Jewish groups from both parties slam 'offensive' decision to have Messianic Jewish minister at Pence

[brooklynite]

Source: CNN

Jewish leaders from both political parties said Tuesday that it was "offensive" and "disappointing" to have a Messianic Jewish minister open a campaign event attended by Vice President Mike Pence on Monday.

Pence called Rabbi Loren Jacobs a "leader in the Jewish community," but many Jewish people consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity and reject the conflation of the two religions. At the rally, Jacobs prayed in the name of "Jesus the Messiah," but mainstream Judaism does not believe that Jesus was the long-awaited Jewish messiah.

The invitation of Jacobs, in the wake of the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting that took the lives of 11 people, has drawn criticism from American Jewish leaders -- both Democratic and Republican. The decision to invite Jacobs offended some Jewish people who were already wary about the Trump administration's commitment to defending Jewish interests and safety amid a rising tide of anti-Semitism.

...SNIP...

Matt Brooks, the executive director of the Republican Jewish Coalition, called it "an unfortunate and disappointing mistake."

Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/30/politics/messianic-jewish-rabbi-vice-president-pence/index.html

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. It was disrespectful and Pence should have known better.

[agingdem]

3. Pence did know better

he was making a statement...

[mr_lebowski]

5. ABSOLUTELY! NOT a mistake ... it was absolutely a slap in the face, intentional dog-whistling ...

He could've easily invited a religious leader from his own faith to join him in prayer, and nobody would have said a WORD.

He was not obliged to have a 'Rabbi' appear with him.

Shit, everyone at this point knows he'd have a damn hard time finding a REAL Rabbi to stand at his side.

This stunt was absolutely meant as a signal to the Trumpists, and a diss to the Jewish community.

You'll never convince me otherwise.

[Johnyawl]

9. It wasn't just a 'diss' to the Jewish community.

The evangelicals believe that the Bible tells them that the Jews will convert to christianity in masse BEFORE Christ returns to earth. The Jews are holding up the end times by not converting. Propping up the Messianic 'jews', giving them more publicity and stature, is their way of pushing the issue, and replacing actual Jews with the faux jews they've created. It also allows their base to be Zionists and anti-semitic at the same time. I've been telling people for a couple of decades now that eventually the evangelicals will lose patience with the jews, and turn on the American jews, unleashing their base's inherent anti-semitism.

I was raised by these people. They're crazy. And right now they're in power.

[mr_lebowski]

10. Good background, thanks ...

Ultimately though it sounds like you're essentially arguing 'diss' is not a harsh-enough term ... to that I say ... you've made that case well.

Fair enough.

[Kali]

22. this

^ they are obvious and disgusting

[efhmc]

6. 100% sure that he does know that this is not Judaism. But as with all of these fake Christians,

Pence only see other religions as a misguided offshoot of his faith or a heathen abomination.

[ck4829]

2. K&R

[still_one]

4. They keep referring to this so-called "rabbi" as Jewish. He isn't Jewish, and with CNN wording this

as "many Jewish people consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity", how about 99.99999999%

They are wording it as though it is a debatable point. IT ISN'T

[mr_lebowski]

8. Can people be considered 'ethnically' Jewish? I always thought there's more to it than just

the religious aspect.

Honest question, am I mistaken?

I ask because my best friend since 1976, a Mr. Blumberg, grew up going to Temple, had his Bar Mitzvah, both parents grew up in the Faith, presumably they can trace roots back to Israel ... the whole 9 yards.

But now, he's 100% atheist, like me.

So is he no longer "Jewish"?

I realize this "Rabbi" is NOT a practitioner of Judaism, not debating that point, to be clear

[still_one]

12. It is an ethnic and religious group. One can trace one's ancestory to see if they have Jewish roots

i.e. Ashkenazi Jews, but the religious aspect is distinct and seperate, as your friend has choosen. People can choose the religious dogma they wish to follow or not.

The Jewish religion does not accept Jesus as the messiah, and those trying to characterize it as such are using it as a mechanism to proselytize

[MurrayDelph]

13. My mother and I would discuss this

Judaism (in my opinion) is both a culture and a belief. It's possible to be the former without the latter (Even though the opposite may not be true).

It's also possible to be brought up to be both as end up neither. One only has to look to Stephen Miller (though I personally don't recommend doing so after eating).

Personally, I consider myself a secular Jew. I'm Jewish-ish. Since the last of my family passed away, I have only been in temple once, to attend a friend's kid's Bat Mitzvah.*

The closest analogy I can think of, and I apologize to those I may offend with this analogy, is that Jews for Jesus is the Jewish equivalent of blackface, where one is mocking others while pretending to honor them.






* I currently live in a part of Oregon that's 100 miles away from the nearest temple (which may be why my attempt to open a Jewish-style deli failed), and all this crap with Trump, Pence, and Squirrel Hill make me want to go to shul this weekend.

[still_one]

17. I essentially agree with you characterization that it is a culture and a belief, though I worded it

slightly differently. One can trance ones ancestor's Jewish roots, but that is distinct from the religion

As for your characterization of "Jews for Jesus", that is simply a group using it as a mechanism to proselytize





I

[MurrayDelph]

19. I started my answer before yours

But because I am using a tablet, your better answer showed up first.

And Ancestry DNA lists me as 97% Eastern European Jew (No surprises there).

[Mosby]

31. Yes they can

Judaism has ethnic and cultural components as well as religious. We are a tribe. If your birth mother is Jewish but you don't practice you're still considered Jewish, but kind of proto. Others like adoptees and converts who practice are Jewish.

Because the religion focuses on actions, not thoughts so much, many Jews think that atheists can be practicing Jews.

[Igel]

24. Ever been around a Messianic congregation?

Perhaps there for their Purim celebrations? Hannukah? Maybe at their seder? Hey, when they unroll the Torah at the end of the reading cycle and march it around (Simcha Torah)?

Perhaps a bar mitzvah? Having the reader of a parasha be the birthday boy?

Or when they open their ark to remove the Torah scrolls, the ner tamid above the opening, and put on the crown and other bits before the torah procession?

The recitation in Hebrew, not to mention the strong preference for even non-Jews in the congregation to take up shabbat dinner, with the kiddush and lighting of the candles, services marked by the Aaronic blessing, and then havdalah at sundown?

Now, when's the last time you saw Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, or any Christian denomination of any size do these things or deck out their synagogues that way?

Because, I have to assume, none of those things are Jewish and any Jew caught in the very presence of any of those uber goy thing would be immediately viewed as apostate.

Jewish is a religion, and in the religion there are many features. The defining one currently seems to be whether there's a messiah, but that wasn't true for a few generations--until there was enough anti-Semitism to close ranks and keep those nasty coverts out of the synagogues (because the converts were Xian but still fairly Torah-observant in the Levant). But it's also cultural and ethnic.

Messianic Judaism hasn't been codified. The congregation I went to for a while (at my wife's request) was in many respects more Jewish-centered, in that even the gentiles were expected to understand that the "wild branch" that was the gentile church was to become part of Israel, in a very real sense. Others around where I live are much more baptist-Christian (although that depends on the part of the country you're in) and de-emphasize Jewish traditions. Branding all Messianic congregations as "non-Jewish" and therefore "not really Jews" is like saying an evangelical Latino "isn't really Latino" because Latinos are Catholic (although atheist is okay--it's better to deny G-d than it is to accept the messiah, apparently.)

[still_one]

25. Messianic "Jews" are Christians. I don't care how many Jewish practices or rituals they observe.

The major Jewish denominations do NOT recognize Messianic "Jews" as a form of Judaism.

Anyone who accept Jesus as the Messiah is Christian.

Judaism is both an ethnic and religious group. A person can become a Jew by either being born by a Jewish mother, or through conversion.

One can trace if they have ancestral Jewish roots through DNA, such as Ashkenazi Jews. The religious aspect is distinct from that.

You cannot change you ancestral roots, but you can change your religion.

I don't know if you are Jewish are not, but Messanic Jews are not considerd Jewish is because they believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and this "Messanic Rabbi" certainly is not considered a major leader in the Jewish community.


The very fact that Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah was one of the prime reasons for their persecution by Christians throughout history.

The reason the major Jewish denominations do not accept Messanic Jews as Jewish is their belief that Jesus is the Messiah, it is that simple, and having this representative preside over the murder of Jews in that congregation is an insult to their Jewish belief. It is not unlike some Mormans performing baptisms on Holocaust victims.

You want to try and convince the 99% of the 14 million Jews in the world today that "Messanic Jews" who believe Jesus is the Messiah, be my guest, it isn't going to fly

[Mosby]

28. I noticed that as well

He's not a rabbi and no Jewish people think he is. Cnn or whoever should not be referring to him using that appelation.

I can't think of any vp doing such a scummy, disrespectful thing as pence did with his fake Jew, innocent Jewish worshippers were murdered and he decided that this was a great time to trot out a fake rabbi. I'm stunned.

[still_one]

29. Exactly.

[barbtries]

7. i doubt if it was an accident.

what can you expect when there are nazis in the WH.

that's disgusting.

[Paladin]

11. Pence, pouring salt in a deep, hurtful wound.

Whatever pretenses of decency Pence ever had have been erased by his non-stop blowjobbing of trump.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

14. When I was a kid, I was in a synagogue youth group called

Ncsy or the National Council of Synagogue Youth.

During a retreat to Baltimore, the Jews for Jesus were having a convention, and local Orthodox rabbis as well as others were protesting in front and telling people not to go in the convention center as it wasn't Judaism that was being taught inside.

As a Jew, Jews for Jesus are offensive. It is the antithesis of what Judaism is about.

[MosheFeingold]

32. Well

I think the word you are looking for is "heretical".

They might be Jewish (or not, just depends). But their beliefs are Nazarene.

[Gothmog]

15. The use of this fake rabbi is very offensive

[KPN]

16. Fake Leaders. Fake President. Fake VP. Fake Christians. Fake Human Beings!

Let's get real! GOTV!

Please join me and the tens of thousands, if not hundreds or a million others, in helping to GOTV in any way you can so that we may rid our country and the world of this scourge!

[leftynyc]

20. Uh - no

Not only is bibi secular (as are most Israeli's), messianic "Jews" are not Jews, they're Christians as they believe in the divinity of Christ. Jews don't believe in the Christian version end times nonsense (which is part of the new testament, not the bible). I don't know ANY Jews that wouldn't be offended by them and that most includes Israeli Jews like bibi (who I loathe). If you wish to know more about what Jews think about "end times", you can read it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

[marybourg]

21. Where did you ever get such a bizarre idea?

Jews aren’t “messianic”, even Jews you hate. Only Christians believe Christ was the Messiah. That’s the definition of “Christian”; you believe in Christ- you’re a Christian. It’s absolutely not a form of Judiasim.

[still_one]

30. Oh, so that's where it came from

[marble falls]

23. This administration has turned tone deafness into an art. Hell with them bums.

[keithbvadu2]

26. Pence's fake Rabbi, even from Messianic Jews

Pence's fake Rabbi, even from Messianic Jews

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-story-about-the-rabbi-pence-appeared-gets-little-worse

Loren Jacobs, who was invited onstage by Vice President Mike Pence to speak at a rally in Michigan for a GOP congressional candidate, was defrocked 15 years ago, according to a spokeswoman for the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

[Hassler]

27. Pence is predictable. What was the excuse for Lena Epstein, who's Jewish?