The USDA's new labeling for genetically modified foods goes into effect Jan. 1.
Source: Washington Post
The goal was to get rid of the patchwork of different labels for foods and ingredients that have been scientifically tinkered with, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. However, the move also puts a greater burden on consumers to do their homework to understand what the labels mean, food advocates say.
Foods that previously were labeled as containing genetically engineered (GE) ingredients or genetically modified organisms (GMOs) will now be labeled as bioengineered, or come with a phone number or QR code guiding consumers to more information online.
The changes are part of the USDAs new rules on controversial modified crops and ingredients. Previous labeling requirements were governed differently on a state-by-state basis. By providing a uniform, national standard for labeling bioengineered foods, it avoids a patchwork of state labeling regulations, a USDA spokeswoman said in a statement.
Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/01/01/usda-bioengineered-food-rules/
not fooled
(5,801 posts)for corporate agribusiness.
Caveat emptor for the masses.
jimfields33
(15,809 posts)I think the more info the better.
not fooled
(5,801 posts)that's the worst toadying--I'll bet most food manufacturers will do this, knowing that most food purchasers won't bother. It's a way to dodge disclosing that the food is genetically engineered. Even "bioengineered" is a dodge, also--sounds better than other descriptors--it's all a way to quell public awareness and knowledge of what's in the food being sold to them.
Before this rule change, the label had to use the term "GMO (genetically modified organism)" or "GE (genetically engineered)" which are more informative. This change is a leap backwards, by design.
Achilleaze
(15,543 posts)Richard D
(8,754 posts)Really sucks. No notice on the packages other than a phone number or QR code is ridiculous.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)Allowing non-standard terms and delivery of the identification is the exact opposite of clear labeling.
no_hypocrisy
(46,117 posts)Agribusiness stopped labeling "high fructose corn syrup" as "corn sugar". It's meant to deceive. Fortunately the FDA didn't give its approval.
cstanleytech
(26,293 posts)Now if it said that it was bio-enhanced that would be a perfect example of the bullshit the corn industry tried to get away with.
Chellee
(2,097 posts)So unless it specifically tells you it's not gmo, assume that it is. The pastoral new label is fun though. It really out to show lab equipment.
cab67
(2,993 posts)Unless it's wild game, it's been genetically modified by humans.
ret5hd
(20,492 posts)if they inserted a genes from a cow into a dog and the comment someone makes was "well, we've been genetically modifying dogs for centuries so this isn't any different."
Yeah...maybe technically true...but still different.
cab67
(2,993 posts)If someone managed to hybridize a cow and dog, one might accomplish the same thing. Cows and dogs, of course, don't hybridize - but the process is no different from very precise hybridization.
Farmer-Rick
(10,175 posts)It was to make the skin tougher for shipping. No one knew. It didn't sell well because it had a fishy flavor. Opps.
Fish genes in tomatoes is as natural as most GMO crap corporations try to feed Americans. Enjoy.
cab67
(2,993 posts)"These and several other methods enable scientists to evade natural barriers that cells use to protect themselves from foreign DNA.
Thus, genes from bacteria can be introduced into a plantor, as in one instance, a fish gene can be introduced into a tomato." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280366/
Opps...did the NCBI actually publish that?
The original claim was that tomatoes with a fish gene didnt sell well because of their flavor. In fact, they never made it to consumers.
The article I linked to said pretty much the same thing as the article you linked to - which was a commentary, by the way - not a peer-reviewed paper.
Farmer-Rick
(10,175 posts)It is a fact. And it did make it to the stores but as a test in a limited market....still didn't tell the buyers.
But not a myth either way.
cab67
(2,993 posts)...as follows: "It was to make the skin tougher for shipping. No one knew. It didn't sell well because it had a fishy flavor. Opps."
In fact, it was to generate greater resistance to freezing. It failed not because of any fishy flavor (which was absent), but because it didn't impart the hoped-for resistance to freezing.
It wasn't sold at stores.
I did some additional research. There has been a problem with fishy-tasting tomatoes in some markets, but it appears to be the result of using fish meal as fertilizer.
I don't know why you can't admit your initial premise was inaccurate, because it clearly was.
madville
(7,410 posts)Many forms of wild game spend a lifetime eating genetically modified crops in the field or from feeders filled with GMO corn, etc.
I still consider wild game better than store bought of course, already have about 150 pounds of venison in the freezer this year
Farmer-Rick
(10,175 posts)GMOs have gotten so out of control in the US, America can't guarantee GMO free feed unless they import it.
cinematicdiversions
(1,969 posts)Actually try to eat nonmodified wheat or bananas.
Farmer-Rick
(10,175 posts)Actually be proud about their cross species modified foods by proudly labelling their GMO crap and let the consomer decide which to buy.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)There are no genetically engineered wheat varieties grown anywhere that I have heard of.
All the amazing increases in yield are the result of directed and intelligent plant breeding. If you look at what Dr Borlaug did with his breeding program, it remains phenomenal. The Wizard and the Prophet by Charles Mann really captured his dedication and inventiveness.
The main crops that have been engineered with genes not expressed before within their species are : canola, soybeans, alfalfa, corn, cotton, and sugar beets.
That is it.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)PufPuf23
(8,785 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)continue to make the absurd claim that there is not.
It never ceases to amaze me, because they should be proud of their work.
I do not understand.
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)TeamProg
(6,135 posts)"""be labeled as bioengineered, or come with a phone number or QR code guiding consumers to more information online. """
cstanleytech
(26,293 posts)for products that have bioengineered ingredients and a completely different color for those that do not.
keopeli
(3,522 posts)New Biden changes don't even appear mostly until the third year in office.
Remember the first two years of Trump when people were saying, "but the economy is good. I think he's doing a good job." That's baloney. We lived through Obama economic effects for the first THREE years of Trump (mostly because Trump didn't change anything, he didn't know how, except for a trade fight with China, which eventually had an effect that we're living with today).
This labeling is to mask the truth and confuse the public. "Genetically" is bad. "Bio" sounds good. And, as stated, no need to even print it. Consumers must use their vaunted smartphones, scan a QR code, and then probably have to watch advertising before, maybe, getting a mixed bag of confusing information. It will take at least a decade to reverse this and the damage will be done.
So depressing watching your beloved country crumble under the weight of the dumbing of the masses.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and provide more nutrition per acre. All this fear makes about as much sense as when people were afraid of MSG. Another ridiculous hoax.
Richard D
(8,754 posts)The genetic modification is to make the crops resistant to Round-up. Only purpose.
Round-up (glyphosate) is potentially carcinogenic. Not to mention shit for the environment.
I reserve other GM's for a piece-by-piece analysis. For the most part I will not eat. If something was GM'd to be more nutrition, maybe. But resistant to herbicides or other -cides? Nope. Not ok.
the point of Round-Up Ready crops is to be able to douse them with glyphosate.
There are many different categories of genetic engineering, with different impacts on the engineered organisms. Some are no doubt innocuous. However, many modifications turn on constant, high level overexpression of genes that produce e.g. insecticidal proteins that might be human allergens or have negative impacts on our gut microflora. I just don't think enough is known about the effects of much genetic engineering on humans consuming food expressing these genes.
It's no stretch for me to conclude that, just as in many other avenues of society, agribusiness just wants to maximize profits any way they can get away with, including by genetic engineering, and having us reduced to having no clue what they are doing because that will = more $$$ for them.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)cab67
(2,993 posts)Some crops are engineered to be resistant to herbicides. The issue here isn't the crop itself - it's the herbicides, which are indeed overused.
The majority of "genetic modifications" (which covers a wide range of things) applied to crops have nothing to do with herbicide resistance.
If you don't eat "GM" food, what do you actually eat? I ask because every crop we grow is based on GM strains. There is no biological difference between the insertion of a gene in the laboratory and the insertion of a gene through hybridization. None at all.
Moreover, these crops have been investigated exhaustively, and they're safe for human consumption.
I'm on your side when it comes to limiting the application of agrichemicals (pesticides, herbicides, antibiotics), but the furor over "GM" foods is overblown.
The majority of GMOs are modified to survive round up and develop their own pesticides that are likely allergens.
But just label the crap so we can decide for ourselves.
If it's so great, buyers will figure it out.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)I find these talking point posts of lower informed people extremely irritating, to put it mildly.
cab67
(2,993 posts)There's a difference between the safety of GMO-based crops (which has been repeatedly demonstrated) and the problem of overused agricultural chemicals. I agree fully that broadcast use of herbicides is a massive problem. So are the overuses of insecticides, fertilizers, and antibiotics.
We need to keep our variables distinct.
And I meant what I said - the majority of modifications made using what some people wrongly consider to be different from ordinary hybridization are not for herbicide resistance. I wasn't referring to acreage.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)to resist herbicides or produce their own bio toxins?
Because by acres produced, the lions share are these modifications.
cab67
(2,993 posts)Not to acreage.
I stand by what I said, too - the majority of changes made by modern genetic methods (which really are no different at all from traditional hybridization, except fewer genes are involved) are unrelated to pest or chemical resistance.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)your numbers.
I am a classical plant breeder and there is nothing at all the same about these technologies.
First of all, why do people insist that a system that costs tens of millions to hundreds of millions is of dollars to engineer a novel trait into a plant the same as a system than costs hundred of thousands to a million to produce a unique variety? The costlier system is faster and can result in truly novel expressions. The less expensive classical system that every crop plant upon which we depend was bred for millennia this way. From domestication onward. And while I am a fan of slow and steady wins the race, the opportunity for new life expressions across species is powerful. The trepidation that many had was the lack of any environmental impact assessment prior to their release into the environment.
Why would companies have invested these multiple millions of dollars into this sophisticated technology if it was the same?
How rude of those making this claim. It demonstrates pretty clearly how little they know about plant breeding.
Simply put classical plant breeding is bound by genes that exist within the species or closely related species. Genetic engineering allows people to introduce novel genes from out side of the species.
cab67
(2,993 posts)Just more precise.
Traditional hybridization creates unique combinations of genes in an organism.
What happens in a lab is the addition of a limited number of genes into an organism. But the result is, biologically, the same - a unique combination of genes. That the added genes may come from a more distant relative is biologically meaningless.
Yes, this costs more money.
I haven't used insulting language toward you. PLease don't use insulting language toward me. We can disagree without resorting to that.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)come from is biologically meaningless I believe captures the crux of the problem in communication.
Classical plant breeding may utilize initial hybridization to encourage individualization of offspring in the F2 generation from which individual plants must be selected and whose seeds are then planted and more selections made generation after generation until an open pollinated variety can be developed. Which is a much slower, yet less expensive process. But hybridization is only one tool. The main tool being the selection of individuals over many growing seasons and locations.
Introducing genes from different species going through a pathway once reserved for infectious agents is clever, and certainly powerful. Opening the door to innovation.
But it is absolutely not the same.
cab67
(2,993 posts)womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)Ripeners can be incorporated as an important component of sugarcane production management strategy. Natural ripening is induced by low temperatures, water stress, nutrient stress, and a shortening of day length. Natural ripening is usually limited during the early portion of the Florida sugarcane harvest season because of plentiful soil moisture, high levels of plant-available nitrogen, and warm temperatures. Thus, chemical ripening is most effective in sugarcane scheduled for harvest in October and November.
LABELED RIPENERS
The products registered for use as a sugarcane ripener in Florida include Roundup WeatherMax, Roundup PowerMax, Roundup PowerMax II, Touchdown HiTech, Touch down Total, and Touchdown CT2. Glyphosate, the active ingredient in these products, has been shown to stimulate sucrose accumulation in sugarcane when applied at sub-lethal rates. In Florida, glyphosate can only be applied to the "last ratoon cane." Use on earlier crops may result in decreased stands in the successive ratoon crops. Roundup WeatherMax, Roundup PowerMax, and Roundup PowerMax II at 512 fl oz per acre (0.20.4 lbs ae/acre) may be applied 35 weeks prior to harvest. Touch- down HiTech should be applied 36 weeks prior to harvest at 411 fl oz per acre (0.20.4 lbs ae/acre). Touchdown Total and Touchdown CT2 should be applied at 4.813.4 fl oz per acre (0.20.4 lbs ae/acre) 36 weeks prior to harvest. Total canopy coverage is important. Avoid drift of either product to non-targeted cane or crops. It is critical to avoid newly planted or freshly cut cane since inadvertent treatment may result in poor stands. https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/SC015
Cha
(297,275 posts)back to live on Kauai in 2010 I moved back to the West side of the Island and found out Monsanto and its ilk had taken over a lot of the land.. Spraying Roundup All Over the Place.
I got the hell out of there and moved to the East side of the Island.
People do get cancer from poisonous herbicides. I didn't feel like being around that shit.
I've only eaten Organic Food for decades.. real Produce as Nature intended for my Health.
Local Farms if I can get it.
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)to people with nonhogkins lymphoma. Lucky you living on Kauai! - we had 11 degrees last night.
Cha
(297,275 posts)living here.. I know what freezing cold feels like in Upper State NY & Colorado.
My daughter said was 31 degrees in Portland Oregon yesterday which I guess is pretty damn cold for there.
11 degrees.. Brr!
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)I am an actual plant breeder. And to compare what can be done with genetic engineering versus classical plant breeding is preposterously insulting to those using the far more expensive and complex technology.
I have long felt that the engineers should be proud of their sophisticated work. And label it.
That I am not interested in consuming the products of plants with residue levels of glyphosate and or the toxin engineered plants express now produce is my business.
We have long been a nation of ample food choices. Some embrace and are excited by the technology, others wish to avoid it.
All solved by being truthful in the labeling.
To date, most commercialized products of genetic engineering are primarily used in animal feed and oil seed crops. Due to the hundreds of millions of dollars in development costs. There have yet to be many that are directly consumed by people. In time, that could change.
But knowing if the developers used this technology is important to many of us.
So, I welcome it. And find this a decent solution on a national basis.
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)80% of GMO s are engineered to be sprayed with glyphosate herbicides.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)The lawsuits and settlements are pretty expansive.
I remember when everyone thought glyphosate was so safe.
Many people still do. Like the chlorinated hydrocarbon insecticides the often low dermal toxicity fools one into a false sense of security.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)As of December 2021, Monsanto has reached settlement agreements in nearly 100,000 Roundup lawsuits. Monsanto paid approximately $11 billion. Bayer has accomplished this by negotiating block settlement arrangements with plaintiffs lawyers who have large numbers of cases in the litigation.
30,000 Roundup Cases Left
and Counting
Although these settlements account for nearly 80% of all pending Roundup claims, there are still about 26,000 active Roundup lawsuits. Moreover, new Roundup lawsuits continue to get filed on a regular basis. Our Roundup attorneys call from Roundup victims with NHL almost every day.
https://www.lawsuit-information-center.com/roundup-mdl-judge-question-10-billion-settlement-proposal.html
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)No. You first said "80% of GMO's are engineered to be sprayed with glyphosate herbicides" in post #48 (see above)
80% of GMO s are engineered to be sprayed with glyphosate herbicides.
I found that number to be unbelievable and I asked for a link. That's all. But the link you're providing references 80% of CLAIMS which is entirely different than your original assertion of 80% of GMO's ... see the difference?
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)]Over 80% of genetically modified (GM) crops grown worldwide are engineered to tolerate being sprayed with [/b]glyphosate herbicides,1 the best known being Roundup. The herbicide kills all plant life in the field apart from the crop. These crops are known as glyphosate-tolerant or Roundup Ready (RR) crops.
The idea behind such crops was to simplify weed control for farmers. The farmer could douse the entire field with glyphosate herbicide, killing all weeds without killing the crop.
But this is not the way things turned out. Weeds have quickly become resistant to glyphosate herbicide through a process called selection pressure, in which only those weeds that tolerate the herbicide survive to pass on their genes. The resulting epidemic of glyphosate-resistant superweeds has caused huge problems for farmers in countries where glyphosate-tolerant crops are widely planted.
https://detoxproject.org/glyphosate/whats-the-connection-between-glyphosate-and-genetically-modified-crops/
One of the most salient developments in global agriculture in the past 20 years has been the introduction of genetically engineered (GE) crop varieties (15). In the United States in 2015, GE varieties accounted for 94% of planted soybean and 93% of planted maize (6). Adoption of this new technology was rapid: First introduced in 1996, GE soybean varieties embedding the glyphosate-tolerant (GT) trait have exceeded 80% of planted hectares since 2003. The share of planted maize using GE varietiesembedding GT and/or insect-resistant (IR) traitshas exceeded 80% since 2008. GT varieties are complementary inputs with glyphosate, and their adoption has inevitably led to substitution away from other herbicides (7). Conversely, IR varieties can substitute for the use of insecticides, conceivably leading to lower pesticide use. Because pesticides have implications for human health and ecological diversity, factors that affect their use are of considerable policy interest (810). However, the nature and extent of the impact of GE variety adoption on pesticide use remain open questions. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600850
For example, residues of glyphosate, used on 80% of GMO crops and widely used to dry down non-GMO crops before harvest, were detected in 9 of the 13 diets. Eleven of the 13 diets contained GMOs that are grown with large amounts of Roundup.
https://www.gmwatch.org/en/news/archive/2015/16242-laboratory-rat-feeds-contaminated-with-toxic-pesticides-and-gmos
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Oh well. Thanks anyway.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and your accusation that they were is un called for.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)So, here's what I said to YOU after YOU blurted out that I should check Google.
It also makes it easy to debunk wild exaggerations.
Any reasonable person can plainly see that's a simple statement of fact. And then I said:
But I was giving this poster the benefit of the doubt.
Any reasonable person could determine that my request for a link was obviously with regard to the exaggerated 80% claim. (And, in a subsequent reply from that user, it was shown that the 80% figure was with regard to legal claims not the actual percentage of GMO's.)
But... go ahead... please continue.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and of course canola for oil. All engineered to resist herbicide and many also engineered to express bio toxins specific to pest insects that pose risks to them.
80% is an understatement.
Then the poster links the first lawsuit covering the first case against the primary herbicide most of these crops were engineered to resist. Glyphosate or Round-up. Once considered the gold standard for safety, back when the engineering of the crops to resist that herbicide began in the late 80s.
The precise herbicide and precise toxins have changed over time, as new products replace old. As glyphosate resistant weeds became a thing. These crops have been used at a very large scale since the early 90s and ag has changed with their use.
For those of us who are older, the ease of spraying herbicide rather than cultivation has kept many people still able to farm, even into their 80s as one does not have to get down from their tractor to pick out the stones stuck in a cultivator or weeds jamming the blades. It has also allowed for no till ag. A wonderful tool in regenerative ag.
Every technological advancement comes with many up and down sides.
I personally object to vilification of scientists who have worked hard to address climate change, using all tools on hand. But vilifying those for whom basic questions regarding long term environmental effects have not been addressed I find unconscionable.
I wish that we were not being divided by dogma here.
Those who want labeling have every right to ask for it.
We have what, ten years left, if that? Everyone should be grateful for every step made to sequester carbon in the soils. And ag, both conventional using their tools and organic using theirs need to keep doing their important work.
Stop the vilification.
Turn labeling into a badge of pride for those doing the work and for those not wishing to support that approach, fine, let them avoid them by.
Turn your anger towards climate deniers, not any of the multiple ways we are all working on trying to sequester carbon while farming.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)to resist what, and are posting so profusely about the subject, I dont know where to begin.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)But, I'll go the extra mile (just for you) and provide a link that may help.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/TL%3BDR
You're welcome.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)illuminating in any way.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Other than: Goodbye, and have a nice day.
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)She sat in on the landmark Roundup cancer trial against Monsanto/Bauer - Lee Johnson vs Monsanto.. From Wiki :
Johnson v. Monsanto Co.
Johnson v. Monsanto Co. was the first lawsuit to proceed to trial over Monsanto's Roundup herbicide product causing cancer. The lawsuit alleged that the exposure of glyphosate, an active ingredient in the Roundup product, caused Dewayne "Lee" Johnson's non-Hodgkin lymphoma. In a landmark verdict, Monsanto was ordered by a San Francisco jury to pay $289m in punitive damages and compensatory damages.[1][2][3][4][5][6] Monsanto appealed the verdict several times, but lost.[7]
https://careygillam.com/
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)as this case was only the first of many successful suits on the matter.
It is not uncommon for us to find that a once considered safe ag chemical has long term health effects not detected at first.
It is part of the scientific process to deal with and adjust to new information as it emerges.
In fact it is what the Precautionary Principle is meant to address to some extent.
We cannot foresee all unintended consequences upon introduction of a new technology or new chemical or biologically active compound. But we can have better regulatory systems in place to prevent the more catastrophic ones from occurring with more precise pre release testing.
Which does not seem to be a problem at all with the pharmaceutical uses of these modern advances. But has been a long term fissure in the ag uses of these sophisticated systems.
Which ends up insulting all scientists involved.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)Herbicide-tolerant (HT) crops, which tolerate specific broad-spectrum herbicides (such as glyphosate, glufosinate, and dicamba), provide farmers with a broad variety of options for effective weed control. Based on USDA survey data, the percent of domestic soybean acres planted with HT seeds rose from 17 percent in 1997 to 68 percent in 2001, before plateauing at 94 percent in 2014. HT cotton acreage expanded from approximately 10 percent in 1997 to 56 percent in 2001, and reached a high of 95 percent in 2019. Adoption rates for HT corn grew relatively slowly immediately following the commercialization of GE seeds. However, adoption rates increased following the turn of the century. Currently, approximately 89 percent of domestic corn acres are produced with HT seeds.
https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/adoption-of-genetically-engineered-crops-in-the-us/recent-trends-in-ge-adoption.aspx
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Anyone can cherry-pick... but those are very nice ones.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)What crops do you think utilize them. There are only a handful and they occupy primarily the commodity markets.
The USDA is a pretty serious authority of the use of these crops.
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)Where are you coming from? Do you think Monsanto is our friend?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)Emails Reveal Monsanto's Tactics To Defend Glyphosate Against Cancer Fears
Two years ago, a U.N.-sponsored scientific agency declared that the popular weedkiller glyphosate probably causes cancer. That finding from the International Agency for Research on Cancer caused an international uproar. Monsanto, the company that invented glyphosate and still sells most of it, unleashed a fierce campaign to discredit the IARC's conclusions.
New details of the company's counterattack came to light this week. Internal company emails, released as part of a lawsuit against the company, show how Monsanto recruited outside scientists to co-author reports defending the safety of glyphosate, sold under the brand name Roundup. Monsanto executive William Heydens proposed that the company "ghost-write" one paper. In an email, Heydens wrote that "we would be keeping the cost down by us doing the writing and they would just edit & sign their names so to speak." Heydens wrote that this is how Monsanto had "handled" an earlier paper on glyphosate's safety.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/03/15/520250505/emails-reveal-monsantos-tactics-to-defend-glyphosate-against-cancer-fears
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)There are only two genetic additions to the main commodity crops produced.
And another poster shared them in a reply to you down post. From the USDA.
They are either engineered to resist the effects of an herbicide, or they produce their own bio insecticide. Or both of the above.
That is it. In fact, at first, yields were depressed. I have no idea now if they have been stabilized.
All the complex traits ( such as yield, drought tolerance, disease resistance that is robust and not quickly overcome) are not single gene matters. They are multi genetic and it is with genetic analysis and developing marker assisted breeding programs that time can be saved by only growing out the plants which posses enough of the genes that we believe are associated with the traits desired. And which individuals or cohorts to use in crosses or back crosses.
Knowledge of genetics and using that knowledge is not genetic engineering.
It is plant breeding.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)obvious misunderstandings about this topic.
If you have information to share, please do so.
I realize that many people really may not know very much about plant breeding. Or the distinctions between breeding and engineering.
Simply put engineering costs a heck of a lot more to do, which to date has limited the use of the technology to crops from which the enormous investment in resources can be recovered in sales of seeds. So, commodity crops for whom one or a few genes inserted allow for a marketable product. Round up resistant soybeans, corn that is herbicide resistant and produces a bio toxin active against its primary insect pest, that sort of thing.
Plant breeding remains the norm in ag seed development and as greater insight into how genes work together in concert is gained, the complex qualities such as yield and drought tolerance, etc. informs breeders in ways that save time allowing for the development of new varieties more rapidly.
Using the knowledge of genetics is not the same process as genetic engineering. They are separate sciences. Although every crop plant which is has genes inserted (engineered) must then go to the plant breeders to develop decent varieties acceptable to the producers and those utilizing the products of the crops.
I am not alone in these threads in responding to your questions in good faith.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)but to those answers posted abbreviated comments suggesting that the answers were too complicated for you.
So, hoping you get the time to read a bit more on the subject matter.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)godfree2
(38 posts)Achilleaze
(15,543 posts)You have stated that just so.
not fooled
(5,801 posts)There are legitimate concerns about some types of genetic engineering that have not been adequately investigated.
It's not anti science or pseudo science to point this out. It's pertinent to mention that I have a doctorate in molecular genetics and have created many genetically engineered plants (for research purposes to investigate gene function, not to go into the food supply).
cab67
(2,993 posts)My own research doesn't involve agriculture, but I've got a fairly straight-up background in genetics and evolutionary biology. I'm familiar with the peer-reviewed literature on this subject (which is NOT all funded by ag corporations), and the crops have shown to be safe for human consumption.
I'm asking a serious question here - if there's something I've overlooked, I'd like to know.
You might also ask yourself something - assuming you've gotten the COVID vaccine, why would you have done that while being worried about "GM" foods, when the "GM" foods have been far more extensively studied over a much longer period of time?
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:43 AM - Edit history (2)
Many of us in ag who have voiced disagreements with claims of safety in engineered crop plants are comparing the sophistication of the engineering practiced by the pharmaceutical industry with what we have a observed in agricultural systems.
My personal area of concern involved the unknown effect on the soil microbiome when the plants engineered to produce the Bt toxins are grown.
The half life of the Bt toxin produced by the bacteria Bacillus thuringiensis is 24 hours. We still do not know for whom the bacteria produces these toxins, but we do know they are soil bacterium. Whose crystal toxin does exhibit toxic activities towards specific insects. But the engineered bio toxins are still being detected, not deactivated yet, after 6 months.
We do not know how these toxins might effect the organisms within the soil microbiome, or for that matter the mammalian digestive system microbiome.
Engineering prokaryotes for the purpose of manufacturing particular proteins, enzymes or other complex materials within a closed system fermentation which is then isolated and or purified is not the same as engineering complex eukaryotes, such as plants. Then releasing them out to be grown on millions of acres without the prior running an environmental risk assessment.
You cannot believe how hard entomologists had to push to get pest insect areas of refugias planted as a percentage of acreage planted each season to slow the inevitable resistance to the bt toxins that having engineered plants express these toxins that biodegrade so much slower would cause to occur.
I am not alone in being grateful for what the pharmaceutical engineers have accomplished since the 80s to improve our lives ( human insulin being the first incredible product that improved so many millions of people lives, to the amazing vaccines for Covid- thank goodness!!!!!) but have reservations about the way those involved in agricultural crops introduced their products into the environment. The rift it caused between scientists in the US and the rest of the world was not trivial.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and find these broad brush claims of safety un supported.
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)Farmers with big GMO crops are having trouble during the pandemic- not enough herbicides to go around. Good - because herbicides are now in our waterways adding to red tides in our SE states.
Farmer-Rick
(10,175 posts)Because it's not like we've found another planet to live on if the corporations make some seriously dangerous mistakes that escape from the lab.........
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)Countries Where GMOs are Banned
In the European Union, a European Commission rule was passed that gave countries in the European Union the option to opt-out of growing genetically modified crops. According to the Commissions website, nineteen out of the 27 member state countries of the EU have voted to either partially or fully ban GMOs. The Commission reports several countries such as France, Germany, Austria, Greece, Hungary, the Netherlands, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Bulgaria, Poland, Denmark, Malta, Slovenia, Italy and Croatia have chosen a total ban. Wallonia, the French-speaking region of Belgium has opted out, as well as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
In the realm of GMOs in consumer food products, the EU has specific regulations requiring the labeling of GMOs in consumer foods, something the United States will begin to implement as well in January 2022.
Other than mandatory labeling, in the United States, there is no official legislation banning GMOs by the Department of Agriculture or the Food and Drug Administration. However, Humboldt, Mendocino, Trinity, Santa Cruz, Sonoma and Marin counties in California are the counties in the US that have successfully banned GM crops. https://gmowatch.com/where-are-gmos-banned/
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)genetically engineered crop plants, not pharmaceuticals or other industrial scale enzyme manufacturing. Which utilize closed systems.
The issue, as far as I recall, had to do with having an adequate system of regulatory testing prior to release of engineered organisms into the environment at scale that can and do reproduce.
It was more about environmental risk.
To label anyone who wanted to see more thorough risk assessment as an anti vaxxer or anti science is really low.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)All lumped together, anti nuke, anti vax anti gmo.
The vilification is ridiculous and decisive right when we have no time left for such divisions.
And another person posted in another chain in this series wanting to know how anyone who objected to GMO crops could take the Covid vaccine.
As though objecting to environmental release of GMO crops without environmental impact assessments would lump one into the anti vax anti pharmaceutical anti insulin crowd.
It is all ridiculous.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... but nobody has been accused of being "anti-nuke" or "anti-vax" ... any reasonable person can plainly see that.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)Which is why I shared that conclusion.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)DBoon
(22,366 posts)how do we know that Web site will be properly maintained or that it even exists?
NNadir
(33,523 posts)Before Covid, I had the pleasure of attending a lecture by Nobel Laureate Richard Roberts on this topic.
He was the driving force behind getting the signature of 107 Nobel Laureates to fight this latest bit of anti-science ignorance:
Richard J. Roberts, The Nobel Laureates Campaign Supporting GMOs, Journal of Innovation & Knowledge, Volume 3, Issue 2, 2018, Pages 61-65.
Dr. Roberts says it all quite well there.
As in many other areas, the anti-GMO movement consists largely of bourgeois types who hold the impoverished world in contempt while wallowing in their self constructed fear and ignorance.
I applaud Dr. Roberts work in putting his prestige behind fighting general pop ignorance. It's probably not going to work, of course, fear and ignorance are ascendant in these times and fighting them is exhausting and increasingly useless.
Farmer-Rick
(10,175 posts)Because they think it is merely about the science. But it's not.
It's about corporate greed.
Where are the thousands of different seeds that can feed a family on one planting? Or grow large quantities with little to no water, or create big juicy, flavorful fruit with no fertilizer? Where can I get those seeds in different varieties and species?
They are not easily available because then you would only need a few seeds. Plant a few few seeds you're done. But then you wouldn't need to buy anymore seeds. If they concentrate on round up resistance they get a 2 fer. They sell you the seeds that need constant replanting, excess water and fertilizer then sell you the chemicals to keep those delicate plants alive.
GMOs could work but not if you let corporations determine what to develop and sell because they always choose profits over anything else.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)which could be considered slanderous.
There are plenty of good scientists who advocate for what ended up being called the precautionary principle over the entire rapid release into the environment of ag crop seeds engineered to grow despite being hit with herbicides, or which produced their own bio toxins against insect pests.
The scientific communities outside of the US in general where appalled with the inadequate testing and lack of labeling ( at the time - the early to mid 90s) prior to their release. The wound caused by the rush to market is not going to be healed by labeling scientists who wanted more testing in such terms.
NNadir
(33,523 posts)...anti-GMO ignorance?
Are the Nobel Laureates "good scientists" or are the only "good scientists" are those who tell people what they want to hear?
You know what genetic modification is, don't you? It's called "evolution."
When the human genome was fully sequenced, it was recognized that huge stretches of it were actually viral codons inserted during the evolution of human beings.
Another form of genetic modification has been practiced by human populations for thousands of years in a practice called "breeding" as Dr. Roberts points out. The existence of edible corn is one example, the genetic modifications having been carried out by Pre-Columbian Mexicans.
Many fruits available for much of this century are genetically modified, including Pink Grapefruit.
If someone is terrified of Pink Grapefruit, I really, really, really can't help them.
I have zero respect for people who get their asses in a sling over genetic modification. In the case of "Golden Rice" their assertion of stupidity represents a crime against humanity, as it leaves children blind.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)And that all these Nobel Laureates seem to have nothing more than a simplistic level of knowledge about plant breeding is unfortunate, but clearly common. Genetic modification is not genetic engineering.
I have spent 40 years breeding plants.
The assertion that classical breeding is the same as genetic engineering is insulting to both the engineers and the classical plant breeders. Each goes about their work differently. Both should be respected.
Labeling the products of a particularly advanced technology should not be seen as anything other than informative.
That the industry chose to fight labeling every step of the way is rather surprising, as one would think that they would be very proud of their work. It is highly advanced and interesting. Hiding the advancements does nothing to allow the public to decide if they wish to trust the products of the new technology or not.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The labeling movement is very well funded by the organic industry seeking to sow irrational fear into the minds of consumers. The idea its nothing more than informative is pretty far afield from reality. Meanwhile all of those fears and irrational and unfounded predictions about the negative health effects of GMO just never panned out after decades of the reality accurately predicted by the scientific community actually did. The biggest reason nobody is going to click on those QR codes is nobody in significant numbers is buying into the nonsense any more. Its an even larger flop than Californias initiative in labeling everything as carcinogenic regardless of the actual risk. Too much information especially when it doesnt tell the whole story does not serve to enlighten the public.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)to flex such power.
I really get tired of the histrionics of the rhetoric.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)who for 35 years denied the novelty of their techniques to the general public. But espouse them at the patent office.
The techniques of team ag on the matter are the exact ones the far right uses.
Lie, lie a lot and enough. Dispute facts, terrorize anyone who asks a question by torpedoing their career.
Then act as though some tiny group of over worked underfunded farmers are the source of the problem with credibility.
Yes, and this is why I fear the hard right. And am not sure the our Democracy can survive.
Aggressively rude.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)mostly in plant breeding, who lost their positions at land grant universities in the 80s and early 90s for asking questions?
You bet the techniques were honed then and well in use now by the far right. Plus they had Rush Limbaugh, and later Fox.
But the techniques used against good scientists with valid questions back then created the credibility problem the ag industry still suffers unnecessarily from. But that is what created it. Not the few organic farmers who produce non gmo crops.
Now, you all want to act as though people concerned about gmo crops ( unintended environmental consequences) are the same as anti vaxxers.
I dont know what is so hard to distinguish between genetic engineering of microbes used in fermentation under closed systems and releasing engineered crops over millions of acres without any environmental assessment. Back when these seeds were first released and adopted at scale the sort of testing that most scientists outside of the US requested had not been done. Hence the adoption of the worldwide call for the Precautionary Principle.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)How is it that you are making all these comments about the technology but were not around? I was working in the field and watched good breeder after good breeder asked to leave.
It was brutal and it is what caused the initial fallout between the ag scientists within the EU/Japan and the US.
And led to the outlawing of the growing of any GMO crops within most of the countries of Europe and in Japan.
This is not a scientists against anti vaxxer sort of thing. This is a long lasting issue within the ag sciences that has yet to resolve itself.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Nice try. I'm not taking the bait.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)is not conductive to an honest discussion.
Which is what I am attempting to have.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I've had enough. Goodbye.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)I hope that you will take the time to read my posts, as I have spent a lot of time attempting to explain complexities and nuances that it seems that many are unaware of.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It's not about me. Stop. Goodbye.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and posting a more insightful comment to the main poster elicited these responses from you in the form of abbreviations which suggested that they were too long, and that you did not have time to read them. Perhaps I am not understanding the abbreviations, as a I have not seen those before.
Usually, when someone is interested in reading a post, but does not have the time, they post the comment bookmarked .
So it does seem as though my point of view and my personal history is being ridiculed somehow. Which is not conducive to any sort of intelligent discussion.
Which is what I think DU is all about.
I come here to catch up on news and matters of concerns of fellow Democrats.
I live and work in rural red zones. I appreciate and need my DU community.
Which is why I spend time, when I can, explaining as best I can my perspective and points of view.
Which I hope others do when they have the time and can do so.
The current purpose being to help save what seems to be our countrys democracy and our planets health.
By fostering intelligent and respectful dialog, we can learn from each other.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Exhibit A)
We can't let the HFCS label their products as "corn sugar" even though it's 100% accurate
Exhibit B)
We must require GMO products to be labeled as such because it's 100% accurate
In other words allowing a completely voluntary and 100% accurate label must not be allowed because someone might "mistake" HFCS for sugar even though that's exactly what it is.
On the other side of their mouth a completely involuntary label must be used because after all it's 100% accurate and all it does is provide the public with more information (as if information is never used to obfuscate and mislead the public).
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)It remains a minor industry compared to conventional.
The figures provided by the Organic Trade Association also includes all of the products produced from the organic crops.
The farmers products represent a small percentage of the final value.
Labeling of Organic Ag products allowed those of us who spend so much more on organic forms of nitrogen and other important inputs to have our customers support these extra expenses and risks with their purchases.
We did this on our own and despite the conventional ag industry fighting many of us along the way.
Blaming organic farmers for creating the concern over genetically modified crops when the entire scientific communities fell into disputes over it in the 90s pitting the ag scientists in the US against those in the EU and Japan is just another iteration of the seemingly endless assault.
The objection remains concerns with releasing engineered organisms out into the environment without a system in place that would assess the environmental impact. Since once released, they cannot be called back. Which is utterly different from organisms engineered for use in the pharmaceutical industry.
The scientists involved in genetically engineering plants seem to focus on the safety of the insertions and their expression to human/ mammalian health. But without the sort of investigations of soil microbiome impacts, and other non target effects, the organic community steered clear. As did European and Japanese agricultural regulators.
I suppose with conventional ag, the soil microbiome is just not very important. For organic ag, it is critical. As that is the entire reason we begin with organic sources of nitrogen, rather than synthesized. The chemically synthesized forms of nitrogen, although 10x lower in cost, at least, disrupt the soil microbiome.
It was this finding, way back a century ago, which created the impetus to start the organic farming movement in the first place.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Your argument was, and I quote you directly, "The organic industry is too small and powerless"
A $62 billion industry can in no way be described "too small and powerless" regardless of what you are comparing it too. Political influence comes a lot cheaper. Your argument that big organic is "too small and powerless" in influence public policy is utterly ridiculous. There's all sorts of industries smaller that wield immense political power.
Meanwhile the rest of your post has heavily invested in obfuscation. I wasn't talking about microbiomes or environmental impacts or what Europe, Japan, or anywhere else is doing. I was addressing one single piece of legislation in the US about GMO labeling which in what this entire thread is about. If you want to be taken seriously, you should try harder to stay on point. Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is what people do when they have no argument for the subject being discussed.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)which means the organic industry occupies 6% of it. But organic farmers in the US represent less than 1% of acreage produced. In Europe the acreage for organic is approaching 10%.
I have used my time to write a lot of basic information in these responses because many posters seem to be unaware of the differences between plant breeding and genetic engineering used in agricultural crops. And the genetic engineering used in pharmaceutical or industrial applications ( closed systems).
Many others seem to be unaware of the history of the conflict within the ag sector scientists in different parts of the world.
The misinformation is so staggering.
For a long time I ignored all of these false statements.
But look what ignoring the Trumpists and anti vaxx people has gotten us.
While I have the time, I will do my best to educate those who seem to not know about the subject.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)A $62 billion industry isnt too small and powerful to influence public policy. Period. In fact I cant think of a single industry that large who doesnt engage in the effort and at some level enjoy success. As I stated, if you want to believe otherwise thats a very naive point of view.
If you truly want to be taken seriously and educate anyone, then continuing to make such a ridiculous assertion isnt furthering your cause. All you are doing is preaching to the choir which whether you know it or not includes at least one of DUs most prolific anti-vax and anti-science posters. Believe it or not, anti-GMO and anti-vax go together like drunk and disorderly. Theres plenty of intersection.
As far as what genetic engineering does or doesnt mean, thats not part of the conversation I have chosen to participate in, so why you keep repeating it to me is anyones guess. Its utterly irrelevant to anything Ive posted here. Again, just looks like throwing shit against the wall.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and many posters on this thread continue to make claims that all plant breeding is genetic engineering, and other incorrect statements.
I consider anyone throwing falsehoods around as facts to be in the camp of Trump. And anti vaxxers. Because it is telling a lie, loudly, rudely and repeatedly over decades that seems to be the tactic.
Am I correct in thinking that you mean to say that the call for labeling all these decades was/is some scheme of the organic farmers to get more business? From where I sit, this idea does not sync with any reality.
In fact we struggle to exist with all the unwanted contamination from GMO crops, because we are not protected from the effects of the genetic pollution. It is always on us to keep our distance and clean out any handling equipment.
I am sorry that you know so little about my industry. Or about plant breeding. I dont think I can spend much more time trying to educate. I will try to answer any questions when I get more time.
Response to Tumbulu (Reply #57)
Post removed
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)as your accusation appears unhinged.
Plant breeding is indeed an established science.
Someone on a message board does not possess any authority to declare it is not.
In fact every company that uses genetic engineering in their crop development work turns to the plant breeders within their organizations to do the scientific work of getting the new traits expressed in a variety that is feasible to produce at farm scale.
It is inflammatory to make such a statement.
NNadir
(33,523 posts)I'm a scientist. As a scientist, I know perfectly well that being one doesn't qualify any of us to dismiss other scientists, including the tens of thousands who have worked to conduct genetic engineering experiments, mapping genes, determining phenotypical results.
I know many fabulous scientists, and I know many scientists who are marginal, even some who are complete fools.
For the record, earlier in my career, albeit not now, I supported people working on the CRY1 genes, a much studied gene to be sure. The people with whom I worked were highly intelligent, highly trained, highly ethical and hard working.
I do know that plant breeding is a science, but I'm unimpressed with the remarks of a particular plant breeder in this case.
This is not a scientific debate between you and me, as you have not cited a single paper, or for that matter a scientist. I cited one who won the Nobel Prize. Now, one can win the Nobel Prize and be wrong about a particular issue, examples are well known. But to say that being a plant breeder allows you to overrule a commentary on which 107 of our most accomplished scientists, people who may not be genetic engineering experts but certainly know how to think beggars disgust.
If someone says, I have an MD and I know vaccines are dangerous that doesn't mean that physician is right, decent, or even qualified to make the statement. (We have cases of Drs. and nurses who are anti-vax. They're assholes.)
You have not made one technical remark to indicate that you know anything about genetics, not cited a single paper, indicated any instance where genetic engineering of a plant has led to serious negative consequences.
Better than 90% of the US Soybean crop is genetically engineered, which is a good thing, because they are engineered to resist drought, something prevalent because there are individuals who have worked against science to cause climate change. Some of these people are scientists, but that doesn't make them less pernicious.
Most protein drugs, including many drugs that cure cancer, as well as those are made by inserting gene into bacteria, or (most often) Chinese Hamster Ovary cells. They don't need the approval of plant breeders to save human lives.
Excellent plant breeders, include some who engaged in directed breeding by gene insertion developed "Golden Rice."
I'm sorry, but some "plant breeder" coming along to say some vague statement about "good scientists" does not impress me that their status as a plant breeder allows them to denigrate work of first rate scientists, including those at Rockefeller University who developed Golden Rice, or the thousands of scientists, some of whom were plant breeders, who developed drought resistant soybeans.
Got it? No?
I don't care. Ignorance makes me angry when it is used to attack those who are devoting their lives to developing critical and necessary technologies, everything from anti-vax, anti-GMO, to anti-nukes. To my mind they are all equivalent.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:50 PM - Edit history (1)
attacking me personally.
Which you have.
And is unfortunately so typical of the rhetoric from the pro ag crop use of gmo proponents .
All hyped up and broad brushed. Filled with inaccuracies regarding field crop seed production.
Read before you react with vitriol please.
womanofthehills
(8,712 posts)the concentration of β-carotene in GR2E rice is too low to warrant a nutrient content claim.
In an attached memo, FDA notes the beta-carotene content of unmilled Golden Rice GR2E ranged from 0.50-2.35ug/g (FDA 2018a). That is, beta-carotene levels in Golden Rice are both low and variable. This compares to beta-carotene levels measured in non-GMO foods such as fresh carrot (13.8-49.3ug/g; Schaub et al.2017); Asian greens (19.74-66.04 ug/g; Chandra-Hioe et al. 2017); and spinach (111ug/g; Li et al. 2017).
FDA notes the mean value of beta-carotene for GR2E is 1.26ug/g. This is, paradoxically, less beta-carotene than the 1.6ug/g measured for the original iteration of Golden Rice (Ye et al. 2000).
Greenpeace once calculated that such low levels would necessitate a person to eat 3.75 kg of Golden Rice per day to receive an adequate amount of beta-carotene.
People in Bangladesh do not want "Golden Rice" - they have many varieties of sweet potatoes & carrots for beta carotine. They want food diversity and not creepy Golden Rice blowing in the wind and contaminating all their rice.
notKeith
(138 posts)Funny thing - the movie Soylent Green is from 1973 - takes place FAR into the future - 2022. The poster for this film said:
It's the year 2022...
People are still the same.
They'll do anything to get what they need.
And they need SOYLENT GREEN.
Looks like the USDA's been watching old movies.
sl8
(13,786 posts)(There are also some updates to this in the Federal Register)
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/12/21/2018-27283/national-bioengineered-food-disclosure-standard
Effective Date: This rule becomes effective February 19, 2019.
Implementation Date: January 1, 2020.
Extended Implementation Date (for small food manufacturers): January 1, 2021.
Voluntary Compliance Date: Ends on December 31, 2021.
Mandatory Compliance Date: January 1, 2022.
[...]
Outline of the Final Rule
I. Introduction
II. Applicability
A. Definitions
B. Food Subject to Disclosure
C. Bioengineered Food
1. Definition of Bioengineering and Bioengineered Food
2. Conventional Breeding
3. Found in Nature
D. List of Bioengineered Foods
1. List Maintenance and Revision
2. Treatment of Technologies
E. Factors and Conditions
1. Incidental Additives
2. Undetectable Modified Genetic Material
F. Exemptions
1. Food Served in a Restaurant or Similar Retail Food Establishment
2. Very Small Food Manufacturers
3. Threshold
4. Animals Fed With Bioengineered Feed and Their Products
5. Food Certified Under the National Organic Program
G. Severability
III. Disclosure
A. General
1. Responsibility for Disclosure
2. International Impact
3. Appearance of Disclosure
4. Placement of Disclosure
5. How the List of Bioengineered Foods Relates to Disclosure
a. Disclosure Options
b. Use of the May Be Option
B. Text Disclosure
C. Symbol Disclosure
D. Electronic or Digital Link Disclosure
E. Study on Electronic Disclosure and a Text Message Disclosure Option
F. Small Food Manufacturers
1. Definition
2. Telephone Number
3. Internet website
G. Small and Very Small Packages
H. Food Sold in Bulk Containers
I. Voluntary Disclosure
IV. Administrative Provisions
A. Recordkeeping Requirements
B. Enforcement
C. Effective, Implementation, and Compliance Dates
D. Use of Existing Label Inventories
V. Comments on the NPRM
VI. Rulemaking Analyses and Notices
A. Paperwork Reduction Act
1. Comments on Information Collection and Recordkeeping
B. E-Gov
C. Civil Rights Review
D. Executive Orders 12866, 13563, and 13771
E. Final Regulatory Flexibility Analysis
1. Introduction
2. Economic Effects on Small Entities
3. Definition of Small Business
4. Coordination of Definition of Small Food Manufacturers With FDA Definition
5. Exemptions for Very Small Food Manufacturers
6. Costs to Small Entities
7. Summary
F. Executive Order 13175
G. Executive Order 12988
H. Executive Order 13132
[...]
Much more at link.
marie999
(3,334 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 2, 2022, 08:05 PM - Edit history (1)
as I have commented quite a bit upthread.
First of all, the whole gmo crop thing has been a perennial standard fodder flashpoint in some of the DU discussion groups. Where some posters have long been allowed to make comments that would not be accepted in the general discussion.
Typically one is called anti science or their intelligence is questioned, or they are accused of not being a scientist when they bring up any actual scientific questions regarding the potential for unknown environmental impacts of the various components of the use of these newer technologies.
Additionally, sweeping ridiculous statements are repeated endlessly as fact. You can see some of them above in these comments. The main line that is regularly repeated is that classical plant breeding has been utilizing genetic engineering for millennia, so there is nothing new about it.
And anyone saying it is different is then called a Luddite, or something along those lines. But when the technology was first introduced in the early 90s, the innovations were considered so unique that patents were awarded to them along with the plant varieties developed utilizing these technologies. Patents which had heretofore not been generally granted to open pollinated varieties ( these are the commodity crops such as soybeans, cotton, canola). Field corn hybridizations were long protected through hybridization patents, a different system from the PVPs but also issued and administered by the USDA, that allow for farmers to save their own seeds for replanting, once purchased. The unique Patents awarded for the seed varieties developed using the technology of genetic engineering came from the Patent and Trademark Office of the US Department of Commerce. A far more powerful kind of protection than what the USDA grants protection wise.
The change in law created all sorts of changes within the farm communities and an entire segment of the anti GMO sub population only object to the patent part, not the engineering at all. They dont seem to like any seeds being patented or protected.
Which is not what motivates the concerns of many of the people that I know who wanted greater public scrutiny of gmo crops prior to release into the environment at scale. The issue being questioned is the environmental impact of release of organisms engineered which can reproduce in the environment. Which is fundamentally different from organisms engineered and cultured in fermentation vessels and then purified and used in either industry ( enzymes) or medicine ( pharmaceuticals).
I have long believed that the public should know as much about their food as possible. I personally wish that none of us who farm or breed organically should have to be certified. In my opinion the conventional crops producers should have to add all the ag chemicals used ( listed as additives, perhaps?) on their products. But no, we got stuck regulating ourselves and the regulations are cumbersome and irritating and every year I go through my organic inspections I want to stop bothering with certification altogether.
But it is what organic farmers who produce commodity crops must do, as very few people buy wheat or alfalfa at a farmers market. We must have these systems in place to track the products. And the systems continue to evolve.
In closing, I wish to say that I feel that vilification of purpose is not helpful at all.
The pro ag GMO posters are regularly vilifying those of us in organic for being anti science, among many other things. I see some anti GMO groups accusing the genetic engineers of things that I have certainly not found to be true.
I think that if we indeed have less than ten years left to solve the climate crisis from going to the point of absolute no return all of us, then those of us in ag have a huge roll to play in carbon sequestration. And we can and should respect that each of us is going about it in our own ways.
Lets all focus on how we can sequester carbon. Instead of picking on each other.
Labeling should be seen a way for people who consume to make the kind of choices that they wish to make about which sort of system they may find important to support. That is it.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)alwaysinasnit
(5,066 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Kali
(55,011 posts)sometimes a reasonable reply to a giant wall of text, but often just a rude reply to someone taking time to write a detailed post.
alwaysinasnit
(5,066 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)yesterday trying to articulate my concerns with the technology and its history. And answer questions in good faith.
I received many a reply such as this.
Which years ago led me to avoid the science forum.
But this time, I am trying not to allow myself to be intimidated. As I have spent 40 years classically breeding plants and know plenty of other plant breeders. And I also worked in industry and ran the first engineered bio pesticide efficacy trial.
I actually know something about this subject.
And so, I am going to keep trying to write things that I hope will be helpful in understanding what is plant breeding and what is genetic engineering. And how they are indeed distinct from each other.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)Utility patents by the US Department of Commerce.
And why normal sexually reproduced varieties are protected by the Plant Variety Protection under the USDAs system.
It is the novelty of the use of this technology that allowed for this. Novelty is the key distinction between genetic engineering used in crop varieties and normal plant breeding.
There have been some open pollinated classically bred plant varieties that have been awarded utility patents, ( high protein white wheats, which is indeed very novel in the history of wheat) but it is not the norm. And as a result of a new and novel use of a system that the USPTO deems to be an invention.
Which is what genetic engineering is, a technology that was new in the 80s and 90s when all these calls for labeling began.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... that someone is arguing from a position of weakness. Fluoride in water is not dangerous. Seat belts are not dangerous. 5G cell phone towers do not cause disease. Vaccines do not cause autism. GMO foods are not dangerous. Stop pretending like they are. K? They're not.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and I really do not understand. If you are not interested in understanding the distinctions between the technologies why do you keep responding?
I have done my best to help answer your questions. As have others.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)And a quote from the conclusion:
The determination of the EBA was that a process for the production of plants which is based on the sexual crossing of whole genomes and on the subsequent selection of plants, in which human intervention, including the provision of a technical means, serves to enable or assist the performance of the process steps, is excluded from patentability as being essentially biological within the meaning of Article 53(b) EPC. Thus the EBA confirmed that classical plant breeding is excluded from patentability. On the other hand, if a process of sexual crossing and selection includes within it an additional step of a technical nature, which step by itself introduces a trait into the genome or modifies a trait in the genome of the plant produced, so that the introduction or modification of that trait is not the result of the mixing of the genes of the plants chosen for sexual crossing, then that process leaves the realm of the plant breeding and, consequently, is not excluded from patentability. This principle applies only where the additional step is performed within the steps of sexually crossing and selection, independently from the number of repetitions, otherwise the exclusion of sexual crossing and selection processes from patentability could be circumvented simply by adding steps which do not properly pertain to the crossing and selection process, being either upstream steps dealing with the preparation of the plant(s) to be crossed or downstream steps dealing with the further treatment of the plant resulting from the crossing and selection process. The EBA noted that, for the previous or subsequent steps, per se patent protection was available. This will be the case for genetic engineering techniques applied to plants which differ from conventional breeding techniques as they work primarily through the deliberate insertion and/or modification of one or more genes in a plant.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)You made a statement in a post above that implied that you see no is distinction between genetic engineering and plant breeding.
This article explains the legal differences in patent and plant variety protection systems around the world.
This review does what I think to be a good at articulating and defining the distinctions.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)has been called for.
For many of us it has nothing to do with the products consumption. And everything to do with the environmental impacts. For others it is business practice issues. For others, I dont know.
The point is that there are many reasons, other than product safety, that people have had for over three decades now which labeling may address on a minimal level.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)the rest are from plant breeding. And or Al plant breeding includes disease, nematode and insect resistance as well, and has been doing so for a long time.
I am not sure where this animosity towards organic farming comes from, but it seems to be needing some kind of an upgrade.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and should you find the time to read my posts you will find that I have taken a lot of time to explain what is considered by the law to be labeled as genetically engineered.
A few of the posters have made claims that all modern plant varieties are genetically engineered.
Which they are not.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Don't fear the GMO. Don't hate GMO.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)We are lucky our food is genetically modified. Yeah, Im a biochemist. I eat GMO. Its fine.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and for those who wish to avoid herbicide residues in their diets. We should have had the right to avoid them decades ago. Without having to go full on organic.
But very few food crops have actually been engineered. And most of them are grown for animal feed crops or oil production. Feed corn and corn silage, soybeans, and cottonseed for dairy cows and cattle feed lots. Alfalfa for dairies, sugar beets, . Canola for oil. All products that get refined and used as feed or in materials that are more processed.
There are not many genetically engineered plant varieties yet that are for direct human consumption. I think there is a papaya or some other tropical fruit.
There are no major staples of human consumption that have been genetically modified and then grown commercially at scale. Rice, wheat, beans, small grains, all of those currently grown around the world are the result of normal plant breeding. Now the advancement in the science of understanding and identifying genes has allowed for greater precision in plant breeding, and streamlining of which offspring to grow out. But that is not genetic engineering. That is genetic identification, and mapping.
The statement that all plant breeding is genetic engineering is what is the misconception, most often repeated.
The high cost of genetic engineering renders its use towards primarily field crops grown on millions of acres that single gene or a few single gene insertions can create a product whose sales would pay for such an expensive effort.
Complex traits such as yield, flavor, drought tolerance and the like are all multiple gene effects, usually on multiple chromosomes working in concert . Which do not lend themselves to this sort of technology, at this time.
Currently breeders identify the multitude of genes which act together to express more complex expressions and use the tools of this improved knowledge to improve the speed of development of newer varieties. Up until recently, without the capacity to identify the many genes responsible within the major crop species it was primarily observational. Now, much more screening can be done prior to growing out by testing young plants and only growing out the ones possessing the most of the genes that the data suggests are involved in whatever the breeding efforts are focused upon. That is if one has the funding to pay for the genetic analysis. And if enough of the genes involved have been identified. And markers made for them.
Again, primarily that kind of funding is available for the crops occupying significance acreage. Not minor crops.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)Genetic Engineering
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and eliminate the need to grow out individuals which do not posses desired traits.
Genetic knowledge is powerful. But it is not genetic engineering. There is a lot of misinformation about this subject.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)Ive actually done this. Its genetic engineering. Assessing the germ line is like step 1. But thanks for playing.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)may be found at the kind of protection the different systems enjoy.
Plant breeders generally receive PVPs from the USDA for their open pollinated varieties.
The results of genetic engineering in the major commodity crops (plants who reproduce sexually, as the USPTO has a separate system of patents for asexually reproduced plants) deemed to be novel by the US Dept of Commerce are generally awarded Utility Patents. The criteria for receiving a Utility Patent is different. The protections awarded USPTO patents more robust.
Using genetic knowledge to inform breeding and selection processes is not genetic engineering as defined by the the organizations which grant protection of inventions. Unless the process is novel, it falls under the USDA system.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)This is from the discussion towards the end:
The USA is considered to have the most liberal patent law. In 1980, the Supreme Court in Diamond v Chakrabarty (see note 15) had to consider whether a genetically engineered bacterium, capable of breaking down multiple components of crude oil, was patentable. The patent examiner in that case had rejected the application on two grounds: (i) that micro-organisms are products of nature and (ii) that as living things they were not patentable subject matter under the US patent law. The Supreme Court brushed aside these concerns, famously referring to the objective of Congress that the patent law was to include anything under the sun that is made by man as patentable. Accordingly, the Court ruled that the micro-organism qualified as patentable subject matter. However, the Court also noted that the patent claim under consideration was not to a hitherto unknown natural phenomenon, but to a non-naturally occurring manufacture or composition of mattera product of human ingenuity (see note 16). In other words, some human intervention was required to render a biological innovation as patentable.
The European Patent Office focuses upon the necessity for a claimed invention to have a technical character. Rule 27 Implementing Regulations to the Convention on the Grant of European Patents defines patentable biotechnological inventions as those which concern:
(i) biological material which is isolated from its natural environment or produced by means of a technical process even if it previously occurred in nature;
(ii) plants or animals if the technical feasibility of the invention is not confined to a particular plant or animal variety;
(iii) a microbiological or other technical process, or a product obtained by means of such a process other than a plant or animal variety.
This requirement that inventions have a technical character was considered by the EBA in the Broccoli and Tomato cases to be an important matter in its consideration of whether plant breeding methods were patentable. In examining the historical documents which led up to the formulation of the EPC in 1960, the EBA observed that, with the creation of new plant varieties for which a special property right was going to be introduced under the subsequent UPOV Convention in 1960, the legislative architects of the EPC were concerned with excluding from patentability the kind of plant breeding processes which were the conventional methods for the breeding of plant varieties of that time. These conventional methods included, in particular, those based on the sexual crossing of plants deemed suitable for the purpose pursued and on the subsequent selection of the plants having the desired trait(s). These processes were characterized by the fact that the traits of the plants resulting from the crossing were determined by the underlying natural phenomenon of meiosis. This phenomenon determined the genetic make-up of the plants produced, and the breeding result was achieved by the breeder's selection of plants having the desired trait(s). That these were processes to be excluded also followed from the fact that processes changing the genome of plants by technical means such as irradiation were cited as examples of patentable technical processes.
The EBA also referred to the explanations given in the memorandum of the Secretariat of the Committee of Experts for agreeing to the replacement of the words purely biological by the word essentially was deliberate as reflecting the legislative intention that the mere fact of using a technical device in a breeding process should not be sufficient to give the process as such a patentable technical character. The EBA concluded that the provision of a technical step, be it explicit or implicit, in a process which is based on the sexual crossing of plants and on subsequent selection does not cause the claimed invention to escape the exclusion if that technical step only serves to perform the process steps of the breeding process (see note 17).
Conclusion
The determination of the EBA was that a process for the production of plants which is based on the sexual crossing of whole genomes and on the subsequent selection of plants, in which human intervention, including the provision of a technical means, serves to enable or assist the performance of the process steps, is excluded from patentability as being essentially biological within the meaning of Article 53(b) EPC. Thus the EBA confirmed that classical plant breeding is excluded from patentability. On the other hand, if a process of sexual crossing and selection includes within it an additional step of a technical nature, which step by itself introduces a trait into the genome or modifies a trait in the genome of the plant produced, so that the introduction or modification of that trait is not the result of the mixing of the genes of the plants chosen for sexual crossing, then that process leaves the realm of the plant breeding and, consequently, is not excluded from patentability. This principle applies only where the additional step is performed within the steps of sexually crossing and selection, independently from the number of repetitions, otherwise the exclusion of sexual crossing and selection processes from patentability could be circumvented simply by adding steps which do not properly pertain to the crossing and selection process, being either upstream steps dealing with the preparation of the plant(s) to be crossed or downstream steps dealing with the further treatment of the plant resulting from the crossing and selection process. The EBA noted that, for the previous or subsequent steps, per se patent protection was available. This will be the case for genetic engineering techniques applied to plants which differ from conventional breeding techniques as they work primarily through the deliberate insertion and/or modification of one or more genes in a plant.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I think someone has just lost the "high-ground" when it comes to being offended at snark.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)And its misinformation not snark that grinds my gears
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)This entire thread has crossed over the line of absurd and is well into farce territory now.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 4, 2022, 08:32 PM - Edit history (1)
Much of which can be attributed to GMO. Yes, roundup ready corn is turned into silage and your beef is likely fed a ration during finishing. Extrapolation of that to somehow equal harmful effects is ridiculous.
Furthermore no one is eating feed corn. Its awful. So then does beef fed the corn need to be labeled?
Early in my science career I took a lot of agricultural samples. Organic farms were among them. They. Are. Filthy. Large scale farming demands fertilizer and lets just say that some of the manure being spread was not aged well enough. You have excellent metabolic pathways for dealing with pyrethroids. You dont have any for listeria, salmonella, etc.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... which are being religiously ignored. The wall-of-text "rebuttals" and links that are presented in response offer no relevant information.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 5, 2022, 12:07 AM - Edit history (1)
the USDAs organic standards require that all inputs must be composted commercially, or according the USDA standards. The certifiers are real sticklers about this. And have been for the 30 + years I have been certified.
Not sure when you visited these so called organic farms, but your experience appears to be out of date by a few decades at least.
It is fine to support conventional ag without making slanderous comments about organic.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)And many states have their own organic certifications. Ours were regulated by state statutes not federal
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and every certifier has to be accredited by the USDA.
Which is also serious.
Im not sure when it became regulated by the USDA, but around 1997, I think.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)Who may I ask, is going through checking that manures were properly aged???
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 5, 2022, 12:19 AM - Edit history (1)
or the records of the people the compost is purchased from.
Who must also be certified.
And I keep a few hundred sheep and the records must show a 6 month time gap between the sheep eating stubble or grazing a field prior to any food crop production upon it.
And these records are not perfunctory.
Organic certification is serious, and this, I suspect is where all the gripes about big organic come from. Because it is all a lot of extra bookkeeping and note keeping work.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)who grow the genetically engineered crops staunch Republicans or Libertarians.
The very Republicans who around here are all vociferously anti vax. Two of these Republican neighbors are also a proud and public ( Facebook posts going on and on) insurrectionists.
The organic farmers in my area lobbied to get all their workers ( who they also supply health insurance to and pay on average $15/hr, well over minimum wage here) vaccinated in February, right after health care workers in our county as essential employees, since they all produce and sell food wholesale and retail. In my County we are talking about hundreds of workers, and the County even held the vaccination clinics and booster clinics right at the farms. This is a big deal for our communities.
I am a proud Democrat and when I go into buy farm supplies it is only the other organic farmers who are wearing masks. Despite it being a county and state ordinance to wear them. The conventional pro gmo guys refuse. They have their rights!
I find myself so very frightened about the future of our democracy. Perhaps it is because there are so many insurrectionists around where I live and these anti vax types are so aggressive. I come to DU for solidarity.
Perhaps you dont know how rare it is to find Democrats in rural areas. But it is. And as you may suspect, they set a good example to those around them.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)I dont need anyone explaining to me what a Democrat should be. I grew up poor, lived through strikes, explosions, and lost him to black lung. Im glad you like growing organic beans or whatever else, but Im not buying it.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)That organic farms in California organized for their workers to be vaccinated as essential workers and provide health insurance? That most of the people who farm organically in my area are Democrats?
That rural Democrats feel under assault by the far right?
cinematicdiversions
(1,969 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)who do not allow the few engineered crops to be grown there are lumped in with antivaxx ers too?
The issue is the release into the environment of organisms that will reproduce without a system in place to evaluate unintended consequences to the environment.
These objections are not anti vax. It is the Precautionary Principle in action.
It is an environmental issue for plenty of us. But lost long ago in the US.
I usually give up bothering responding to the topic, the rhetoric from the pro ag gmo crowd so vitriolic. But this time I decided to not ignore.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)That is not essentially GMO.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)There are very few crops which have been genetically engineered in production.
But they are commodity crops grown on millions of acres. So acreage wise they take up the lions share.
The main crops which have been genetically engineered are : field corns, cotton, soybeans, canola, alfalfa, sugar beets.
There are some minor crops that I do not keep up on.
So, the new labeling will be mainly be found on the processed foods which utilize the products of these crops.