Family of deranged man fatally shot by cops in Times Square upset over use deadly force

[TomClash]

Source: NY Daily News

Relatives of the deranged knife-wielding man gunned down by cops in Times Square say they are upset about the NYPD’s use of deadly force in the confrontation.

“It doesn't take 12 bullets to kill one person,” the dead man’s aunt, Margaret Johnson, told The News.

“I think it could have been done another way.”

. . .

Kennedy grew belligerent, and when police attempted to cuff him, he struggled free, pulling an Ikea kitchen knife with a six-inch blade out of his pocket and waving it over his head.
He backed down 7th Ave for seven blocks as more cops amassed.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/family-deranged-man-fatally-shot-cops-times-square-upset-deadly-force-article-1.1134880#ixzz23O2DYrZp

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/family-deranged-man-fatally-shot-cops-times-square-upset-deadly-force-article-1.1134880

---

Watch the Daily News video. Draw your own conclusions.

Smoking weed one minute, dead a few minutes later.

[hog]

1. killer cops

murder plain and simple.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

2. “It doesn't take 12 bullets to kill one person,”

See what Bush did?

Buncha cowboys.

[Posteritatis]

3. Uh, that practice isn't exactly one that Bush instituted. (nt)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

4. True,....but they got promoted.

[MADem]

5. What was in that "weed?"

Most people "smoking weed one minute" who grab an Ikea kitchen knife are using it to slice some cheese and salami to beat down an attack of the munchies, not running down the street waving a knife.

This poor guy was deranged. Or on something a LOT stronger than weed.

The police did try to spray him first. Six times.

“He looked like he was crazy,” said Jalloh Osman, 26, who joined a crowd of onlookers watching the strange showdown at the corner of W. 37th St. “They sprayed him, and he kept going backwards.
“They kept telling him, ‘Put it down! Put it down!’ But he refused.”
Kennedy died at Bellevue Hospital about 40 minutes after the shooting, NYPD spokesman Paul Browne said, adding that six blasts of pepper spray failed to slow the man.
Frightened pedestrians ran for cover into nearby buildings as the man — his knife held aloft like a torch at one point — inexplicably ambled backward for seven blocks, witnesses said.
“He was holding a giant knife,” said Jobby Nogueras, 17. “He was swinging it toward everyone — pedestrians, cops. He would just swing.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nypd-cops-shoot-knife-wielding-man-heart-crowded-times-square-article-1.1134432

This is a sad story. I suppose if the police had some "intermediate" method--like, say, a giant net they could throw over the guy and scoop him up, like a Road Runner cartoon--that might be a solution. Or a tranquilizer gun. But then, people would get mad every time the police used that sort of tool, too.

[jerseyjack]

6. or maybe they could shoot to wound.

Assholes with 12 shots and we don't know how many shots missed.

Shoot him in the leg? Nah, not as much fun.

Maybe rubber bullets? Fuck that. Not as macho. We're real men.

[geek tragedy]

9. They are not trained to shoot guys in legs.

If someone is enough of a threat that you need to discharge your weapon, they shoot to incapacitate.

This guy brought his fate on himself.

[MADem]

10. That's not part of the protocol, and I can see why.

If you use deadly force, you need to mean it.

I don't know if the police who responded even had any rubber bullets. Do those things even shoot out of regular guns? Usually, you hear about rubber bullets and beanbags in response to crowd control situations--I don't think beat cops routinely have them on them. I don't know, though--I'd love to hear from someone who has big city cop experience on this issue.

All I can say is, I would not have wanted to be a cop in that situation. I don't think any of those cops found that "fun" and I'll bet the ones who were involved in the shooting feel like shit.

Are you sure they were all men? Surely there are women on the police force of NYC these days???

[NickB79]

50. Rubber bullets and beanbags in be fired out of 12-gauge shotguns

But a lot of police departments don't even carry shotguns these days. They're upgrading to M4 assault rifle variants.

[MADem]

55. I have no idea what the "deal" was, there, of course--I wasn't there. But I have been to

Disney-Times Square...it's very sanitized, lots of cops of foot, and I'm wondering if the initial response came from the cops who are standing around protecting and serving as opposed to any more specialized team with a shotgun, or even some dudes in a car with one in the back. I don't think those "standing around" guys would be carrying shotguns...at least, I've never seen them doing that!

Of course, it's been a couple of years since I've been to NYC. I always seem to end up there on the hottest day of the year for some reason...

[Posteritatis]

11. Shooting a moving target in the leg is not nearly as easy as TV claims.

Complaining about shots missing while blaming the cops for not taking an approach that would guarantee more missed shots is especially ridiculous. Leaving aside the fact that you cannot specifically "shoot to wound," especially with something like a leg shot, all that would do is greatly increase the number of rounds skipping downrange (at which point people would be howling about what bad shots the officers are).

[SWTORFanatic]

43. Nor does it necessarily stop someone even if they hit

Bullets do damage because they put small holes in vital body parts, not because they knock you down like a cannon.

The legs and arms are quite tough when it comes to bullets (even some parts of the chest/abdomen are too, as long as organs or the spine are not hit).

[X_Digger]

13. Shoot to wound is a hollywood myth.

If a person is such a danger to others that shooting is justified, cops do not want to endanger a bystander with a miss or a ricochet.

[CanonRay]

17. Sorrry, you don't shoot to "wound"

It is just too dangerous for bystanders...think of a city, with a shot going past the guy, or bouncing up off the pavement. They are trained to shoot center mass. Cop bullets inflict maximum damage, without passing through (which can also kill a bystander).

Sorry, but this one sounds clean to me.

[Missycim]

27. Cops (and gun carriers in general dont shoot to wound that a hollywood falsehood)

You shoot center mass

[joeglow3]

40. I was waiting for my favorite reply.

After all, life is just like the movies.

[primavera]

41. I wonder how constables in the UK would have handled the situation

Since they don't carry guns, they wouldn't have had the option of just shooting the guy.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

49. If the cops were any good, they'd have shot the knife out of his hand

Or maybe just shoot to break the knife blade, leave him holding the haft.

How hard can that be?

[jberryhill]

51. On a street with people on it?

Bullets don't stop until they find someplace to do so.

[Great Caesars Ghost]

53. I hope that was a joke....

Otherwise,

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

83. In case there was any doubt, yes, I was kidding.

That would be a nearly impossible shot, even in a non-stress environment like a practice range.

It looks good in the movies, though.

[Riftaxe]

68. Somehow, shooting just to wound a homicidal maniac

does not seem like that bright of an idea....might just be right up there with skydiving without parachutes

[Xithras]

85. Being shot ANYWHERE can be deadly.

Being shot in the leg has just as much chance of killing you as being shot in the torso. Sever a criminals femoral artery and he's going to bleed out in minutes. There's also the fact that bullets are unpredictable when hitting things. I remember reading of a case last year where someone was shot in the hip. The bullet bounced off his hipbone and ripped through his heart.

"Shoot to wound" is a myth. All bullets can kill, no matter where they hit.

[dixiegrrrrl]

56. No tasers?????

Seems like cops use tasers on kids and pregnant woman without hesitiation..why not this guy?
And if he was backing away from them, what danger did a 6 inch blade create?

[MADem]

57. According to passers-by/tourists, he was lunging at people with the knife.

You have to get fairly close-in to use a taser--it's not like Star Trek. Twenty feet doesn't seem like much when a guy has a big knife, just saying...and of course, if the cops doing the shooting don't HAVE a taser, that option is off the table.

Did you see the knife? It was a very WIDE thing with a six inch blade, silver and dramatic looking.

This wasn't just about the officers, it was about the tourists, who, from all accounts, were terrified.

And it could be a "suicide by cop" scenario. Who knows? The guy has had brushes with the law before, one where he did the same thing with a screwdriver. He was clearly disturbed.

It is a sad situation.

Two responding cops pulled their patrol car onto the sidewalk on Seventh Avenue between 37th and 38th streets, where they helped corner the ranting Kennedy, who was yelling, “Shoot me! Shoot me!”
“The officers got out of the car. As a result, [Kennedy] approached the officers with the knife. They had no place to go; they fired their weapons. It’s unfortunate,” the commissioner said....One of the two officers who fired, a 40-year-old with 18 years on the job, shot three times. His partner, 30 and a seven-year cop, fired nine times. They were two to three feet from Kennedy, said NYPD spokesman Paul Browne.
Kennedy was hit at least seven times, Browne said, including three times in the chest, twice in the left arm, once in the groin and once in the left calf.
Kelly insisted 12 rounds was not excessive, and he said none of the cops involved could have used a Taser for one simple reason: They didn’t have one.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/thug_had_done_it_before_Z3WFEdFnsyqE4l0SfhH77H#ixzz23SBbAgiN

[dixiegrrrrl]

66. ty for the info, MADem..

I am guilty of not reading all of the story.

[TheMadMonk]

76. Your national love affair with littigation is why nets and similar...

...are not used.

All it takes is one idiot to DELIBERATELY wind the net around his neck or push his face into the "glue" from a taffy gun.

LAWSUIT!

Oh and tranqs are out because of dosage response variations.

[Archae]

7. Guy I know told me something disturbing.

He said people are smoking pot mixed with those "bath salts," and for some, it drives them nuts.
Totally berzerk.

What can cops do with a guy who's doing that, and has a knife?

Can't even tazer them, the tazer just gets them more pissed off.

[geek tragedy]

12. This guy had a history of similar incidents

Kennedy was taken to the same hospital by cops in October 2008 for a psychiatric evaluation after he was picked up for knocking over garbage cans in Times Square.

A month later he was arrested after yelling curses at motorists as he walked amongst traffic on Broadway near W. 66th St.

When police moved in to arrest him, he threatened them with a screwdriver.

“I”m gonna f- you up,” Kennedy told cops, according to NYPD officials.

He was charged with criminal possession of a weapon, menacing, reckless endangerment, and resisting arrest in the 2008 incident.

He was sentenced to 40 days in jail after pleading guilty to resisting arrest.

He has additional prior arrests stretching back to 1978, cops said, for harassment and possession of marijuana, weapons and stolen property.

[geek tragedy]

8. Maniac impervious to non deadly force threatens the general public

with a weapon.

Predictable result ensues.

Suicide by cop.

[TomClash]

14. Except

None of that happened until after the police tried to arrest him for smoking weed in public and doing it while black. There was no justification for a squad of officers to gun down this guy in cold blood.

Discharging a weapon in the military and law enforcement used to be serious business. That was because the act often brought unintended consequences. Now it is apparently regarded as routine and almost always warranted.

What if an officer firing one of the twelve shots missed and hit an innocent bystander? This was distinctly possible in a crowded area like Times Square. Who answers for that killing? How do we get that life back?

[geek tragedy]

21. You kind of skipped the part where this drugged-up wacko was waving

a long knife around in the middle of times square daring cops to shoot him, and then lunged toward them.

[TomClash]

26. And you completely missed the rest

Like who started it.

And being surrounded by guys with guns.

And backing away.

But it's just another dead nigga and, hey, some lives are cheap, I suppose.

[psychopomp]

33. That's not fair

Every black American, including myself, knows what happens when a weapon is pulled in public and one refuses to give up immediately.

The deceased may have been unable to think clearly, but that wouldn't make him less dangerous or less culpable.

I'm fairly sure the outcome would have been the same for any man. Police use deadly force in such situations.

[TomClash]

60. And how does that make it right?

Do you think he should have been killed? I don't. I think half a dozen or more well-armed cops should be able to apprehend a guy with a knife without killing him.

We will never know if the outcome would have been the same for any man. It only seems to happen to people of the wrong color and class in this town. I can't say I'm a big fan of that.

[NickB79]

52. A cop tried to arrest him for breaking the law

He resisted and grabbed a knife. The cop called backup, they tried repeatedly to subdue him with non-lethal force, and then finally shot him.

I'm all for legalizing marijuana, but until that day comes, what he was doing was technically breaking the law and the police were fully justified in arresting him for it. He would have probably gotten a misdemeanor citation and a fine if he wouldn't have resisted, but instead he grabbed a knife.

"What if an officer firing one of the twelve shots missed and hit an innocent bystander? "

And what if he slashed someone's throat while the police stood by? What consequences would fall upon the officers for not preventing a murder right in front of them?

[TomClash]

59. Nonsense

A robotic application of the law makes no sense and is the very height of conservative folly.

Good police officers make reasonable judgment calls on arrests all the time. If every law was always enforced most of the country would be in jail.

Study after study shows this law is applied unequally and unfairly, against young black men, while whites toke unabated, which is one reason why the Governor is pushing for decriminalization.

The rigid application of a bad law just got someone killed and placed countless lives in danger - all to catch a guy smoking weed who was backing away and was cornered by at least half a dozen cops. Not exactly the NYPD's finest hour.

The guy only pulled a knife after he was hassled for no good reason. No one was in danger until the NYPD decided to pick on the guy.

It's ironic that DU is all up in arms about guns but when the police pump a dozen bullets into a black guy without a gun, it's nary a word about the consequences.

[NickB79]

61. Whether you like it or not, it is still illegal to smoke weed in public

And while I agree it's stupid, the police WERE within their rights to arrest the man for doing so, even if you think it is morally wrong and unreasonable.

Technically, a police officer could detain me for jaywalking, and he'd be within his right to do so. That doesn't give ME the right to pull a knife and start swinging.

And he wasn't backpedaling when he was shot according to the witness accounts. He was within 3 FEET of one of the officers when he was shot, which means that officer put himself in extreme danger trying NOT to shoot the man until the last possible moment.

[TomClash]

64. He was surrounded

And the video shows him backpedaling as a squad of police move toward him. The police then cornered him using a patrol car. Extreme danger with at least six officers accompanying the officer in "danger?" Please.

[RobinA]

92. I Wish

we could take every policeperson and pound training as to how to handle the mentally ill into their brains. I've seen cops get it. Too many don't. If you corner an unmedicated mentally ill person like this they will fight for their lives. Being outnumbered doesn't even sink in.

We just had a mentally ill guy in cuffs shot to death in my area. He didn't have a weapon. Three cops were involved, guy was smallish and out of his mind. If you read the report, you could see (maybe) why the cop did what he did. They weren't sure the man was actually cuffed with both hands, he kicked them in the head so they weren't thinking with all cylinders, and there was a physical fight during which the shooting cop thought the possibly uncuffed guy was going for his gun. The thing is, they shouldn't even have been in the situation. You just can't come at a mentally ill person who is losing it in a threatening way. It will NEVER diffuse the situation. Normal cop protocal is the complete opposite of how these people should be handled.

By the way, the dead man's crime? Walking down the street in a small town in a raincoat in 95 degree heat, waving a bottle of iced tea and shouting obscenities.

[CanonRay]

18. Bingo

You can't let a knife wielding guy run around on a city street. What if he grabs some six year old from their mom...I think from the little I see that the cops are clean in this case. I've weighed in on a lot of bad cop shit here, but not this one.

[TomClash]

15. Judging from many of the replies

DU is now Freeperland. Ugh.

[CanonRay]

19. To not automatically not shit on the cops makes us freepers?

Sometimes the cops are right. Not always, and in some departments they are wrong more than they are right, but you have to look at each case individually. And cops are human beings, too. Some of them are assholes, some are nice guys doing a very hard job.

[TomClash]

25. Agree with the content

But not with the title.

Many people seem to have little regard for the surroundings or the circumstances. That's disturbing.

[Missycim]

28. Would you have been happy

if he stabbed someone with that knife? No matter who started what?

[TomClash]

30. No

Would you have been happy if an innocent bystander in the busiest block in the country had been shot?

It started off with a guy smoking weed.

[psychopomp]

34. And same guy drew a deadly weapon

The lesson is, DON'T DO THIS. You will die.

[TomClash]

63. Is that the lesson you draw from this episode?

I see an increase in police brazenness, a desire to confront and offend individuals (especially black men but not exclusively) in this town and elsewhere, at all levels. I see amplified weaponry ready to be employed at a moment's notice. Police mobilizing in platoon strength at political or cultural events. I see the public put in danger for no good reason. And it's getting worse.

I am beginning to draw a different lesson from events like these.

[Missycim]

36. I thought weed smokers

are supposed to be calm and relaxed.


Well it doesn't matter who started it, you draw a knife on a cop don't complain(or your family) if they shoot you.

[TomClash]

65. I wouldn't know

But I'm sure the world is now safe for the public, well protected from the violence of loose cigarettes.

[Missycim]

67. And knife wielders

nt

[TomClash]

69. No

They're buying guns. Lesson learned.

[crimson77]

16. What ever happened to taser's, cops used to love their taser's

In all honesty, I'm going to give the cops a pass. I have a family member who is a bi-polar manic depressive, and when he drinks and abuses drugs is totally out of control. At family functions there have been times where I have wanted to shoot him 12 times.

[Missycim]

29. Well a lot of

people dont like tasers, though it has to be far better then being shot.

[Historic NY]

20. We have had several incidents upstate ....

only one fatal shooting but whatever they are smoking in the weed its getting up hear ... its always males and mostly up here they are running around naked.

Meth - wet - crank- embalming fluid - pcp - etc.. its all in the mix.

[Proletariatprincess]

22. cops shooting a deranged man 12 times because he is waving a knife around is not justified. Ever.

When did we start allowing cops to use excessive force with inpunity? Every incident like this makes the cops believe that they can do anything they want...especially if the alleged perpatrator is a black man. And the fact is they can. We allow law enforcement to use lethal force and then do not hold them accountable.
There was a time when a cop relied on his billy club to disarm an offender. They weren't such cowards in those days always whining about how dangerous their jobs are.
Remember the immortal words of Super Chicken: "If your afraid you'll have to over look it because you knew the job was dangerous when you took it.."
Seriously though, welcome to the Police state where cops use lethal force as their first choice. Wake up people. Both Law enforcement and the Justice department are out of control and not serving the people.

[psychopomp]

35. The guy went seven blocks with a knife out

I'm pretty sure we can agree that he posed a deadly threat.

Crazy people with knives are likely to be shot if they run around one of the most populated, congested areas in the country regardless of color.

[frankieT]

42. SHAME ON AMERICA

Did the guy attempt to stab someone ? You americans became so obsessed with security, it's insane.
Everybody is a deadly threat to everybody, that's part of living in society. If you support excessive force when cops feel or understand there is some kind of threat, then everybody becomes fair game to them.

"Oh i saw the little girl reach for her pocket, i thought it was gun, boom (13 times), better safe than sorry, welcome to america".

Come on are you all nuts or what !!! Crazy people, drinking, smoking, etc in the streets and doing strange and frightening stuff, existed IN ALL COUNTRIES FOR CENTURIES, civilized populations seem to have managed this kind of "deadly threats", I don't know how you can justify this absurd shooting. Besides, it's really lame to see 12 cops surrounding a guy with a knife and empty their guns on him.

[Proletariatprincess]

44. Good on ya, Frankie

You see the issue clearly and through an historical perspective. I don't know when the so called land of the brave and home of the free became a police state and it's citizens such cowards.

[AtheistCrusader]

47. It's not like they shot him once, waited to see what would happen, shot him again, waited, etc.

It takes about a second for them to discharge that many shots, especially with two officers firing.

I'm a little curious why they didn't taze him, if the CS spray was ineffective, but perhaps they did, and it was also ineffective, and wasn't reported.

There will be more details, but the singular data point of '12 shots' doesn't prove anything in this case. Hell, they once shot an unarmed guy 41 times. This guy was at least armed. In a gallows-humor sort of way, that's a marked improvement.

[MADem]

58. They had no taser, they were a couple of feet away and backed up against their patrol car.

He was coming at them, not backing away.

At least according to the police commissioner.

It was two guys doing the shooting, not a 'bevy' of cops as some are suggesting.

[AtheistCrusader]

62. Yeah. That was my impression.

There should be an investigation, just to be sure, but this one looks like a dry hole in the litany of police abuse cases floating around out there.

It would be nice if it could have turned out differently, but sometimes you don't get the fairy tale ending. The time to help this man was when he was previously arrested for this sort of behavior, and either didn't get treatment, or it didn't stick for some reason.

[primavera]

70. And two professionally trained officers couldn't find a nonlethal way to subdue him

To me, this suggests that police training is either over-emphasizing lethal force as a way of responding to threats, or is not providing enough training on nonlethal methods of controlling assailants. I mean, we've got two professionals, in peak physical condition, trained (presumably) in a variety of methods for controlling and subduing suspects, with years of experience doing the same, they're probably wearing body armor and are armed to the teeth, yet the only way for them to control a stoned freak on a bad trip was to kill him? Something's not right with that picture.

[MADem]

72. I'd like to see you try it with a guy two or three feet away from you,

lunging at you with a large knife, while you're backed up against a car.

You talk a great game--why do I think you'd not be so "cool" when faced with a crazy guy trying to stick you with a huge blade at only slightly more than arm's length?

You're making assumptions not in evidence, too. Body armor on the hottest day of the year? How would that protect faces and necks, in any event? Armed to the teeth? For all you know, they were on tourist patrol in Times Square with nothing save sidearms.

That "stoned freak' did time in Rikers for a similar offense. He had an unfortunate history. He was deranged and violent.

It was sad, but I doubt very much those cops wanted to do what they had to do.

[primavera]

78. I'm not a professionally trained law enforcement officer

Hopefully those who patrol our streets in uniform are. Hopefully they have at their disposal a variety of ways of handling combative suspects. If they don't, perhaps they ought to. If they weren't wearing protective gear or carrying tools to aid them in the nonlethal suppression of suspects, perhaps they ought to have been. That's the job. The police are supposed to apprehend law breakers so that the courts can determine their fate, not be judge, jury, and executioner. I'm sorry if it's a warm day and wearing protective clothing is uncomfortable. That's the job. I don't imagine that garbage collectors are particularly comfortable on hot days either, but the job still needs to be done, preferably without killing anybody.

Of course, you're right, I wasn't there anymore than you were and I do recognize that police are occasionally required to use lethal force in order to protect themselves and the people around them. And perhaps this was such a case. All I'm saying is that such cases should be extraordinarily rare. Perhaps instances such as this one suggest some deficiency in the training and or equipment we provide to law enforcement officers if the only way they have of subduing someone is to kill them. Constables in the UK do not even carry firearms, yet they somehow manage to perform their jobs. Perhaps there is something we can learn from their example about nonlethal ways of subduing suspects.

[MADem]

87. Protective gear is no help against a knife.

Even if they had the gear on, a knife would still penetrate it.

Would you have them wear steel breast plates and helmets that covered their faces and necks?

I don't think there was any deficiency in training here.

In UK, they'd simply call an AFO (authorised firearms officer) to shoot the guy from a distance (this fiction that the police have no guns at all in UK persists, even though it isn't true). The guy would likely get there as quickly as the cops in the squad car did.

Don't think for a second that a cheery bobby would find a way to disarm that guy waving his knife at tourists--he'd be toast, but from a longer range. And use of guns by the police is not ALL that rare on the other side of the pond, particularly when you consider that the population over there isn't "packing" the way it is here:

Background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorised_Firearms_Officer

An Authorised Firearms Officer (AFO) is a British police officer who has received training and authorisation to carry and use firearms. The designation is significant because within the United Kingdom, police personnel do not routinely carry firearms. Members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, however, do routinely carry firearms due to the nature of the increased risk of armed violence. The Ministry of Defence Police, who police the UK Defence estate and personnel,[1] and the Civil Nuclear Constabulary who guard civil nuclear energy facilities also routinely carry firearms.

In the year 2007-08, there were 6,780 Authorised Firearms Officers and 21,181 police operations in which firearms were authorised throughout England and Wales.[2]

AFOs are often deployed in Armed Response Vehicles (ARV).

[X_Digger]

73. 1. "Bulletproof" vests cut like thick nylon

Typical vests that police wear stops handgun ammunition. They are little protection against stabbing.

Even so-called "stab vests" aren't reliable protection:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jun/11/ukcrime.peterwalker

A police officer stabbed to death in a main shopping street in Luton this morning was wearing a stab-resistant vest at the time, Bedfordshire police said.

2. Hollywood kung-fu flicks aren't real life. What the sensei does with a rubber knife at the dojo has about as much relationship to what happens in real life as a boxing match does to a street fight. Police are under no obligation to get cut or possibly killed, or let other people get cut to avoid hurting an assailant.

[primavera]

79. Any idea why they aren't reliable?

This article prompted me to look-up body armor on the internet yesterday. The manufacturers talk about how they use an ice-pick to test their body armor and they claim that their products can defeat even so focussed a stab attack. Is that all just marketing bullshit?

[X_Digger]

80. Body armor is always a trade-off..

Weight v protection v mobility.

Cops most frequently encounter suspects with knives and handguns. Therefore their protective gear is most likely of the kind that offers some protection against those two weapons. Perfect protection from those two would be a suit of armor like a bomb disposal team member wears- bulky, heavy, limited mobility.

In a trade off for mobility and weight, cops choose armor that covers their torso, leaving their arms, armpit, groin, neck, legs, and face uncovered. The typical armor will keep a handgun round from penetrating, by spreading out the force of such a round, causing it to mushroom laterally. It still feels like a kick in the chest, and will likely knock an officer down and frequently puts them in the hospital (bruised liver, spleen, broken ribs, etc).

As far as manufacturers claims re stabs, such body armor has a limited life. The more it's used, the more flexible the fibers become. After six to eight months, tightly woven fibers that once resisted separation (the necessary component of 'stab-proof') begin to soften. Of course none of this matters if the aggressor doesn't attack an area that's covered by the protective gear (arms, legs, etc). Nick the brachial, femoral, or carotid complexes, and death is imminent without immediate care.

[primavera]

81. Six months?!

Damn, that's not a very satisfactory product. You'd think if we could put a man on the moon, we'd be able to come up with a better solution. Oh well, thanks for the info.

[X_Digger]

82. Yeah, it's an imperfect proposition to begin with.

Until they come up with a uniform coated with a non-newtonian fluid that is flexible until struck, officers will always have to sacrifice protection for weight, mobility, and cost.

[primavera]

84. I read that a couple of manufacturers are working on nanotech armor...

... that would supposedly do just that. Apparently the Israelis are working on it. Who knows if it will work or be cost-effective, but maybe there's hope there.

[PBass]

23. I find unnecessary police violence horrendous, but in this case it appears to be necessary.

Lets get the full report, but for now (with a superficial coverage) it appears that the police were justified.

As noted above by several others, "shoot to wound" is a fantasy. For one thing, the distance where police have best accuracy is not very large (and remember this is a crowded midtown Manhattan street, with a fleeing man carrying a large knife. Spreading out isn't an option.) Police can't stand 30 yards away and be accurate. But inside the 'accuracy range' is a gap that can be closed in less than a couple of seconds, by a running man (with knife).

Shooting to wound is a fantasy, because when under pressure, shooting accuracy goes way, way down. And more importantly, even if the cops mortally wounded him (if they are shooting to kill) there are instances where a wounded assailant has still closed the gap, and injures or kills a police officer. So, aiming for the legs means a lot of missed shots (and ricochets) and the knife wielder can still attack somebody, even if he is struck. Assailants have been fatally wounded by police but because of adrenaline and momentum, they are still able to wound or kill somebody before dying. So shooting to wound is not an effective (or safe) option.

THAT is the reason the police can reasonably shoot a knife-wielding man, and call it self-defense (it seems counter-intuitive because of a perceived mismatch, but it does make sense). When somebody is wielding a knife, the police don't take it less seriously than a gun. A knife doesn't miss, or misfire. Shooters miss all the time. It also explains why the police fire multiple times (12 shots here). The goal is stopping the assailant completely, not just slowing him down.

I live in New York City. There have been numerous shootings in New York City when police seem to clearly be in the wrong, but this doesn't appear to be one of those times.

[CanonRay]

39. Thanks for saying clealy what I've been trying to say

I was doing a bad job of it. If this guy had cut or killed some innocent kid, they'd be screaming for the cops head for not doing anything to prevent it. It's just a lousy situation with no happy ending.

[SemperEadem]

31. if this backwards country had anything close to competant, adequate mental health facilities

and seeking those same mental health facilities didn't carry the stigma it still does here in the 21st century, then this man's problems would have been properly addressed a long, long time ago before he began smoking whatever his weed was laced with which caused him to manic out in Times Square. That same police force, which has no problems whipping out pepper spray on protesters are now saying the only thing they could get their mitts on was lead propelled out of gun? That sounds like incompetancy and laziness to me.

[geek tragedy]

38. They did use pepper spray, several times.

Dude was so amped up on whatever bath salts were in his weed that he shrugged it off.

[SemperEadem]

86. I wasn't disputing that point

I'm quite sure somewhere in the arms locker at the NYPD is a bean bag gun and other non-lethal devices at their disposal.

THAT was my point.

[geek tragedy]

88. Somewhere, but not in Times Square.

Bean bag guns are crowd control, not standard issue.

[SemperEadem]

89. whatever...

doesn't change the intent of my point.

[Proletariatprincess]

46. Very good points and well made.

I despair that the USA will ever join the ranks of civilized nations.

[jerseyjack]

32. From the video, there were approximately 8 cops. Two felt it was necessary to shoot.

One discharged 9 bullets. The other, 3.

That leaves 6 cops who didn't feel the need to shoot at a guy walking backwards, away from the cops.


Were there civilians within "knife charging" distance from him? No. The civilians were far enough from the scene to not be in immediate danger.

How 'bout the cops being in danger? As the hip-hop line goes, "Nigga run fast, bullet run fasta."

The shooting was unwarranted.

[geek tragedy]

37. He wasn't walking backwards when they shot him.

Moreover, if they had him surrounded, only the guys he was running at would shoot. Otherwise it's a circular firing squad.

He died because he was a violent, drug-crazed wacko with a knife in a crowded street.

[PavePusher]

48. Or it could be that 2 officers had a good, safe angle for shooting....

and the other six didn't.

And a multitude of possibilities in between.

But please, let us know what the whole unadulterated truth is, since you were apparently on scene, yes?

[NickB79]

54. The link says he was within 3 FEET of one of the officers before being shot

That officer showed amazing restraint before discharging his gun. Frankly, police officers have been written up for less than that, because it goes directly against their training to let someone behaving aggressively with a lethal weapon get that close to them.

[primavera]

71. Don't police officers carry batons, pepper spray, tasers, etc...

... and wear body armor? Aren't they trained in how to subdue violent persons? Why bother with all of that stuff if you're just going to shoot them?

[X_Digger]

75. He was pepper sprayed multiple times. No effect. n/t

[MADem]

77. Read the commissioner's statements provided upthread. nt

[SWTORFanatic]

45. I am no cop lover at all - honestly, I don't like the contacts I've had

with police (all of which were traffic stops) - that said, if they were dealing with a knife wielding suspect and all they had were guns with metal bullets and he charged at them, they should empty their guns center of mass. You can't shoot the legs or arms. That may or may not disable the suspect and they are harder targets to hit (honestly, picture a knife coming for your throat, are you going to spend the time to aim for a leg?).

That said, I wish the police came equipped a little better (maybe a volley of rubber bullets followed up by real bullets if he still charged).

[jsr]

90. Too bad nobody had a big net, or a long 2 x 4

to knock that knife away, or hit him in the legs to knock him down...

[4th law of robotics]

91. Would they have been ok if he'd been killed with only 1 bullet?

“I think it could have been done another way.”

Indeed. His family could have done a better job so this scenario never occurred.