University of Alabama police officer kills naked student

[Judi Lynn]

Source: AGI Italy

University of Alabama police officer kills naked student
09:07 07 OTT 2012

(AGI) Mobile, Alabama - A campus police officer at the University of South Alabama on Saturday shot and killed a naked freshman who repeatedly threatened him. Fox news said the officer had heard loud noises from one apartment and had gone to check. He soon found the student, completely naked and in a fighting stance. Gilbert Thomas Collar, 18, died from a single bullet wound to the chest.


Read more: http://www.agi.it/english-version/world/elenco-notizie/201210070907-cro-ren1014-university_of_alabama_police_officer_kills_naked_student

[Judi Lynn]

1. University of South Alabama officer shoots 18-year-old Wetumpka graduate Gilbert Collar to death

University of South Alabama officer shoots 18-year-old Wetumpka graduate Gilbert Collar to death
8:03 PM, Oct. 6, 2012 |

A police officer at the University of South Alabama shot and killed 18-year-old student Gilbert Thomas Collar, who the university said in a release was acting erratically and repeatedly charged at the officer, early Saturday morning.

Collar, who graduated this year from Wetumpka High School, was a freshman at the university this fall. News of his death spread through his hometown Saturday with Wetumpka High School principal Cindy Veazey struggling to find the right words to describe the former student.

“He was very well liked,” Veazey said. “He had a very charismatic smile.”

Collar was a standout on the wrestling team for six years, with coach Jeff Glass calling him a “remarkable young man.”

More:
http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20121006/NEWS/310060052/University-South-Alabama-officer-shoots-18-year-old-Wetumpka-graduate-Gilbert-Collar-death

[dixiegrrrrl]

16. "Collar fell to the ground, but managed to get up and continue to challenge

the policeman after being shot, before collapsing and dying."
http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20121006/NEWS/310060052/University-South-Alabama-officer-shoots-18-year-old-Wetumpka-graduate-Gilbert-Collar-death

does sound as if he was on bath salts.

He was described as being muscular and a member of wrestling team.

[Voice for Peace]

24. yes, my first thought.

my daughter was recently attacked by someone half her
size under the influence of those drugs. the person managed
to bite part of my daughter's lip off before she was able to
get away and call police. the girl was apprehended running
around naked knocking on people's doors. She bit the
officer who apprehended her.

[freshwest]

91. Sorry to hear about that happening to your daughter. Bath salts sound like instant insanity.

[Voice for Peace]

98. Many kids take it believing it's (more or less) LSD

I'd like to see much more information getting out there.

When I was young I would take almost anything my
friends gave to me.. unless I knew, from a reputable
source, that it was deadly. Kids are desperate to get
high, to have fun, to escape, and who can blame them?

But this stuff too often leads to such tragedies. In my kid's
case, an otherwise sweet young girl may end up in jail.
She might have been shot. She might have ripped off
more of my daughter's face. It's a psychosis & hallucination-
inducing drug. People do become super strong, super-
crazy, and very dangerous. Lives are lost. If you know
anyone with kids in that age range, 10-30, educate them.

[freshwest]

102. I looked this up a while back when the incident in Florida happened, so pass it on:

Bath salts (drug)



Bath salts[1][2] is the informal "street name" for a family of designer drugs often containing substituted cathinones, which have effects similar to amphetamine and cocaine.[3][4][5] The white crystals resemble legal bathing products like epsom salts, and are called bath salts with the packaging often stating "not for human consumption" in an attempt to avoid the prohibition of drugs,[3] but chemically have nothing to do with actual bath salts...

Bath salts can be swallowed, snorted, smoked, or injected.[13] Swallowing and snorting are the most common routes of administration.[5] Bath salts are active at doses of between 3 mg and 5 mg, with the average dose being between 5 mg and 20 mg.[14] The risk of overdose is high, however, since the packets often contain 500 mg and suggest users use 50 mg...[15]

Users of bath salts have reported experiencing symptoms including headache, heart palpitations, nausea, and cold fingers.[16] Hallucinations, paranoia, and panic attacks have also been reported,[16] and news media have reported associations with violent behavior,[17] heart attack, kidney failure, liver failure, suicide, and an increased tolerance for pain...[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_salts_%28drug%29

[Ash_F]

114. I am very sorry to hear. Hope she is recovering ok. /nt

[Voice for Peace]

118. thank you, she's good.

[MADem]

34. Very odd situation. It happened AT the police station--just outside

This is from the school: http://www.southalabama.edu/shtml/crimealert.pdf

At 1:23 a.m., on Saturday, Oct. 6, University of South Alabama Police
responded to a loud banging noise on the west side window of the police
station. When an officer exited the station to investigate, he was
confronted by a muscular, nude man who was acting erratically. The man
repeatedly rushed and verbally challenged the officer in a fighting stance.
The officer with weapon drawn ordered the individual to halt. The officer
retreated numerous times in an attempt to calm the situation. The
individual continued to press toward the officer in a threatening manner.
The assailant kneeled for a moment, and then he rose again, rushing and
chasing the officer, who continued to retreat away from the building. When
the individual continued to rush toward the officer in a threatening manner
and ignored the officer’s repeated commands to stop, the officer fired one
shot with his police sidearm, which struck the chest of the assailant. The
individual fell to the ground, but he got up once more and continued to
challenge the officer further before collapsing and expiring.
The deceased has been identified as Gilbert Thomas Collar...

Suicide by cop? I know someone who did that --a very disturbed fellow with whom I worked. I'd forgotten about that...happened over twenty years ago!

If he left a note we will know more...

[SILVER__FOX52]

67. Any way you cut it............

the Cop is a coward !!!

[MADem]

69. I don't think your assertion is supported by the facts at hand.

The cop could very well be just a regular schmuck who enjoys the "protect and serve" gig, who has a family, who is a nice person.

You can't come to any determination about the police officer's character with the information provided to this point.

[wtmusic]

74. Agree.

It's entirely conceivable that the cop fired as a last resort.

Get in a wrestling match with a muscular student, naked or not, and suddenly he's armed and you're not.

[dixiegrrrrl]

77. Indeed, I do agree.

From what I read, the policeman had retreated from several charges but the guy just kept on charging.
Wrestling for the gun would NOT be a good scenario.

[Voice for Peace]

99. Is it too hard for the cop to shoot his feet, or something non-lethal?

I think they're trained to aim mid-body but in fact I know
about zero on the subject, have often wondered in cases
like this.. can't you just disable him?

[Ash_F]

116. Attempting to shoot anyone anywhere is a lethal act.

Shooting someone in the leg could kill them in minutes if it hits them in the femoral artery.

There are several other reasons against shooting to "wound".

1)An officer might attempt to shoot someone in the leg and end up hitting them in the chest or head anyway. If that happened in a situation where lethal force was not justified, there would be serious problems.

2)Shooting someone in the leg could lead to permanent disability. If that happened in a situation where it was deemed not serious enough to shoot to kill, then there could be reasonable argument that is was not serious enough to shoot at all.

3)The officer could easily miss, compared to aiming for the body, and now be dealing with an assailant that knows they've been shot at, which makes them even more dangerous.

Therefore, an officer should never attempt to use a firearm in a less-than-lethal manner. They are not designed for that purpose.

Tazers, pepper spray, batons and watercannons, however, are designed for less than lethal purposes. My question is why were they not employed here? It's like you only ever hear about them using those on protesters and elderly women.

[Voice for Peace]

121. thanks very much

I can't judge the situation not having been there, but I'm so
sorry for the boy and his family, that the cop didn't have a
tazer in his hand instead of a gun.

[Eleanors38]

79. Anyway you cut one, it still stinks.nt

[Ironblood]

33. Bein' nekkid ...

"Bein' nekkid jist haint natchrill"

[williesgirl]

2. It's hard to believe the officer couldn't have found a better way to subdue him. Even a taser. Why

shoot the kid? IMO, this is so wrong.

[longship]

3. What the fuck did he threaten with if he was naked?

Did he have a weapon? I mean other than his body?

How can anybody justify this?

I am appalled.

[psychopomp]

5. The officer's gun

Should he manage to wrest the weapon in a struggle in the confined space of the dorm there is a chance the officer's weapon could be used against him, whether by accidental discharge or with intent.

[cosmicone]

9. Oh Brother

Cop apologists abound.

Pretty soon there will be narratives that the kid could have been on drugs and thus capable of killing a whole platoon with bare hands.

Give me a break. The police have become arrogant, sadistic, narcissistic and have power gone to their head ever since Patriot Act gave them near unlimited powers.

[dotymed]

54. I agree totally. This kid could have been on drugs.

The "legal" ones seem to be much worse than the illegal ones, but still, killing this kid was uncalled for. Cops, especially campus cops, usually have non-lethal weapons at their disposal. These militaristic, fascist tactics must be stopped. The "apologist" claims that this was in a dorm setting, it was outside. This badge toting thug could have easily used non-lethal force to subdue this kid who obviously had issues. This was pure cowardice on the cops part. In the military they are taught to kill or be killed, police are supposed to be taught to protect and serve. Obviously, (it is symptomatic of our society) the kill or be killed theory has become SOP for todays cops.
It seems we are a few degrees away from Nazi Germany. That is not an anti-semitic remark. IMO, in our emerging Nazi-like society, semantics does not play a role (unless you happen to be Muslim). America has lost it's way...

[Eleanors38]

84. No rebuttal, eh? Just blow-it-out slur. cool. nt

[exboyfil]

10. Additionally if he gets the gun and shoots

the officer, you now have an allegedly crazed armed student on campus.

Without being there you cannot be certain. While he is relatively small (reported 5'7" and 135#) he would be very strong and able to take on someone much larger than himself.

[Buzz Clik]

21. How about a shot to the leg?

If this cop is so incredibly incompetent at his job that he cannot figure out how to handle the situation without his firearm, he can find a way to use non-lethal force.

These apologies are total bullshit.

[Frank Cannon]

28. A shot to the leg is just as dangerous and potentially fatal...

as a shot anywhere else, plus the added risk of missing and then ending up with an errant bullet headed who knows where. Decades of cop shows and westerns have tried to make it seem different, but make no mistake about it: you can easily die from a bullet to the leg. You got some mighty big arteries going through those gams.

Still doesn't explain why the cop couldn't have tried a Taser or even pepper spray first.

[Buzz Clik]

30. My point was the use of non-lethal force. We seem to agree.

It seems some here feel that cops with guns should use them at the slightest provocation -- if that is unavoidable, then let's have them NOT shoot to kill.

[Eleanors38]

82. Too much T.V. Western viewing for you. Cut back.nt

[shanti]

88. i asked that question on a BB one time

about a mentally ill individual, at quite a distance from the cop, being shot and killed. the respondent said that shooting to wound was not acceptable. when they pull that gun out of the holster, it's to KILL.

[wtmusic]

94. There are good reasons why it's not acceptable.

Cops are trained to aim for the "center of mass" (chest/torso), because these kinds of situations are evolving rapidly, and the assailant is never standing still. It's the best chance of actually hitting him/her.

In this scenario it's very likely the cop could miss and there could be innocent bystanders hit by direct fire or ricochets - only compounding a tragedy.

Whether the cop is justified in shooting at all is another matter.

[Voice for Peace]

100. thanks, that answers my question (above, somewhere in the thread)

[wtmusic]

103. The anti-taser crowd is remarkably absent from this thread

although this is the exact kind of situation where this idiot would still be alive (and probably hungover, and probably remorseful) this morning - if the cop had a taser and used it instead.

[Confusious]

106. I've been shot in the leg

I was lucky. Outside of the leg.

Inside of the leg, and in a minute your dead, because that's where an artery travels.

[Buzz Clik]

119. But you lived.

Our naked friend didn't make it.

[Confusious]

122. Yea luckily the shooter was a bad shot

One inch to the right, and I would have been dead.

Seriously, I'm no fan of guns, more ambivalent, but shoot to disable takes a crack shot, which only maybe 10% of competition shooters can do.

[Buzz Clik]

134. So you shoot to kill instead?

I don't understand the argument.

[Confusious]

135. How to put this?

Last edited Mon Oct 8, 2012, 10:44 AM - Edit history (1)

There is no such thing as shoot to wound or disable.

There is only shoot to kill.

Being wounded by a gun is always an accident.

It's inherit in the gun and the human body.

The gun was made to kill, and that's what it does. You want shoot to wound or disable, look for a different weapon.

[Buzz Clik]

142. Now we're on the same page.

[4th law of robotics]

109. What if he'd shot out a chandelier or rope holding up a well placed bag of sand

and had incapacitated the guy that way?

Why didn't he even try that first?

[Buzz Clik]

120. That's why I love DU -- no thought required.

This place runs on emotion. And everybody thinks they're a fucking comedian.

[4th law of robotics]

137. Your notion of going for a leg shot was a joke

I just went with it.

[Buzz Clik]

141. No, you just think you're the smartest person in the room, and went with it.

You missed it on multiple fronts. In the first place, you didn't even understand my point, which had little if anything to do with shooting someone in the leg.

But I won't get in your way -- be totally impressed with yourself. A fan club of one.

[4th law of robotics]

143. Well I am the smartest person in this room currently

as I am alone at the moment. . .

In the first place, you didn't even understand my point, which had little if anything to do with shooting someone in the leg.

Clearly I am not as smart and nuanced as you. I took "How about a shot to the leg?" to refer to shooting someone, in the leg.
Apparently it has a thousand different layers of subtext, everyone one of which you are far too important and smart to explain.

[wtmusic]

123. Oh come on...it was outdoors.

He needed a bag of marbles, or a banana peel.

[JackRiddler]

129. And what if he gets his hands on a nuclear weapon?!

[Lars77]

14. So maybe campus police should'nt bring guns to a dorm

[tabasco]

18. Chirp chirp

crickets

[MADem]

42. You should wait a bit before declaring "crickets."

The incident didn't happen at a dorm.

[tabasco]

113. No.

[MADem]

124. Fine, don't. Double down, too--it reflects on you. nt

[snooper2]

138. Yes

[Buzz Clik]

22. At least cops with incredibly poor judgment.

This cop needs to go.

[rawtribe]

83. This murder needs to goto Jail......

N/T

[MADem]

41. They weren't AT the dorm. The kid went TO the POLICE STATION, naked, and created a disturbance. nt

[sammytko]

45. I bet somebody dropped him off there.

[MADem]

46. Do you think this was a "college prank" gone horribly wrong? nt

[Voice for Peace]

101. but probably still on-campus

campus police station -- could have wandered there?

[MADem]

125. Yes. The campus is massive. Huge student body, bigger than some towns.

Many, many buildings. There's a compound of apartments and dorms near the police station.

It's not a little podunky place, despite the fact that it's in southern Alabama--it's a community unto itself.

[Proletariatprincess]

52. Maybe campus police shouldn't carry guns at all!

I am so tired of trigger happy cowardly cops. Let's disarm them a little at a time...starting with campus police. If they can't do the job with out deadly force then let them look for another job. Civil authority shouldn't depend on the use of a deadly weapon.
Now I will sit back and wait for the cops and cop lovers to attack me as being niave and soft on criminals....
3...2....1....

[MADem]

65. That's a pretty huge campus, I think they have a large student body.

I'm guessing the population of that place is larger than many small towns, where police carry weapons.

Remember VA Tech?

It's not like Alabama is heavy on the gun control; I don't think your proposal would have much chance of flying in that state. That's not an "attack," it's simply an observation.

[Proletariatprincess]

111. You are right, of course.

There isn't a chance in hell that any police force public or private would ever give up their lethal weapons in the USA. They will not give up thier tazers either once they are issued. We are fighting a losing battle in San Francisco on issuing tazers. The cops want them. We cite the abuses and the fatalities. Makes no difference. What the cops want they will get eventually and no matter how they are abused or mishandled, they will never be taken back. Same with guns.

[MADem]

126. The record on tazers (heart attacks, deaths) hasn't really been touted.

They are just viewed as "nonlethal" but they are often used as "compliance tools." The police like them because they will encourage compliance, and they reduce the risk of the police injuring themselves trying to subdue a subject. Tazers obviate the need for rank-n-file police to be terribly fit or have to get down in the weeds, which is why the unions support them. They reduce the number of workman's comp claims for twisted this or sprained that. For this reason, management likes them, too.

I agree that they have great potential for abuse. I like them better than the sound wave things they are experimenting with, that make people go nutso and scramble their brains, but I would really love it if they could come up with a nice net they could shoot at people that would scoop them up, like we see in the cartoons. One day...!

[tblue37]

56. He was outside the police station--

not in a dorm room.

[Occulus]

63. Should he, a chance, could be

Three too many qualifiers to justify shooting someone to death.

[marshall]

97. What about his teeth?

Don't those bath salts cause people to go into zombie mode and start muching on faces?

[Lightbulb_on]

136. Fun Fact... The Florida face eater was found to have only marijuana in his system

and no bath salts.

Dude was just crazy apparently.

[TheMadMonk]

131. His wrestler's physique. What do we know of the cop's size?

A skinny little weed? A lardarse? Either would put the cop at a serious disadvantage in a grapple.

If you are formally trained in any fighting style, you are automatically deemed to be armed in the eyes of the law, particuarly if you attempt to put your learning into practice as an agressor. Cop doesn't have any time to check your credentials and determine if you're a serious threat, a posturing idiot, or anthing else.

Was the cop carrying a tazer to use?

It might not be entirely justifiable, but given the circumstances as narated, it's probably excusable. A cop can only back up so far before he has to start thinking about the safety of members of the public, or even accomplices actively coming up from behind.

No matter how sad or tragic the assailant's back story might be, the cop doesn't have it. He's got someone trying to physically grapple him and very serious about it, and just maybe somewhere in the back of his mind is a freeway on-ramp in Florida.

[Judi Lynn]

4. Campus officer kills naked freshman at University of South Alabama

Campus officer kills naked freshman at University of South Alabama
By Melissa Gray, CNN
updated 1:43 AM EDT, Sun October 7, 2012

(CNN) -- Authorities are investigating why a University of South Alabama officer fatally shot an 18-year-old freshman who they say was naked and acting erratically outside the campus police station early Saturday.

With few details of the shooting, the student's mother and one of his friends said they could not understand how a six-year varsity wrestler and good-natured teenager could have died under such strange and sad circumstances.

According to a statement from the school, the campus police officer heard a loud banging noise on a window at the station at 1:23 a.m. CT (2:23 a.m. ET) Saturday. When he left the station to investigate, the school said, "he was confronted by a muscular, nude man who was acting erratically."

The man, later identified as Gilbert Thomas Collar, of Wetumpka, Alabama, repeatedly rushed and verbally challenged the officer in a fighting stance, the school said.

More:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/07/justice/alabama-student-killed/index.html

[center]~~~~~[/center]
Tragedy as naked college freshman, 18, shot dead by campus police after he 'charged at officer'
By James Nye
PUBLISHED:17:47 EST, 6 October 2012| UPDATED: 18:40 EST, 6 October 2012

In a tragic and bizarre incident a University of Alabama student who was naked has been fatally shot after charging a campus police officer early on Saturday morning.

University officials said that the confrontation occurred after the officer went outside the police station to investigate a banging noise that was coming from his office window.

Confronted with 18-year-old Gilbert Thomas Collar who was acting erratically and wearing no clothes, the officer shot the student once in the chest after he repeatedly charged.

Authorities said that the officer attempted to retreat several times in an attempt to defuse the situation but that the officer was left with no choice but to shoot when Collar made one final charge.

Collar, who had only recently enrolled at the University of South Alabama was shot at 1.30 a.m. on Saturday moening outside the USA Police Department on Stadium Drive

More:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213978/Tragedy-naked-college-freshman-18-shot-dead-campus-police-charged-officer.html#ixzz28bAnV84T

[center][/center]

[freshwest]

93. Broken hearts.

[truthisfreedom]

6. Moment of silence.

We may never know. But if we think we do, we may never be the same.

[Exultant Democracy]

7. Piss poor outcome, if a cop can't deal with a naked unarmed teenager without killing him

well he just shouldn't be a cop.

[Hestia]

8. Could it be those "bath salts" type of drugs? I was reading about them the other day and the first

thing you want to do is take off your clothes due to overheating. Then you get paranoid as hell and hallucinate and think people are out to kill you. I happened to be reading an article about all the deaths attributed to these drugs and those were the first signs that a person is on those drugs. Horrible way to die. RIP.

[silvershadow]

13. I don't know, but I say good call. Thanks for the reminder. I only became aware of such things

when the dude when tripped in Miami. Should maybe be looked at. Wonder what kind of training law enforcement gets on this kind of stuff these days?

[Frank Cannon]

29. Why the fuck do people even want to try those drugs?

A drug that makes you tear off your clothes, run berzerk, and do things like try to chew someone else's face off? For fuck's sake, are kicks so hard to find that all that sounds like a fun thing to do?

[bluedigger]

147. Because 7-11 piss tests, so you can't smoke weed and have a part-time job.

[MADem]

35. Or "Suicide by cop?" Someone determined to die, but they want the police to do it?

I knew someone who did this, and we know it's what he intended because he left a note.

I always felt sorry for the cop. That's got to fuck someone up, being an instrument of their wish to die.

[GulleyJimson]

11. Campus cops with guns....

Like allowing concealed weapons in bars.

STUPID.

Campus cops with too much power and no bloody sense.

[Buzz Clik]

23. Hey! If those protesters had disarmed that cop of his pepper spray, god knows!

The cop should have sprayed them and immediately shot and killed them.

It was the only way.

[GulleyJimson]

12. I keep looking for stuff after I found it.

Authorities said that the officer attempted to retreat several times in an attempt to defuse the situation but that the officer was left with no choice but to shoot when Collar made one final charge.

Why not just let him go after his final charge?

[crim son]

15. Yeah, no kidding.

Or call for help. Or anything other than shoot the poor kid.

[Buzz Clik]

25. No kidding! This kid's state was 100% the result of the cop's presence.

If the cop felt compelled to subdue this kid, NON-LETHAL FORCE!!!

More and more cops using inappropriate force for the situation.

[MADem]

47. What kind of non-lethal force should the police have used, do you think?

FWIW, the student was banging on a window of the police station--that is what started this mess.

It looks like the police department is located near student housing, per this map of the place. http://www.southalabama.edu/usamaps/campusmap.pdf

[Buzz Clik]

55. So the kid initially went to them -- an entire building filled with cops?

And he ended up dead?

Anyone taking the side of the cops in this ...

[MADem]

59. I don't think it is at all productive to take any "side."

I think most people are just trying to figure out the "Why?" of all this. After all, none of us were standing by that police station window when that naked kid wandered up to it and started banging away at it. None of us were there in the wee, small hours of the morning when the confrontations occurred, either.

I rather doubt that a guy or gal serving as a "Campus Cop" in Southern Alabama goes to work each night loaded for bear, ready to shoot the "paying customers" on the campus who make their job both possible and necessary. They are there to protect the students from enemies without and preserve a modicum of order on the campus.

Some people are wondering if the kid was on bath salts or some other drug, others wonder if he was undergoing a psychotic break, I'm wondering if he made a decision to end his life and decided that it would be easier to make a cop do the dirty work for him?

There's no "side" when someone ends up dead. It's a tragedy for the family of the dead person, and it's a tragedy for the police officer who fired one single bullet.

Time will reveal more, I'm thinking. If the campus was wired for public video, that system is likely to have captured the entire incident--the police station, where the incident happened, is close to the residential halls.

[wordpix]

144. maybe the kid was looking for help so went to the police station

Shooting the kid instead of asking for reinforcements was a terrible idea

[caraher]

32. It was final only because he shot him

There's no indication that the guy had stopped BEFORE being shot.

That said, it seems ridiculous that an officer can't find non-lethal means to restrain/calm/render harmless a completely unarmed man.

And as others have said, if lethal force was required because the kid *might* have wrestled the gun away, then the officers shouldn't be carrying guns (creating the potentially fatal situation in the first place).

[MADem]

44. If police started carrying tranquilizer guns, people would have a shitfit.

I think this is one of those "no win" scenarios. Maybe they'll come up with a giant net that they can throw at suspects/fire at them with a gun, like the Roman gladiators used to use?

If it's not bath salts, it's Suicide By Cop.

[trof]

17. VERY misleading headline. Please edit.

University of SOUTH Alabama.
No connection at all to U. of Alabama.
Thank you.

[MADem]

48. Well, some connection--aren't they all part of the state school system?

Wouldn't credits from one readily transfer to the other?

Or is there not even a funding relationship?

UMass in Amherst has a very different vibe from UMass Boston or UMass Lowell, but they're all part of the same system.

[Ursus Rex]

57. No, The University of Alabama System does not include U. of South Alabama

No institutional connection. As an Alabama grad, and a native of Mobile, they're worlds apart (geographically and culturally). The USA (yeah) was founded out of some loose ends from UA in 1963, but is a completely separate entity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Alabama_System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_South_Alabama

Sorry if this comes across as pedantic or petty nattering, but it matters to those of us who went to the Capstone (esp if you're from a long line of graduates)

[MADem]

61. USA looks rather "up and coming," as institutions go.

Vibrant and expanding, relatively new, ten colleges, collaboration with Auburn in one instance--with very good-looking facilities and a large campus, doctoral programs and even a hospital. And while they seem to like sports, it's clear they aren't living and dying by them, based on their record.

Pity this had to happen to them. It will affect their reputation, either momentarily or for a bit of a while, depending on what is discovered about the cause of this death.

If the kid was using drugs, people will regard the school as a "druggie den." If the student was just pranking and not crazed at all, it will gain a reputation as having a ham handed security force. If the kid had mental health issues, it might suffer the VA tech fate, where the school comes off as "too large" and "uncaring" because for months on end, no one paid any mind to an obviously crazed and violent student who ended up murdering seventeen classmates for no good reason.

Time will tell. There's often "more" that comes out in the weeks after an incident such as this.

[trof]

133. U. of A. has branches in Montgomery, Birmingham, and Huntsville.

Of course the main campus is in Tuscaloosa.
There is no branch in Mobile.
The University of SOUTH Alabama is a stand alone separate institution.
No connection to the University of Alabama.
There is also a University of NORTH Alabama.

The school in Tuscaloosa and the one in Mobile have about the same connection as Boston College and Boston University.

[greiner3]

19. So the cop;

Couldn't use the 'plant a concealed weapon' on the guy.

[tabasco]

20. Low-esteem cowards are attracted to law enforcement

Another glaring example.

If the coward cop hadn't shown up, no one would be dead.

[1monster]

26. Any witnesses? Or is this all, "he said, he dead?" nt

[MADem]

37. If there were cameras anywhere, I'd say cameras right outside the police station are as

likely as any--and this happened, not in a dorm, but right outside the police station. The student went to the police station and initiated the confrontation by causing a commotion.

I can't help but wonder if he wanted a police officer to do the deed--suicide by cop.

It happens.


http://www.southalabama.edu/shtml/crimealert.pdf

[jsr]

27. He weighed 135 pounds

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/07/justice/alabama-student-killed/index.html

[Devil_Buddy]

31. Nice one, Darwin

Today's lesson: don't threatened an armed police officer if you aren't wearing so much as a loin cloth. LOL

[davidthegnome]

36. Bath Salts? A shot of Adrenaline? A psychotic break?

It would be good to have more details about the case. I'm trying to picture what I would do, personally, if a naked 18 year old man charged me. Hmm... first thing that comes to mind is, "frigging run, man." Of course, I don't have a taser, or a gun, or even so much as pepper spray. What would I have done if I did have them? Probably tried the taser, then tried to subdue the kid with rope, or whatever was available, I suppose. It's easy to sit around wondering what I might have done, but I wasn't in that position.

Hmm... 135 pounds, described as muscular, a wrestler.. so athletic, physically competent, but not very big. The taser and rope/ties/phone cord/whatever method probably would have worked. Unless the young man was so hyped up on drugs that he wouldn't feel the pain and also had crazy strength. I've heard stories of people on bath salts being tased, even shot in the leg and not even flinching. I don't know how accurate they are, whether someone jumped up on that stuff really could shrug it off.

Still... I would hope that in such a scenario, the use of deadly force would come only as a last resort. What tools did the officer have available? How big was he? Was he alone without anyone else being ready and/or willing to lend a hand?

It's sad that such a young student lost his life over this... and it leads me to wonder what the average police officer would have done in such a situation. If the Officer in this story is any indication of average... well, it's kind of scary.

[MADem]

39. And the kid went TO the police station and caused the naked ruckus.

This wasn't a bunch of "dorm hijinks," this was a case where the student went to the police department and made noise to attract the attention of authorities.

[LisaL]

80. Since police officers are there to protect the public, they don't have the luxury

of running away from someone.

[heaven05]

38. ??

he needed help, not a bullet

[slackmaster]

40. Play Stupid Games

Win Stupid Prizes!

[valerief]

43. He killed him so he wouldn't hurt himself? Whatever happened to shooting limbs first? nt

[MADem]

49. "Shooting limbs first" is not, nor has it ever been, a police protocol. It's always been shoot to

kill.

The whole idea is, from what I understand (maybe someone with police background can amplify, here) if they take out the weapon, they need to have already made the decision that they are willing to use it with full lethal force.

[byeya]

51. You're right. If you have cause to pull out your handgun, you shoot to body mass. There is also a

protocol that calls for escalating up to shooting to kill beginning with talking and ordering; hands on takedowns if the subject is not too much bigger; leading to non lethal weapons like a baton and pepper spray BEFORE you use deadly force.
Assuming what the above posts have said are true, the officer could have called for backup and kept the subject in his room. If the subject charged the officer, the cop could have resorted to a non lethal attack to subdue the subject before resorting to deadly force.

[tblue37]

60. The subject was NOT in his room He was outside the police station.

Last edited Sun Oct 7, 2012, 02:53 PM - Edit history (1)

I wonder why the officer could not simply retreat into the police station and bar the door, then called for help--assuming he was, for some reason, the only officer there at the campus police station.

I suppose that is possible, since it is campus police, and it was 1:30 a.m.--though since that is a time period when drunk college students abound, there should be more, not fewer, cops on duty.

Still, it does seem that when he realized the kid was out of control and belligerent, he should have retreated more completely--back behind a locked door at the station. Instead, it sounds as though he continued to dance around with the kid by himself instead of getting to someplace safe and calling for backup.

It seems the officer got himself into a situation where he could no longer fully retreat, because he initially overestimated his ability to handle by himself a single naked teenager--whom he undoubtedly assumed was simply drunk, but who was probably on bath salts, since those seem to lead to extreme aggressiveness and total psychotic breaks.

He went outside to confront the kid, didn't leave himself a safe route back into the station where he could barricade himself and call for backup, and then got scared because the kid was strong and super aggressive.

Still, if he originally thought the kid was drunk, he should not have gone out to confront him with no other means of subduing him but a gun. At the very least he should have had a Taser or a club and a cannister of pepper spray.

And since we have all read about bath salts and how people react to them, the fact that the kid was naked and pounding aggressively should have led the cop to be prepared for the likelihood that the student would not be able to be controlled with words, and that he would be too aggressive and wild to be physically controlled by hand by just one cop.

The cop's training is obviously at fault here--as well as the cop's own judgment, of course.

Cops should be trained to handle people with mental disabilities, people with mental illnesses, people with physical handicaps (like deafness, which would prevent them from immediately obeying a spoken order), people on drugs, drunks, etc.

They should be aware of the signs that someone is on a drug that can make him aggressive and virtually impervious to pain. But they should also be aware of the signs of insulin shock in diabetics, so they don't assume the guy is an uncooperative drunk who "needs" to get the sh** kicked out of him for not obeying commands.

Instead, their training is woefully inadequate--or nonexistent--and their only way of handling any situation seems to be to escalate violence and force, to beat the crap out of and Tase citizens (even a citizen who happens to be the one who called the cops for help because he/she was being victimized by someone else!), and shoot to kill.

The cops really are out of control in this country, and no matter what they do, they never suffer any real consequences that might cause the next one to maybe pause for a moment before brutalizing the citizens whom they are supposedly there to protect.

Cops are the largest and most dangerous armed gang in America.

[byeya]

73. Thanks for bringing all these details to our(my) attention. The officer should have been provided

with two non lethal means of defense and means of subduing an out-of-control unarmed person.
The officer should also know that his/her dispatcher could summon help within a reasonable time.

The officer needed to keep at least eye contact on the subject so that the subject would not try and harm another person. If the student tried to harm someone else then an escalation of tactics and weapons would have been justified.

There is nothing wrong with waiting for help and it is necessary for a lone officer to call for backup.

[MADem]

62. I'm betting that cop wishes he or she could have confined the kid to his room.

Problem is, the kid was nekkid outside the police station, banging on the windows at two something in the morning, not in his room. The commotion the student was causing was what drew police attention to him.

The police officer shot his (or her--I really don't know what the gender of the cop was) pistol just once. This wasn't a willy-nilly thing on the part of the police, I don't think. But I don't know, either.

There will be more reports, and more amplification about motives and reasons and things of that nature, eventually, I'm guessing.

[davsand]

53. Defensive shooting is shooting into the center of the body mass.

Cops and military are taught to aim for the center of the body mass. I realize that the TV shows have created a culture that thinks it is somehow a good idea to "shoot the gun out of their hand" or "shoot them in the leg" but the reality is that any training at all teaches you to shoot for the center of the target. Partly this is because you stand a better chance of hitting what you aim at when you shoot for the center. Partly this is because a shot to the extremities is possibly not gonna stop the aggressor from keeping on coming. (Even shooting somebody according to the training is no guarantee that they are gonna go down and stay down, BTW.) Don't even think that a head shot is possible, either. THAT is a huge fiction created by TV and movies.

Something else I want to point out here is that nobody can ever really predict how they will react physically or emotionally to a scenario where they are under attack and have to use deadly force. We can sit here safely removed and second guess actions, but we are not there attempting to process everything in real time. The time you just spent reading this one paragraph is longer than most shooters have to make the decision, and when it means killing somebody that is not much time to work it through.

I'm not gonna defend the cop. I dunno what happened for sure, I was not there. I'm like a lot of other people in here who wonder why a taser was not brought out, and I'm also wondering why it was ONE cop coming out of the station to deal with this kid (wouldn't you think there'd have been more than ONE guy holding down the fort on a Saturday night???) You have one dead kid and quite probably a cop that is wrestling with the reality that he ended a life. This whole thing is tragic, and a lot of questions are gonna need to be answered before it is all said and done.



Laura

[MADem]

71. Most cops aren't a good enough shot to shoot a gun out of someone's hand.

Shoot to stop does sound nicer than shoot to kill, but we all know the result is usually the same.

I am not blaming or dissing the cop. I am pretty sure that when that guy or gal put on the little uniform and headed out to work on the graveyard shift, the idea in mind wasn't to kill one of the "paying customers" at the school.

This is just a sad situation. The eagerness to paint the police officer as "nefarious" is just not supported by the facts at hand.

[byeya]

87. Last year one of the state universities - Michigan I think - had college students who had never

used a gun, lie face down with a non-working handgun, and had an officer approach the prone student - this was a training exercise so all had disabled guns - and the student was instructed to try and "shoot" the cop.
Even though the students had no training, all were able to get their "guns" into firing position and pull the trigger before the experienced officer could draw his weapon and "fire".

There is very little time to act if you're an LE officer in some cases.

(I don't mean to imply that this is relevant here: This is just to back up the poster who said often cops have split seconds to make life or death decisions.)

[valerief]

58. Wow. Now I understand why car chases end in tragedy far too often.

The cops even drive to kill.

[MADem]

75. Not sure where you found that particular nugget from this sad tale. nt

[byeya]

76. There has been a decades-long controversey about engaging in high speed chases and

the concensus is - although it varies from department to department and agency to agency - to prevent people from getting hurt, maimed and/or killed. Some departments take into account the violation the driver has been said to commit: If the driver has a tail light out and runs from a cop, then some departments say to break off the chase and try to locate the driver later because of the danger of innocent people being killed. If the driver has just held up a liquor store and killed the owner, then the chase will go on until the driver/murderer is captured.

Some officers are killed on the side of the road while interviewing a person they've just stopped by a third motorist acting on hatred for law enforcement. Others are killed in auto accidents while responding to calls for help.

Last year was one of the few years where more officers were shot to death than killed in motor vehicle accidents.

[slackmaster]

70. No. Training has always been to shoot to STOP. The most reliable way of doing that is to aim...

...for center of mass.

Shooting to KILL is by definition murder - Malice aforethought.

[davidthegnome]

50. Reminds me of something

When I was in elementary school, a friend of mine told what stupid little boys thought of as a funny joke.

Erick: So, I've got this joke. Okay, this guy, he's standing on the edge of a bridge, on the rail, or whatever. He's ready to jump. A cop comes over to stop him.
Me: Okay, and then...?
Erick: The Cop says, "Jump and I'll shoot!"
Me: So what happened?
Erick: The guy jumped and the cop shot his brains out before he hit the river.

..... This seems a real life example of that very scenario.

[4th law of robotics]

108. Every single time someone suggests a limb-shot

It's never a good idea.

This isn't a movie.

[naaman fletcher]

127. This isn't the movies. nt.

[tblue37]

64. Well, I found out why the cop didn't just go inside the station and lock the door.

Last edited Sun Oct 7, 2012, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)

The most recent article I read on the incident says:

“The assailant kneeled for a moment, and then he rose again, rushing and chasing the officer, who continued to retreat away from the building <emphasis added>. . . ."

That makes no sense at all. Why retreat away from the building? The cop must have been trained by pillow fighting with Girl Scouts. Who retreats away from his secure base?

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20121006/NEWS/310060052/University-South-Alabama-officer-shoots-18-year-old-Wetumpka-graduate-Gilbert-Collar-death

[davidthegnome]

66. Well... hmm...

Pillow fighting with girl scouts... ? Scuse me, had to recover my breath.

Good point though. It's like those horror movies where, rather than running out the door or escaping through a window, people run up the stairs or down into the basement.

[MADem]

68. Wasn't the banging happening on the SIDE of the building?

If you round the corner of a building to investigate a noise (and all we know about the noise is that it was some sort of "banging&quot , and someone charges you, you don't always have a choice as to which way to run to get away from the person who is pursuing you.

I think your insistence that the police officer willingly retreated "away from his" (or her?) "secure base" is not supported by any information provided to this point. It's very easy to be a Monday morning QB.

[wtmusic]

96. He should have gone inside the station, locked the door, and hid behind a desk

until the scary naked man went away. You know, Protect and Serve.

[aikoaiko]

72. If an aggressive/erratic person charges a police officer with his gun drawn and had already

ordered the aggressive person to stop what he was doing several times, then I think its clear that the aggressive person intended to do great bodily harm to the officer.

Its tragic that the college student acted this way and was shot, but based on available information I can't really fault the police officer.

[davidthegnome]

78. Well...

We are talking about an armed, trained Police Officer at a Police Station who we would hope had all the tools necessary to defuse the situation - without resorting to lethal force. Based on available information, I think it might be safely asserted that there were other solutions available.

[wundermaus]

81. There is a lack of connection...

I think the response to being attacked by a naked college student would have been different if the student was the officer's son... or brother. We need to find another way to deal with each other that does not result in killing each other. Killing each other is not an option. Find another way, please. Look at each other as connected. We are all in this life together... killing should be the LAST option. In my world, killing is the LAST option.

[patrice]

85. There are people with guns who WANT to kill someone. nt

[tblue37]

104. Yep,like the cop wannabe who gunned down Trayvon Martin. I think he ws looking for an opportunity. n

[patrice]

105. We hear about these pretty frequently and the answer is ALWAYS, TTE, "There was no choice" or

"Err on the side of "safety" or "Due to confusion, it couldn't be helped."

I have been around people in social settings who responded with pure glee at depictions of extreme gun violence on the tv. Am I to think that trait, that delight, is meaningless?

Not. likely.

[Iggo]

86. Yay, Cops!

They're the best!

[Eleanors38]

89. Many in this thread aren't going to wait for further investigation...

They hate cops, and that's good enough for them.

Such liberals we are.

[davidthegnome]

90. I don't hate cops

I generally frown upon stupid cops though. I'm not yet asserting that this cop is, or was stupid... but I will suggest that there are several reasons to question his professionalism, intellect and ability - perhaps those questions will be answered with further information. Perhaps the Officer in question reacted to the situation in the only way he safely could. I don't know. What I do know is that a naked, unarmed college kid... should not constitute a grave threat to a trained, armed police officer.

There are reasons that police officers (generally) have access to several tools. Handcuffs, pepper spray, night sticks, tasers - and finally fire arms. In this case, I feel that the gun should have been the last tool to be used - only when and if it became unavoidable.

[Eleanors38]

115. I'm willing to let the investigation proceed. I see your points. nt

[Exultant Democracy]

92. Unarmed and naked teen vs the guy with a night stick tazer pepper spray and gun. Not rocket science

The simple fact is that our justice system in the US is out of control, and the police are a part of that problem.

[Eleanors38]

112. This may eventually come back onto the police, but I'll wait to see...

I find it objectionable to see so much presupposition based on animosity toward law enforcement. It sounds like the same kind of broad brush used to smear different races, religions and regions, and just because it is based on one's occupation doesn't make it less so. I do find something out of control when, as happened in Austin, TX a month ago, a punk brutally raped and beat a woman in her late 50s. He was out of jail after committing 28 felonies, many violent.

He should be warehoused.

[Exultant Democracy]

117. Or we should look at the way other countries with far better outcomes conduct their justic systems.

The rescission rates in the US are absurd, especially considering that high number of non-violent first time offenders.

If that punk had been incarcerated in a judicial system modeled off of Norway rather then the horror show we call a justice system here, she probably would not have been raped and beaten.

[Eleanors38]

128. If proper intervention had occurred earlier, perhaps. But given our system, he should not have been

out of prison after his hideous track record. He was, and the inevitable happened.

So much of our serious crime is committed by the usual suspects. These same offenders seem to know how our crappy system works -- and are more than willing to take advantage of it, so that they may continue committing the same (and usually worse) crimes. I'm all for changing our justice "system," but until then, when someone commits four, six, a dozen or more serious crimes, then they need to be out of society where they can harm so many more people.

[MindMover]

95. Next headline to cover up ....

"Naked man pulling a gun out of his ass, gets shot by campus police" ...

[davidthegnome]

139. Hmm...

Be pretty damned impressive if someone could fit a whole gun up their ass.

[lalalu]

110. If you take stuff

that makes you behave like a rabid dog then you may get put down by one. I am a big critic of police officers using excessive force but I think it was justified in this case. These people are hopped up and ripping flesh off their victims with their bare teeth. This is one case where I would have shot him dead also.

[JonLP24]

130. Baffling

I'm not just talking about the shooting of the unarmed, naked man.

I think there a lot of unanswered questions at this point. As far as to the incident in question, I'm reading that it was caught on camera.

Given that it was Saturday AM following a Friday night, it is likely he wasn't sober, especially when compared to statements about him but I don't understand how some could isolate it to one substance. Acting erratically, tolerance for pain, a large variety of substances can produce that, even alcohol. You may roll your eyes at that but I experimented w/ a number of different substances myself and alcohol is the one I acted the worst, stupid, had no idea what I done while I was under the influence.

[davidthegnome]

132. Good point

Yes, alcohol can cause that kind of behavior in extreme circumstances. I blacked out once when I was younger and didn't feel the pain of various bruises, cuts and scratches until the next morning. I'm not rolling my eyes - I've seen plenty of people go bonkers from just alcohol.

For now, we'll just have to wait and see what further investigation reveals.

[LisaL]

146. He was on LSD.

[JonLP24]

148. Thanks

That was actually one of the substances I probably thought since he had no clothes on.

[MADem]

140. LATEST on this matter: There's VIDEO, apparently.

http://riehlworldview.com/2012/10/gilbert-thomas-collar-friends-question-shooting-confrontation-recorded-by-security-cameras.html

Campus officials said the confrontation was recorded by security cameras. The video and other information has been turned over to the district attorney and the Mobile County Sheriff’s Office, which will review the shooting.
Collar was the second person killed on the South Alabama campus since last year.
A university freshman was charged with murder in the fatal stabbing of another teenager who was slain in an on-campus apartment in July 2011. The victim was a visitor to campus and was not enrolled, authorities said.

[LisaL]

145. Student was on LSD.

"MOBILE, Ala. (AP) — A University of South Alabama freshman wasn't armed when he was fatally shot by a campus police officer, authorities said Tuesday, and he had taken LSD, assaulted others and chased the officer before being killed."

http://enewscourier.com/statenews/x905914375/Police-Student-took-LSD-before-campus-shooting

[AngryAmish]

149. hmmmm