New York City becomes the largest municipality in the U.S. to allow noncitizens to vote

[BumRushDaShow]

Last edited Thu Dec 9, 2021, 07:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: Washington Post

NEW YORK — The city council here on Thursday approved a measure that will allow immigrants who are not U.S. citizens to vote for mayor and other key municipal positions, a historic move that is igniting threats of legal challenges from Republicans and hopes from Democrats that other cities will follow suit.

The council voted 33 to 14 with two abstentions and the measure immediately grants noncitizens significant leverage over a broad array of elective offices, including the mayor, city council, comptroller, the public advocate and the leaders of the city’s five boroughs who oversee issues such as zoning.

Approximately 1 million adult noncitizens live in New York City, which amounts to 20 percent of current registered voters, though it remains unclear how many would be eligible to vote, according to census figures, academic estimates and the bill’s sponsor. To register, noncitizens must have lived here for 30 days, the same requirement for citizens, and have at least a work permit.

Noncitizens remain ineligible to vote for state and federal elections. Those in the United States illegally cannot vote. Anyone who violates the measure could face up to $500 in fines and a year in jail. “The New York City Council is making history,” said Council Member Ydanis Rodriguez, the bill’s sponsor who is an immigrant and naturalized citizen from the Dominican Republic. “New York City must be seen as a shining example for other progressive cities to follow.”

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/new-york-noncitizen-voting/2021/12/09/b9ef5748-5848-11ec-a808-3197a22b19fa_story.html

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Full headline: New York City becomes the largest municipality in the U.S. to allow noncitizens to vote in local elections

Head explosions will ensue.

ETA - from the article a historical note -

Forty states allowed noncitizen voting from 1776 to 1926, Hayduk said. But noncitizen voting and immigration declined with new restrictions on immigration that effectively barred Chinese immigrants and restricted immigration for decades.

I.e., up until the early 20th century, non-citizen Europeans were permitted to vote (mostly Irish and Italians). Then when non-European groups began to form a larger share of immigrants, that all ended.

[grumpyduck]

2. Agreed.

[tulipsandroses]

9. Then perhaps non citizens should not serve in the army, be police officers, firefighters

Start businesses that employ citizens. Buy homes and pay property taxes that fund public schools.
Non citizens come in all stripes. Honest journalism would at least point that out. Non citizens include permanent residents, green card holders. It includes people who have been granted asylum.
Yesterday a street in Washington DC was named after Jamaal Khashoggi- A permanent resident who was a non citizen.
There are 35,000 non citizens in the armed forces. It’s an interesting thing that they can die for this country, but those same folks shouldn’t have a say in what happens in their local communities. We will take your sacrifice but nope, can’t vote in your kid’s school board election.
Should they not be counted in a census either?

[tulipsandroses]

18. I see. I'd like to see what would happen if NY stopped counting almost

a million people in the census. Something tells me that might not be favorable for the Democratic Party.
Side note, since it’s mentioned in this thread. Non citizen is not = illegal immigrant.

[tulipsandroses]

33. I'm not trying to berate you. I'm trying to see the rationale for these stances

Last edited Thu Dec 9, 2021, 09:51 PM - Edit history (2)

So far, the consensus is republicans will use it against Dems. Republicans will do what they do, no matter what.
I don’t see any short cuts.
I am from a family of immigrants. When my parents applied for naturalization, it took about 6 months. Today, the wait time is 2 years in some places. Mind you, on average, permanent residents have already lived and worked in the USA for 7 years before applying for naturalization.
You have to be a permanent resident for at least 5 years before you are eligible to apply for naturalization. 3 if you are the spouse of an American citizen. During that time people are doing all the things I said in my previous post, working, teaching, serving in the armed forces, starting businesses, contributing and building their communities. I don’t see short cuts there. Not when people are waiting almost 10 years for naturalization.

The system was already backlogged, trump made it worse, slowing it even further, then came Covid and USCIS offices were closed for a good stretch. When we (family of 4)applied for naturalization the naturalization fee was $225. $900 was a lot of money for my parents back then. Under trump, the fee went to over $1100. I imagine today it is even harder for a family of 4 to come up with $4400 when most people couldn’t find $300 for an emergency.

We will have to disagree that this is somehow a short cut in a backlogged system, intentionally sabotaged with exorbitant price hikes and delays to deter people from applying in the first place.
ETA:
I did not include the time it takes to be approved for permanent residency. It took my mother almost 4 years . I can only imagine what the wait time is now. So 4 years to get permanent residency, then wait 5-7 years to apply for naturalization. Then another 2 years for naturalization to be approved.
Maybe the focus should be on fixing a backlogged system vs people in a community not earning the right after waiting years and contributing to their communities and country.

[AZLD4Candidate]

21. It's only for NYC offices. To vote in State or Federal elections, they still can't.

This will fall under a 9th and 10th amendment argument.

Remember, states make their own voting laws. Since NYC has its own government, they can reform their voting laws inside their municipality.

If the GOP in NYC (all ten of them) don't like it, push a state law that forbids municipalities within the states to do this.

I can't see the GOP having standing in a legal threat, because non-citizens could equally vote either way.

But if they are working and paying taxes, why not?

[Escurumbele]

37. "But if they are working and paying taxes, why not?" Because Putin or anyone else can send people

To sabotage those elections, and that kind of local elections can create chaos.

This is a right by citizens only. What is the goal here?

[AllTooEasy]

39. Serving in the military, getting a job, and starting a business are voluntary

Paying taxes is involuntary, but the idea that non-citizens don't pay taxes and citizens pay taxes is absolutely ludicrous in any nation. I lived in Japan and Malaysian. I paid real property, income, and sales taxes like everyone else living and working there. I perfectly understood why I couldn't vote there. I could still vote in the US, despite paying almost no US taxes. Taxation does not equal Voting Rights.

[Escurumbele]

36. Another agree...I think that is crazy, imagine how good that is for Putin.

[rockfordfile]

44. I agree

[DFW]

45. I am a non-citizen legal resident of Germany

I have the right to vote in municipal elections, though I choose not to. I understand the reasoning behind allowing it, and can't say that I disagree. They take 50% of my income in taxes and give nothing in return. I think they have a right to offer at least this as a token gesture.

[Mike Nelson]

3. I think...

... this plays into the hands of Crooked Donald, FOX "News" and their ilk. They will stir this up and make it a winning issue.

[ashredux]

4. A terribly time to do this....

Plays into the far right playbook….not needed today…

[elleng]

6. Sadly typical of Dems' decision-making.

[TheAnnoyedAgnostic]

41. Anything the Dems do will be

demonized by the Fox and the GOP. That’s how they roll!

[Ohioboy]

5. This is not good, and plays right into the hands of the "Big lie" Trump supporters

They have always claimed that Dems want illegals to vote and this will give that talking point cred. Why, especially now, is this something that's being done?

[Qutzupalotl]

7. Consider my head exploded.

I think this is a dumb idea. Just look at how your thread title got truncated — that’s all most voters will hear. They’ll think we want noncitizens to elect a president. Minimal benefit, maximum downside for us.

[JohnSJ]

8. Working to help republicans to win the midterms. Whose brilliant idea was this with the midterms

right around the corner

[JohnSJ]

12. The article says republicans are threatening legal challenges. I hope there are Democrats to join

them to neutralize this idiotic legislation

This is almost as good as the "defund the police" slogan

We don't need republicans to lose, we are doing quite a good job of it ourselves

[BumRushDaShow]

13. Well from the article they noted this-

Fourteen smaller jurisdictions in the United States allow noncitizens to vote, mostly in Maryland, including Hyattsville and Takoma Park, but also in Vermont and for the school board in San Francisco. Cities such as Los Angeles, Washington and Portland, Maine, have floated the idea, said Ron Hayduk, political science professor at San Francisco State University and the author of “Democracy for All: Restoring Immigrant Voting in the U.S.”

I suppose the legal challenges might be countered that it is for "local" elections only. If it were anything federal it would obviously be unconstitutional.

[BumRushDaShow]

17. I was born and raised and currently live in Philadelphia

This is a New York City thing. The NYC City Council voted for this by a wide margin and are apparently following what their constituents want, I expect perhaps with as much fervor as the loony right mandates against teaching about slavery, allowing abortion rights, and promotes unrestricted open carry including in courtrooms.

Their argument apparently has been that you have many who are in the citizenship pipeline who are here legally with residency/green cards, and thus should have some say about how their tax money is spent.

I have no skin in their game.

[BumRushDaShow]

25. The NYT finally woke up with their article

New York City Gives 800,000 Noncitizens Right to Vote in Local Elections

By Jeffery C. Mays and Annie Correal
Dec. 9, 2021, 6:45 p.m. ET



New York City became the largest city in the country to allow noncitizens to vote in local elections after the City Council on Thursday overwhelmingly approved legislation granting the right to more than 800,000 legal residents. The move places New York City at the forefront of the debate over voting rights, serving as a stark contrast to some states that have moved to add voting restrictions, including explicitly barring noncitizens from voting. The legislation was approved over the objections of Mayor Bill de Blasio, who questioned whether the City Council has the power to grant voting rights to noncitizens. Legal experts expect that the bill could face a legal challenge.

Noncitizens would be able to begin to register to vote a year from now. They could begin voting in local elections as of Jan. 9, 2023, according to the City Council. The legislation affects those with green cards or the right to work in the United States; it does not entitle them to vote in state or federal elections. Councilman Ydanis Rodriguez, the bill’s primary sponsor, said the law will give more people who live in New York City and pay taxes there a say in how the city is run. “People who are looking to get elected to office will now have to spend the same amount of time in the communities affected by this legislation as they do in upper-class neighborhoods,” Mr. Rodriguez said in an interview.

(snip)

Mr. de Blasio has said he would not veto the bill. The bill automatically becomes law if it is not signed in 30 days. The mayor contended that noncitizen voting is a right that the state would have to grant, a position that many experts disagree with.Towns in Vermont and Maryland already allow noncitizens to vote in municipal elections. Noncitizens in San Francisco can vote in school board elections and several municipalities in Illinois, Maine and Massachusetts are also considering allowing noncitizen voting.

In New York, the mayor-elect, Eric Adams, has said he supports the rights of green card holders to vote in local elections and has urged passage of the legislation. But he, too, has questioned whether the City Council has the ability to grant voting rights to noncitizens. A spokesman for Mr. Adams said he would review the legislation when he takes office. Experts say that the New York State Constitution grants voting rights to citizens but does not explicitly prevent noncitizen voting. Noncitizens were allowed to vote in New York City school board elections until the boards were abolished in the early 2000s.

(snip)


More: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/nyregion/noncitizens-voting-rights-nyc.html

[BumRushDaShow]

29. He's a lame duck

and will be out of office in a few weeks. Eric Adams will be sworn in on New Year's Day 2022.

[JohnSJ]

16. It doesn't matter, this is NY City, and as you can tell from just reading the posts in your thread,

this isn't going to sit well among most of the population in the country, and I think it will impact the midterms

[BumRushDaShow]

19. See this

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2838419

It's a NYC thing and I don't live there nor do I work there and they are going to do what they are going to do until the courts or the voters tell them not to.

I think it's silly to keep locking onto local issues and making them "national" in order to slam "Democrats". There are states right now that have legalized recreational marijuana despite it being against federal law. For decades, "gay marriage" was "an issue", with state after state haltingly going from "no gay marriage at all" to "well maybe try civil unions" to finally "restrictive-gender marriage is ridiculous, go ahead" (with an eventual SCOTUS nod).

This is part and parcel of a Republic.

[JohnSJ]

24. I respectfully disagree with your assessment on this. I don't believe comparing this to marijuana

use or gay marriage, people will view that as the same thing.

As for it not being a national issue, the republicans are making these issues into a national issue. That is what they did with the recall of the California governor, and the Virginia governor race, whether we like it or not.

I would be very surprised if this wasn't brought up in the midterms.

As for your assumption that the city council is doing what their constituents want, that will be determined in the next election

[BumRushDaShow]

28. It's a "wedge issue"

I posted excerpts from the ("late" but finally published) NYT article here - https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2838439

This is apparently latched onto the "immigration" issue, including DACA, where you have hundreds of thousands in this country who came here as infants and children who are in or are trying to get in the citizenship pipeline to become full "documented" citizens, including those who have work permits/green cards, and who pay taxes, yet have no say.

Republicans are against "immigration" (until they need it for producing more white babies or for working the citrus crops or working in the meat-packing plants).

“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore." is ironically, a "slogan" that is engraved on a certain famous object sitting right there in the New York Harbor.



As I noted, I have no personal skin in NYC's game but they are making decisions based on what they believe their constitutents want. Democrats have been accused of not reaching out to the immigrant community, having ceded that outreach effort to the GOP, notably in some big states like Texas and Florida, where the GOP have snapped up a good chunk of the Hispanic vote in those states.

[NYC Liberal]

14. Terrible idea.

[70sEraVet]

23. Look at it as 'outsourcing'.

We can't get a large enough percentage of our citizens to vote, so we solve the problem the same way businesses solve the problem of not getting enough enough local workers to fill the companies' employment needs.

[BumRushDaShow]

31. Unfortunately if you look at the turnout in "off year" elections

it's abysmal.

I know I have screamed and screamed (here and to friends) that people have to vote EVERY YEAR and EVERY ELECTION. Not just every 4 years or maybe every 2 years if there is a gubernatorial election that happens in there that might garner some "interest".

The GOP gets their loons out during those off years when you have municipal and County elections and they pack the Counties with people intent on "owning the libs" statewide.

New York City Voter Turnout Hits Record Low For A Mayoral Election

by Brigid Bergin, WNYC
Dec 1, 8:53 PM


A smaller percentage of New York City voters turned out in the November 2021 general election than in any other mayoral election in nearly seven decades. That’s based on final election results certified by the New York City Board of Elections on Tuesday compared with annual turnout figures reported by the agency dating back to 1953.

Just 23% of eligible active voters cast a ballot for mayor — or 1.15 million of 4.95 active voters — down three percentage points from the past two mayoral elections in 2017 and 2013. The voter turnout percentage dips even lower, to 21%, when including both active and so-called inactive registered voters. Those are voters who are registered but must cast an affidavit ballot because the Board of Elections has a question about their residence.

The turnout rates by borough varied. In the Bronx, just 17% of active voters cast a ballot in the mayoral contest, compared with 22% in Brooklyn, 23% in Queens, 27% in Manhattan, and 34% in Staten Island. Citywide, Mayor-elect Eric Adams secured 66% of the total vote — or 753,801 votes of the 1.15 total. Curtis Sliwa amassed 310,385 votes on the Republican and Independence party lines, or 27%. While Adams, the outgoing Brooklyn Borough President, won a decisive victory over Sliwa, his voters represent just 15% of the city’s active voters.

He performed the best among voters in Manhattan where he captured 78% of the vote, or 219,045 of the 279,217 votes cast; Sliwa only won 13% or 36,668 votes there. The largest share of the vote went to Sliwa in the Republican stronghold of Staten Island, where he won 65%, or 69,924 votes, compared to Adams’ 28%. Experts attribute the decline in voter participation to both political and structural factors.

https://gothamist.com/news/new-york-city-voter-turnout-hits-record-low-mayoral-election

[BumRushDaShow]

43. I think what many people tend to think here

is that the "average person" is as involved in or cares about "politics" as much as people who post here (where the fact is that ANYONE who posts here and discusses "politics" is a tiny subset of the overall population). The majority of the U.S. population is not "into politics".

They might hear about it on the evening news and if they happen to use social media, may be more exposed to it than most would have been, but it's not their be all end all. So unless something goes on "locally" that negatively impacts them or family or friends, they are not going to act like an "activist" and get politically involved.

Believe it or not, a good analogy to use, at least for the Democratic-heavy urban areas when it comes to voting, is what we have seen with the vaccine hesitancy by many demographics that have nothing to do with GOP misinformation. A good chunk are either procrastinators or will provide a myriad of excuses (some valid) as to why they don't get around to voting or getting vaxxed. It's not due to hearing RW nonsense. It has zero to do with "internalizing" some comments that we might post here about "Dems don't vote".

It's more along the lines "We don't have time" or "I'll get around to it..." (and they don't) or "All they do is talk talk talk and we don't see any change where we live". It's as simple as that.

What we have seen recently is that extending the time frames for voting (including early voting) and/or allowing "no-excuse absentee" mail-in ballots (like we finally got here in PA for 2020), have actually made a huge difference for a good chunk of the un-engaged, and that's why the GOP is now trying to roll all of that back.

IMHO, the franchise needs to be something that starts young and be pounded on in school at the earliest grades. I know in my household, my parents always voted EVERY election and even brought us with them to watch, and before my mom passed away, I always made sure she got to the polls (taking off from work to get her to her polling place so she could vote) - whether for the primaries or general. When I was away at college, I applied for and voted by absentee ballot every election.

So it is a habit that needs to be developed early on in someone's life in order to be sustained for the long term IMHO.

[WhoWoodaKnew]

30. Terribly, horribly, brain dead stupid.

[roamer65]

32. For local offices only, I have no problem IF they are LEGAL immigrants.

For state and federal level…no.

[pecosbob]

34. I got no problem with non-citizen residents voting in municipal elections...but

Let's work on removing voting barriers for citizens first. We're in the middle of an existential struggle for voting rights nationwide and these dummies go off on this tangent?

[cntrfthrs]

35. from what I gather, the premise behind this...

is "No taxation without representation"...the democrats had better hammer this home in the media or you know the republiques/MAGAts will be screaming..

[Polybius]

40. Why wasn't this put up as a ballot initiative?

Because they lost the other ones this November (Same day registration and more). NYC's politicians don't care about the will of the people.

[jcmaine72]

42. If they're forced to pay taxes they should have a say in how

their tax dollars are spent.

No taxation without representation, remember? Seems to me that used to be an American virtue...that is, until people with last names like Rodriguez, Ahmed, and Chiang showed up.

[MichMan]

48. Lots of people pay non resident city income taxes in cities where they work

They are not permitted to vote in those city elections even though they pay taxes there.

[NurseJackie]

46. This will have many negative side-effects that will hurt Democrats.

It's right up there with "Defund the Police" in the damage it will cause... and in the opportunities it gives to the GOP to use it against Democrats.

[treestar]

47. right wingers would be hypocritical to complain

if it's what a local area wants, they should have it. That's how they usually are about these things.

[Polybius]

51. Not if they think it's unconstitutional

Then they have every right to complain.

[treestar]

54. It is constitutional

States can make their election laws.

[Polybius]

55. I don't believe it is

I want it struck down.

[Bucky]

49. New York City was one of (if not *the*) first place to allow non-property holders to vote

It was a point of contention in the Constitutional & ratification debates of the 1780s. All the other jurisdictions in the country were spooked by the idea of mere workmen voting. After all, at the time this clearly meant that Negroes and Irishmen could vote. There were even some women voting over in New Jersey, but at least they were property owners and respectable widows.

[BumRushDaShow]

50. Except that includes an "*"

Could Black People Vote in New York in 1827?

Throughout the late 18th and early 19th centuries, groups such as the Manumission Society fought to abolish slavery in New York. In 1827, all forms of slavery in New York State, which had been increasingly restricted since 1799, were abolished. Black men were finally extended some voting rights in New York. Between 1820 and 1840, property qualifications were gradually removed throughout the country, and the right to vote was extended to all white males, regardless of their religion or whether they owned property.

However, the property restriction was not lifted for Black men, and due to strict regulations, just 16 black New Yorkers were actually able to vote in 1827. Over the next 50 years, in referendum after referendum after referendum, in 1846, 1860, and 1869, the white voters of New York continued to restrict the rights of Black men to vote by refusing to eliminate the property qualification for Black voters, a restriction that did not apply to white voters.

https://www.villagepreservation.org/2021/02/01/voting-rights-for-all-1624-1870/

[Bucky]

52. One change that occurred under Federalist Party is the restriction of voting rights

I don't know the exact details for New York (so thank you for that link!), but I know that imposing property requirements actually made the 1800 election considerably less democratic than the 1788/1789 voting cycle.

A lot of the popular voting expansion toward "universal" white male suffrage in the early Jacksonian period were reforming and repealing property requirement laws that were only one generation on the books.

One shameful truth of the Jacksonian reforms were that they appealed to white working class voters in part by stressing how they would be socially elevated further above free blacks.

[BumRushDaShow]

53. In other words

the type of "cycle" that you see today - things "open up" to be more inclusive and then the reforms successively get pulled. I'm guessing back then like today, you have the "squeaky wheels" complaining about "the process" and how it was "implemented", prompting a demand in "reforms" to it, and that opens the door to revert back to exclusions.

After that early Constitution-development and post-Constitution process, you eventually had a Civil War that at its conclusion, opened (some) things up again, particularly in places where it never existed, like in the south using a couple Constitutional amendments, and out west, where for example, you had suffrage for women occurring in Utah.

But then the squeaky wheels complained, implemented Jim Crow in the South and passed federal legislation to disenfranchise women in Utah (through a convoluted process of dismantling the-then LDS church municipal decrees and functions at the time in order to halt the polygamy within it), and away the inclusiveness went.

And today? Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

[Yandex]

56. I like the idea but cannot support it n/t

[LudwigPastorius]

57. Are the requirements for obtaining citizenship for permanent residents and green card holders...

THAT onerous?

A green card holder must establish residence for 5 years and pay $725 bucks to become a citizen. You can find free naturalization classes just about everywhere.

If someone lives here, and wants to vote badly enough, they should take the test. Pass, and they can vote in ALL elections.

[Retrograde]

58. Is NYC still collecting income taxes

from non-residents who work there? It's been nearly 50 years since I worked there but I still give thanks every April that I don't have to file city income taxes!

Aside from that, are the NYC election officials capable of handling this new influx of voters and the issues they will bring - such as having separate ballots for citizens and non-citizens on general election days? Or will they have separate election days for local elections and for everything else? They seemed to have problems coping with mail-in ballots last year, so I'm not too impressed with their organization.

[TheFarseer]

59. This is not a good idea nt