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demmiblue

(36,860 posts)
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:57 AM Mar 2018

Democrats Are Considering Dropping Superdelegates Altogether

Source: BuzzFeed News

Democratic officials are considering a new proposal to effectively eliminate all superdelegates, a move that would go beyond recommendations put forward late last year by the commission tasked with making the party's presidential nominating process more fair.

Under the current system for choosing a Democratic nominee, around 700 people called “superdelegates” are entitled to their own delegate to award to the candidate of their choosing, regardless of votes cast — making up about 30% of the 2,382 delegates needed to clinch the party’s nomination. These superdelegates include members of the Democratic National Committee, Democratic elected officials, and "distinguished" party leaders like former presidents and vice presidents. Superdelegates were a major point of contention during the 2016 primary — with many supporters of Bernie Sanders arguing the system unfairly favored Hillary Clinton.

The Unity Reform Commission, formed by Sanders and Clinton to review the party’s nominating process, has since proposed a new system to effectively reduce superdelegates by about 60%: Elected officials and distinguished party leaders would remain “unpledged” superdelegates, able to cast their vote for any candidate. The remaining superdelegates, namely the 447 members of the DNC, would have their delegates “bound” to the their state’s primary or caucus vote. (In the case of a second round of voting at a Democratic convention — historically a rare occurrence in the party’s presidential nominating process — all superdelegates would be unbound.)

The 21 members of the Unity Reform Commission agreed upon the superdelegates proposal at a meeting in early December, following four lengthy gatherings over the course of seven months. Those recommendations then moved to the DNC's Rules and Bylaws Committee, where members were given a period of six months to put forward a set of final proposals.Democratic officials are considering a new proposal to effectively eliminate all superdelegates, a move that would go beyond recommendations put forward late last year by the commission tasked with making the party's presidential nominating process more fair.

Read more: https://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/democrats-are-weighing-a-proposal-to-eliminate?utm_term=.bxZEAWKXm#.ct3NpP3LM

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Democrats Are Considering Dropping Superdelegates Altogether (Original Post) demmiblue Mar 2018 OP
Bad idea TheSmarterDog Mar 2018 #1
How so? Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #74
Very bad idea. murielm99 Mar 2018 #77
Many superdelegates are lobbyists Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #78
Many? murielm99 Mar 2018 #85
Really? Newscorps lobbyist has longtime ties to the democratic party? Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #90
I guess you just can't trust candidates that have the support of lobbyists, can you? ehrnst Mar 2018 #192
Which Newscorp lobbyist is a super delegate? George II Mar 2018 #243
I think I've already asked this of you elsewhere, who is the "Newscorp lobbyist" who.... George II Mar 2018 #345
Do not hold your breath waiting for an answer Gothmog Mar 2018 #371
Why end super-delegates? Sophia4 Mar 2018 #146
Oh, the "status quo" ehrnst Mar 2018 #188
Or is the CBC "establishment?" mcar Mar 2018 #251
Precisely, I've NEVER seen a definition of "status quo" around here. What is it? George II Mar 2018 #344
How did super delegates impede growth and change? And here we go again with.... George II Mar 2018 #245
That's such bs. Repug cheating is why we lost the election. brush Mar 2018 #268
Crap. All this time I thought it was Jill Stein. shanny Mar 2018 #326
You are exactly right. Super delegates are not the problem. Caucuses are. LisaM Mar 2018 #176
Give it arrest...some folks employed as lobbyist are Democrats. So pure...so going to lose Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #98
If they arent officuals in the party in any other capacity, why are they superdelegates? Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #103
Some of them have long standing ties, murielm99 Mar 2018 #108
Who do they represent? Sophia4 Mar 2018 #147
Elected officials don't represent the voters? LisaM Mar 2018 #177
Elected officials can lose their positions. They should have their one vote, and that Sophia4 Mar 2018 #190
Jimmy Carter should not have a say in what my party does? Al Gore? Walter Mondale? George II Mar 2018 #266
They should not be voting delegates at the nominating convention. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #298
Actually they should, because according to the rules they can. George II Mar 2018 #307
Rules are made to be changed. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #309
No one but some splinter groups are pushing for these changes Gothmog Mar 2018 #372
I'm a Democrat. I believe in change that leads to more inclusion. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #381
I am very active in the party in the real world Gothmog Mar 2018 #385
I'm 74 now but have been very active in my local Democratic Club and Party. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #387
You are totally wrong in your analysis Gothmog Mar 2018 #391
I am opposed to having a sort of elite in the Democratic Party, and the super delegates Sophia4 Mar 2018 #393
Democrats delay change to convention superdelegates Gothmog Mar 2018 #376
This will be a big test of the sincerity of the Democrats' belief in democracy. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #380
Not in the real world Gothmog Mar 2018 #383
This message was self-deleted by its author appalachiablue Mar 2018 #389
We don't serve them. Again, you seem to be confused. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #291
You seem to be confused: Superdelegates only vote at the Convention - not on legislation. ehrnst Mar 2018 #198
I'm not confused... LisaM Mar 2018 #215
Got it: Superdelegates who are also reps don't represent their constituents at the convention. ehrnst Mar 2018 #218
This message was self-deleted by its author progressoid Mar 2018 #288
So BERNIE SANDERS a super delegate, but supers are bad why now? Eliot Rosewater Mar 2018 #222
Because REASONS! ehrnst Mar 2018 #226
African American women ARE the base of the Party. R B Garr Mar 2018 #185
What do African-American women have to do with abolishing super delegates? Sophia4 Mar 2018 #189
You dont remember your post that attacked an African R B Garr Mar 2018 #194
What post? Sophia4 Mar 2018 #195
That is exactly the point. You tried to pass off Revolution R B Garr Mar 2018 #196
What in the world are you talking about? Sophia4 Mar 2018 #202
You do know that Bernie was a Superdelegate last year, don't you? ehrnst Mar 2018 #207
You don't even know who your post #150 was addressing?? You smear her but don't R B Garr Mar 2018 #209
No. I didn't know and didn't care who the super delegate was. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #232
So you admit you did not know, but then smear R B Garr Mar 2018 #238
I do not object to any specific super delegate. They are all fine people I am sure. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #311
You are implying corruption where there is none R B Garr Mar 2018 #316
No delegate to the national convention is ever selected at the grass roots level Gothmog Mar 2018 #323
Thanks, Gothmog, your posts about the real processes R B Garr Mar 2018 #335
I live and worked in the real world Gothmog Mar 2018 #342
Have you ever attended a state convention or participated in delegate selection processs? Gothmog Mar 2018 #322
With some variations, that process is basically they way it works in other states AND.... George II Mar 2018 #339
You are correct Gothmog Mar 2018 #341
Please attend a state convention and watch the process in the real world Gothmog Mar 2018 #325
To take this one step further, no presidential candidate is ever "elected" at the state level..... George II Mar 2018 #343
Superdelegates "bring corruption"? How? George II Mar 2018 #340
Posters active in this thread are writing from Russia, one way or another, and we have to say Eliot Rosewater Mar 2018 #224
Yup, and the very same exact JPR tactics and wording as before. R B Garr Mar 2018 #240
Bernie Sanders was a Superdelegate. Why do you think he would do such a thing? ehrnst Mar 2018 #201
Bernie Sanders is a super delegate. sheshe2 Mar 2018 #303
I stand by the statements in my post. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #308
This is just not even remotely true. To say the Democrats R B Garr Mar 2018 #314
So by your very own words. sheshe2 Mar 2018 #320
"All Democratic Senators are given that rank, and the Democratic National Committee gave Sanders shanny Mar 2018 #327
He was then... sheshe2 Mar 2018 #328
That was the system then. Wasn't it? shanny Mar 2018 #331
I think the electoral college needs to be changed. sheshe2 Mar 2018 #337
I'd like to see an answer to these good questions mcar Mar 2018 #333
You mean like a caucus member has a more powerful vote than an average voter? ehrnst Mar 2018 #191
Some Superdelegates are Senators - Like Bernie Sanders ehrnst Mar 2018 #199
ALL non-elected-official super delegates are DNC members and virtually all are Democrats. George II Mar 2018 #241
"They include lobbyists from... Rupert Murdoch's news corp." Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #79
And how many of them are there? murielm99 Mar 2018 #87
Yes. They were chosen. That is what the article says. Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #89
Which Superdelegates are "lobbyists for FoxNews?" ehrnst Mar 2018 #203
The Silence is significant Gothmog Mar 2018 #348
They are registered Democrats and worked in the party for years...they work at Fox... Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #99
They are registered lobbyists for newscorps Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #101
OMG Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #105
ROFL murielm99 Mar 2018 #109
Sanders will never do that but his followers can be educated, maybe. Eliot Rosewater Mar 2018 #135
The Democratic Party is ending superdelegates Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #137
That has not happened yet. murielm99 Mar 2018 #139
It is a decision they are leaning towards and making clear is more likely than not. Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #141
What a shame, if that happens. murielm99 Mar 2018 #143
Why criticize the party? Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #144
WTF are you talking about? murielm99 Mar 2018 #151
When did they say that they are ending superdelegates? ehrnst Mar 2018 #220
The GOP doesn't have supers but they have winner take all primaries which are less Democratic in Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #365
I enthusiastically second this post. Look to where the super delegate scolding is coming from. NBachers Mar 2018 #140
I for one raised thousands for Hillary and canvassed for her regularly Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #142
This message was self-deleted by its author ehrnst Mar 2018 #211
I am so sick of them...really. I would never vote for any Our Revolution candidate Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #229
I agree. murielm99 Mar 2018 #353
And the coup causes some to think that if only we ran a progressive...well first of Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #355
She was not elected by Democratic voters. She should not be a delegate. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #150
Your whole degrading description of her isn't even remotely accurate. R B Garr Mar 2018 #174
You seem to be confused about how delegates get to be delegates. ehrnst Mar 2018 #221
She is quite remarkable and has run for office and donates and as every right to be a delegate. Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #234
I oppose any and all super delegates. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #235
Including Bernie Sanders? (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #301
silence. sheshe2 Mar 2018 #305
Can I answer for/in place of her? KPN Mar 2018 #352
Bernie Sanders is a super delegate. R B Garr Mar 2018 #317
WAS. Is no longer. George II Mar 2018 #347
Good point. He is not a Democrat after all. nt R B Garr Mar 2018 #363
And that means what...I like super delegates. It means we never get a 'Trump' and no Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #360
Who chooses the super delegates? First, regardless of what you say.... George II Mar 2018 #279
All delegates to conventions that nominate candidates should be chosen in elections. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #310
This is not how the process works in the real world Gothmog Mar 2018 #349
No super delegates. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #350
The real world is a nice place Gothmog Mar 2018 #351
All delegates to conventions that nominate candidates should be chosen in accordance.... George II Mar 2018 #364
Your posts show that you have no idea as to how the process works in the real world Gothmog Mar 2018 #329
Have you ever been a super delegate? Sophia4 Mar 2018 #330
How is that relevant? LOL Gothmog Mar 2018 #332
And she's on the board of GREEN AMERICA!!! She must be a real sleaze... ehrnst Mar 2018 #216
Oh...well that is it ...green causes too...why why she must go of course. (Sarcasm) Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #225
Status quo!!11 Establishment!! 11 Oligarch!!11 mcar Mar 2018 #253
So, why do you think Bernie Sanders agreed to be a Superdelegate? ehrnst Mar 2018 #210
Actually, no she doesn't "work at Fox," that seems to be wild speculation by some here. ehrnst Mar 2018 #230
I guess the person who sweeps the floor or cleans the bathrooms at Fox.... George II Mar 2018 #366
Oh look - here's that NewsCorp "FoxNews" Lobbyist.... She's evil, this one... ehrnst Mar 2018 #206
That's it, I am fucking DONE with the RUSSIAN ASSETS posting on DU. Eliot Rosewater Mar 2018 #227
Shame on them! mcar Mar 2018 #254
Guardian is now reporting Reddit full of them Eliot Rosewater Mar 2018 #256
Reedit. Ugh. mcar Mar 2018 #257
And there's this "evil lobbyist" as well... lapucelle Mar 2018 #299
Funny how an employee of an organization becomes a "lobbyist" for that organization. George II Mar 2018 #318
What delegate was a lobbyist for News Corp? George II Mar 2018 #313
Most superdelegates are elected officials and party leaders Gothmog Mar 2018 #116
Superdelegates are not needed. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #153
You are totally and utterly wrong Gothmog Mar 2018 #155
We shall have to agree to disagree. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #159
But we do need African American voters Gothmog Mar 2018 #165
We need African-American voters. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #181
So lets alienated these voters by adopting this rather dumb plan Gothmog Mar 2018 #197
How about more people that worked in the trenches being allowed to be delegates MichMan Mar 2018 #265
Few people in the trenches are pushing for this change Gothmog Mar 2018 #278
Actually... sheshe2 Mar 2018 #312
Do you support getting rid of caucuses and open primaries? LisaM Mar 2018 #178
Caucuses yes. Open primaries yes. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #179
I don't understand your response, sorry. LisaM Mar 2018 #183
I support getting rid of caucuses that serve as primaries and super delegates. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #193
I'll tell you why I support super delegates. LisaM Mar 2018 #205
As one who has worked for years in the trenches, I love your post Gothmog Mar 2018 #208
Thanks. I feel very passionately about it. LisaM Mar 2018 #214
In 2008, Texas had the Texas two step which was a combination of primary and caucus Gothmog Mar 2018 #239
Washington had primaries in 2008 and 2016 that didn't count, but they had to hold them by law. LisaM Mar 2018 #248
I saw that on the news Gothmog Mar 2018 #262
They're attached to them for historical reasons, but they've changed. LisaM Mar 2018 #271
Texas was attached to the Texas two step but the DNC killed it Gothmog Mar 2018 #275
I've been to state conventions and they ARE fun. LisaM Mar 2018 #280
I have been to several state conventions Gothmog Mar 2018 #284
+1000 (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #302
Caucuses and superdelegates should both be eliminated Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #160
I agree with you on caucuses but I support the CBC Gothmog Mar 2018 #168
undemocratic methods should not be included in our primaries. Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #169
So letting elected party officials be delegates to the national convention is offensive Gothmog Mar 2018 #172
They were not elected as superdelegates to give a vote for their candidate Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #173
You do realize that under party rules, I could change my vote at any time Gothmog Mar 2018 #175
Well there would be Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #180
By what process would that pledged delegate be removed? ehrnst Mar 2018 #187
Read the party rules Gothmog Mar 2018 #200
Well, I guess that we shouldn't believe everything we think. ehrnst Mar 2018 #217
I ran and was elected as a delegate to the 2016 convention and so I paid attention to the rules Gothmog Mar 2018 #231
Why do you think that the Congressional Black Caucus would want "undemocratic methods?" ehrnst Mar 2018 #186
Well aren't they all super delegates themselves ? MichMan Mar 2018 #267
So was Bernie. ehrnst Mar 2018 #270
Well if it isn't about giving up their status , it might be this..... MichMan Mar 2018 #272
So you don't know, but you are willing to assume certain motives ehrnst Mar 2018 #274
Are you a member of the CBC? MichMan Mar 2018 #276
You were asked why you thought the Caucus supported keeping Superdelegates ehrnst Mar 2018 #285
obama would never have won the nomination w/o caucuses questionseverything Mar 2018 #378
It was Obama and the DNC that eliminated the Texas Two Step in 2016 Gothmog Mar 2018 #392
Talking about how the Black Congressional Caucus doesn't "understand" the system. ehrnst Mar 2018 #212
Because any outside agency could literally take over the Party. TheSmarterDog Mar 2018 #223
Agreed rock Mar 2018 #110
The we should eliminate caucuses which are very undemocratic Gothmog Mar 2018 #118
Yes please lagomorph777 Mar 2018 #122
Agreed Tiggeroshii Mar 2018 #149
A very bad idea mcar Mar 2018 #250
Good Idea HopeAgain Mar 2018 #2
Yes, glad to see they're following Bernie's lead on this. InAbLuEsTaTe Mar 2018 #283
Good idea when it was instituted. Good idea to drop totally now. marble falls Mar 2018 #3
Super delegates are really a non factor NewJeffCT Mar 2018 #4
If a non factor, then why keep them? HopeAgain Mar 2018 #6
Exactly! chwaliszewski Mar 2018 #17
One reason is so we don't get a trump. The repugs wish that they had had super delegates. brush Mar 2018 #61
That's baloney -- We are not Republicans HopeAgain Mar 2018 #66
They support him because he's what the party came up with brush Mar 2018 #70
And how did that work for us??? HopeAgain Mar 2018 #72
We got the candidate who got the most votes in the primary and the general. brush Mar 2018 #73
Sure if you want to get way off the subject. nt HopeAgain Mar 2018 #75
The subject was super delegates, right? Hillary got her early lead in them because Sanders... brush Mar 2018 #81
And were off with Bernie Sanders and race (again) HopeAgain Mar 2018 #88
Did you not get the part about making sure POCs are included in a reduced amont of... brush Mar 2018 #92
Frankly, if we get a Trump-like HopeAgain Mar 2018 #95
I don't think that will happen. The super delegate structure was designed to protect against that. brush Mar 2018 #100
I just think there has to be a better way HopeAgain Mar 2018 #106
Your suggestion is to abolish it? Super delegates are not there to protect POC voters, they're... brush Mar 2018 #138
Exactly, protection against a disastrous Trump event. Hortensis Mar 2018 #71
Knew this argument would be made. KPN Mar 2018 #91
What do you think almost happened in 2016? A non-Dem who but for not campaigning... brush Mar 2018 #94
That candidate did campaign in Texas even though he did poorly Gothmog Mar 2018 #242
Texas? brush Mar 2018 #255
Yep Gothmog Mar 2018 #258
Because key demographics groups like the CBC want to retain super delegates Gothmog Mar 2018 #120
Well said. harun Mar 2018 #164
Bingo!!!!! InAbLuEsTaTe Mar 2018 #286
In 2008, top political allies of Obama made the point that the superdelegates would respect and not karynnj Mar 2018 #36
Yes, the problem was 2016. Very interestingly, in 2008 Hortensis Mar 2018 #76
Except the majority vote makes no sense in the primaries karynnj Mar 2018 #111
All teams know they can potentially lose. Obama's Hortensis Mar 2018 #119
Of course karynnj Mar 2018 #128
Clinton also talked about what might be called the electoral college map. StevieM Mar 2018 #304
It is true there were not many elections after 1972 when the rules changed karynnj Mar 2018 #346
There were substantial efforts made to flip even pledged delegates by the Sanders people Gothmog Mar 2018 #244
Pretty stupid derisive effort karynnj Mar 2018 #277
I mean members of the Sanders delegation to the national convention Gothmog Mar 2018 #282
I wonder what difference it made when after a couple of primaries LiberalArkie Mar 2018 #53
they announced that Clinton had won in 2008 as well NewJeffCT Mar 2018 #57
That alone wasn't why it was extremely unlikely for Hortensis Mar 2018 #86
I think you may not be remembering things as they happened. "All the superdelegates?" ehrnst Mar 2018 #233
I guess I missed that announcement. George II Mar 2018 #247
Those claims are false Gothmog Mar 2018 #252
Big difference in media coverage of SD's in 2008 and 2016 Fiendish Thingy Mar 2018 #67
As I said above NewJeffCT Mar 2018 #82
Created a narrative or did not 100 percent buy the Clinton narrative? karynnj Mar 2018 #121
Virtually all the media reports I saw separated them out. George II Mar 2018 #249
Not in 2016 Fiendish Thingy Mar 2018 #295
"a narrative of inevitability and an insurmountable lead" ehrnst Mar 2018 #300
During the general, absolutely, but the MSM wanted HRC to be the nominee Fiendish Thingy Mar 2018 #334
I think you are ignoring the long history of biased media coverage against HRC. ehrnst Mar 2018 #354
I have no blanket trust in any particular media source Fiendish Thingy Mar 2018 #367
So Reuters, AP, Propublica, WaPo. CBC, BBC and the Guardian ehrnst Mar 2018 #368
I would say WaPo is certainly part of the MSM narrative crafting machine Fiendish Thingy Mar 2018 #369
WOW - A change? Smitty63nnn Mar 2018 #5
except that it's not a stacked deck, superdelegates have never overturned the voters CreekDog Mar 2018 #20
But they could conceivably influence turnout or who people vote for. femmedem Mar 2018 #28
it could conceivably do that, but it hasn't done it yet CreekDog Mar 2018 #39
Femmedem, conversely 0 of Sanders colleagues endorsed him. Hortensis Mar 2018 #97
No, I'm not suggesting that at all. femmedem Mar 2018 #281
Seems to me you wanted to erase advantage of Hortensis Mar 2018 #379
Good argument for getting rid of them. KPN Mar 2018 #93
This is a proposal only and has not been adopted Gothmog Mar 2018 #246
What are you even talking about? N/T lapucelle Mar 2018 #377
How are they going to accomplish one of the goals -- which was to make sure that POC pnwmom Mar 2018 #7
All you'll get on that question is dead silence. Wwcd Mar 2018 #12
call superdelegates non-voting guests of the convention CreekDog Mar 2018 #21
I dunno, maybe just select POC as regular delegates? MichMan Mar 2018 #40
Winner! LongTomH Mar 2018 #56
Make the Democratic party safeinOhio Mar 2018 #8
I agree. We need to get rid of caucuses. No question, they're the least Democratic way to choose a ehrnst Mar 2018 #11
YES, get rid of the damn caucuses.. Cha Mar 2018 #30
i think we should shift to primaries where they're available, though many places they aren't CreekDog Mar 2018 #41
You mentioned Washington angrychair Mar 2018 #59
Caucuses are not democratic and are easy to game Gothmog Mar 2018 #123
Not necessarily angrychair Mar 2018 #60
It saves the state money - that's the purpose. ehrnst Mar 2018 #104
You link only re-enforces my points angrychair Mar 2018 #114
I think it's worse. ehrnst Mar 2018 #117
Clarification angrychair Mar 2018 #131
I'm not arguing against a voter holiday... why do you think I am? (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #133
I dont think that you are necessarily angrychair Mar 2018 #148
A federal election holiday only applies to federal employees. tammywammy Mar 2018 #315
A federal holiday is a federal holiday angrychair Mar 2018 #319
Exactly which is why making voting a holiday doesnt solve anything. tammywammy Mar 2018 #321
Were obviously talking to cross purposes angrychair Mar 2018 #338
I agree with that. Primaries with a nice, long voting period and easy drop-off ballots would PatrickforO Mar 2018 #52
Now THERE'S a concept!! InAbLuEsTaTe Mar 2018 #289
I guess they've decided to ignore the Black Congressional Caucus. ehrnst Mar 2018 #9
Sanders collides with black lawmakers Gothmog Mar 2018 #124
Not going to see many Black Caucus Members from Vermont. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #125
That may explain a great deal as to why one group wants to get rid of superdelegates Gothmog Mar 2018 #130
Yep. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #134
I think that it does. nt sheshe2 Mar 2018 #396
I'm glad the CBC also addressed the abuse of the open primary system. lapucelle Mar 2018 #324
The snowflakes are winning. joshcryer Mar 2018 #158
This move has the lingering stench of Tad Devine. Wwcd Mar 2018 #10
... ehrnst Mar 2018 #13
"erosion of democracy's protections"? progressoid Mar 2018 #26
Yes, it does indeed. leftofcool Mar 2018 #32
The indies brought Devine's corrupt way of business into 2015/16. Wwcd Mar 2018 #38
I'd fight to get rid of caucus' first leftynyc Mar 2018 #14
I don't think you'll be able to do that in every case though CreekDog Mar 2018 #23
Understood leftynyc Mar 2018 #65
I was OK with the Unity Proposal Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #15
I have to break with the crowd. I think it's a good idea. Vinca Mar 2018 #16
I'm in solid agreement with you. dchill Mar 2018 #19
So am I True Blue American Mar 2018 #24
That is a bit of a loaded statement.. Wwcd Mar 2018 #33
I say reduce the number but keep some protection against a trump-like candidate. The repugs... brush Mar 2018 #62
You mean like in caucuses? (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #213
Not just caucuses, but primaries, too. Vinca Mar 2018 #260
Anyone who voted for Hillary in Indiana got their vote negated in the General. ehrnst Mar 2018 #263
That's not the point and Bernie isn't the point. Any candidate should face an unweighted delegate Vinca Mar 2018 #269
Let them go to the convention but don't let them vote CreekDog Mar 2018 #18
although i'm open to the idea of not having Superdelegates vote... CreekDog Mar 2018 #22
Congressional Black Caucus balks at two political reforms being pitched by Bernie Sanders Gothmog Mar 2018 #127
Good. CentralMass Mar 2018 #25
So they want to get rid of SDs, that have never mattered when it comes to the nom, but all american girl Mar 2018 #27
+++ sheshe2 Mar 2018 #397
GOOD shanny Mar 2018 #29
Superdelagates The Wizard Mar 2018 #31
Caucauses are the problem. Not SD's. Wwcd Mar 2018 #37
superdelegates is a totally undemocratic idea, like the electoral college. tomp Mar 2018 #34
The best rule change we could make? yallerdawg Mar 2018 #35
Go bernie garybeck Mar 2018 #42
Now THAT's for damn sure! yallerdawg Mar 2018 #45
I am biting my tongue here. sheshe2 Mar 2018 #398
We have to be "good" and follow the TOS guidelines, she. yallerdawg Mar 2018 #402
I remember it well, yallerdawg. sheshe2 Mar 2018 #403
Without a doubt, but as the old saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished. InAbLuEsTaTe Mar 2018 #287
That's a great one.. they Cha Mar 2018 #43
That's for sure, Cha! yallerdawg Mar 2018 #47
And, he was Cha Mar 2018 #48
Yes!! murielm99 Mar 2018 #80
Agreed Gothmog Mar 2018 #126
How about this headline instead? "SOME Democrats are considering". still_one Mar 2018 #44
Tired of this argument HopeAgain Mar 2018 #58
Just a simple observation. During the primaries trump got about 25% of the republican vote with still_one Mar 2018 #102
Superdelegates are needed until the party tightens up its qualifications on who's allowed to run... NurseJackie Mar 2018 #46
I'm With You Me. Mar 2018 #84
ICAM! lunamagica Mar 2018 #163
Thank you. Tarheel_Dem Mar 2018 #356
I am with you 100%, Jackie. sheshe2 Mar 2018 #399
Good... LovingA2andMI Mar 2018 #49
At our local precinct caucus we passed proposal to do away with SD--again this year randr Mar 2018 #50
What are SDs? I went to the caucus in Colorado. Not many people there just PatrickforO Mar 2018 #54
Oh, duh. Super Delegates. PatrickforO Mar 2018 #55
Get rid of them left-of-center2012 Mar 2018 #51
This is a good move Devil Child Mar 2018 #63
Black Caucus plans to defend Democrats' use of superdelegates Gothmog Mar 2018 #132
Super Delegates are not space aliens. We elected them. IADEMO2004 Mar 2018 #64
Yes they are "special" HopeAgain Mar 2018 #68
The super delegates are the convention eye candy dembotoz Mar 2018 #69
Aside From The Sanders Campaign Me. Mar 2018 #83
Nope. Tad Devine knew exactly how to break the Dem Party Wwcd Mar 2018 #113
I May Be Wrong About This Me. Mar 2018 #152
He knew how to undo it also. Wwcd Mar 2018 #154
I Too Am Wondering Me. Mar 2018 #157
Google Was My Friend Me. Mar 2018 #156
No Gothmog Mar 2018 #129
very bad idea, but if they do it...need to include winner take all primaries and no Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #96
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ still_one Mar 2018 #112
Thank You! Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #359
There are no winner take all primaries under Democratic Party rules Gothmog Mar 2018 #236
Well we have to change those rule because consider what would happen if no Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #357
In the real world, this change is not needed Gothmog Mar 2018 #361
I agree...but if you lose the supers...there is little choice because anyone close election could Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #362
This thread is based on a discussion of a proposed rule Gothmog Mar 2018 #370
I think it's a good idea, so that means it probably won't happen. Establishment Dems run the show. YOHABLO Mar 2018 #107
Congressional Black Caucus: Keep superdelegate system in place Gothmog Mar 2018 #115
Wait a minute. That was summer 2016 when Sanders KPN Mar 2018 #162
Yes they do Gothmog Mar 2018 #166
Okay. But why? What's their rationale? KPN Mar 2018 #170
I ran and was elected as a delegate to the 2016 convention Gothmog Mar 2018 #171
Interesting and cool! Actually, I would like to hear what their rationale is. KPN Mar 2018 #184
There is no lack of faith in our membership as to the party rules Gothmog Mar 2018 #237
I didn't make that claim. What I said is KPN Mar 2018 #294
You are wrong about the reasons for super delegates Gothmog Mar 2018 #373
Not true. As I have always understood it, KPN Mar 2018 #386
No, you are still wrong Gothmog Mar 2018 #394
And I said already that if that's the concern KPN Mar 2018 #395
The 2016 spectacle of Hillary losing the GE while winning the popular vote Zambero Mar 2018 #136
Superdelegates undercut the argument of one person - one vote. A superdelegate votes in the primary 24601 Mar 2018 #161
Let's hope they do drop super-delegates. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #145
Why do you want to run off African American voters? Gothmog Mar 2018 #167
Why do you conflate and assume support of the Unity Reofrm Council's superdelagate proposal Devil Child Mar 2018 #219
This thread is not about the Unity Commission proposal but a different proposal Gothmog Mar 2018 #228
Why are superdelegates required in order to have AA delegates? MichMan Mar 2018 #261
I have not seen any grassroots support for these proposals Gothmog Mar 2018 #290
some animals are more equal than others...eh? questionseverything Mar 2018 #382
Members of the CBC represent voters who are key parts of the democratic base Gothmog Mar 2018 #384
elected officials are public servants,nothing else questionseverything Mar 2018 #388
Elected officials are leaders of the party and should be respected Gothmog Mar 2018 #390
I find it offensive sheshe2 Mar 2018 #400
it is a quote from ANIMAL FARM..ya know the classic used to teach us that unchecked power always questionseverything Mar 2018 #404
We have no right to complain about the Electoral College if Orange Free State Mar 2018 #182
The proposed change is simply a proposed change Gothmog Mar 2018 #204
The NPVI compact Orange Free State Mar 2018 #264
A friend in the Texas legislature proposed it but this did not get out of committee Gothmog Mar 2018 #273
that's the most hopeful news about the party in a while. yurbud Mar 2018 #259
Please God budkin Mar 2018 #292
I wonder why BS didn't turn the DNC down lapucelle Mar 2018 #293
Maybe if the GOP had SDs it would have saved them from Trump... samnsara Mar 2018 #296
Given their way of doing things Orange Free State Mar 2018 #297
That would be a good move. KPN Mar 2018 #306
Good, its time Champion Jack Mar 2018 #336
Do you think that two-thirds of the DNC will approve this plan over the objections of the CBC? Gothmog Mar 2018 #374
Worst! Idea! Ever! Tarheel_Dem Mar 2018 #358
As I have been predicting, this rule change will not be adopted anytime soon Gothmog Mar 2018 #375
Excellent. Caucuses and superdelegates need to go. aikoaiko Mar 2018 #401

murielm99

(30,745 posts)
85. Many?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:19 PM
Mar 2018

The people cited in the article have long standing ties to the Democratic party. They have gone to work as lobbyists after running for office or holding office. They are still Democrats, who hold with the principles of our party. I find article slanted.

I could cite the same article and make objections to it because so many people being considered as super delegates have ties to Bernie Sanders, who is not a Democrat. Sanders and his people are the ones who made the big stink about super delegates. The system works just fine.

The problem is caucuses. We need to get rid of those. The states that have them are mostly fine with them because they are cheap. They do not want to have to pay for primaries, which cost more. Maybe more state parties will have to consider paying for primaries themselves.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
192. I guess you just can't trust candidates that have the support of lobbyists, can you?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:20 PM
Mar 2018

Barack Obama refused donations from Lobbyists, but others, not so much.


https://www.publicintegrity.org/2016/03/09/19405/lobbyists-who-love-bernie-sanders

George II

(67,782 posts)
345. I think I've already asked this of you elsewhere, who is the "Newscorp lobbyist" who....
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:49 PM
Mar 2018

...is/was a super delegate?

Do you know how many super delegates are active lobbyists? The answer might shock and amaze you.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
146. Why end super-delegates?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:03 PM
Mar 2018

Because they impeded growth and change in the Party. They represent the past, the status quo and sometimes very simply -- money.

Their votes push the Party into the past.

We need to be the Party of the future.

I think ending the super-delegates' power is a first step toward allowing change that is a natural part of politics to flourish in the Democratic Party.

No to super-delegates. We don't need them. They are part of our problem when it comes to winning elections.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
188. Oh, the "status quo"
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:15 PM
Mar 2018

The label that no one seems to be able to define.

I guess the Black Congressional Caucus is the "status quo" now.

They'll be surprised to hear that.

George II

(67,782 posts)
245. How did super delegates impede growth and change? And here we go again with....
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:57 PM
Mar 2018

..."the status quo". What is the status quo that you refer to?

All these catch phrases and buzz words.

People should look into the rationale and reasoning behind why they were created in the first place.

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
176. You are exactly right. Super delegates are not the problem. Caucuses are.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:50 PM
Mar 2018

This news bothers me enormously. Super delegates provide a safety net. It also rewards long-time party activists.

The people who don't want super delegates probably also support open primaries and caucuses, and don't really want the party to pick its own candidate.

Eff this idea.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
98. Give it arrest...some folks employed as lobbyist are Democrats. So pure...so going to lose
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:44 PM
Mar 2018

if we follow such nonsense.

murielm99

(30,745 posts)
108. Some of them have long standing ties,
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:56 PM
Mar 2018

or have held office in the past. They may continue to be activists, like Dan Hynes, who was state comptroller here, and ran for other offices.

Our big bad terrible super delegates in Illinois include Barack Obama, Dick Durbin and Tammy Duckworth. Such awful people!

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
147. Who do they represent?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:05 PM
Mar 2018

Not the voters.

Not the future.

They represent big money and the past. And we don't need them in the Democratic Party.

We need to be the Party of the future, of solutions to the problems that were created in the past. We need to be the Party of the people, not of money.

I do not want super delegates. I want to be the Party of the future, the party of solutions.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
190. Elected officials can lose their positions. They should have their one vote, and that
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:17 PM
Mar 2018

is it. The super delegates make our Party's conventions into a joke.

The elected officials represent themselves until the next election when their seat is up for a vote. They should have not special right to vote in the Democratic convention. They serve us, not us them.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
298. They should not be voting delegates at the nominating convention.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:58 PM
Mar 2018

They can have a say in all kinds of ways including voting on other things. But they should not have a vote with regard to nominees.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
309. Rules are made to be changed.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:50 PM
Mar 2018

The rules were changed after the Viet Nam War to allow super delegates. They can be changed back to rid our Party of them. We don't need them. They shouldn't exist.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
372. No one but some splinter groups are pushing for these changes
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 03:16 PM
Mar 2018

You do realize that these rules changes will require the vote of two-thirds of the delegates at the DNC meeting. I personally consider the opinions of the CBC to be far more important compared to he views of the people pushing for this change. The real world is a nice place and I like living in it.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
381. I'm a Democrat. I believe in change that leads to more inclusion.
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 05:13 PM
Mar 2018

If these rules had been followed in the 1960s, African-Americans would not have the voice they now have in the Democratic Party -- especially in the South.

The Democrats in the South at that time were in many cases, racists.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
385. I am very active in the party in the real world
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 06:34 PM
Mar 2018

Last edited Sat Mar 10, 2018, 07:59 PM - Edit history (1)

In the real world the CBC and the voters the CBC represent are also Democrats. I care more about these groups compared to the fringe groups pushing this proposal.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
387. I'm 74 now but have been very active in my local Democratic Club and Party.
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 06:40 PM
Mar 2018

I care about the Democratic Party and want to see it become more inclusive.

Super delegates are a threat to democracy within the Democratic Party.

Being active in the Democratic Party does not entitle anyone to an extra voice.

I am reminded of the corruption in our government that Theodore Roosevelt fought.

Super delegates are a reminder of the way corruption justifies itself.

Super delegates are not needed and should not exist. They lend a putrid odor to the Democratic Party. They are a sign of corruption.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
391. You are totally wrong in your analysis
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 07:49 PM
Mar 2018

I have been very active in the party including attending several state conventions, helping run county/senate district conventions, being a national delegate, running war rooms for voter protection operations and working on state party committees on issues like voter protection and the rules committee. I have seen how hard people like Chairman Hinojosa and vice chair Fredericka Philips work. I have worked with Congressman Al Green on voter id and voter protection projects. I am friends with Sheila Jackson Lee (our sons were in school together) and other super delegates. There is a ton of work involved that helps the party.

Being a leader in the party takes a ton of work. I see nothing wrong with these party leaders having a role at the national convention. I live and work up close with people who are actual super delegates. I also value the opinion of the CBC and the voters who are represented by members of the CBC. I can tell you that alienating and insulting the CBC is not a good idea if you want support from African American voters. Again, Doug Jones won his senate race in deep red Alabama due to these voters https://www.npr.org/2017/12/13/570531505/black-votes-matter-african-americans-propel-jones-to-alabama-win

You dislike super delegates because some fringe groups think that some super delegates were mean to your candidate. That does not matter to me. The existence of super delegates is not corrupt as that term in used in the real world.

I would like to make the process better but the wholesale elimination of super delegates is something that I do not support.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
393. I am opposed to having a sort of elite in the Democratic Party, and the super delegates
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 08:32 PM
Mar 2018

form such an elite.

I think the strength of the Democratic Party is in its grassroots members.

Most people have to work and volunteer for Democratic Party in addition to their jobs.

TV is still very important, but it is decreasingly a means to communicate with voters. (It will gradually become less important than the internet when it comes to politics.) It is essential that the grassroots volunteers be the primary moving force in the Democratic Party because they can communicate one on one with voters and counter the conservative control of television and radio which will increase in time.

It is already a problem that unions have declined in numbers and influence. They used to be the bedrock support of the Democratic Party. I remember how, when it came close to elections, we in the local campaign headquarters were happy, excited even, when the union members joined us for canvassing. They could do so much. It was amazing.

I note that in 2016, a lot of people who would have voted for Democrats because of their union loyalties instead voted for Trump. That is an absolutely deplorable development for the Democratic Party.

The super delegates make it easier for "professional" political advisors to take over and lead the Party. The energy of union rank and file members is not so important if you have "competent" professional advisors running the show.

That is very dangerous for the Democratic Party as it leads to an "in-crowd" and an "out-crowd" at least in feeling, and it places unions and union members in a subordinate role in our party.

The Democratic Party needs to be the party of the people, especially of working people.

The elite class of super delegates makes a mockery of the ideals of the Democratic Party.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
376. Democrats delay change to convention superdelegates
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 04:24 PM
Mar 2018

There are good reasons to keep the superdelegates http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/377733-democrats-delay-change-to-convention-superdelegates


There are DNC members who want to remove superdelegates from the Democratic Convention’s first ballot altogether, allowing the candidate with the majority of pledged delegates earned through the primaries and caucuses to win the nomination.

Other DNC members believe they have earned their uncommitted vote through years of participation in the party.

Any proposal to change the power of superdelegates would need two-thirds support from the DNC’s 447 members to pass.

The committee has until June 2018 to complete its work, "which includes the crafting of any rules, bylaws, or charter amendments necessary to implement the major reforms agreed upon," according to a DNC press release. Those measures will then go to the full DNC for consideration this summer.
 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
380. This will be a big test of the sincerity of the Democrats' belief in democracy.
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 05:11 PM
Mar 2018

Is it democracy or a system of rewards to the winners of past elections?

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
383. Not in the real world
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 06:23 PM
Mar 2018

The only people in favor of this proposals are some fringe groups who supported sanders. Many regular democrats do not care about this so called issue.

I care far more about he opinions of the CBC compared to the opinions of these fringe groups

Response to Sophia4 (Reply #309)

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
198. You seem to be confused: Superdelegates only vote at the Convention - not on legislation.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:30 PM
Mar 2018

Bernie Sanders was a Superdelegate, so he didn't always think that power was corrupt.

Superdelegates are unpledged delegates to the Democratic convention, meaning that they aren’t beholden to the results from primaries and the caucuses (the way pledged delegates are). They are, for the most part, current and former Democratic politicians. Former President Bill Clinton is a superdelegate; so is current Sen. Bernie Sanders.

They make up 15 percent of all delegates (714 out of 4,765) – down from 20 percent in 2008. And they are free to support the presidential candidate of their choice at the convention. According to NBC News’ latest count, Clinton leads Sanders in superdelegates, 460-38. One catch: Superdelegates have to be present at the convention for their vote to count.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-18/democrats-plan-to-name-lobbyists-operatives-as-superdelegates

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
215. I'm not confused...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:00 PM
Mar 2018

I was responding to someone who said super delegates don't represent voters, but, since many of them were elected by voters, I just beg to differ with that.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
218. Got it: Superdelegates who are also reps don't represent their constituents at the convention.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:10 PM
Mar 2018

The represent their own vote as a superdelegate.

Bernie Sanders didn't represent the choice of citizens of Vermont's choice when he voted as a Superdelegate at the Convention, he voted for who he wanted to be the candidate.

Response to LisaM (Reply #215)

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
185. African American women ARE the base of the Party.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:06 PM
Mar 2018

No reason to smear them with ludicrous falsities about them representing big money just because they are active members who dared to support someone other than Bernie. Those talking points lost big. You should take your own advice and move on — move on from the losing past of smearing good Democrats.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
189. What do African-American women have to do with abolishing super delegates?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:15 PM
Mar 2018

I'm all for African-American women being strong in the Democratic Party.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
194. You dont remember your post that attacked an African
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:21 PM
Mar 2018

American woman? That is just proof that these empty talking points are just platitudes. In your haste to attack super delegates, you didn’t really care who was the target. That is the problem with promoting empty rhetoric—just saying “big money” doesn’t make it true. It’s really just propaganda, which lost years ago now.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
196. That is exactly the point. You tried to pass off Revolution
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:24 PM
Mar 2018

platitudes as if they are one-size-fits-all and they are not. So your attacks on super delegates apparently are not well supported.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
202. What in the world are you talking about?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:35 PM
Mar 2018

I think super delegates should be abolished.

They are a Tammany-Hall tradition. They bring corruption. They stink. I do not like super delegates.

I remember sitting on my father's lap listening to a Democratic national convention when I was nine. There were no super delegates. There was a lot of wheeling and dealing which my father explained to me. It hooked me on politics.

Here is some of the history of super delegates.

After the 1968 Democratic National Convention, at which pro-Vietnam War liberal Hubert Humphrey was nominated for the presidency despite not running in a single primary election, the Democratic Party made changes in its delegate selection process to correct what was seen as "illusory" control of the nomination process by primary voters.[15] A commission headed by South Dakota Senator George McGovern and Minnesota Representative Donald M. Fraser met in 1969 and 1970 to make the composition of the Democratic Party's nominating convention less subject to control by party leaders and more responsive to the votes cast in primary elections.

The rules implemented by the McGovern-Fraser Commission shifted the balance of power to primary elections and caucuses, mandating that all delegates be chosen via mechanisms open to all party members.[15] As a result of this change the number of primaries more than doubled over the next three presidential election cycles, from 17 in 1968 to 35 in 1980.[15] Despite the radically increased level of primary participation, with 32 million voters taking part in the selection process by 1980, the Democrats proved largely unsuccessful at the ballot box, with the 1972 presidential campaign of McGovern and the 1980 re-election campaign of Jimmy Carter resulting in landslide defeats.[15] Democratic Party affiliation skidded from 41 percent of the electorate at the time of the McGovern-Fraser Commission report to just 31 percent in the aftermath of the 1980 electoral debacle.[15]

Further soul-searching took place among party leaders, who argued that the pendulum had swung too far in the direction of primary elections over insider decision-making, with one May 1981 California white paper declaring that the Democratic Party had "lost its leadership, collective vision and ties with the past," resulting in the nomination of unelectable candidates.[16] A new 70-member commission headed by Governor of North Carolina Jim Hunt was appointed to further refine the Democratic Party's nomination process, attempting to balance the wishes of rank-and-file Democrats with the collective wisdom of party leaders and to thereby avoid the nomination of insurgent candidates exemplified by the liberal McGovern or the anti-Washington conservative Carter and lessening the potential influence of single-issue politics in the selection process.[16]

Following a series of meetings held from August 1981 to February 1982, the Hunt Commission issued a report which recommended the set aside of unelected and unpledged delegate slots for Democratic members of Congress and for state party chairs and vice chairs (so-called "superdelegates&quot .[16] With the original Hunt plan, superdelegates were to represent 30% of all delegates to the national convention, but when it was finally implemented by the Democratic National Committee for the 1984 election, the number of superdelegates was set at 14%.[17] Over time this percentage has gradually increased, until by 2008 the percentage stood at approximately 20% of total delegates to the Democratic Party nominating convention.[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdelegate

Superdelegates are a method intended from the beginning to insure that the Democratic Party's candidate selection will not accurately reflect the forward-looking, liberal views of Democratic voters.

That may have been OK in pre-internet days.

But now that voters can communicate directly among themselves and with each other. Now that we have internet media, super delegates are holding the Democratic Party back.

I oppose super delegates. We need reform within the Democratic Party that brings it up to the standard of our new methods of communication and new ideas.

There is no way that we should have lost the electoral college to Trump. That we did tells us that the Democratic Party is way off the right track and needs reform. One of the reforms we need is doing away with super delegates. It's just one of many.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
209. You don't even know who your post #150 was addressing?? You smear her but don't
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:49 PM
Mar 2018

even know? This is just proof that your posts are empty platitudes from a losing campaign.

And now again with the complete inability to grasp the reality about the electoral college -- "There is no way we should have lost the electoral college to Trump." Did you vote for Hillary?? Wasn't there a national campaign to deny her the White House?? How could you not know the efforts made to turn voters away from the Democratic nominee?? Obviously there was awareness of how to deny Hillary the White House. It's all over the cable news -- every day -- numerous indictments and unprecedented news coverage of how a hostile foreign power hacked our elections, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Talk about being off track.....

Your spam about super delegates fails to cover one of the most important aspects -- the CBC. Why would someone omit that?



 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
232. No. I didn't know and didn't care who the super delegate was.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:21 PM
Mar 2018

I don't care what race she is. It is not relevant to the fact that if she or he is a super delegate, he or she was not elected to represent anyone at the convention, so he or she should not have a vote at the convention.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
238. So you admit you did not know, but then smear
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:39 PM
Mar 2018

her anyways. Absolute proof of how utterly empty these attacks from the Revolution are. Your post #150 is sheer propaganda and just knee jerk criticism which you spam in an obvious effort to legitimize it. Your attacks are not well supported. This same tactic was used against Hillary, Biden, Feinstein and now super delegates, this one being a valued African American woman active in the party, which you say does not matter. Wow!

All you have to do is type “big money” with no proof or substance and everyone just needs to roll over and accept your divisive labeling. Uh, no.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
311. I do not object to any specific super delegate. They are all fine people I am sure.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:54 PM
Mar 2018

I object to the fact, the very existence of the category called "super delegates."

To phrase it in a positive way, I believe that ALL delegates to presidential conventions should be elected in primaries by the grass roots voters.

If politicians, elected past or present politicians want to be delegates rather than guests at presidential and state conventions, let them run for delegate positions.

The nominating conventions with regard to the voting should be organized so that we know that the nominees are chosen by the voting people not by the Party bureaucrats, currently serving politicians and have been politicians.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
316. You are implying corruption where there is none
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:08 PM
Mar 2018

simply over bitterness that more people preferred Hillary. She worked for others in the party, and people knew her and knew her capabilities. Bernie could have done the same for others, but he didn’t. This is not a difficult concept.

Nice back peddling, though, you definitely said that super delegates are big money elites. We need to focus on reality and not contrived scenarios.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
323. No delegate to the national convention is ever selected at the grass roots level
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:39 PM
Mar 2018

The post that you are replying to does not understand the process and the system described is so far removed from how the process works that it is funny.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
335. Thanks, Gothmog, your posts about the real processes
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:15 PM
Mar 2018

are very much appreciated. Those posts you referenced are getting more and more abstract. It’s a little scary to see that much effort into totally contrived talking points. Disturbing...

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
342. I live and worked in the real world
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:32 PM
Mar 2018

Politics can be messy in the real world. No national delegates are elected by grass roots voters in the real world

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
322. Have you ever attended a state convention or participated in delegate selection processs?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:37 PM
Mar 2018

Your post is totally wrong as to the process. Delegates are never elected at the primary stage in the real world in most states. In the real world, voters vote for a candidate in the primary. Under Democratic Party rules, this vote is used to allocate delegates proportionally. Under GOP rules, it is possible for the delegates in some of the later contests to be awarded winner take all.

Actually delegates are then elected from persons who apply to be a delegate. In Texas, you file a form where you promise to support the nominee of the party in April and then you are vetted by the party and the campaign. In Texas you have to attend the county/senate district conventions that occur later in March (this year these conventions are March 24). Then one attends the state convention where a percentage of the national delegates are elected at the Senate District caucuses. For example. in my Senate District we elected three Clinton Delegates and one Sanders delegates. Other delegates are nominated on at large basis by the nominations committee. Along the way, each campaign or candidate has absolute veto rights on their delegates. I was on the committee that vetted Clinton delegates for my senate district.

The process you describe does not exist in the real world. In some states you vote on slates of delegates for a candidate but that only gets them to the state convention where they still have to be vetted and selected.

For the at large portion, state officials who are not super delegates get some preference. For example, the Texas delegation included a number of state senators including some of my friends. I had a friend who applied because she was a precinct chair and county party chair but she was not selected. I hate to break it to you but the at large delegates include the heavy hitters and donors.

I actually been through the process and I understand the process. Your description is so wrong that it is funny

George II

(67,782 posts)
339. With some variations, that process is basically they way it works in other states AND....
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:43 PM
Mar 2018

...has been in effect for quite a long time.

People have to understand that they can't just show up out of nowhere and start changing a long-standing process. They have to work WITH the party for a while, get settled into it, and establish some credibility with the party before they start making demands.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
341. You are correct
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:29 PM
Mar 2018

I know people who were delegates selected in other states. The ptocess is basically the same in most states but it costs a great deal more to be a delegate from New York or Mass. The Texas delegation was seated behind the Mass. delegation

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
325. Please attend a state convention and watch the process in the real world
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:41 PM
Mar 2018

Your posts are really off as to how the process works. No national delegate is ever elected at the grassroots level.

George II

(67,782 posts)
343. To take this one step further, no presidential candidate is ever "elected" at the state level.....
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:44 PM
Mar 2018

...and no candidate "wins" a particular state.

If one takes the time to read the ballot every four years, he/she is not voting for the Democratic or republican candidate, they're voting for electors to the electoral college. In December of the Presidential election year, they assemble and vote for a candidate. They are not bound, but can vote for any candidate they want.

George II

(67,782 posts)
340. Superdelegates "bring corruption"? How?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:14 PM
Mar 2018

And to address something further down in your post, you say:

"Superdelegates are a method intended from the beginning to insure that the Democratic Party's candidate selection will not accurately reflect the forward-looking, liberal views of Democratic voters."

When have the super delegates ever determined the ultimate candidate for President? Unless I missed something, never.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
240. Yup, and the very same exact JPR tactics and wording as before.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:48 PM
Mar 2018

Completely unsubstantiated attacks on Democrats -- and usually the most recognizable Dems, or at least those up for election soon or considering 2020, hmmm.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
201. Bernie Sanders was a Superdelegate. Why do you think he would do such a thing?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:34 PM
Mar 2018

Last edited Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Superdelegates are unpledged delegates to the Democratic convention, meaning that they aren’t beholden to the results from primaries and the caucuses (the way pledged delegates are). They are, for the most part, current and former Democratic politicians. Former President Bill Clinton is a superdelegate; so is current Sen. Bernie Sanders.


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/how-do-superdelegates-work-here-s-what-you-need-know-n554136

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
303. Bernie Sanders is a super delegate.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:33 PM
Mar 2018
Sophia4
147. Who do they represent?

Not the voters.

Not the future.

They represent big money and the past. And we don't need them in the Democratic Party.

We need to be the Party of the future, of solutions to the problems that were created in the past. We need to be the Party of the people, not of money.

I do not want super delegates. I want to be the Party of the future, the party of solutions.


Hmmm.
 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
308. I stand by the statements in my post.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:49 PM
Mar 2018

All delegates who vote for the presidential candidate at our conventions should be elected by the people in primaries.

Otherwise we stagnate as a party, don't represent our constituents, our voting members and lose elections.

The proof is in the pudding of the elections of past years that we lost.

The Republican philosophy and Party is utterly out of step with the American people and the needs and wishes of Americans, but they win elections because the Democratic Party is even more out of step with voters.

One of the reasons that the Democratic Party does not get its candidates elected is that it is too driven by party apparatchiks, by the bureaucrats and past elected officials of the party.

At least with regard to the nomination of of Democratic Party presidential candidates, it should be Democratic voters and not the Democratic elite represented as super delegates who decide.

Super delegates and the electoral college are undemocratic habits that we need to drop.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
314. This is just not even remotely true. To say the Democrats
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:03 PM
Mar 2018

are more out of touch than Republicans is utter fantasy. Democrats always win the popular vote. You don’t even know that you were attacking an African American super delegate who is active in the Party. You attacked her as “elite” and you didn’t even know who she was. There is no excuse for this kind of undermining and misinformation campaign,

Yet more propaganda from you about super delegates. Instead of smearing good people, you should just be honest about your anger and bitterness that more people preferred Hillary.

When are you going to acknowledge the current news that documents the hacking of our elections. Instead of smearing Democrats, you should educate yourself about Mueller’s indictments.

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
320. So by your very own words.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:27 PM
Mar 2018

Bernie was a Democrat when he became a Super Delegate, so all you say below you apply to him as well? He does not represent the voters? Not the future? He represents big money and the past?


I quote.

Sophia4
308. I stand by the statements in my post.




Sophia4
147. Who do they represent?

Not the voters.

Not the future.

They represent big money and the past. And we don't need them in the Democratic Party.

We need to be the Party of the future, of solutions to the problems that were created in the past. We need to be the Party of the people, not of money.

I do not want super delegates. I want to be the Party of the future, the party of solutions.

.......................

Sanders last year joined the ranks of former Presidents, House Speakers and Senate Leaders who can vote for White House nominees independent of how their home states cast ballots. All Democratic Senators are given that rank, and the Democratic National Committee gave Sanders that standing when after he chose to run in the Democratic primary. Sanders still considers himself a democratic socialist and his Senate office calls him an independent.

“When the Senator declared, he became eligible,” a Democratic official said. In doing so, he availed himself of the privilege of being among the party’s elite. He is listed between between fellow Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy and former Vermont Governor and ex-DNC Chairman Howard Dean on page eight of the party’s roster. (Former President Bill Clinton is also there, on page six.)

http://time.com/4294398/bernie-sanders-superdelegate/


Hmmmm.
 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
327. "All Democratic Senators are given that rank, and the Democratic National Committee gave Sanders
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:54 PM
Mar 2018

that standing...."

So he isn't one now, is he? and your point is moot.


Superdelegates are anti-small d-democratic. We shouldn't have them.

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
331. That was the system then. Wasn't it?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:07 PM
Mar 2018

The point is the system should be changed. Feel free to ask Bernie what he thinks about that, since you care so much.

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
337. I think the electoral college needs to be changed.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:17 PM
Mar 2018

I am not the one that believes the super delegates need to change and see no reason to say the process is corrupt. Some may believe that, I am not one of them.

Not sure why you say...


The point is the system should be changed. Feel free to ask Bernie what he thinks about that, since you care so much.


I was just responding to a poster who said it was a very bad thing and listed her reasons why. I asked her meaning. No treason to attack me for that, shanny.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
191. You mean like a caucus member has a more powerful vote than an average voter?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:17 PM
Mar 2018

Or the person in New Hampshire has a FAR more powerful vote via the Senate than a person in California?

And it's interesting how people change their tune on Superdelegates very, very quickly when SDs are the only chance a particular candidate has.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
199. Some Superdelegates are Senators - Like Bernie Sanders
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:31 PM
Mar 2018

Apparently his determination that Superdelegates are corrupt is rather recent.

Superdelegates are unpledged delegates to the Democratic convention, meaning that they aren’t beholden to the results from primaries and the caucuses (the way pledged delegates are). They are, for the most part, current and former Democratic politicians. Former President Bill Clinton is a superdelegate; so is current Sen. Bernie Sanders.

They make up 15 percent of all delegates (714 out of 4,765) – down from 20 percent in 2008. And they are free to support the presidential candidate of their choice at the convention. According to NBC News’ latest count, Clinton leads Sanders in superdelegates, 460-38. One catch: Superdelegates have to be present at the convention for their vote to count.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-18/democrats-plan-to-name-lobbyists-operatives-as-superdelegates
 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
79. "They include lobbyists from... Rupert Murdoch's news corp."
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:09 PM
Mar 2018

Fox news is given more say in our nominating process than a lifelong democratic voter? Seriously?

From the link above:

"They include lobbyists for Venezuela’s national petroleum company and for Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp."

murielm99

(30,745 posts)
87. And how many of them are there?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:21 PM
Mar 2018

Have they been voted in yet? Too many people here are running around with their hair on fire over something that has not happened.

We have primaries coming up. It is time to GOTV and not fight over something else designed to divide us.

The super delegate system works.

 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
89. Yes. They were chosen. That is what the article says.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:23 PM
Mar 2018

I dont care ifbthere is only one, no fox news lobbyists should be considered more than a lifelong democratic voter.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
203. Which Superdelegates are "lobbyists for FoxNews?"
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:36 PM
Mar 2018

Not seeing where there are any. Do you have names?

Can you provide your source?


Were they chosen by the same people that chose Bernie Sanders to be a superdelegate?

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
99. They are registered Democrats and worked in the party for years...they work at Fox...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:44 PM
Mar 2018

so now where people work is an issue?

 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
101. They are registered lobbyists for newscorps
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:48 PM
Mar 2018

Big difference. If their vote wasnt worth hundreds of times more than an average primary voter, it wouldnt matter. Alas, thats not the case. Glad this crap is nearing its end.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
105. OMG
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:52 PM
Mar 2018

This person who ran for office as a Democrat and is a long time donor must be kicked out!!!!! Sarcasm...in case you missed it.

"One of the lobbyists is Joanne Dowdell, who’s registered as a federal lobbyist for News Corp., where she’s senior vice president for global government affairs. Dowdell ran for New Hampshire’s House seat as a Democrat in 2012 and is a party donor."


murielm99

(30,745 posts)
109. ROFL
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:01 PM
Mar 2018

The only people I have ever seen object to super delegates are the Bernie Sanders people and the spinoff organizations that came later. Largely, they don't know what they are talking about.

Sanders and his followers need to concentrate on helping, not criticizing, for the upcoming primaries. If they want to criticize, let them criticize trump and his antics. They need to get over their purity crap and help GOTV. This non-issue is a distraction. We do not need anything distracting from the upcoming primaries.

Why aren't they criticizing republicans?

 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
137. The Democratic Party is ending superdelegates
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:52 PM
Mar 2018

I for one, am not criticizing the Democratic party for that. Others,apparently are.

 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
141. It is a decision they are leaning towards and making clear is more likely than not.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:55 PM
Mar 2018

They have already eliminated most of their superdelegates and tied the remaining to the votes of the states they represent.That's effectively getting rid of them.

murielm99

(30,745 posts)
143. What a shame, if that happens.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:58 PM
Mar 2018

I hate to see us cave to pressure from purists and non-Democrats. The system is in place for a reason, and it works.

I am going to talk to both of my senators, and to the Democratic representative in my adjoining district, whom I support financially and with my presence at her events.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
220. When did they say that they are ending superdelegates?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:12 PM
Mar 2018

Considering it and having done it are two very different things.

After all Bernie Sanders became a Superdelegate, so not everyone thinks that they are a bad idea.

Well, at least all the time.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
365. The GOP doesn't have supers but they have winner take all primaries which are less Democratic in
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 10:51 AM
Mar 2018

my opinion than those based on percentages...but you will end up without a clear nominee in an number of cases if you lose supers...you need a certain number to reach the nominee threshold, and it has happened in the last two cycles that both nominees needed supers to put them over the top...there could be a bitter battle over the nomination if we don't have some mechanism to make sure one candidate can win the nomination within the system...no one except Sen. Sanders and some of his followers ever had issues with supers who vote for the candidate with the most votes. So, I see no need to do away with supers and believe under our current system, it could lead to chaos.

 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
142. I for one raised thousands for Hillary and canvassed for her regularly
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:57 PM
Mar 2018

...with my wife. And yes, superdelegates are bad

Response to Tiggeroshii (Reply #142)

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
229. I am so sick of them...really. I would never vote for any Our Revolution candidate
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:20 PM
Mar 2018

in a primary...I would vote for a yellow dog in a general ...but if the GOP wins this epic battle, it will be because of folks like this who attack perfectly good Democrats and are fans of but one person as far as I can tell... I won't no part of this...wasn't 16 shitty enough for these folks?

murielm99

(30,745 posts)
353. I agree.
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 02:19 AM
Mar 2018

And if Our Revolution endorses someone, I don't want them. If I have no choice, if they are the only Democrat, I will vote for them, but I won't support them. That is, I won't give them any money, phone bank, walk, etc.

There is no revolution, kids. There was a right-wing coup, aided and supported by an adversarial outside country.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
355. And the coup causes some to think that if only we ran a progressive...well first of
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 09:05 AM
Mar 2018

all Clinton was a progressive and second. Russ Feingold lost...some never examine the situation logically using facts. We need to accept moderates or we will never regain a Senate majority. The constant war between election reality and pure ideology has cost us much needed victories.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
150. She was not elected by Democratic voters. She should not be a delegate.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:13 PM
Mar 2018

: a person acting for another: such as
a : a representative to a convention or conference

U.N. delegates from African nations

The nominee netted a handful of delegates in the state's caucus.

b government : a representative of a U.S. territory in the House of Representatives
c government : a member of the lower house of the legislature of Maryland, Virginia, or West Virginia

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delegate

The origin of the word:

delegate (n.)

late 15c., from Old French delegat or directly from Latin delegatus, past participle of delegare "to send as a representative," from de- "from, away" (see de-) + legare "send with a commission" (see legate).

delegate (v.)

1520s (early 15c. as a past-participle adjective), from delegate (n.). Related: Delegated; delegating.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/delegate

Who chooses the superdelegates? In other words, whom do they represent?

Not the voters. Not grassroots Democrats.

No. Some self-appointed elite that fears losing control of the Democratic Party to new candidates, new ideas, a new movement.

These super-delegates are one of the major reasons that Democrats lose so many elections and seem to be such a stodgy, old Party of the Past.

We should not have super-delegates in the Democratic Party. Not at all. No place for them in a Party that represents the people and not entities like Fox News.


R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
174. Your whole degrading description of her isn't even remotely accurate.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:47 PM
Mar 2018

She is an African American woman active in Democratic politics. She IS the base of the party. How dare you tell her she doesn't belong. She is not a "some self-appointed elite that fears losing control of the Democratic Party to new ideas, new candidates....." You keep typing platitudes that promote one man's losing campaign. Why keep denigrating Democrats with falsities. It's divisive, and the tired labels are absurd.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
221. You seem to be confused about how delegates get to be delegates.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:14 PM
Mar 2018
Delegates to the national conventions are selected at the state level, according to rules and formulas determined by each political party's state committee. While these rules and formulas can change from state-to-state and from year-to-year, there remain two methods by which the states choose their delegates to the national conventions: the caucus and the primary.


https://www.thoughtco.com/how-party-convention-delegates-are-chosen-3320136

Bernie Sanders served as a Superdelegate.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
234. She is quite remarkable and has run for office and donates and as every right to be a delegate.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:23 PM
Mar 2018

Bernie Sanders is a super delegate you know. Spare me there is but one man and his followers who object to supers...Obama beat Hillary in spite of them.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
317. Bernie Sanders is a super delegate.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:12 PM
Mar 2018

As others have noted. Is he big money elite establishment? That’s how you characterized super delegates..,

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
360. And that means what...I like super delegates. It means we never get a 'Trump' and no
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 09:34 AM
Mar 2018

candidate can ever act like a jerk when he/she loses and go to court and all the other crap that could happen. You have an opinion and my opinion is different than yours...but the fact that you think your opinion alone should carry the day is interesting and somewhat alarming.

George II

(67,782 posts)
279. Who chooses the super delegates? First, regardless of what you say....
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:12 PM
Mar 2018

....many ARE chosen by the voters.

All Democratic Governors, Representatives, and Senators, who were chosen BY THE VOTERS, are super delegates. Some are Democratic Mayors and state Democratic elected officials.

Each of those above actually were chosen by the voters.

Still others are ex-elected officials (like Jimmy Carter, Walter Mondale, Al Gore, even Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton (oh, the horror! ) ) and others are state Democratic leaders like the chairs of the 50 state Democratic Committees.

The remainder are "chosen" in accordance with rules set up BY the Democratic National Committee long before any of the conventions are held. None are chosen by "self-appointed elite". You really should check into the actual roster of the super delegates.


 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
310. All delegates to conventions that nominate candidates should be chosen in elections.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:51 PM
Mar 2018

No super delegates.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
349. This is not how the process works in the real world
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 01:30 AM
Mar 2018

No delegates to the national convention other than super delegates are elected by voters. The only delegate to the national convention who iare elected by the voters are super delegates such as the members of the CBC

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
350. No super delegates.
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 01:33 AM
Mar 2018

The delegates are selected but the number of delegates per candidate in the primary is the product of the election.

The super delegates are on top of the delegates that really represent the votes of the voters.

No super delegates.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
351. The real world is a nice place
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 02:18 AM
Mar 2018

I like living in the real world and i like understanding how the process works.

You do realize the national delegates are selected based on political considerations and not by the voters. Each and every delegate under Democratic party rules are able to vote for any candidate at the convention. The process works because in the real world campaigns carefully vet delegates. Each candidate has approval rights over the delegates allocated to that campaign.

I support the CBC snd the current system in large part because I understand how the process works in the real world.

The county/senate conventions for Texas take place in two weeks. I will be at my senate district convention because I like living in the real world.

George II

(67,782 posts)
364. All delegates to conventions that nominate candidates should be chosen in accordance....
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 10:49 AM
Mar 2018

....with the rules set forth by the party.

If that's not what someone wants, they should join the party, get involved, and work to change the rules. Or, find another party.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
329. Your posts show that you have no idea as to how the process works in the real world
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:04 PM
Mar 2018

No grassroots voter get to vote for any delegates to the national convention in almost all states. I have been through the process and helped two other people go through the process in 2008 and 2012. No national delegate is elected by any grass roots voter in the real world. The primary vote is used to allocate delegates between the candidates in almost all states. In the few states that you vote for delegates, those delegates still have to go to their state convention to select the eventual national delegates. There is no state where grassroots voters vote for national delegates in the real world. I hate to break it to you but my election as a national delegate in our senate district caucus was helped by my county cutting a deal with another county where we supported their National Convention candidate and that county supported our two National Convention candidates.

You seem to object to money playing a role. The fact that I was a maxed out donor helped me in my campaign to be elected a delegate. In most states, a significant portion of the national delegates are not selected by caucuses but by the at large process. The people selected by the at large nominations committee tend to be major donors or state party officials who were not super delegates. I sat next to a state senator and a state court district judge at the national convention. Texas had 12 state Senators who were democrats and all 12 were selected as national delegates. One of these state senators will likely be one of two new Latina congresswomen from the state of Texas. The at large nominations committee also selected a number of major donors.

The process does not involve grass roots voters every voting for a delegate. At best the grass roots voters determine the allocation of the delegates and the actual delegates are selected in a long process where it helps to be an elected official or to be a major donor.

I know how the process works because I actually attend state conventions and work inside the process.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
216. And she's on the board of GREEN AMERICA!!! She must be a real sleaze...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:03 PM
Mar 2018


About us
Our Mission

Green America harnesses economic power—the strength of consumers, businesses and the marketplace—to create a socially just and environmentally sustainable society. We provide the economic strategies, resources and organizing power to make lasting, systemic change on a range of critical issues faced today, including renewable energy, climate change, fair trade and labor, safe food, and responsible banking.


https://www.linkedin.com/in/joanne-dowdell-2249556/

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
225. Oh...well that is it ...green causes too...why why she must go of course. (Sarcasm)
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:17 PM
Mar 2018

Seriously people. Super delegates are party faithful...many could take a lesson from these didicate people.

George II

(67,782 posts)
366. I guess the person who sweeps the floor or cleans the bathrooms at Fox....
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 11:20 AM
Mar 2018

....and happens to be a Democrat should be disqualified from being a delegate and drummed out of the party.

And look at James Carville - he should be tarred and feathered, he SLEEPS with a right wing republican! The shame!!!

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
206. Oh look - here's that NewsCorp "FoxNews" Lobbyist.... She's evil, this one...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:45 PM
Mar 2018



https://www.linkedin.com/in/joanne-dowdell-2249556/


Board Member

Company NameGreen America
Dates EmployedFeb 2016 – Present Employment Duration2 yrs 2 mos
LocationWashington D.C. Metro Area

Mission
Our mission is to harness economic power—the strength of consumers, investors, businesses, and the marketplace—to create a socially just and environmentally sustainable society.

Vision
We work for a world where all people have enough, where all communities are healthy and safe, and where the bounty of the Earth is preserved for all the generations to come.

What Makes Green America Unique

We focus on economic strategies—economic action to solve social and environmental problems.

We mobilize people in their economic roles—as consumers, investors, workers, business leaders.

We empower people to take personal and collective action

We work on issues of social justice and environmental responsibility. We see these issues as completely linked in the quest for a sustainable world. It’s what we mean when we say “green.”

We work to stop abusive practices and to create healthy, just, and sustainable practices.
Our democratically-constituted board is elected by our members from our consumer, business, and staff stakeholders. Green America operates as a collaborative and participatory workplace, where staff members reach consensus through democratic decision-making processes on key strategic issues for the organization.

Green America: Growing the Green Economy for People and the Planet
Green America: Growing the Green Economy for People and the Planet
This media is a link
News Corp
Senior Vice President Global Government Affairs
Company NameNews Corp
Dates EmployedJul 2014 – Present Employment Duration3 yrs 9 mos
LocationWashington D.C. Metro Area
Delivering extraordinary experiences for our customers and consumers is at the heart of who we are.

Volunteer New Hampshire
Vice-Chair, Board of Directors
Company NameVolunteer New Hampshire
Dates EmployedOct 2012 – Jun 2014 Employment Duration1 yr 9 mos
LocationConcord, NH
New Hampshire Humanities Council
Board Director
Company NameNew Hampshire Humanities Council
Dates Employed2013 – 2014 Employment Duration1 yr
LocationConcord, New Hampshire
Dowdell for Congress
Candidate for Congress
Company NameDowdell for Congress
Dates EmployedApr 2011 – May 2012 Employment Duration1 yr 2 mos
LocationNew Hampshire
Democratic candidate in New Hampshire's First Congressional District. Race suspended Spring 2012.

Show more
Education
Howard University
Howard University
Degree NameBachelor's degree Field Of StudyPublic Relations/Journalism
Dates attended or expected graduation 1976 – 1980

Eliot Rosewater

(31,112 posts)
227. That's it, I am fucking DONE with the RUSSIAN ASSETS posting on DU.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:18 PM
Mar 2018

Why has nobody APOLOGIZED for attacking this person?

FUCK FUCK FUCK

lapucelle

(18,268 posts)
299. And there's this "evil lobbyist" as well...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:02 PM
Mar 2018
"Harold McEwen Ickes was White House Deputy Chief of Staff for President Bill Clinton. He is the son of Harold L. Ickes, who was Secretary of the Interior under Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Ickes is a graduate of Stanford University (1964, AB, Economics) and Columbia Law School. Ickes was a student civil rights activist in the 1960s and took part in Freedom Summer. He has practiced labor law for many years in New York City.

He has been active in Democratic politics for over forty years, working in the presidential campaigns of Eugene McCarthy, Birch Bayh, Morris Udall, Ted Kennedy and Jesse Jackson. In 1989, he was a senior advisor to David Dinkins' successful campaign for mayor of New York City. Ickes is a registered lobbyist with the Ickes and Enright Group."

People have to stop taking The Intercept seriously.

George II

(67,782 posts)
318. Funny how an employee of an organization becomes a "lobbyist" for that organization.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:15 PM
Mar 2018

Forget that she's a member of the DNC who was chosen by the members of Democratic Party of the state of New Hampshire.

Almost as funny as someone here a while back, when he learned that I once worked in the IT department of a New York bank, called me a "bankster"!

George II

(67,782 posts)
313. What delegate was a lobbyist for News Corp?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:01 PM
Mar 2018

Do you know how many of the 4763 delegates at the convention were active lobbyists?

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
116. Most superdelegates are elected officials and party leaders
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:20 PM
Mar 2018

The Congressional Black Caucus is strongly opposed to the elimination of superdelegates and I agree with their position.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
153. Superdelegates are not needed.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:16 PM
Mar 2018

The Congressional Black Caucus will be just fine without them as long as they concern themselves with representing voters and listening and responding to voters -- which they do very well.

The superdelegates are a crutch, a way to put a thumb on the scales. They are not democratic. They represent the fear of the status quo about change. That is what is holding our Party back.

No to super-delegates. They make our conventions jokes.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
155. You are totally and utterly wrong
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:23 PM
Mar 2018

The CBC represents an important demographic in the party and I agree with the CBC on this. Do you know any members of the CBC? I do. They are not happy about this proposed change.

African American voters and African American women voters are key elements in the base and are far more important compared to the people who want to get rid of super delegates.

If you are concerned about democracy, lets get rid of caucuses. I know that one candidate did well in caucuses and so does not want these institutions eliminated. Caucuses need to go. I participated in the Texas two step in 2008 and there are ways to game the system that are so very very undemocratic.

BTW, I was a delegate to the National Convention in Philadelphia. I got to talk to Beto who was one of our super delegates at that convention. I disagree strongly with your positions.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
165. But we do need African American voters
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:18 PM
Mar 2018

Why do you want to run them off? Do you know any members of the CBC? African American votes and African American women votes in particular are an important part of the Democratic base in the real world.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
181. We need African-American voters.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:01 PM
Mar 2018

Where were they in 2016?

If they had voted for Hillary like they did for Obama, Hillary would have won.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
197. So lets alienated these voters by adopting this rather dumb plan
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:27 PM
Mar 2018

Again, why do you want to run these voters away from the party?

MichMan

(11,932 posts)
265. How about more people that worked in the trenches being allowed to be delegates
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:42 PM
Mar 2018

instead of elected officials. Might actually reward those who work tirelessly on the local levels get the opportunity. The state parties could appoint as many POC as they want to be delegates instead of a handful of politicians

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
278. Few people in the trenches are pushing for this change
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:08 PM
Mar 2018

These proposals are being advanced by some splinter groups who supported a certain candidate. We are fortunate that these proposals will require a two-thirds vote at the DNC and I hope that the CBC and its allies have the votes to block this proposal.

I value the CBC far more that the people pushing this proposal.

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
312. Actually...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:58 PM
Mar 2018

They were voting.

So how did African-Americans vote in the 2016 election? Despite President Obama telling black voters that he would take it as a "personal insult" if they didn't cast their ballot for Hillary Clinton, 2016 black voters didn't coalesce behind Clinton the same way they did Obama, with Clinton earning 88% of their vote (to Trump's 8%) as compared to Obama's 93% in 2012. That being said, the overwhelming majority of African-Americans did show their support by voting for Clinton, particularly as compared to white Americans, who ultimately won Trump the election by giving him 58% of the white vote.


https://mic.com/articles/159402/here-s-a-break-down-of-how-african-americans-voted-in-the-2016-election#.WJp4dRywq

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
183. I don't understand your response, sorry.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:02 PM
Mar 2018

Do you support getting rid of both of those?

I do support super delegates, and the fact that they are important to the Congressional Black Caucus matters a great deal to me. But super delegates have never been used - in my opinion they function as a safety net - while both caucuses and open primaries have caused a great deal of mischief. The caucuses in my state were a bloodbath and most of my Hillary-supporting friends declined to go because we remembered being bullied at the 2008 caucuses. It's an open wound.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
193. I support getting rid of caucuses that serve as primaries and super delegates.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:21 PM
Mar 2018

I do not favor getting rid of caucuses when the term means Congressional Black Caucus or women's caucus.

We don't have open primaries in California. It should be easy for a voter who is undeclared as to party to get a Democratic ballot in the primary. In 2016, the primary polls were very confused. Too many people walked out with provisional ballots. We should encourage voters to vote in primaries. That increases the likelihood they will identify as Democrats and vote Democratic in the November election.

I do not approve of caucuses that substitute for primaries. They may be inexpensive but they lend themselves to corruption in too many cases.

I think we agree on all but the super delegates. I think they stop change and progress in the Democratic Party. That is why I oppose the super delegates.

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
205. I'll tell you why I support super delegates.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:44 PM
Mar 2018

I have spent years, years in the trenches and my mother, who is in her 80s, has spent many more (and she still goes to weekly meetings). The fact that there is a contingent of people who don't want to reward party loyalists who've stayed with the party through all the ups and downs is bothersome to me.

While I naturally support efforts to bring in new blood - always - I do not and cannot support efforts to marginalize people who've provided decades of service to the Democrat party. I honor those who slog to ill-attended meetings in bad weather, who run as placeholders for a primary seat in elections they know they can't win, who've addressed thousand or millions of envelopes, who patiently listed to all comers running for office who want party endorsements, who've picked up a telephone with shaking hands to call on behalf of a candidate, who've knocked on doors, or circulated petitions. I honor those people, and I support efforts made by any party to do the same.

I dearly wish the GOP had super delegates, too, because they could have probably prevented a Trump nomination had a real functioning Republican worked hard to shore up support ahead of time and prevented the nonsense that went on (they could also ditch the winner-take-all system in some primaries while they're at it).

I strongly support a candidate's being able to make alliances and enter the field having created them, with some delegates in the bank, versus just swooping in as a latecomer - and sometimes not even a member of the party - thinking that you deserve to be handed a nomination on a platter.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
208. As one who has worked for years in the trenches, I love your post
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:48 PM
Mar 2018

We need to reward party loyalty. I ran and was elected as a delegate to Philadelphia in large part due to years of work inside the party including running voter protection efforts and a program to train persons to help voters get ids to vote in Texas.

Super delegates are elected party officials and elected members of congress. I am friends with a couple of CBC members and I support these members being super delegates.

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
214. Thanks. I feel very passionately about it.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:56 PM
Mar 2018

Last edited Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:58 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm tired of non-party members (and I'm not accusing anyone on this thread of that) swooping in to reap the spoils of people who've worked hard for a long time, and of diminishing their work.

The sight of a small group of committed older woman getting shouted down by people at a 2008 caucus will stick with me forever. These women supported Hillary on issues and, I think, because she represented something more to them, a validation of their years of service, and they were treated with ineffable rudeness. I left that caucus in tears and a total stranger ran up to me and comforted me. I'll never forget my own neighbor, who I'd liked up till then, screaming about Monica Lewinsky and the blue dress and getting all red in the face.

From what I heard, the 2016 caucus was a million times worse (and to add insult to injury, they held it on Easter weekend). I declined to go. I sent in an affidavit and called the state party to complain about caucuses!

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
239. In 2008, Texas had the Texas two step which was a combination of primary and caucus
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:45 PM
Mar 2018

I was part of the Obama voter protection team and attended the training for the caucus portion. There are so many games that can be played during the caucus system that it is sad. I really want to get rid of caucuses.

The DNC in 2016 told Texas to get rid of the Texas two step and the process in 2016 was cleaner other than some disruptions at the state convention. I do not miss the Texas two step and I strongly believe that we need to rid of the caucus system.

I am going to continue to work hard on the ground. We are making slow but steady process in turning Texas blue. According to demographic trends, Texas will be blue in 2022 or so. Trump may well accelerate the process.

Keep on being active. I find that working with local candidates to be worthwhile. I also have fun working on voter protection issues including spending several hours in the local county war room on primary day.

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
248. Washington had primaries in 2008 and 2016 that didn't count, but they had to hold them by law.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:03 PM
Mar 2018

Both times the results were markedly different from the caucuses. In 2008, Hillary just got a higher percentage than she did in the caucuses, which, as I've stated, were unpleasant (and inconvenient). In 2016, Hillary won the primary and there were two to three many times the participants.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
262. I saw that on the news
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:38 PM
Mar 2018

Hopefully these states will get rid of caucuses since they have primaries already

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
271. They're attached to them for historical reasons, but they've changed.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:50 PM
Mar 2018

My first one was in the 1990s, when I caucused for Tom Harken. We sat in a room at a school, there were about nine people, we represented about four different candidates (it was a crowded field that year), did several rounds of voting, and allotted our delegates. People from different precincts must have been in different rooms.

2000 was pretty much a shoe-in for Gore, and I didn't go.

2004 was, as someone described it, a "raucous caucus". It had significant more participation than previous ones. It was lively, and everyone was united against Bush. But the seeds of discontent were sowed. Kerry won our caucus fair and square, but the Dean people were not having it. They'd actively go to other precincts and try to change peoples' votes after each round. Later, on the radio call in shows, they'd call in and claim that the results were rigged and Kerry didn't win, but that his supporters were changing the count! That certainly wasn't the case at our location (and really doesn't gibe with how anyone Kerry supporter I knew would act), though the Dean people were clearly the loudest and most upset.

Both times, the district and state party planks were voted on, one at a time.

In 2008, all hell broke loose. There were now 1000 people at one location (remember I told you the first one I went to had 9?) They were mostly there to vote for Obama, and had no intention of voting by rounds. They also wouldn't sit still and vote for the party planks, as decreed by rule. Now, generally, they were nice people, clearly positive and excited about their candidate, but they were new to the party process and didn't want to deal with the tedium of sitting there while people spoke for or against the planks they'd worked so hard to draft. While I felt most of the voters were sincere, I didn't like their lack of focus on the other elements of the caucus, which goes beyond candidate selection. The people running our precinct lost control and ended up skipping that part of it, which still bugs me. Well, it's water under the bridge, I guess. I, too, hope they change it, and apologies for the long tale of woe.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
275. Texas was attached to the Texas two step but the DNC killed it
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:05 PM
Mar 2018

The Texas two step was a wonderfully complex plan that was fun to watch and participate in. I was at a training session when one of the trainers who had come to Texas straight from the Iowa caucuses was expressing amazement.

Hillary Clinton won the 2008 Texas primary portion of the process but President Obama ended up with a few more delegates due to the Texas two step. There were credentials challenges that could have affected a number of delegates that became moot when Hillary Clinton endorsed President Obama a couple of days prior to the Texas state convention. I had planned to go to the convention for the credentials fight but got a reprieve.

After the concession by Clinton, the fight was on the delegation selection process and that got nasty. There were far more delegates who wanted to go to Denver than there were slots.

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
280. I've been to state conventions and they ARE fun.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:14 PM
Mar 2018

My mother got named a delegate to the 2004 convention, mostly as a reward for her long years of service, and had the time of her life.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
284. I have been to several state conventions
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:24 PM
Mar 2018

This year's Texas state convention is in Fort Worth and all of my kids have told me that they are not going to go to Cowtown. We have county/senate district conventions on March 24 and I will be there with some resolutions.

For the 2014 convention, I got stuck on the Rules Committee which was 8 hours of dealing with lawyers. I hope to avoid that assignment

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
172. So letting elected party officials be delegates to the national convention is offensive
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:36 PM
Mar 2018

I was a delegate to the last national convention. The super delegates in our delegation were mainly members of congress and the state party chair. Why is allowing elected officials become delegates offensive or undemocratic?

 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
173. They were not elected as superdelegates to give a vote for their candidate
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:37 PM
Mar 2018

you, however, were elected. Your role was democratic and theirs was not.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
175. You do realize that under party rules, I could change my vote at any time
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:48 PM
Mar 2018

Under party rules even pledged delegates like myself could change their vote at any time. The campaigns handle this by vetting all persons selected to be delegates. I was on the committee that vetted delegates for my state senate district. Under party rules, each candidate and campaign had the right to approve or reject delegates even elected pledged delegates. The people who got approved by the Clinton campaign were long time Democrats who have been active in Texas democratic politics for a long time. One of my fellow delegates complained that I got to be a delegate after only 12 years in state party politics and she had to be active for over 20 to get a shot.

At the national convention, I had some Sanders delegates curse and call my daughter (who was my guest) the C-word and told her that she was a traitor to her generation for not getting me to change my vote.

The process of being elected as a delegate is very political and it helped that I was a maxed out donor. You may consider that to be democratic but I understand the system and find that claim to be amusing.

 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
180. Well there would be
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:00 PM
Mar 2018

more uproar if you changed your vote -and you would likely be removed as a pledged delegate than if an unpledged superdelegate changed his vote -who was never elected to pledge his vote.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
200. Read the party rules
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:33 PM
Mar 2018

Once selected, I could not be removed for switching my vote. The final ballot for voting is done at the caucus breakfast and after you sign the ballot form, you cannot be removed.

I was part of the Texas delegation where we had a group of Sanders delegates walk into the delegation breakfast meeting and demand that we condemn Hillary Clinton and vote for Sanders despite our pledge. Not one member of the Clinton delegation changed their vote despite this demonstration.

I am still active in party politics and was in the local county voter protection war room on primary day. People who are long time party workers and activists do not change their minds simply because some other delegates attack and call their daughter the C-word because she would not get me to change my vote.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
217. Well, I guess that we shouldn't believe everything we think.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:04 PM
Mar 2018

But that won't stop some people.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
231. I ran and was elected as a delegate to the 2016 convention and so I paid attention to the rules
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:21 PM
Mar 2018

The party rules are important.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
270. So was Bernie.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:47 PM
Mar 2018

And no, they aren't all superdelegates.

Do you know why the BCC supports having Superdelegates? What do you think their motives are?

MichMan

(11,932 posts)
272. Well if it isn't about giving up their status , it might be this.....
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:55 PM
Mar 2018

Is it because they think the state parties are racist and won't appoint African American's as regular delegates?

or something else....?

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
274. So you don't know, but you are willing to assume certain motives
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:00 PM
Mar 2018

which seem to be "self serving."

Interesting.

Perhaps reading something about them, rather than speculating, might be helpful:

https://cbc.house.gov/

MichMan

(11,932 posts)
276. Are you a member of the CBC?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:07 PM
Mar 2018

Please tell me what the motives are of all 38 members?

You asked what their motives were and I gave an answer; since I am not one of the 38, all I can do is speculate what it could be.

Nothing in your link specifically mentions why they support super delegates, so I don't know the purpose of posting it. Since I am not a delegate myself, I'm not sure why it is "self serving" to oppose a system where certain elite delegates votes are considered so much more important than others.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
285. You were asked why you thought the Caucus supported keeping Superdelegates
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:24 PM
Mar 2018

And instead of of saying, "I don't know" or running a quick google to actually find out, you simply replied that they "are all superdelegates, aren't they?"

No one asked you about individual, personal motives of the members of the CBC, but you seemed to imply some pretty quickly, along with some displaying a mistaken assumption about their actual participation in the process.

That's what's pretty interesting.

That's why I posted the link to information about them.

And no, I'm not a member of the CBC.

I also have no idea why you think that I said that opposing Superdelegates is "self serving." Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else in this thread?

I hope that clarifies things for you.




Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
392. It was Obama and the DNC that eliminated the Texas Two Step in 2016
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 07:51 PM
Mar 2018

I attended the training by the Obama team from Iowa and there are ways to game the caucus system. We need to get rid of caucuses

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
212. Talking about how the Black Congressional Caucus doesn't "understand" the system.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:52 PM
Mar 2018

Why does this not surprise me whatsoever?

Bernie Sanders was a Superdelegate last year. Why do you think he would do such a thing?

 

TheSmarterDog

(794 posts)
223. Because any outside agency could literally take over the Party.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:16 PM
Mar 2018

Last edited Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Just because you agreed with the outsiders in 2016 doesn't make it any less dangerous. Next time it could be someone like Roger Stone running the show instead of Bernie Sanders.

And don't pretend that sort of thing couldn't happen. That's exactly what could happen!

rock

(13,218 posts)
110. Agreed
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:02 PM
Mar 2018

We really need to stop playing games with votes (even in the primary). This means dropping the electoral college. One person one vote. States have no more rights than the population within. Just my opinion. Other opinions may vary.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
4. Super delegates are really a non factor
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:12 AM
Mar 2018

Bernie fans complained that the superdelegate process was rigged against him.

In 2008, Obama & Edwards fans complained that the superdelegate process was rigged against them.

Obama went out and won the votes in 2008, though. Bernie did not

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
6. If a non factor, then why keep them?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:15 AM
Mar 2018

It's certainly bad optics for a party that is supposed to embody democratic ideals.

brush

(53,784 posts)
61. One reason is so we don't get a trump. The repugs wish that they had had super delegates.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:21 AM
Mar 2018

Reduce the number but keep some protection against a trump-like candidate.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
66. That's baloney -- We are not Republicans
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:38 AM
Mar 2018

And the Republicans got who the majority of their voters wanted. The vast majority of Republicans still support him. Limits on democracy (the Electoral College) made Trump President and handed many of the seats in Congress (gerrymandering) to the Republicans. I do not trust anyone who thinks they are above the test of true democracy.

brush

(53,784 posts)
70. They support him because he's what the party came up with
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:46 AM
Mar 2018

It could happen in our party too. In fact it without Hillary's super delegate early lead, a non-Dem outsider could've gotten our nomination.

brush

(53,784 posts)
73. We got the candidate who got the most votes in the primary and the general.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:52 AM
Mar 2018

If you want to talk stolen election we can go there too.

brush

(53,784 posts)
81. The subject was super delegates, right? Hillary got her early lead in them because Sanders...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:14 PM
Mar 2018

didn't bother to campaign much in the southern primaries—seems those POC voters were deemed not that important.

Bad misread.

I say reduce the number or super delegates (make sure POCs are well represented among them), but keep some to guard against the rise of a trump-like candidate, which was the original intent of the super delegates.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
88. And were off with Bernie Sanders and race (again)
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:23 PM
Mar 2018

I think there are much better ways to protect minorities than to establish an entrenched class of Democrats who are not obligated to vote in a way that protects anyone.

brush

(53,784 posts)
92. Did you not get the part about making sure POCs are included in a reduced amont of...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:27 PM
Mar 2018

super delegates who will, if needed, protect the Democratic Party against the rise of a trump-like candidate?

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
95. Frankly, if we get a Trump-like
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:37 PM
Mar 2018

Candidate who can carry enough regular delegates to possibly win the nomination, I'm not going to stay a Democrat.

brush

(53,784 posts)
100. I don't think that will happen. The super delegate structure was designed to protect against that.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:45 PM
Mar 2018

I say reduce the number, with POCs represented, but keep some protection in place, especially in the open primary races where anyone, repugs included, can skew the outcome.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
106. I just think there has to be a better way
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:55 PM
Mar 2018

to protect the minority vote without the "establishment' appearance of super-delegates. It's becoming an albatross around the the Democratic Party's image.

Every time I try to get my progressive (and very liberal) son to join the party, he points at Super Delegates as evidence that not unlike the Republicans, the party is really all about maintaining a privileged class. I'm not saying he's totally correct, I'm saying it should be abolished to show we are a party of inclusion.

brush

(53,784 posts)
138. Your suggestion is to abolish it? Super delegates are not there to protect POC voters, they're...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:52 PM
Mar 2018

there to protect the party from trump-like campaigns and non-Dems having a say in picking our candidates.

IMO there has to be some mechanism in place, at least until we get rid of undemocratic caucuses and open primaries (I'm good with a reduced number of super delegates).

Democrats and Democrats only should pick our candidates.

Independents are independents for a reason. They want to vote for any party they chose—Greens, Democrats, repugs, Libertarians, whoever—that's fine with me but as non-party members I don't think they should be helping to pick our candidates in our primaries.

Try explaining to your son the real purpose of super deletes is not to grant a privileged status to a few but to protect the party from a destructive candidate like trump.

And it actually worked in a way 2016 whether some want to believe it or not. Clinton got not just more votes than an outsider/non-Dem, she got more super delegates as well because the non-Dem didn't think the southern primaries, where many POCs voted, where important enough to campaign vigorously in. Not a smart move as it turned out. POCs are a big part of our base.


Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
71. Exactly, protection against a disastrous Trump event.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:47 AM
Mar 2018

Also, although our superdelegates have always supported the will of the majority, in 2016 a candidate our voters had decided against asked the superdelegates to overthrow the majority choice and appoint the candidate. This scheme had 0% chance of succeeding, of course, but that someone might even try it was alarming.

Those are two sides of the same coin, of course. How to give party leaders some control against Trumps without having too much more power than the party electorate?

We have some good people who are supporting some needed changes. This is not all about minority factions trying to create a path to victory over the wishes of the majority, and there are some sensible things we can do.

Last I had heard, DNC members, party officeholders and leaders would still get to attend the convention as voting delegates. But the DNC members would have to vote for whatever candidate their own states chose, thus substantially reducing the number of superdelegates. Thus, the 2016 scheme would be even less possible.

KPN

(15,646 posts)
91. Knew this argument would be made.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:26 PM
Mar 2018

I say BS -- our party would never pick a Trump or anyone even slightly similar to him in character, motivation or ability. Red herring.

brush

(53,784 posts)
94. What do you think almost happened in 2016? A non-Dem who but for not campaigning...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:36 PM
Mar 2018

in the early southern primaries (POC votes were deemed not that important), missed out on super delegates.

An attempt later on in the campaign was made to have super delegates switch their votes because said candidate made a mistake in not campaigning for sourthern POC votes.

I say reduce the number of super delegates (make sure POCs are well represented among the new number) but keep that protection against usurper candidates who attack the party and want to change party procedures to suit their campaign.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
242. That candidate did campaign in Texas even though he did poorly
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:52 PM
Mar 2018

One of my friends worked on his campaign in Texas. Some resources were committed but that candidate got little or no traction with key groups who make up the base of the Texas Democratic Party. There were a number of groups on the ground in Texas for that candidate because I ran into them. They were active and loud but were not successful

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
120. Because key demographics groups like the CBC want to retain super delegates
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:28 PM
Mar 2018

The CBC is strongly opposed to the elimination of super delegates and the CBC is a key element in the base of the party.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
36. In 2008, top political allies of Obama made the point that the superdelegates would respect and not
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:33 AM
Mar 2018

Overturn the choice of the pledged delegates. This includes Kennedy and Kerry who were repeatedly asked because Massachusetts went for Clinton. Additionally, there was a large block led by Pelosi who declared they would back whoever got the majority of the pledged delegates.

The talk about super delegates rose in the coverage if super Tuesday when Obama matched Clinton. The Clinton people then spoke of the ability of superdelegates to swing a result if the pledged delegates were close. They also spoke of the popular vote that never existed a national level in the primaries and greatly underweight primary states.

Note BOTH sides were giving politically acceptable answers that benefitted their side. Consider that Obama HAD to make the argument on winning the pledged delegates because there was no likelihood that the superdelegates would "take it away" from Clinton. It was a sign that the Clinton team knew they performed less well than planned on Super Tuesday that they brought up the idea that the superdelegates could give the nomination to a better candidate especially if she won the "popular vote"

In 2016, I was surprised that the Sanders people did not argue the issue exactly as Obama surrogates did. Arguing simply that it was unfair OR the super delegates could at the end give the nomination to Sanders was not politically smart at all.

I think the controversy in 2016 has made the entire concept of superdelegates with the ability to act as a bloc to change the results of the voters is toxic. I think this even though I was NOT surprised that the DNC officials would prefer Clinton, who most likely knew and many had likely worked for her or her husband over Sanders, who was not a party member and was far from the center.


Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
76. Yes, the problem was 2016. Very interestingly, in 2008
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:03 PM
Mar 2018

Hillary did get the majority vote -- barely! -- but lost the delegate count, a situation which required her to consider if she had a duty to try to woo some superdelegates who'd switched to Obama back. But as a woman of principle and good sense, and with concern for the wellbeing of her party and her nation, she endorsed Obama and thereafter campaigned to elect him without reservation.

When we voters choose good, principled candidates, even an imperfect system will nevertheless work well for us because the candidates themselves will have the probity and judgement to do what is best.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
111. Except the majority vote makes no sense in the primaries
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:06 PM
Mar 2018

It is adding apples and oranges and thus down weights the primary states. If you tried to correct for that by weighting the states, you would get something near the pledged delegates.

The "popular vote" was never spoken of in 2004, 2000 or before. The first mention of it was in February 2008, when Clinton did less well than her team planned on superTuesday. They hoped to have her so far ahead then that she would have been the almost certain nominee. Instead, Obama and she were nearly tied. In addition, he was better positioned for the next group of states. Her team had been so confident in the I think 23 SuperTuesday states, they had not done much for the next states. Obama's team was fighting for a long shot victory and they knew every contest would matter.

This is why as soon as results came in, the Clinton team first saw they could lose the race. One response was to socialize the idea that the superdelegates could opt to give the nomination to the slightly behind in pledged delegates candidate. They simultaneously pushed that it could be justified if she won the popular vote. That discussion was to normalize that idea. They knew she very likely would have more votes because she won many big primaries.

However, it was a sign her team KNEW she was potentially going to lose. Note neither Gore or Kerry who won easily ever spoke of the popular vote.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
119. All teams know they can potentially lose. Obama's
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:26 PM
Mar 2018

and every other professional politician were running their own numbers.

The point is, in 2008 two good, honorable politicians handled a dicey situation with respect for the voters, the process, and democracy. They met the test.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
128. Of course
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:38 PM
Mar 2018

The point was the degree of confidence. From many post election sources, the Clinton team saw the 23 contests on one day as an effective barrier to anyone beating Clinton, who had far higher name recognition. Many accounts suggested that her team thought no other candidate would get the 15 percent needed to get delegates in California.

In reality, after the Kerry and then Caroline snd Ted Kennedy endorsements and the collapse of Edwatds, Obama got many delegates, even as HRC won.

Reading news accounts written at that time, you need to read between the lines. Of course, no one came out and said they were concerned, but the talk of superdelegates and popular vote showed a new concern that they might not have an easy time getting the pledged count.

StevieM

(10,500 posts)
304. Clinton also talked about what might be called the electoral college map.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:34 PM
Mar 2018

Looking at the primaries and caucuses through the prism of the electoral college and what it would do in the GE.

And she brought up the popular vote too. I thought both were reasonable points to make.

Remember, there have only been so many elections since the people started choosing the nominee in 1972. Most have been decisive wins. And when Mondale took the nomination in 1984 nobody suggested that he was automatically entitled to the nomination because of a PD victory.

So the sampling size is very small.

In any event, 2008 made it perfectly clear that HRC would not get the nomination if she didn't win the PDs. Bernie was never in danger of that happening. This was nothing but an attempt to belittle Hillary's candidacy and to cultivate a narrative that she was the choice of the establishment, rather than the choice of the voters.

And it was Bernie who tried to get SDs to give him the nomination. Can you imagine the vitriol that would have been spewed against HRC in 2008 if she had stayed in the race a month after the voting stopped and Obama had been declared the winner? She was skewered for not letting it be known that she would be suspending her campaign until 20 hours after the voting had concluded.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
346. It is true there were not many elections after 1972 when the rules changed
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 12:38 AM
Mar 2018

2008 was by far the closest and basically showed the super delegates would not tilt the nomination even to a very entrenched politician over a relative newcomer. I think one obvious reason is that it would cause the party to fracture. Consider the anger over the DNC emails in 2016 that were far more innocuous preferences. 2016 was more like 1984 rather than 2000 or 2004 where the winner got over 50 percent of the pledged delegates long before many contests happened.

I think she made a clear effort to make the case as you note on the popular vote, the EC, and BILL even floated HRC as a VP, who would be almost a co president in the last months of the primaries. She conceded ONLY when it was clear she had nowhere near the support needed to get the superdelegates to support her.


I agree that she would have been attacked had she continued beyond when she did. There were some from her team who continued to suggest things could change, though not Clinton herself. Sanders claimed he was working to impact the platform.

I disagree with both the popular vote WHICH DOES NOT REALLY MAKE SENSE or the argument that it should be looked at through the EC map. In fact, doing that correctly means not looking at anything but the swing states because either Democrat wins all solid blue states and loses all solid red states. In 2008, Obama did better in many swing states. (Oddly, in 2016 Sanders, who had no reasonable claim to winning, did better in many swing states. ) The point is NEITHER were the rules for getting the nomination.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
244. There were substantial efforts made to flip even pledged delegates by the Sanders people
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:56 PM
Mar 2018

I was a Clinton delegate to the national convention. We had sanders delegates attempt to flip us and one group of sanders delegates screamed at and called my daughter (who was my guest) the C-word because she would not try to convince me to change my vote. We had a group of Sanders delegates walked into the Texas delegation breakfast and demand that we condemn Hillary Clinton and vote for sanders. It was not a fun time. No pledged Clinton delegate changed their vote

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
277. Pretty stupid derisive effort
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:07 PM
Mar 2018

By the convention, Clinton had a substantial edge in pledged delicates and was clearly the favorite for the vast majority of elected officials. There was no compelling reason to overturn the choice of the voters.

When you say "Sanders people" who do you mean? People working for Sanders? Pledged delegates? I was speaking of statements before the primaries were over and as I said I thought them politically stupid.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
282. I mean members of the Sanders delegation to the national convention
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:21 PM
Mar 2018

Members of the Sanders delegations screamed at me to get me to try to change my vote. Screaming at a lawyer is not effective. What made me mad was that these idiots yelled obscenities at my daughter and called her the C-word and told her that she was a traitor to her generation. My daughter ignored these idiots but I am still angry about the way that members of the Sanders delegation treated her. As a parent, I have trouble forgiving this conduct.

A group of thirty or so members of the Texas Sanders delegation marched in during the Tuesday breakfast meeting of the delegation and demanded that we condemn Hillary Clinton and vote for Sanders. There was some fireworks due to this event. One of the older sanders delegates (a good union man) went around and apologized to the other delegates for this demonstration.

My daughter came back with some good swag from the convention and had fun at the meetings at the convention center. Planned Parenthood passed out birth control items with trump's face on them. She got a guest pass for the first night and got to hear Michele Obama speak.

LiberalArkie

(15,716 posts)
53. I wonder what difference it made when after a couple of primaries
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:27 AM
Mar 2018

it was announced that Clinton had won since she had all the superdelegates and it was impossible for any of the other primary candidates to catch up.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
57. they announced that Clinton had won in 2008 as well
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:57 AM
Mar 2018

because she had such an overwhelming early lead in super delegates. How did that turn out again?

Barring an epic collapse or withdrawal for health issues (or that indictment that was coming "any day now" for 2+ years), Clinton wrapped up the nomination after the first Super Tuesday with just conventional delegates. Since Democratic delegates are almost always apportioned by percentage of the vote, all those southern states where she won big huge margins gave her an almost insurmountable lead. (Republicans have several "winner take all" states)

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
86. That alone wasn't why it was extremely unlikely for
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:20 PM
Mar 2018

others to win. She worked her butt off for years to become a great, electable candidate, and none of the others had. Virtually all Democratic professionals across the nation supporter her for good reasons, and almost none did most of the others for good reasons. Bernie started out with 0 support among his colleagues as you'll recall, the people who knew him best.

Another "wonder" is what difference the press's extremely distorted horse race coverage made. Clinton's advantages going in were overwhelming and Sanders never really came close, but a profitable horse race was created by fooling the electorate into believing it was much closer than it was. The very day there were no longer enough delegates unwon for Sanders to win, the NYT and many other media soft-pedaled that information. The NYT instead claimed Sanders got a surge from the previous day's vote in normal header type. The article below that with a header in tiny type disclosed the reality. Really!

Bad as that was, even more egregious was that voters were never informed that a significant portion of the vote for Sanders was Trump supporters acting as spoilers. Some were conservative members of the Democratic Party (in conservative KY or WV, I forget,exit polls showed these spoilers at 37% and 44% of all those who voted for Sanders!). Others were conservatives voting Democrat in open primaries. But all admitted they had no intention of voting for Sanders if he won and would vote Republican.

How many good Democrats supporting Sanders would have voted for him if they'd realized he had no chance of winning the Democratic primary, and that the numbers looked even worse for winning the GE? Hillary supporters of course would have voted for Sanders, but a significant percentage of his own primary voters would have gone to Trump.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
233. I think you may not be remembering things as they happened. "All the superdelegates?"
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:22 PM
Mar 2018

Bernie was a superdelegate, so clearly no, not "all the superdelegates."



Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
252. Those claims are false
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:13 PM
Mar 2018

Clinton had a very large lead in pledged delegates after Super Tuesday. That lead never went down by any meaningful amount. I voted in the Texas primary and I had a friend who ran/worked on Sanders campaign. Sanders devoted people and resources to Texas and yet Clinton got 65% of the Texas delegates. With other Super Tuesday wins, this was a material lead in pledged delegates.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,621 posts)
67. Big difference in media coverage of SD's in 2008 and 2016
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:39 AM
Mar 2018

In 2016, media included the SD's in the running total of delegates needed for the nomination from the very first primary results, crafting a narrative of inevitability and an insurmountable lead for HRC.

In 2008, IIRC, the MSM highlighted only the totals of state delegates earned during primaries or caucuses, for the most part ignoring SD totals until just before the convention. This crafted a narrative that Obama had a fighting chance, and IMO, improved turnout for the later primaries.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
82. As I said above
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:14 PM
Mar 2018

Barring an epic collapse or withdrawal for health issues (or that indictment that was coming "any day now" for 2+ years), Clinton wrapped up the nomination after the first Super Tuesday with just conventional delegates. Since Democratic delegates are almost always apportioned by percentage of the vote, all those southern states where she won big huge margins gave her an almost insurmountable lead. (Republicans have several "winner take all" states)

Oh, and superdelegates pledged to Clinton was an issue for Democrats even before the Iowa Caucuses in 2008. it became bigger again later in the process because Clinton was narrowly behind Obama for the last 2 months of the campaign and some Clinton people brought up the idea of superdelegates overturning the results. After Super Tuesday 2016, Clinton was ahead by over 150 delegates, while in 2008, while Obama was only ahead by 27 delegates after the equivalent Super Tuesday.

By the end of March 2008, Obama was only ahead by 30 delegates, while in 2016, Clinton had extended her lead to about 200 delegates at the end of March. That it was a race was a creation of the media because it didn't look at the facts of what was happening - Sanders netting +14 delegates in Indiana, Rhode Island and West Virginia and doesn't come close to offsetting Clinton just winning Maryland and netting +25 delegates (60 for Clinton, 35 for Sanders)

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
121. Created a narrative or did not 100 percent buy the Clinton narrative?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:29 PM
Mar 2018

BOTH were in the media after Super Tuesday. The Clinton team argued that the winner of pledged delegates would not necessarily win. The Obama surrogates, especially Kerry, argued that they could not see the superdelegates putting their finger on the scale against an acceptable candidate who won the popular vote.

Both arguments were heard and the superdelegates did what Kerry predicted, not what the Clinton team spoke of. The first sign that would happen is when many elected politicians said they would go with the winner of the pledged delegates.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,621 posts)
295. Not in 2016
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:51 PM
Mar 2018

While the text of an article may have made mention of how many in the delegate total were SD’s , the standard practice in 2016, which was quite striking to me, was to report the aggregate delegate totals in “horse race “ fashion, with a bar graphic showing how close each candidate was to crossing the “finish line” to cinching the nomination, with MAYBE and asterisk noting what portion was SD’s.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
300. "a narrative of inevitability and an insurmountable lead"
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:23 PM
Mar 2018

Along with magnifying every single possible "crooked Clinton" narrative, no matter how ficticious.

The fallout has followed a familiar pattern: Republicans seize on an inaccurate report — often one they pushed into the media in the first place — and Democrats point to what's wrong in the story to undermine what's right with it. Pretty soon, the narrative emanates out from the original source of the reporting to conservative and liberal television pundits and radio talk-show hosts, ensuring that the details, and the truth, will be casualties of the never-ending political war over Clinton.

That is, at some point it no longer matters whether she did anything wrong or whether there's any malice or misjudgment behind her actions. Indeed, the cloud around many big Clinton stories is so thick and toxic that it's hard to get to the bottom of whether she's the perpetrator or victim of bad deeds.



https://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9059953/clinton-rules-new-york-times


So, yeah, the media wasn't her friend.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,621 posts)
334. During the general, absolutely, but the MSM wanted HRC to be the nominee
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:09 PM
Mar 2018

The MSM wanted a Trump vs. Clinton matchup.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
354. I think you are ignoring the long history of biased media coverage against HRC.
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 09:01 AM
Mar 2018

And can you tell me how "the MSM" wanted her to be the Nominee?

I'm also curious as to what media you trust. What media do you rely on for information?

Fiendish Thingy

(15,621 posts)
367. I have no blanket trust in any particular media source
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 11:53 AM
Mar 2018

I tend to get information from original source reporting, such as Reuters, AP, Propublica, occasionally WaPo. Internationally, CBC, BBC and the Guardian are pretty good. Anything I see on DU or FB that interests or concerns me, I follow back to the original source. I like some of the front pagers at Daily Kos who link back to the original sources throughout their diaries.

Other than election returns and the odd natural disaster, I haven't willingly watched US televison news either network or cable, since 9/11 / start of the Iraq War.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
368. So Reuters, AP, Propublica, WaPo. CBC, BBC and the Guardian
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 12:03 PM
Mar 2018

don't fall under the umbrella "MSM" that "wanted a Hillary Trump election?"

Why do you think that is?

Fiendish Thingy

(15,621 posts)
369. I would say WaPo is certainly part of the MSM narrative crafting machine
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 12:16 PM
Mar 2018

Especially regarding how SD's were reported/calculated in crafting the "Horserace" narrative.

The MSM's goal is to sell advertising, and maximize readership/viewers to maximize ad revenue. Horserace reporting (along with gaffe and scandal-of-the-day) is preferred by publishers/producers over substantive, issue based reporting for that reason.

 

Smitty63nnn

(59 posts)
5. WOW - A change?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:14 AM
Mar 2018

It's about time our party starts to eliminate the corruption. Maybe more people will vote now. No one likes to play against people that have a stacked deck. Fair is fair. I think this may actually save the party. Time will tell.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
20. except that it's not a stacked deck, superdelegates have never overturned the voters
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:55 AM
Mar 2018

they've always simply gone with the result created by the voters in the primaries and caucuses.

that said, that is one of the reasons i'm fine with not letting them have voting power, but the idea they've used their voting power to change election results --it just hasn't happened.

femmedem

(8,203 posts)
28. But they could conceivably influence turnout or who people vote for.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:13 AM
Mar 2018

Once a candidate reaches the nomination threshold with superdelegates, people could feel less inclined to turn out for a primary.

And if a candidate has a substantial number of superdelegates supporting them, they could be seen as the overwhelming frontrunner before many votes are cast, and get different media coverage as a result.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
39. it could conceivably do that, but it hasn't done it yet
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:41 AM
Mar 2018

the only thing we've seen in recent years is the superdelegates being called on to overrule the results of the primary and caucus process.

thankfully they didn't. but the idea that they could is problematic for me.

so my admittedly non expert opinion is that even this possibility and its discussion is harmful to the party and the legitimacy of the process, only the pledged delegates should vote.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
97. Femmedem, conversely 0 of Sanders colleagues endorsed him.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:43 PM
Mar 2018

Almost none of the delegates would commit to him, and he asked hundreds. The people who'd worked with him for years and knew him best. Are you suggesting that democracy can only be served well by voters not knowing what people in the know think of our candidates?

I suggest that knowing who and what Democratic professionals support, and above all WHY, is a very good thing. The reasons, good and bad, why our most knowledgeable, involved people made the choices they did should always be examined before then agreeing or dismissing them as we choose.

Some people, like Smitty just now, always choose to imagine that our party is riddled with and driven by corruption. And of course, if those who care enough to spend their lives in politics don't support those people's favored candidates, corruption becomes their no-brainer answer. That's not the route to wise, informed decisions.

femmedem

(8,203 posts)
281. No, I'm not suggesting that at all.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:18 PM
Mar 2018

Anyone who has worked with and knows a candidate should be free to make any endorsements or public statements that he or she wants.

But I am suggesting that democracy can be well served by the principle of one person, one vote.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
379. Seems to me you wanted to erase advantage of
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 05:08 PM
Mar 2018

good opinion that some candidates coming into campaigns have so that advantage doesn't influence voters. Should we keep the press from talking about candidates lest they inadvertently influence voters?

Femmedem: "But they could conceivably influence turnout or who people vote for. Once a candidate reaches the nomination threshold with superdelegates, people could feel less inclined to turn out for a primary."


Note that this goes both ways. Rejection of a candidate by all who worked with that candidate and by most knew something about that one was actually considered a plus by many who became ardent supporters in part because of it.

Takes all kinds. But all need information, and the freedom comes with what we all make of it.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
246. This is a proposal only and has not been adopted
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:59 PM
Mar 2018

To change the rules, two-thirds of the members of the DNC will have to vote for this change.

I support the Congressional Black Caucus which is opposed to this proposed change. The CBC hopefuly have the votes to block this change

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
7. How are they going to accomplish one of the goals -- which was to make sure that POC
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:16 AM
Mar 2018

were adequately represented among delegates?

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
21. call superdelegates non-voting guests of the convention
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:57 AM
Mar 2018

this way they don't crowd out the lay party people at the local level, yet they still get invites to the convention and they don't vote.

our party is much more diverse at the elected level than in the past so it wouldn't be as bad as it was when the superdelegate system was created, but it could still be a problem obviously.

problem solved.

MichMan

(11,932 posts)
40. I dunno, maybe just select POC as regular delegates?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:43 AM
Mar 2018

Want more POC as delegates, why not just select them when choosing the regular delegates?

Why is it necessary to have a separate super delegate system for that? Unless you are suggesting that the blue state Democratic party leadership is somehow inherently racist ?

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
56. Winner!
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:47 AM
Mar 2018

State parties can, and should, consider diversity as one of the requirements for selecting their delegates to the national convention.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
11. I agree. We need to get rid of caucuses. No question, they're the least Democratic way to choose a
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:26 AM
Mar 2018

candidate.

That should be a big push.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
41. i think we should shift to primaries where they're available, though many places they aren't
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:45 AM
Mar 2018

we're at the mercy of states scheduling their primaries early enough for our presidential nominating process.

in that case, especially in red states, some of them simply won't schedule a primary for early in a presidential year, certainly not just because Democrats insist on it.

in those cases we'll be stuck with caucuses and also for Iowa because the caucus process has a huge amount of support in that state, i don't think that one's going away for quite a while.

but for state with primaries that don't use them to select delegates --Hawaii, Washington state, etc., the primary should be used, it's fairer and allows more people to participate.

angrychair

(8,699 posts)
59. You mentioned Washington
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:09 AM
Mar 2018

We have a caucus early on that selects delegates and our state party pays for it ourselves. The primary is non-binding because of the aforementioned scheduling issues.

I’ve been in primary and caucus states and both have their pluses and minuses.

The time it takes is hardly a factor if you have to physically go to a polling station to vote as that can take an hour or more as well.

I do agree it is a long, drawn out process that many don’t appreciate or have the patience for but to a certain extent isn’t that the problem?
Our options are to make people stop and think or mindlessly check a box (in far to many cases see congressional approval ratings vs. incumbency rate) and walk away.
There has to be a happy medium. A much longer conversation than I’m willing to type or many would be willing to read.

angrychair

(8,699 posts)
60. Not necessarily
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:17 AM
Mar 2018

I do agree the caucus process is a long, drawn out process that many don’t appreciate or have the patience for but to a certain extent isn’t that the problem?
At least a caucus can get someone to stop and think and even be converted to another candidate’s side. We need a national voting holiday, which would help a lot with time availability and streamline the process a little and ensure military and other absentee voters have input.
To many see voting as just something they do, almost mindlessly checking a box (in far to many cases see congressional approval ratings vs. incumbency rate) and walk away.
A much longer conversation really but I still think caucusing serves a valid purpose, it just needs tweaking.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
104. It saves the state money - that's the purpose.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:51 PM
Mar 2018

And it allows a small group of very enthusiastic and loud group of people to bully others in the room to choose their candidate, even though a majority of residents don't support that candidate.


Low voter turn out

It’s common knowledge that voter turnout in America is lower than most nations, but compare the numbers of voters who vote in primary systems to those who vote in caucus systems and it’s hard not to conclude that the process of the caucus system fosters lower voter turnout. In the all- important Iowa Caucus, heralded for its importance in deciding who ends up winning the nomination, a mere 16.1 percent of the voting eligible population took part in the last presidential election, whereas the equally important New Hampshire primary election had a voter turnout of 53.6 percent.

Fringe groups control the process

With so much time being required to fully participate in caucuses it would make sense that those that choose to participate are those that are most passionate about politics. And those who are most passionate often have views that differ from the general populace. With such a small amount of the voting populace participating in the system it is easy to conceive that a small radical group would be able to commit the time needed to pick delegates and candidates whose viewpoints would appease their own, but likely differ from the views of the majority of people. While some would argue that it is their reward for taking the time to participate, looking at the numbers of those who participate in primary elections it can be fathomed that the caucus system itself discourage the average voter more so than the primary system.


https://www.ksl.com/?nid=599&sid=17982638

angrychair

(8,699 posts)
114. You link only re-enforces my points
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:17 PM
Mar 2018

We need a national voting holiday.

Sorry, the second point about “fringe groups” is garbage. It’s criticism is that caucuses are only attended by passionate voters so we should do away with them is faulty reasoning. Because people don’t care enough about who gets elected we should penalize and criticize those that do? That’s a seriously jaded perspective.
I’d rather the people that actually care make the choices than the jaded and apathetic. It’s that very perspective that creates that awkward dichotomy of super low approval ratings for congress but 97% incumbency rates and people that do little to nothing but spend 30 years in DC.

I’m not saying the caucus process is better or worse. As I stated, it needs tweaking and we need a national voting holiday. The thing is we need to start playing toward our better traits and discouraging the bad traits. Meaning we should not be so jaded about the political process that we cater to the apathetic and clueless voter.

The caucus process ensures that, at least at some level, we have active and involved voter participation and we need more of that and not less.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
117. I think it's worse.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:20 PM
Mar 2018

And at the very least we need to transfer all of them to "firehouse caucuses."

Currently caucuses disenfranchise voters, and actual caucus participants who are not young or healthy enough for marathon sessions, have jobs that are hourly or otherwise don't allow for time off, don't have transportation to the caucus location.

And yes, they give fringe candidates a leg up if they can get mobilize caucus delegates who are not in the above categories.



angrychair

(8,699 posts)
131. Clarification
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:39 PM
Mar 2018
Currently caucuses disenfranchise voters


I helped run a couple of caucuses here in Washington (just over the last several years but a lot more experience with primaries) and I definitely didn’t see that.
I think the time and process is a factor, I get that, but so is standing in a line for two hours to vote.
I think that is unfairly loaded language as I can attest that everyone at my caucus had a right to talk and vote how they wanted.

For the record, I am perfectly fine with a firehouse caucus as long as we get a national voter holiday.

angrychair

(8,699 posts)
148. I dont think that you are necessarily
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:07 PM
Mar 2018

But at least some of the problems you referenced are not inherently the fault of the caucus process per se but more a symptom of the jaded and apathetic approach we take toward voting, of which a national voting holiday is a key component to fixing it.

The objective to fixing this problem should be to get voters engaged and to care about who they send to DC or their state capital.
Im not saying you are against that only making a broader point that the problem isn’t caucuses, the problem is how we do voting in this country period.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
315. A federal election holiday only applies to federal employees.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:04 PM
Mar 2018

State holiday applies only to state employees.

angrychair

(8,699 posts)
319. A federal holiday is a federal holiday
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:23 PM
Mar 2018

Meaning a holiday no different than Presidents Day or Thanksgiving

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
321. Exactly which is why making voting a holiday doesnt solve anything.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:36 PM
Mar 2018

Private employers are under no obligation to give those days off to employees.

angrychair

(8,699 posts)
338. Were obviously talking to cross purposes
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:33 PM
Mar 2018

Turning that Tuesday into a national holiday is definitely part of the solution.

Yes, just as employers are free to ignore Independence Day or Thanksgiving, they could just as well ignore this one. That really isn’t the point. It would likely make it things easier and possibly let their employees have it as a holiday and make it that much easier to get out and vote with a little less stress and worry.

It is better than nothing which is what we have now.

PatrickforO

(14,576 posts)
52. I agree with that. Primaries with a nice, long voting period and easy drop-off ballots would
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:26 AM
Mar 2018

encourage more voters to actually fill out their ballots and turn them in.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
9. I guess they've decided to ignore the Black Congressional Caucus.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:22 AM
Mar 2018

What does that say about the proposal?

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
124. Sanders collides with black lawmakers
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:35 PM
Mar 2018

The CBC is against this proposal https://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/bernie-sanders-black-caucus-superdelegates-224502

"The Democratic Members of the Congressional Black Caucus recently voted unanimously to oppose any suggestion or idea to eliminate the category of Unpledged Delegate to the Democratic National Convention (aka Super Delegates) and the creation of uniform open primaries in all states," says the letter, which was obtained by POLITICO. "The Democratic Party benefits from the current system of unpledged delegates to the National Convention by virtue of rules that allow members of the House and Senate to be seated as a delegate without the burdensome necessity of competing against constituents for the honor of representing the state during the nominating process."

The letter — which was also sent to Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz — follows a Wednesday CBC meeting where members discussed for over an hour the impact of eliminating superdelegates on the African-American community, according to CBC Chairman Rep. G.K. Butterfield (D-N.C.).

"We passed a resolution in our caucus that we would vehemently oppose any change in the superdelegate system because members of the CBC might want to participate in the Democratic convention as delegates but if we would have to run for the delegate slot at the county level or state level or district level, we would be running against our constituents and we're not going to do that,” said Butterfield. “But we want to participate as delegates and that's why this superdelegates system was created in the beginning, so members would not have to run against their own constituents."

The opposition to open primaries is based on the fear that allowing independent or Republican voters to participate in Democratic primaries would dilute minority voting strength in many places.

lapucelle

(18,268 posts)
324. I'm glad the CBC also addressed the abuse of the open primary system.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:40 PM
Mar 2018

We had a Republican who primaried a Democrat in my county this year. (The candidate in the Republican primary ran unopposed.) If my state did not have closed primaries, we could have hafd two Republicans running in the general.

 

Wwcd

(6,288 posts)
10. This move has the lingering stench of Tad Devine.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:23 AM
Mar 2018

Paul & Tad ~ global electioneers with a well written script

Makes me cringe to watch the intentional erosion of democray's protections and the ever convincing polished spin it takes to pull off the subtle shift away from one of the few firewall's we have left.







leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
32. Yes, it does indeed.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:31 AM
Mar 2018

I hope Democrats can win with Indies because they will lose half of the Democratic voters if they do this.

 

Wwcd

(6,288 posts)
38. The indies brought Devine's corrupt way of business into 2015/16.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:36 AM
Mar 2018

Or maybe it was corrupt Tad that brought the "indies"

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
23. I don't think you'll be able to do that in every case though
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:08 AM
Mar 2018

Yes, I think primaries are more democratic and also allow secret ballots, more access to working people and the disabled and those who wish to vote by mail or vote early.

That said, we are at the mercy of states to schedule presidential primaries early enough for us to complete our nominating process. If the primaries are too late, many are in June, August, September, for example, and if states won't schedule them early (especially red states who are not going to do the Democrats any favors) the *only* way to have that state participate is via primary.

So while I'd encourage it, we're going to have some caucuses persist anyway, not to mention that in the case of Iowa, the party members have historically preferred the caucus and likely won't want to change it and there's that. But in the case of say, Washington state where the primary is early enough to count, but only the caucus actually counts, I think that's ridiculous.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
65. Understood
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:37 AM
Mar 2018

I just fucking hate the caucus system. Don't like the idea it takes all day, don't like that votes can be "bought". The whole thing just rubs me the wrong way.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
15. I was OK with the Unity Proposal
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:39 AM
Mar 2018

DNC Sanders supporters agreed to it. They aren't the majority. I am surprised to see any movement to go beyond the Unity Proposal. Curious what the full back story is

Vinca

(50,276 posts)
16. I have to break with the crowd. I think it's a good idea.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:39 AM
Mar 2018

No individual should have the power to sway an election to a direction other than the wishes of the rank and file voters.

True Blue American

(17,985 posts)
24. So am I
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:09 AM
Mar 2018

In agreement!

I also think we need to get rid of the Electoral system that was set in place when only landowners could vote and blacks were slaves.

 

Wwcd

(6,288 posts)
33. That is a bit of a loaded statement..
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:31 AM
Mar 2018

The entire 2015 /2016 election was the power swaying the election to a direction other than the wishes of the rank and file voters.

2015
With the Democratic Primary, it is the rank & file voters that this system was set up to protect.
----------------

The entire 2015 /2016 election was the power swaying the election to a direction other than the wishes of the rank and file voters.

2016
The power of "Money & Media".
The coup continues with the eroding of norms & protections that are in place against usurpers.

brush

(53,784 posts)
62. I say reduce the number but keep some protection against a trump-like candidate. The repugs...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:27 AM
Mar 2018

wish that they had had super delegates in 2016.

And make sure POCs are represented among the super delegates.

Vinca

(50,276 posts)
260. Not just caucuses, but primaries, too.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:35 PM
Mar 2018

I'll use my state as an example. In NH Bernie won 60% of the vote and Hillary won 38%. They each left the state with 15 delegates because all 6 super delegates were for Hillary. Bernie had a 22% advantage when it came to pledged delegates because of his 60% of the vote, but the state was essentially a tie in the delegate count because of the supers. That essentially negated the votes of people who voted for Bernie. It irked me then and it irks me now.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
263. Anyone who voted for Hillary in Indiana got their vote negated in the General.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:40 PM
Mar 2018

It irks me, too, but that's why it's called a Red State.

All candidates going into a primary know the rules. By throwing their hat in the ring, they are agreeing to those rules.

Bernie understands the system - in fact, he was a Superdelegate.


Vinca

(50,276 posts)
269. That's not the point and Bernie isn't the point. Any candidate should face an unweighted delegate
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:46 PM
Mar 2018

count. I'm not rehashing the last primary, just thinking of the next. Having supers guarantees that a candidate who is a favorite among party bigwigs will have an advantage even if the rank and file prefer otherwise.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
18. Let them go to the convention but don't let them vote
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:52 AM
Mar 2018

One reason they were created was to allow grassroots participation among the rank and file who if they had to compete with elected officials (who are now superdelegates) would likely not be able to be delegates themselves. However, if our current superdelegates were allowed to attend the conventions without voting power but as welcomed guests, then that might be the best of both worlds.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
22. although i'm open to the idea of not having Superdelegates vote...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:01 AM
Mar 2018

by calling them "superdelegates" as a group it anonymizes them and sort of blurs who they are as individuals.

so if you ask people if superdelegates should have a vote in the selection of the nominee, people would say, who are they? NO.

but if you ask if John Lewis and Nancy Pelosi should have a vote, a significant number would say yes.

that said, diversifying the delegate ranks didn't require giving superdelegates voting power.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
127. Congressional Black Caucus balks at two political reforms being pitched by Bernie Sanders
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:38 PM
Mar 2018

I agree with the CBC https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06/19/congressional-black-caucus-balks-at-two-political-reforms-being-pitched-by-bernie-sanders/?utm_term=.f11b38ba20af

In a letter sent to Sanders and Clinton on Saturday, the Democratic members of the Congressional Black Caucus said they oppose changes in both areas.

The Democrats utilize a system under which candidates win pledged delegates based on their performance in primaries and caucuses, but also seek support from superdelegates, Democratic elected officials and other party elites who have a say on the nomination but are not bound by the results in their states.

The letter, first reported by Politico, said that the current system “has worked quite well” because it allows members of Congress to serve as superdelegates “without the burdensome necessity of competing against constituents for the honor of representing the state during the nominating process.”

“There is no need to succumb to the pressure of a few individuals to make this change,” said the letter, signed by Rep. G.K. Butterfield (D-N.C.), chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus.

all american girl

(1,788 posts)
27. So they want to get rid of SDs, that have never mattered when it comes to the nom, but
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:10 AM
Mar 2018

not caucuses, that really hurt voters...what is wrong with these people? bernie was the only one who wanted to use the SDs to overturn the popular vote, so I guess getting rid of them means we don't have to hear the bs excuse that the primaries are rigged...but what is really rigged are the caucuses, I want to hear the same loud complaints about them, but I'm sure we won't.

 

tomp

(9,512 posts)
34. superdelegates is a totally undemocratic idea, like the electoral college.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:32 AM
Mar 2018

If the electoral college were to work properly we would have president clinton. That system did not work when it absolutely needed to.

The only way a superdelegate system makes any sense is if it would stop a similar situation in the democratic party. If the superdelegates just go along with the popular vote they are useless. If they go against the popular vote for the wrong reasons they are worse than useless.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
35. The best rule change we could make?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:32 AM
Mar 2018

Only Democrats allowed to run in our Democratic primaries!

If you're an independent, start your own freakin' party!

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
402. We have to be "good" and follow the TOS guidelines, she.
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 08:56 AM
Mar 2018

Hopefully, the Democratic Party has learned from "the other aberration" in our 2016 presidential election cycle.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
47. That's for sure, Cha!
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:57 AM
Mar 2018

But as Bernie said, "Independent presidential candidates don't have a chance."

still_one

(92,216 posts)
44. How about this headline instead? "SOME Democrats are considering".
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:51 AM
Mar 2018

SD were created as a safety valve to reduce the odds against having a fight on the Convention Floor, and to reduce the possibility of someone who is ideological extreme.

The best example of this is trump. Trump got nominated by the republican party which essentially does not have SD. In other words, the republican party ended up nominating a racist, sexist, bigot. Because there was no safety valve, and because they had a lot of candidates in the nomination process, their most extreme candidate got nominated


HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
58. Tired of this argument
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:07 AM
Mar 2018

The Republicans got the candidate that they wanted. Trump is still supported by the vast majority of Republicans. A limit on Democracy (Electoral College) brought us Trump.

still_one

(92,216 posts)
102. Just a simple observation. During the primaries trump got about 25% of the republican vote with
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:51 PM
Mar 2018

the rest going to the other repugs running. They split the vote during their early primaries so none had a majority, and those who had little chance stayed in too long which which by the time the others finally dropped out, trump had accumulated enough delegates that the more viable ones had no chance to catch up. The math really isn’t that complicated

As for the statement regarding the electoral college, that became a factor after Comey sent the emails to the republicans in Congress 11 days before the election, and the media said that the email investigation was reopened, which was a lie.

To make the situation worse there were those self-identified progressives who either refused to vote for the Democratic nominee, or didn’t bother to vote, some because they believed the bullshit that there was no difference between republicans and Democrats

Every Democrat running for Senate in those critical swing states lost to the incumbent, establishment, republican

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
46. Superdelegates are needed until the party tightens up its qualifications on who's allowed to run...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 09:54 AM
Mar 2018

... Democrats ONLY (at least for 12 months)... and until the States get rid of caucuses and "open primaries" ... and until there's a party-wide (or nationwide) requirement that candidates must provide at least five years worth of complete tax returns (non-redacted, full-not summaries, no excuses, no exceptions.)

Me.

(35,454 posts)
84. I'm With You
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:18 PM
Mar 2018

It seems the complaints about supers are based on one campaigns declaration of them being unfair

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
399. I am with you 100%, Jackie.
Sun Mar 11, 2018, 10:57 PM
Mar 2018

All that you said needs to be addressed long before the SD debate. Sad to see this being pushed as a real issue when we have far more issues that would protect our votes.

Seems to me that...hmm...never mind.

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
49. Good...
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:00 AM
Mar 2018

Get rid of them as there is no such thing as a "Superdelegate" in what's supposed to be a Democracy.

randr

(12,412 posts)
50. At our local precinct caucus we passed proposal to do away with SD--again this year
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:18 AM
Mar 2018

Grass roots politics rule in Colorado. Those of us who have participated at the State Conventions know full well how the SDs think they can run the show. They lost the first time with Obama and at the last convention with Bernie.
How sweet is was!

PatrickforO

(14,576 posts)
54. What are SDs? I went to the caucus in Colorado. Not many people there just
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:28 AM
Mar 2018

because it was for a few candidates for governor and to add planks to the platform. But what is an SD?

left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
51. Get rid of them
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 10:23 AM
Mar 2018

Let the voters pick the candidate.

'Super delegates" smells like the old days of smoke filled rooms and secret deals telling
'we, the people' who should represent 'us'.

 

Devil Child

(2,728 posts)
63. This is a good move
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:30 AM
Mar 2018

The proposal however doesn't call for a total removal of superdelegates but their reduction by 60%. I'd say go for total removal of the superdelagate system but this is a start in proper direction.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
132. Black Caucus plans to defend Democrats' use of superdelegates
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:41 PM
Mar 2018

I support the CBC http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/06/superdelegates_black_caucus.html

The Congressional Black Caucus, on the other hand, says the super delegate system provides for minority representation that otherwise wouldn't exist at the party's national convention.

Sanders, who hasn't yet conceded the race to Clinton but has no conceivable way to win the nomination, is reportedly still trying to get rid of the super delegate mechanism before he steps aside.

But black lawmakers intend to hold the line. Democratic strategist Doug Thornell, who was formerly the Congressional Black Caucus' communications director, told Politico, "Sanders did a lot of things right in this campaign, he did a lot better than expected. At the same time he seemed to have a lack of understanding or lack of relationships with black leaders that you saw ultimately hurt him in South Carolina and other states with big black electorates. And this is something that the CBC is going to be very passionate and push back against. This is a way that African-American officials can represent their district and have a say in the process. They're not going to go along with this at all."

IADEMO2004

(5,554 posts)
64. Super Delegates are not space aliens. We elected them.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:33 AM
Mar 2018

They are Democrats. They have been Democrats. They will be Democrats.

dembotoz

(16,807 posts)
69. The super delegates are the convention eye candy
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 11:43 AM
Mar 2018

They aren't going anywhere..big name interviews drive ratings, not Suzy nobody from nowhere wearing her 500 campaign buttons

Me.

(35,454 posts)
83. Aside From The Sanders Campaign
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:15 PM
Mar 2018

has any other campaign complained about the process being unfair because of the supers?

 

Wwcd

(6,288 posts)
113. Nope. Tad Devine knew exactly how to break the Dem Party
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:15 PM
Mar 2018

From his previous time spent in the Dem campaigns.
While Manafort was shoring up the "rigged" Ukraine election, Tad was back in the US getting to know the Dem Party's inner workings.

His time in SAmerica & other chaotic elections brought his skillset straight to Americas strength of Its fair governance. The Democratic Party.

The move to break the strength of the Dems was a process over the course of years & 2015/16 brought it all together with Manafort's work in behalf of Putin.

This isn't the fist gov't 's demise Tad & Paul have orchrestrated.

It's what they do.
That is how a coup is created.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
152. I May Be Wrong About This
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:15 PM
Mar 2018

but wasn't Devine influential in setting up the superdelegate system in the first place?

 

Wwcd

(6,288 posts)
154. He knew how to undo it also.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:22 PM
Mar 2018

There's more to this story.
I'll get it for you when I'm back home later this afternoon.

Devine had far too much power in the Democratic Party, & considering his history of work with Manafort around the world, he better be on Mueller's list along with Paul.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
156. Google Was My Friend
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 02:23 PM
Mar 2018

“Ironically, Tad Devine, Sanders’ top adviser, who was instrumental in the creation of the superdelegate process, defended their existence.

“It’s pretty hard to win a nomination in a contested race and almost impossible to win without the superdelegeates,” Devine said in 2008 in an interview on NPR."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/super-delegates-center-democratic-nomination-fight-again-n516891

“Tad Devine, a senior adviser to Sanders' campaign, was actually involved in the creation of superdelegates, as a way to get party officials more involved in selecting the Democratic nominee.

"That was always done with the understanding that the voters would determine the outcome of this process, and I think they'll do it this time," Devine said back in February when the superdelegate controversy was flaring up after the New Hampshire primary.”




Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
96. very bad idea, but if they do it...need to include winner take all primaries and no
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:43 PM
Mar 2018

more caucuses...or we end up with candidates too close. Imagine what would have happened in 16 without supers...there would have been court action I think.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
236. There are no winner take all primaries under Democratic Party rules
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:25 PM
Mar 2018

The GOP rules allows for some later stage winner take all primaries but all Democratic primaries are based on proportional allocation. Caucuses are where one can play games and violate the proportional representation rules provided for in the Democratic party rules.

I was a delegate to the National Convention and I read the DNC party rules, the rules of the Texas Democratic Party and the rules of several other states.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
357. Well we have to change those rule because consider what would happen if no
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 09:28 AM
Mar 2018

candidate got to the magic number for nomination... It has to be set up so there is a clear winner. I prefer our method now to that but if we lose the supers...we have no choice or it sets us up for epic primary battles, and we don't need that. We should keep supers to prevent primary battles where the losing candidate causes much trouble and refuses to accept his /her loss. It could happen. For those how are reading this no...I am not referring to the 16 primary or Sen. Sanders...we had supers and 16 has nothing to do with this...talking about the future. Supers have been just fine for years...only one exception.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
361. In the real world, this change is not needed
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 10:16 AM
Mar 2018

I dislike winner take all primaries and I like the proportional allocation system under the current Democratic Party rules

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
362. I agree...but if you lose the supers...there is little choice because anyone close election could
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 10:44 AM
Mar 2018

result in litigation and a bitter fight. You have to make it so we have a clear winner...maybe we don't have a number needed to win the nomination but only a simple majority....I don't know. But eliminating supers is fraught with peril. Consider the bitter fight in 16 with protestors at our convention. What would have happened if there were not supers to put the clear winner over the top and give the candidate who won the most votes the nomination? There could have been litigation and all sorts of shenanigans. Both Hillary and Barack needed supers to put them over the top. We just have to make it so we don't end up with a big mess on our hands.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
370. This thread is based on a discussion of a proposed rule
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 03:13 PM
Mar 2018

That rule is opposed by key groups in the Democratic coalition and is only being pushed by splinted groups aligned with a person who is not a member of the party. to pass this rule change will requite the vote of two-thirds of the DNC delegates.

I would not hold my breath.

I am glad that we got away from the winner take all days. Even the GOP has limited winner take all events.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
107. I think it's a good idea, so that means it probably won't happen. Establishment Dems run the show.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 12:55 PM
Mar 2018

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
115. Congressional Black Caucus: Keep superdelegate system in place
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:19 PM
Mar 2018

I agree with the CBC http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/dem-primaries/284065-congressional-black-caucus-keep-superdelegate-system-in-place

The Congressional Black Caucus is against eliminating superdelegates, putting the group at odds with Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders.

In a letter first reported by Politico, the CBC also said it is against allowing independents and Republicans to vote in Democratic primaries.

Both suggestions have been championed by the Sanders campaign.

"The Democratic Members of the Congressional Black Caucus recently voted unanimously to oppose any suggestion or idea to eliminate the category of Unpledged Delegate to the Democratic National Convention (aka Super Delegates) and the creation of uniform open primaries in all states," says the letter.

It was sent to both Democratic presidential campaigns, as well as to Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (Nev.), House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) and Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

KPN

(15,646 posts)
162. Wait a minute. That was summer 2016 when Sanders
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:11 PM
Mar 2018

was fresh off having tried to sway Superdelegates to him. Does the CBC today hold the same position? Why?

KPN

(15,646 posts)
170. Okay. But why? What's their rationale?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:29 PM
Mar 2018

The whole superdelegate thing seems to be about distrust and/or stacking the deck to me. Don't we trust Democrats to make good choices?

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
171. I ran and was elected as a delegate to the 2016 convention
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:34 PM
Mar 2018

It was a pain and took a great deal of work and some expense. CBC members like Al Green and Sheila Jackson Lee have earned their right to be a delegate without any hassle. I had fun with Al Green, Beto O'Rourke and Joaquin Castro at the convention.

If we are going to elect good Democrats like Al Green, Sheila Jackson Lee and other members of the CBC, then we should not take away their right to go to the convention.

I will be seeing Sheila and Al at events between now and the state convention in July. If you want, I will ask them.

KPN

(15,646 posts)
184. Interesting and cool! Actually, I would like to hear what their rationale is.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:06 PM
Mar 2018

I have absolutely no problem with our Democratic federal legislators, Governors and DNC members attending the convention, but I see no reason (no convincing rationale at least -- maybe I'm missing something) why they should have a vote on the basis of their position alone. I would think they would all easily be elected as a delegate in their respective Counties, districts, States. If the concern is giving more people an opportunity to participate as delegates, then increase the number of elected delegates. Alternatively, bind them all to voting with the majority votre of their respective States. Either way would work for me.

Again, my concern is that the whole system (superdelegates) is based in a total lack of faith in our membership en-masse to make good choices for the party and the country.

BTW, as a somewhat active member in the party locally, I'm sure it is a pain, work and somewhat expensive to run and get elected as a delegate. I haven't tried myself, partly for those reasons and others, though I do think both running for and serving as a delegate would be a terrific experience. I certainly applaud and admire you for doing so.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
237. There is no lack of faith in our membership as to the party rules
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:38 PM
Mar 2018

That claim is simply false. I am active with my party. Yes, some of the groups who backed one candidate are unhappy but they are not that significant portion of the party regulars who show up for all events. The only persons pushing en mass for a change of the rules are some splinter groups associated with one candidate and these groups do not represent a majority of the party.

As for being a delegate, it was something that was on my list of things to do. My middle child was a chaperon for a group of high school students who went to Denver and had fun. One of my law school classmates had fun with her at the Texas delegation breakfast. Juanita Jean and her husband went to the 2012 convention and they have some great stories. This is not a cheap trip and I missed some events. I did get to hear Congressman John Lewis tell his "preaching to chickens" story for the fourth time and I got some great pictures of Congressmen Lewis and Ellison standing next to Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

I understand that some groups associated with a particular candidate may dislike super delegates but I really have not seen any widespread dislike for super delegates in the real world among the people who actually work on the ground.

KPN

(15,646 posts)
294. I didn't make that claim. What I said is
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:47 PM
Mar 2018

the rationale for superdelegates in the first place is fundamentally based in a mistrust/lack of faith in the people who vote in the primaries, a safety valve in the case of poor judgement on the part of voters. That implies a lack of faith in the people, in the party's overall membership. That's what my comment meant.

It squarely strikes me that if we as a party are going to profess and defend the virtues of democracy, of one person one vote, of every citizen has a right to vote and be counted equally, shouldn't we model that as a party?

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
373. You are wrong about the reasons for super delegates
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 03:30 PM
Mar 2018

One of the major reasons is to make sure that the Party's elected leaders have a role in party functions and decisions. The persons who are super delegates are elected officials who are leaders in the party. Fro example, the members of the CBC should be super delegates and I support their opposition to this proposed rule change.

As for the claim of democracy, do you understand how regular delegates are elected? I have been through this process and there is a ton of politics. I knew that I had to be elected at the senate district caucuses because the at large process was stacked towards elected officials and major donors. The people who get elected at the Senate District caucuses to be national delegates are people who are vetted and who have strong party ties. The at large delegates are mostly state elected officials who are not super delegates and major donors. For example, Texas has 11 or 12 state senators who are democrats and all of these state senators were elected as at large delegates. One of these state senators is a law school classmate and he was at the 2008 convention because he had fun introducing my middle child who was at the Denver convention as a chaperon for a group of high school students to some of the party leaders. At the convention, I sat next to a state court district judge, a state representative, and my classmate who is a state senator.

The attacks on the super delegate process are amusing to me but then again, i have seen the entire process up close

KPN

(15,646 posts)
386. Not true. As I have always understood it,
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 06:38 PM
Mar 2018

Superdelegates were established to avoid what happened at the 72 convention, i.e., ensure well-ordered conventions absent crises caused by "insurgents" (elected delegates); to give special attention to Senators generally didn't want to be bothered with having to run to be delegates under the auspices of not having to be in a position to declare support for a candidate before an eventual nominee (that worked well?), and TO MAKE SURE the party NOMINATED SOMEONE THAT COULD WIN (i.e., if need be someone other than who Democratic primary voters elected). So boil that down and basically control (= lack of trust in the electorate). So, do we support the fundamental democratic process or not?

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
394. No, you are still wrong
Sun Mar 11, 2018, 08:31 PM
Mar 2018

There are many reasons for super delegates including protecting from a Trump type candidate.

I ran and was elected as a national delegate at my Senate District Caucus. My kids pointed out that if party leaders like Congressman Al Green had to run there would be fewer slots for non-elected officials like myself. there are a number of good reasons for super delegates.

I support the CBC on this issue

KPN

(15,646 posts)
395. And I said already that if that's the concern
Sun Mar 11, 2018, 09:23 PM
Mar 2018

just increase the number delegates. Simple. Fixed.

Zambero

(8,964 posts)
136. The 2016 spectacle of Hillary losing the GE while winning the popular vote
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 01:50 PM
Mar 2018

should be an example of why the superdelegate entitlement should be dropped altogether. In a closely contested primary season, imagine a Democratic nominee who wins the prize to head up the ticket, but actually came up short of getting the highest share of actual votes. We lament what the electoral college has been able to do, contrary to the actual will of the voters. And indeed, but we have no control of that process as it is embedded into the Constitution. However, the Democratic Party has a lot of control in terms of how the nominee is selected. The superdelegates share aside from actual votes cast represents a rough equivalence to the electoral college. It's only a matter of time before a non-pluratlity candiate grabs the nomination and is subsequently branded as being less than legitimate. Just a thought.

24601

(3,962 posts)
161. Superdelegates undercut the argument of one person - one vote. A superdelegate votes in the primary
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 03:11 PM
Mar 2018

and is counted as just one of many. But then the superdelegate can individually negate the delegate won in that primary.

But delegates would still be won in individual state (and lower) primaries and caucuses. To have the equivalent of doing away with the EC, the nomination would rely only on the total popular votes. That's just not going to happen anytime soon.

In the 2008 primaries, counting Michigan, HRC had 286,687 more individual votes than BHO. Without Michigan, he beat her by 41,622. But if the only thing that counted was the popular vote, he would have run his campaign differently and would not have removed his name from the ballot.

 

Devil Child

(2,728 posts)
219. Why do you conflate and assume support of the Unity Reofrm Council's superdelagate proposal
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:10 PM
Mar 2018

Is support of excluding African American voters?

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
228. This thread is not about the Unity Commission proposal but a different proposal
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 05:20 PM
Mar 2018

The proposal being discussed in the OP is to abolish all super delegates and to tell the CBC that they are not important to the party.

I support the position of the CBC and I do not want to discourage African American voters by attacking members of the CBC.

MichMan

(11,932 posts)
261. Why are superdelegates required in order to have AA delegates?
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:38 PM
Mar 2018

The state Democratic parties can appoint as many African American delegates as they want up to 100%, unless the premise is that they are racist.

The CBC of course favors keeping super delegates; one reason might be because they are all super delegates themselves and enjoy the honor and prestige.


I personally would favor having more people who volunteer tirelessly in the trenches to help the party get their moment in the sun rather than elected politicians

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
290. I have not seen any grassroots support for these proposals
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:29 PM
Mar 2018

The only people that I have seen pushing this proposal are from splinter groups who supported a certain candidate. I believe that party leaders and elected officials deserve consideration.

I have helped recruit candidates for my county and it is not easy to get people to run. Elected officials deserve to receive special treatment.

I am friends with two members of the CBC and will be happy to ask them why they do not support this proposals. You may not be happy with how I frame the question but the responses from these CBC members will amuse me.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
384. Members of the CBC represent voters who are key parts of the democratic base
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 06:31 PM
Mar 2018

I care about these groups. I also know members of the CBC

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
388. elected officials are public servants,nothing else
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 06:52 PM
Mar 2018

the idea that they deserve special treatment is sickening

if the insiders at the dnc want to pick the candidate for the next presidential lose, just do it

but don't bother with pretending to run a primary

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
390. Elected officials are leaders of the party and should be respected
Sat Mar 10, 2018, 07:40 PM
Mar 2018

I know 8 or 9 super delegates and each of these super delegates are long time members of the party who have worked very had to help elect democrats.

I value the opinion of the CBC and the voters represented by the CBC in this area.

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
400. I find it offensive
Sun Mar 11, 2018, 11:20 PM
Mar 2018

That you call a person an animal. No matter what their political affiliation that is just wrong. Stop.

questionseverything
382. some animals are more equal than others...eh?


questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
404. it is a quote from ANIMAL FARM..ya know the classic used to teach us that unchecked power always
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 05:57 PM
Mar 2018

leads to corruption

i find it offense that SOME dems opinions (votes) are worth more than others

<shrugs>

Orange Free State

(611 posts)
182. We have no right to complain about the Electoral College if
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:02 PM
Mar 2018

we have superdelegates. Both are undemocratic ways of saying “We trust majority rule. But on second thought we don’t really trust it that much, so here are a group of people to whom we give a disproportionate power. Sorry for the rest of you but your vote counts for less.”

I’m glad they got rid of them. We’re a better Democratic party for it. We have to be more centrist to win general elections, the middle of that bell curve is where the big chunk of votes are. Getting rid of superdelegates does some of that, I think.

An inside person told me years ago to watch to see who had stacked lots of friends on the rules committee, because that’s who would win the nomination the next time.

Ducking quickly before bricks fly at my head.......

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
204. The proposed change is simply a proposed change
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 04:38 PM
Mar 2018

It has not been adopted and given the opposition of key demographic groups, there is a good chance that it will not be adopted.

We have county conventions on March 24 and your post has encouraged me to draft resolutions on both keeping the Superdelegate system and to adopt the National Popular Vote interstate compact. I will see if I can get on the state platform committee for the state convention.

Orange Free State

(611 posts)
264. The NPVI compact
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 06:41 PM
Mar 2018

Would effectively make it impossible for a candidate to win without a majority, so IMHO it would be a good measure. Interesting that 60% of Republicans favor it as well. I have no idea why.
I had no idea that it was pending in Pennsylvania, totally under the radar here.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
273. A friend in the Texas legislature proposed it but this did not get out of committee
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:00 PM
Mar 2018

I like this plan and I think that it is legal. I am an election law nerd and so have read up on this proposal and I believe that it would stand up if adopted.

lapucelle

(18,268 posts)
293. I wonder why BS didn't turn the DNC down
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:41 PM
Mar 2018

when they conferred super delegate status on him in 2016. It would have been a principled stand.

http://time.com/4294398/bernie-sanders-superdelegate/

Orange Free State

(611 posts)
297. Given their way of doing things
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 07:58 PM
Mar 2018

Their SDs would have been the Koch brothers, Steve Bannon, Roger Dead (formerly known as Roger Ailes) and ten random Nazis off the street. We might have had Trump even sooner.

Come to think of it, their SDs are whoever has the most $$$.

KPN

(15,646 posts)
306. That would be a good move.
Fri Mar 9, 2018, 08:45 PM
Mar 2018

We should model the democratic principles we as a party stand for. Pretty simple. If not that, bind superdelegates to vote in accordance with the majority in their respective State.

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