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LetMyPeopleVote

(145,492 posts)
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:29 PM Feb 2022

Archives asks Justice Department to investigate Trump's handling of White House records

Source: Washington Post

The National Archives and Records Administration has asked the Justice Department to examine Donald Trump’s handling of White House records, sparking discussions among federal law enforcement officials about whether they should investigate the former president for a possible crime, according to two people familiar with the matter.

The referral from the National Archives came amid recent revelations that officials recovered 15 boxes of materials from the former president’s Mar-a-Lago residence that weren’t handed back in to the government as they should have been, and that Trump had turned over other White House records that had been torn up. Archives officials suspected Trump had possibly violated laws concerning the handling of government documents — including those that might be considered classified — and reached out to the Justice Department, the people familiar with the matter said.

The people spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a politically sensitive request. The two people said the discussions about the matter remained preliminary, and it was not yet clear whether the Justice Department would investigate. The department also might be interested in merely reclaiming classified materials. A Justice Department spokesman declined to comment.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/09/trump-archives-justice-department/

60 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Archives asks Justice Department to investigate Trump's handling of White House records (Original Post) LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 OP
Lock. Him. Up. mobeau69 Feb 2022 #1
Enough with the investigations. Lock him up. Ray Bruns Feb 2022 #18
As much as we loathe the man, he gets the very same jury trial any other accused person does Hekate Feb 2022 #34
Very true Rebl2 Feb 2022 #38
You're right.... COL Mustard Feb 2022 #45
Well, okay--we give him a fair trial. lastlib Feb 2022 #46
This guy has been under investigation for decades. Ray Bruns Feb 2022 #55
We can't end investigations. onecaliberal Feb 2022 #43
Exactly DENVERPOPS Feb 2022 #48
Countdown to "witch hunt" and "trying to cancel him" tishaLA Feb 2022 #2
Peter Strzok indicated recently leftieNanner Feb 2022 #3
I am more than sure DENVERPOPS Feb 2022 #49
Honestly, I don't think the DC establishment has the stomach to prosecute a former Pres. Thomas Hurt Feb 2022 #4
There are some interesting penalties for violation of the Presidential Records Act LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 #5
...which are completely unconstitutional. brooklynite Feb 2022 #7
Time will tell LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 #11
Notice Cawthorn's military-style Hitler Youth costume poli-junkie Feb 2022 #21
can you be more specific? nt orleans Feb 2022 #13
The US Constitution specifies eligibility for Presidential candidates brooklynite Feb 2022 #16
thank you nt orleans Feb 2022 #23
Actually, the Constitution only makes certain classes ineligible HariSeldon Feb 2022 #24
It does not state that other limitations can be imposed by Statute. brooklynite Feb 2022 #27
You are wrong in your anaylsis LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 #50
No, you are wrong in yours... brooklynite Feb 2022 #51
Again, you are WRONG yet again LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author brooklynite Feb 2022 #17
that means search warrants!! Grasswire2 Feb 2022 #6
And Discovery will make an appearance... I'm lovin' it! nt abqtommy Feb 2022 #42
This should not be handled with kid gloves. Destruction and Theft Emile Feb 2022 #8
And as Jimmy Kimmel noticed ... ificandream Feb 2022 #9
That is one of the remedies LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 #14
When. . . NQAS Feb 2022 #10
This makes me happy JustAnotherGen Feb 2022 #12
This also makes me smile LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 #15
They should invite JustAnotherGen Feb 2022 #19
Wouldn't that be a site sdfernando Feb 2022 #30
For this thread LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 #52
WTF? They need a "discussion" over investigating Trump but Hillary and her emails are ok? cstanleytech Feb 2022 #20
Seriously. This maybe they will-maybe they won't worry isn't going to help. All I can ancianita Feb 2022 #22
I would not want to be this Justice Department. A tightrope between prosecuting a blatant LoisB Feb 2022 #25
The creep is going to be buried in investigations. Joinfortmill Feb 2022 #26
Lock him up and throw away the pee texasleo Feb 2022 #28
Ruh roh. spudspud Feb 2022 #29
One count per incident of documents destroyed Miguelito Loveless Feb 2022 #31
Asking the DOJ to investigate means to sweep it under the rug. PSPS Feb 2022 #32
So far it seems that way JohnSJ Feb 2022 #33
Yes, I'm sure the DOJ will get right on it. hamsterjill Feb 2022 #57
GQP: Archiving is a radical socialist Democrat Party attempt to embarrass President LastLiberal in PalmSprings Feb 2022 #35
Lock. The. Fucking. Malignant. Asshole ...UP!!! NewHendoLib Feb 2022 #36
This & your follow up posts here are making me smile, bigly Hekate Feb 2022 #37
Not just docs Traildogbob Feb 2022 #39
Thanks to Nixon DownriverDem Feb 2022 #40
Oh! Goody-goody!!! fierywoman Feb 2022 #41
I was under the assumption that there's no real enforcement mechanism in the law? NullTuples Feb 2022 #44
I watched a segment last night. hamsterjill Feb 2022 #58
There's no enforcement mechanism to the presidential documents law NullTuples Feb 2022 #60
"Trump...violated laws concerning the handling of government documents -- including...classified..." LudwigPastorius Feb 2022 #47
House Oversight asks Archives for information about Trump's handling of White House records LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2022 #54
This message was self-deleted by its author Yonnie3 Feb 2022 #56
Where is Merrick Garland BlueIdaho Feb 2022 #59

Hekate

(90,779 posts)
34. As much as we loathe the man, he gets the very same jury trial any other accused person does
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 05:41 PM
Feb 2022

“I seen him! He done it!” is not sufficient in a constitutional republic.


lastlib

(23,272 posts)
46. Well, okay--we give him a fair trial.
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 07:25 PM
Feb 2022

THEN we can hang his fat ass! (In his case, a trial isn't fair if it doesn't result in a conviction.....IMHO)

Ray Bruns

(4,110 posts)
55. This guy has been under investigation for decades.
Thu Feb 10, 2022, 01:34 PM
Feb 2022

Just tired of him dancing through the raindrops while some schmuck selling loose cigarettes gets murdered by the police.

DENVERPOPS

(8,844 posts)
48. Exactly
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 07:40 PM
Feb 2022

The supply of investigators at Justice has to be running pretty thin by now...............

The thing yesterday with Trump telling his cult followers to get violent and then elect him and he will pardon them should be enough, all by itself........Insurrection, Sedition, Treason, put him in a cell with an orange jump suit while he waits for trial.......and feed him green bologna lunchmeat like his favorite wardens like to do to the occupants of their jails.....

leftieNanner

(15,144 posts)
3. Peter Strzok indicated recently
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:34 PM
Feb 2022

That if Trump took classified materials to Maraloco, that it's a crime of a different stripe. Having classified documents in your possession when you are not permitted to, is a serious felony.

Here's hoping.

DENVERPOPS

(8,844 posts)
49. I am more than sure
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 07:42 PM
Feb 2022

that he and Jared pilfered countless Top Secret Papers, and intelligence information for sale after his occupation of the WH.....

Thomas Hurt

(13,903 posts)
4. Honestly, I don't think the DC establishment has the stomach to prosecute a former Pres.
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:36 PM
Feb 2022

We are just going to proceed with the status quo of protecting the rich and powerful in this country.

Least they could do is prosecute the Pig and get him banned from holding office if convicted.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,492 posts)
11. Time will tell
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:44 PM
Feb 2022

You do realize that there is no constitutional right to hold office and there are statutes that restrict this right. I am following and enjoying the efforts to ban that Cawthorn idiot form the ballot.




North Carolina may well ban Cawthorn from the 2022 ballot and I suspect that such a ruling will hold up. Cawthorn's main response so far has been to promise violence which is really sad.

Here this penalty provision of the Presidential Records Act should be tested and TFG is a good test case. I remember the Nixon years and follow the impeachment/Watergate saga closely. The penalty provisions in the Presidential Records Act were crafted to deal with assholes like Nixon and TFG.

BTW, it appears that these provisions are going to be tested in that there is a referral from the Archives to the DOJ

brooklynite

(94,713 posts)
16. The US Constitution specifies eligibility for Presidential candidates
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:52 PM
Feb 2022
Article II Section 1: No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.


Amendment XIV Section 3: Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


That's it. If you attempted to apply this law to Trump, he'd take it to the Supreme Court and would win by more than the 6-3 conservative margin

HariSeldon

(455 posts)
24. Actually, the Constitution only makes certain classes ineligible
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 05:10 PM
Feb 2022

It does not state that additional limitations on eligibility to be president cannot be created by law.

brooklynite

(94,713 posts)
27. It does not state that other limitations can be imposed by Statute.
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 05:21 PM
Feb 2022

By your logic, Congress could pass a law that no woman could be President. The Court would never uphold that.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,492 posts)
50. You are wrong in your anaylsis
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 09:54 PM
Feb 2022

Here is an article that lists a number of US Code provisions that apply. I love the title of this article and it covers three different statutes that are used during presidential transitions. Set forth below is the applicable statute.

Destroying Federal Documents During a Presidential Transition Is a Federal Crime
https://www.justsecurity.org/73265/destroying-federal-documents-during-a-presidential-transition-is-a-federal-crime/

Presidential records and federal records belong to the United States government. Only personal records can be taken and retained after leaving government service. Under the Presidential Records Act (PRA), these are (1) materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election and to the election of a particular individual or individuals to federal, state, or local office that “have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President;” and (2) materials relating to private political associations. 44 U.S.C. §2201. Calendars that contain official appointments and other records containing both official and political material are the property of the government and must be retained. It is important to understand special rules that apply under the PRA to most of the Executive Office of the President (EOP), including the White House Office, Office of the Vice President, the entire National Security Council staff, and other EOP components… Under the PRA, a small category of materials in your office could count as “personal” … the print out of the photo you took with your mom in front of the West Wing during her tour is probably a personal record that can come with you in your box along with your coffee mug. But everything related to doing your job, in essence, is a presidential record that belongs to the government, no matter what format it is in or how it is stored.,,,,

18 U.S. Code §2071. Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally provides:

(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States….


Here is the DOJ's explanation of this statute https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1663-protection-government-property-protection-public-records-and

There are several important aspects to this offense. First, it is a specific intent crime. This means that the defendant must act intentionally with knowledge that he is violating the law. See United States v. Simpson, 460 F.2d 515, 518 (9th Cir. 1972). Moreover, one case has suggested that this specific intent requires that the defendant know that the documents involved are public records. See United States v. DeGroat, 30 F. 764, 765 (E.D.Mich. 1887).

The acts proscribed by this section are defined broadly. Essentially three types of conduct are prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2071(a). These are: (1) concealment, removal, mutilation, obliteration or destruction of records; (2) any attempt to commit these proscribed acts; and (3) carrying away any record with the intent to conceal, remove, mutilate or destroy it. It should be noted that all of these acts involve either misappropriation of or damage to public records. This has led one court to conclude that the mere photocopying of these records does not violate 18 U.S.C. § 2071. See United States v. Rosner, 352 F. Supp. 915, 919-22 (S.D.N.Y. 1972).

Subsection (b) of 18 U.S.C. § 2071 contains a similar prohibition specifically directed at custodians of public records. Any custodian of a public record who "willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys (any record) shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States." While the range of acts proscribed by this subsection is somewhat narrower than subsection (a), it does provide the additional penalty of forfeiture of position with the United States.

This statute applies to TFG and if nothing else the fine and criminal penalties would be amusing.

brooklynite

(94,713 posts)
51. No, you are wrong in yours...
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 09:59 PM
Feb 2022

Yes there are statutes which bar someone from running for Federal Office. And none of them have been tested in Court. The Constitution does not limit one's ability to run for or serve as President other than the points I raised. If the codes you specified were applied to Trump, he would, as I said before take it to Court on the grounds of being unconstitutional.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,492 posts)
53. Again, you are WRONG yet again
Thu Feb 10, 2022, 12:46 PM
Feb 2022

Again, laypersons are really amusing when they attempt and fail to understand simple legal concepts. This law has not been tested in court yet, but that would not stop this law from being used as part of a larger case against TFG.

Personally, I am more interested in the DOJ seeking prison time against TFG if the DOJ pursues this matter. Three years is a significant penalty for someone like TFG. Such charge would likely be brought in connection with a conspiracy charge. Destruction of evidence would booster such a complaint. I agree with Glenn Kirshner on this https://www.rawstory.com/trump-2656618450/?cx_testId=6&cx_testVariant=cx_undefined&cx_artPos=1&cx_experienceId=EXC93HV4HK4I#cxrecs_s

During an appearance on MSNBC, former federal prosecutor Glenn Kirschner said, "the National Archives story is actually a danger zone for Trump in a couple of different ways. Even though the Presidential Records Act is largely toothless, there is a closely related federal statute, 18 U.S. Code § 2071, which provides for criminal penalties for the concealment, removal or mutilation of federal records."

“Not only is that a 3-year federal felony, but importantly anybody who is convicted under that statute is prohibited from holding federal office,” Kirschner added.




If nothing else, if TFG runs again, Joe will have fun using this against TFG. Section 2701 is the same law that TFG claimed would disqualify Hillary




I also like Littman's other suggestion

Response to orleans (Reply #13)

Emile

(22,886 posts)
8. This should not be handled with kid gloves. Destruction and Theft
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:40 PM
Feb 2022

of government property is against federal law!

Destruction Of Government Property -- 18 U.S.C. § 1361. Section 1361 protects "any property" of the United States or an agency or department thereof, or any property being manufactured or constructed for the United States or an agency or department thereof, from willful depredation or attempted depredation.Jan 17, 2020

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,492 posts)
14. That is one of the remedies
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:46 PM
Feb 2022



Here is the link to the report mentioned by Professor Beschloss
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46129/4

In the event of potentially unlawful removal or destruction of government records, Title 44,
Section 3106, of the U.S. Code requires the head of a federal agency to notify the Archivist, who
initiates action with the Attorney General for the possible recovery of such records.22 The
Archivist is not authorized to independently investigate removal or recover records.23
_________________
22 Under Title 18, Section 2071, of the U.S. Code, anyone found guilty of “willfully and unlawfully” concealing, removing, mutilating, obliterating, destroying, or attempting to do any such action against a record can be fined and imprisoned for up to three years. In addition to fines and possible imprisonment, anyone holding federal office who is convicted of this crime can lose his or her position and be disqualified from holding federal office in the future

NQAS

(10,749 posts)
10. When. . .
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:41 PM
Feb 2022

do we get to see the actual images of the love letters from Kim Jong un and the translations?

JustAnotherGen

(31,869 posts)
12. This makes me happy
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 04:44 PM
Feb 2022

After all that bullshit about 'her emails' - this is worth an investigation.

Bring 45's ass into the House, and have that thing sit through 12 hours of questioning.

ancianita

(36,132 posts)
22. Seriously. This maybe they will-maybe they won't worry isn't going to help. All I can
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 05:00 PM
Feb 2022

think is that the DOJ is overworked, undermanned and underfunded, because they're drowning in federal criminality.

LoisB

(7,223 posts)
25. I would not want to be this Justice Department. A tightrope between prosecuting a blatant
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 05:11 PM
Feb 2022

criminal who happens to have been President and protecting the Office of the Presidency from future retribution by the ReThugs if they regain Congressional power. They will go after Joe and any future Democratic president with a vengeance. At least, that's how I see it.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,470 posts)
31. One count per incident of documents destroyed
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 05:28 PM
Feb 2022

Up to three years per count if memory serves. Charge him, the case is open and shut.

hamsterjill

(15,223 posts)
57. Yes, I'm sure the DOJ will get right on it.
Thu Feb 10, 2022, 04:49 PM
Feb 2022

Behind all of the other investigations they are supposedly doing.

Trump is a criminal many times over. Why has he not been charged?

35. GQP: Archiving is a radical socialist Democrat Party attempt to embarrass President
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 05:42 PM
Feb 2022

T**** an destroy his legacy. Other presidents have done it(name one). The documents were his to do with he liked while he was in office. (wasn't this already answered in the negative by the SCOTUS?) He need these documents for his presidential library (prison libraries are pretty small).

Traildogbob

(8,791 posts)
39. Not just docs
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 05:54 PM
Feb 2022

Thom Hartmann noted that he and Melania took other items, State gifts etc. out of our house. Many boxes of White House property. But our amazing media, just like their unwillingness to call his lies, lies, are soft speaking about the outright THEFT of these idiots. Saying things like borrowed, misplaced, accidentally packed up. These people are downright white trash lying thieves, as Jesus would do.

NullTuples

(6,017 posts)
44. I was under the assumption that there's no real enforcement mechanism in the law?
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 06:43 PM
Feb 2022

If so this is theater, and a distraction.

hamsterjill

(15,223 posts)
58. I watched a segment last night.
Thu Feb 10, 2022, 04:52 PM
Feb 2022

The “intent” has to be proven. Intent to deceive, defraud or cover up evidence. At least that was the opinion of the pundits.

NullTuples

(6,017 posts)
60. There's no enforcement mechanism to the presidential documents law
Fri Feb 11, 2022, 11:06 PM
Feb 2022

However, if he took highly classified documents home with him after he left the White House, that's a whole different law altogether.

It'll be interesting to see if he gets treated the same as say Chelsea Manning (exposed war crimes) or Reality Winner (exposed Russian interference that helped Trump).

It's all up to AG Garland now. Let's see what he chooses to do.

LudwigPastorius

(9,167 posts)
47. "Trump...violated laws concerning the handling of government documents -- including...classified..."
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 07:27 PM
Feb 2022

Trump's probably beefing up his "legal defense fund" by selling NATO military secrets to Putin.

Naaah...who am I kidding? Trump always stiffs his lawyers.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,492 posts)
54. House Oversight asks Archives for information about Trump's handling of White House records
Thu Feb 10, 2022, 12:59 PM
Feb 2022

We need to have six different Congressional committees to investigate this matter just like the GOP did for Benghazi. I am glad that one House committee is reviewing this matter




The chairwoman of the House Oversight Committee is moving quickly on her promise to investigate Donald Trump’s handling of White House records on the heels of revelations that 15 boxes of materials were recovered from the former president’s Mar-a-Lago residence.

In a letter sent Wednesday to Archivist of the United States David S. Ferriero, Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.) requested information “to examine the extent and impact” of Trump’s apparent violations of the Presidential Records Act, which requires the preservation of memos, letters, notes, emails, faxes and other written communications related to a president’s official duties.

The letter, provided to The Washington Post, asked for a detailed inventory of the contents of the recovered boxes, a description of records that Trump “destroyed or attempted to destroy” without the approval of the Archives, and whether the contents are undergoing a review to determine if they contain classified information. Maloney also asked whether "the Archivist has notified the Attorney General that former President Trump removed presidential records from the White House.”

“Removing or concealing government records is a criminal offense punishable by up to three years in prison,” Maloney wrote. “Former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger, for example, was prosecuted for taking classified documents from NARA. Former President Trump and his senior advisors must also be held accountable for any violations of the law.”

Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Original post)

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