US dismisses Polish plan to provide fighter jets to be sent to Ukraine
Source: The Guardian
Poland has said it will hand over its MiG-29 fighter jets to the US, in a move which appeared to take Washington by surprise and was quickly dismissed by the Pentagon.
...
But the Pentagon appeared to reject the proposal, saying it was not tenable.
In a statement, the US Department of Defense said the prospect of the jets departing from the base to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire Nato alliance.
We will continue to consult with Poland and our other Nato allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Polands proposal is a tenable one, John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said.
Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/poland-mig-29-jets-us-ukraine
Back to the drawing board.
PortTack
(32,606 posts)blue-wave
(4,317 posts)No one wants to take responsibility for delivering them. But the deal is still being worked on. I wouldn't count it out.
Roy Rolling
(6,856 posts)During wartime the U.S. government tells the world what it wants them to believe.
This Poland-MIG statement says the U.S. is reluctant to get involved.
Meanwhile, the jet transfer begins.
Tomconroy
(7,611 posts)OLDMDDEM
(1,553 posts)Why couldn't Ukraine pilots go to Germany, or Poland, to get the jets?
Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)Abnredleg
(663 posts)The concern is that providing aircraft to Ukraine would be a major provocation. Anyway, Russia is relying on its ground forces, not its airforce, and MIG 29s would be of very little value since they are designed for air-to-air, not ground attack.
wnylib
(21,146 posts)planes.
I am getting disgusted with the BS back and forth about planes.
Just get the damned things to Ukraine where they are badly needed.
Providing these planes is no more an escalation than the anti aircraft and anti tank weapons that we have provided.
One concern is flying them from a NATO nation to Ukraine.
So, fly them to the border and let Ukrainians "steal" them by towing them away.
Abnredleg
(663 posts)Providing aircraft is a provocative act that will have very limited effect on the Russian offensive.
wnylib
(21,146 posts)Providing the planes is not the same as having US or NATO pilots giving no fly zone coverage. The Polish Mig 29s are Russian made planes. Would they even be distinguishable from Russian planes in the air? Doesn't Ukraine already have some? So just give them a few more.
And they definitely would help Ukraine protect its cities and nuclear sites from being bombed.
Abnredleg
(663 posts)wnylib
(21,146 posts)but I could not get the link to post here.
In that thread, Ted Lieu and Adam Kinzinger share my view. They're not generals and I would normally go along with the generals, but not in this case. Of course, my opinion won't count with them. They will decide on their own. But I think they are making a mistake.
Abnredleg
(663 posts)But this is a ground war in which the Russian AF is playing an insignificant role. We are providing the Ukrainians with what they need, which is antitank weapons and actionable intelligence.
Pluvious
(4,278 posts)But they require significant support to deploy into a combat theater
Abnredleg
(663 posts)against modern air defense systems. Only F35s and F22s can. The Ukraine AF is still flying but in a very constrained manner. Theres a very good reason that they havent attacked that 40km convoy we keep hearing about.
Pluvious
(4,278 posts)Are the Jewish Space Lasers !
Abnredleg
(663 posts)To deal with the Russian Navy.
bluewater
(5,376 posts)Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)It was really surprising to read the MiGs would be taken to a USAF base.
This did not seem at all consistent with US policy and would be a clear escalation.
bluewater
(5,376 posts)Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)So Poland cannot put them there.
Putin is laughing his head off. The West is afraid of him.
bluewater
(5,376 posts)huh?
Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)They MiGs are Polish planes, and a gift from Poland.
So why take them to a USAF base in Germany?
I don't disagree with you however.
I am sick of everyone cowering.
bluewater
(5,376 posts)The fiction that it would be Poland acting alone, which everyone knows isn't true since the US publicly stated they would swap F-16's to Poland in exchange, is something Poland got nervous about.
Obviously Poland is afraid to give the planes directly to Ukraine, but can you blame them?
Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)I am joking here.
Looks like the US is afraid to give the planes to Poland too. Germany doesn't want them to fly out of their country.
The Non NATO countries for sure don't want to take the risk.
I agree it was a NATO collaborative effort.
But everyone is too afraid of Putin to actually give the planes to the Ukraine.
I agree WTF.
Evolve Dammit
(16,632 posts)So maybe the rest of the world should get their heads out of their asses and help them with arms??
Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)I think Putin put his nuclear subs on high alert, they are sitting near DC and in the English Channel pointed right at London, Paris, Berlin. Missiles sitting in the tube, ready to go.
No time for our antimissile systems to work. Putin has a good antimissile system over Moscow and he is in a secure bunker.
I understand NATO doesn't want to fight, but all this ridiculous maneuvering about the planes says they are quite worried.
Evolve Dammit
(16,632 posts)Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)They hoped he would leave them alone and see them as no threat.
But the fact they are a democracy is a threat to Putin. And they would not give that up.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)give the Kremlin 30 minutes to evacuate everyone from the premises, then drop a gravity bomb on it, destroying the pretty towers, and long-standing symbol of the Russian czars.
Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)It is said that Putin has a strong antimissile system over Moscow.
I think we would have to hit Moscow pretty hard.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)Bev54
(9,963 posts)Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)Right the US military has an outrageous military budget and cannot figure this out.
I jokingly said upthread we should find a random old civilian barge and float the planes to Ukraine.
I agree, this is a WTF moment.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)is this all just a joke, a way for the MIC to continue sucking funds?
Irish_Dem
(45,654 posts)The strongest military in the world and Putin has us paralyzed.
Ha right, the MIC steals all the money and we really only have a few old planes from sitting in a random hanger.
Putin is no doubt very happy that his threats have worked.
jmowreader
(50,453 posts)If a NATO member sends this kind of equipment to fight Russia, Mr. KGB is going to decide NATO is fighting him and begin attacking NATO countries in retaliation.
Haggis 4 Breakfast
(1,452 posts)If he thinks he can launch nukes at NATO allies, he is suicidal.
I am physically ill at all of this pussyfooting around. We WILL get drawn into this. It is only a matter of time. Ukraine is not the end of Putin's insatiable ego. He WANTS the Baltic states as well (Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia) because they sit too close to Kaliningrad and Western ports. He will not stop with Ukraine. Did we learn NOTHING from Hitler ?
And as far as the "not tenable" comment, what is NOT tenable is two million Ukrainians fleeing their nation. Women and children being put on anything leaving the country, while any male over the age of 16 is staying to fight. Some parents have placed their children on transportation ALONE, with notes in their pockets with information about how to reach their families still in Ukraine.
Soon food and water and medical supplies will run out. Already there are thousands without electricity in the Ukrainian winter. Anyone remember Texas last year when Americans froze to death ? Putin is NOT honoring humanitarian corridors. His troops have shot people leaving. An entire family lay dead on the front page of the NYTimes.
Has our leadership forgotten 9/11 ? Well, EVERY DAY is 9/11 in Ukraine. Entire cities have been reduced to rubble. Russian troops are beating and killing people.
Now, Putin is bringing in SYRIANS to fight, because Russian troops do not want to kill Ukrainians. Even Belarus has withdrawn forces. Syrians will have no hesitation in killing Ukrainians. Especially if they are paid well.
Call the White House (202) 456-1111. Tell them that we cannot wait until there is NO UKRAINE. Biden is surrounded by an insular group of people more concerned with the midterms, oil prices and GOP criticisms than they are about Ukraine.
Anyone here play chess ? We MUST think ahead. America MUST respond now before the options dwindle.
PUTIN MUST BE STOPPED.
Ray Bruns
(4,023 posts)and they are a part of NATO.
We need to get those planes to Ukraine and get a Lend Lease 2 act.
sprinkleeninow
(20,136 posts)Crowman2009
(2,478 posts)As I recall, a rather old Turkish F-16 shot down a Russian fighter jet recently over Syria.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,158 posts)While there are some small differences between Polish and Ukrainian Mig-29s, it's not much, and the idea was they'd be able to fly them in combat quickly. Training from scratch would take too long.
Deminpenn
(15,246 posts)US sold them F-16s awhile ago.
bluewater
(5,376 posts)Deminpenn
(15,246 posts)Sorry to be unclear.
Ukraine is flying MiGs and Sukhois.
cilla4progress
(24,589 posts)Pentagon "PR"?
yaesu
(8,020 posts)a suicidal nutjob with nukes takes special care.
Sapient Donkey
(1,568 posts)They don't.
I am curious what differentiates delivery of these planes vs delivery of ATGM and MANPADS. Is it just the ability to have one be more discrete than the other?
bluewater
(5,376 posts)I think yes, and the fact that Poland borders Ukraine, unlike the US and the UK when they send stingers and anti-tank weapons.
Lonestarblue
(9,880 posts)This looks like problems keep being invented instead of solutions. Alexander Vindman was on Nicole Wallaces show this afternoon, and I just wanted to cheer him. He commented that the US has a paternalistic attitude toward Ukraine and assumes that cant learn how to use some more sophisticated weapons. He made the point that they could be trained on them quickly to do the basics, which is to shoot down planes and destroy missile batteries, which is what they need now, and that they would learn the finer points as they used them more. He also mentioned bureaucracy as an issue. He mentioned at least six different weapons that would allow Ukraine to fight Russias air war, and none of them require boots on the ground for THE US or NATO.
The other interesting comment Vindman made was that the US and allies assumed that once Russia invaded Ukraine would fall fairly quickly and that it was not worth starting a war. They were proved wrong. If the US would provide the weapons he mentioned, some unmanned, to Ukraine he said they could win this war. This war needs to be won because there is no better time to defeat Putin and force his army back to Russia.
bluewater
(5,376 posts)James48
(4,416 posts)That would be seen by Putin as an act of war. (He says).
So they cant fky directly out of Poland. Poland was offering what if we give them to the US at Germany, and then somebody else comes and gets them and flies them elsewhere. .
It was an incomplete proposal.
Lonestarblue
(9,880 posts)Moldova is not a member of NATO. Poland could fly the planes there for Ukrainian pilots to pick up unless Moldova refuses for fear of Putin. They probably think theyre next on his list of countries to acquire. Poland could sell the planes to a non-NATO country, perhaps Finland, which could then sell them to Ukraine, with the money to be a loan for now. There must be a way around this, though Putin has already claimed that the sanctions are an act of war. Hell claim any help for Ukraine is an act of war against Russia, so just do it.
James48
(4,416 posts)You gotta ask them first. It takes time to make arrangements and have discussions.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)bucolic_frolic
(42,679 posts)Sounds like everyone is all for it but both parties don't want the responsibility
bluewater
(5,376 posts)cilla4progress
(24,589 posts)Melber's show, Ukraine IS getting the Polish planes.
questionseverything
(9,631 posts)Change the focus to why the United States isnt providing planes to ukraine
Since obviously nothing had been agreed to ahead of time
BigmanPigman
(51,432 posts)AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,432 posts)mysteryowl
(7,323 posts)Maybe they will do it through back channels and not in the media!
Grasswire2
(13,564 posts)Cheezoholic
(1,967 posts)To all of the armchair generals out there, which I am occasionally guilty of also, lets not forget when it comes to military strategy, especially in times of conflict, the art of misdirection is one of the strongest tools one can utilize. We should remember, half of what we think we know is what they want us to know the other half of what we think we know we actually have no clue. Im a big player of strategy games (not shoot em up war games) and deception is an art form. We should remember this shits for real, it isn't call of duty or some crap. Just sayin'...
look something shiny
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)cilla4progress
(24,589 posts)Sayin
Deminpenn
(15,246 posts)Poland doesn't want to do a direct sale to Ukraine. This plan put the US as the middle man, something clearly we did not want to be.
bluewater
(5,376 posts)We publicly announced we would swap F-16's to Poland if they gave the Mig 29's to Ukraine.
Then what happened? Poland got cold feet then WE got cold feet too?
Evolve Dammit
(16,632 posts)Deminpenn
(15,246 posts)Ukraine. This plan just sort of crosses the line of NATO involvement.
Poland shares a fairly long border with Ukraine. Sending the planes directly from Poland doesn't risk violating airspace. But clearly Poland doesn't want to be the direct transfer agent. They could again share a border with Russia. You can understand their reluctance to be so directly involved.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)and turning his back on NATO responsibility.
sinkingfeeling
(51,279 posts)AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)we elect leaders who can make the hard decisions for us. I can't even guess what intelligence that Biden has access to that is not being made public. I'm just pointing out how the Republicans may use this in future election propaganda.
Polybius
(15,239 posts)He is the Pentegon.
Yorkie Mom
(16,420 posts)EarthFirst
(2,877 posts)List left
(594 posts)It seems to me these discussions should be done behind closed doors.
oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)Doesn't even have to be very small parts
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)Maybe Poland will send them regardless.
regnaD kciN
(26,035 posts)
maybe in north Africa, and send Ukrainian pilots to fly them back to their country.
(Or else Poland can just declare them scrap and dump them near the border, so that Ukrainian farmers can tow them away with tractors
)
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)sinkingfeeling
(51,279 posts)down to Putin.
DallasNE
(7,392 posts)It had to be a non-starter since it set up a direct confrontation between the US and Russia, giving Putin an excuse for launching his nukes. And it is not something that you just announce to the world. What was Poland thinking?
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)flying_wahini
(6,529 posts)Fight to the last man. Why do we spend all this money if we are unwilling to use them against a
provocative bully like Putin? What does it mean if the smallest kid on the playground
is getting the shit beat out of him by the biggest bully and we dont want to overstep?
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)Despite what we told them when they broke away.
Thats all that needs to be said.
nowforever
(291 posts)Not sure why every military operation is needed to be broadcast publicly. I imagine if WWII were happening today and we'd be publicly disclosing our plans for D-Day and how we have deciphered the secret German code. Shouldn't war planning and activites be top secret. You could have just had Ukrainian pilots fly the jets from Poland under the cover of darkness through a circuitous route without announcing any of the details. Those jets should have been there a month ago without any disclosure of how and when.
Ray Bruns
(4,023 posts)and tell them to get it done.
Polybius
(15,239 posts)I trust him with this.
Emile
(21,913 posts)bdamomma
(63,658 posts)I thought the MIG's being used was given a "green light" so what the hell? So they are sitting in Germany, sorry for my ignorance but why didn't Poland just leave the MIG's in Poland for the Ukrainian pilots to get? Again, just asking.
Marcuse
(7,399 posts)Rules change.