. It is a very real human rights issue per the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
There is no rational comparison to Neo-Nazi dogma. Nazism is very much a political stance and of course not appropriate for teachers to advocate. This teacher acted in a manner that could be a real opportunity for a class or schoolwide discussion, but I would not expect a suspension...
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)It's an expression of humanity. I don't understand why everybody doesn't embrace it.
Unfortunately, it turned into a wildly political issue when others came out with 'all lives matter' and 'blue lives matter', to minimize the importance of righting the injustice. In addition, the idea of 'taking the knee' has become wrapped in the flag, turned into an offense against our nation.
It's bullshit that it is so political, but it is. Such are the times in which we live.
murielm99
(30,745 posts)We went to school to protest a teacher who had pro-Republican stuff in his classroom and office area. It was especially bewildering because he was the band conductor and music teacher.
We spoke to him privately. He apologized and removed everything. It never happened again.
He was young when this happened. He was a good teacher. He built a good music program here. He left after ten years, because a nearby community paid him more. I was sorry to see him go.
iluvtennis
(19,862 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)iluvtennis
(19,862 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)proselytize (good, right?). Cannot swear in the classroom. And so on.
Other jobs probably have "free speech" limitations as well.
The Constitution refers only to the fact that the government cannot punish citizens for their expression of thoughts, which has been broadened to include nude dancing, something public school teachers cannot do at a school event! Haha!
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)But many workplaces would fire someone who brought their political activities to work with them.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Speaking as former Federal union representative of 33 years, and not an attorney, but quite familiar with the subject.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts).... employer is the government?
That's strange.
(By additional I mean above and beyond what a private employee might have)
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)many relating to the Hatch Act, that limit what they can and cannot do politically as Federal employees.
As to First Amendment rights, and the Hatch Act, no Federal employee has the absolute right to speak politically on the employers' time. If a Federal employee were to make political statements not directly connected to the performance of their duties, such unauthorized speech would be a violation of the Code of Ethical Conduct. And violations of the Code of Ethical Conduct are treated as serious violations.
As to this particular incident, if the teacher had been off duty the situation would be different. But the teacher was acting in a capacity as a teacher, and on the clock, when the conduct took place.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)I agree that speaking while on the company time could be problematic. But what about at a company sponsored event?
Nobody is saying any government employee has absolute 1st Amendment protection. But they can criticize their ultimate employee on matters of public policy - way more protection than any private employee ever had/has.
Staff are expected to attend rallies to supervise students and are assigned where to sit or stand, Lutz said. While most students attend rallies, the school also offers a separate location for those who choose not to. If Pappas attended the rally as a chaperone and didnt offer an educational lecture, Risher said, imposing a suspension for her protest could prove difficult.
Homecoming is not a part of the school curriculum. Its essentially a social or spirit event, and that would certainly weigh in favor of her expressing her political views at that sort of event, Risher said. I dont think anyone would confuse her personal expression here with expressing the views of the school, and that matters in this context.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article179175046.html#storylink=cpy
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)platform," which Mr. Rischer said before he narrowed his criterion to "not a part of the school curriculum."
In any case, the ACLU is not the determining entity.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)He is using "platform" correctly and you are misconstruing the word to mean a school sponsored event.
In this case, "platform" is the policy or curriculum approved and expressed by the administration and its authorized employees.
From Webster: a declaration of the principles on which a group of persons stands; especially :a declaration of principles and policies adopted by a political party or a candidate.
In other words, and he goes on to bolster this opinion, the teacher can't "speak" within the curriculum where it could be construed as the official opinion of the school -- the platform.
He goes on to clarify in plain language the case law is such that a teacher can "speak" at a school sponsored event when not actively instructing students (the platform). He's correct, a pep rally is not part of the curriculum.
He doesn't contradict. You are hung up using a wrong definition of platform.
You say "The ACLU is not the determining entity"
How about a opinion from the former California Attorney General? The ACLU is parroting his opinion, which btw, is backed up by the case law.
The AG quotes the case law and also spells it out in plain language.
https://firstamendmentcoalition.org/2009/06/ag-opinion-01-307-teachers-can-wear-political-buttons-at-back-to-school-night2001/
by Firstamendment on June 13, 2009 in News & Opinion
TO BE PUBLISHED IN THE OFFICIAL REPORTS
OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
State of California
BILL LOCKYER
Attorney General
OPINION
of
BILL LOCKYER
Attorney General
ANTHONY S. Da VIGO
Deputy Attorney General
:
No. 01-307
July 12, 2001
THE HONORABLE JACK SCOTT, MEMBER OF THE STATE SENATE, has requested an opinion on the following question:
May a school district prohibit teachers from wearing political buttons while attending Back-to-School Night, an annual event where teachers meet with parents to discuss the curriculum and related matters for the coming school year?
CONCLUSION
A school district may not prohibit teachers from wearing political buttons while attending Back-to-School Night, an annual event where teachers meet with parents to discuss the curriculum and related matters for the coming school year.
In California Teachers Assn. v. Governing Board, supra, 45 Cal.App.4th 1383, the court distinguished between the situations where the teachers were wearing political buttons while teaching their students and where the teachers were not providing instruction to their pupils. The court observed:
We find the district has the power to prevent its employees from wearing political buttons in its classrooms and when they are otherwise engaged in providing instruction to the districts students. On the other hand we find the district has no such power when its employees are not engaged in instructional activities. (Id. at p. 1385.)
alarimer
(16,245 posts)But we are, at heart, an authoritarian country, where we have somehow decided that the constitution (as in the Bill of Rights) does not apply everywhere. And I guess they thought this protest was political. Somehow, protesting the police is automatically a political act. Because we are an authoritarian country and not supposed to criticize authority.
Sad.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)It goes both ways here.
Turbineguy
(37,342 posts)She teaches science.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)The original purpose is being lost in the shuffle
handmade34
(22,756 posts)"Black Lives Matter" and this is what the teacher brought attention to... I don't see any diversion from that
iluvtennis
(19,862 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)What specifically leads you to allege that?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)alarimer
(16,245 posts)The fact that it doesn't is just one more sign that our constitution is not worth the paper it's printed on. I'd say tear it up and start over, this time with REAL protections that apply EVERYWHERE AND TO EVERYWHERE.
I want a new country.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)are protections against government actions only.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)This is how the courts have decided things. Starting from scratch (yeah, I know, not gonna happen), I think we could be more explicit about when and where it applies. It just seems so odd to me that you have basically no rights in the workplace unless you have a contract (say with a union) that spells them out. I doubt that was the original intent, but who knows.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Even with a National Agreement, the Hatch Act and the Code of Ethical Conduct still applies.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)PLACE. Those rights are from laws passed by Congress (OSHA, Unemployment Compensation, Child labor, etc.).
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Corporations (or any workplace) should not be able to limit your rights, including speech, at work or anywhere else (especially anywhere else- how many times have people gotten canned for things they did elsewhere?).
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)onetexan
(13,042 posts)this is Sacramento, northern California for goodness sake!
Brother Buzz
(36,444 posts)Woodland has been hard core Rush Limbaugh country years before the rest of the nation ever even heard of him. That's a fact, Jack.
onetexan
(13,042 posts)Brother Buzz
(36,444 posts)Thankfully population, not real estate, determines representation
logosoco
(3,208 posts)If we don't have the freedom to choose to stand or not, or take a knee if we feel the country has wounds, then what have we become?
The incident in this story did not take place in the classroom. It was a public event. When the National Anthem plays, are we required as citizens to have to stand or not? This teacher sees the injury done to other citizens and does not choose to stand but to take a knee (which I learned when my daughter was a cheer leader is what you do when a player is injured, so I see the connection there0.
If this was my school district, I would really think this is not a fire-able offense. It gives the students a chance to see something that we have the freedom to do in this country, stand up and speak out to the government with any grievances.
I do not want to be in a "my country, right or wrong" place if I can't say what I think is wrong or right about it.
Any student, teacher or employee in a private employ should never be forced to worship or obey something they don't want to if it is not directly job related. Is standing for the Anthem something a teacher must do to be a good teacher? If we say yes, we are shutting down a lot of the freedom for people to think for themselves. And kids should learn to do that, especially now.
bluestarone
(16,972 posts)i agree America is America. To stand or kneel is our choice!
adigal
(7,581 posts)I didnt stand for the pledge.
Schools are quite authoritarian.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)Any union would fight this.