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muriel_volestrangler

(101,316 posts)
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 06:44 PM Mar 2022

Ukraine ready to discuss adopting neutral status in Russia peace deal - Zelenskiy

Source: Reuters

LVIV, Ukraine (Reuters) -Ukraine is prepared to discuss adopting a neutral status as part of a peace deal with Russia but such a pact would have to be guaranteed by third parties and put to a referendum, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said in remarks aired on Sunday.
...
“Security guarantees and neutrality, non-nuclear status of our state. We are ready to go for it. This is the most important point,” Zelenskiy said.

Zelenskiy said Ukraine refused to discuss certain other Russian demands, such as the demilitarisation of the country.

Speaking more than a month after Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24, Zelenskiy said no peace deal would be possible without a ceasefire and troop withdrawals.



Read more: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-zelenskiy-russia/ukraine-ready-to-discuss-adopting-neutral-status-in-russia-peace-deal-zelenskiy-idUSKCN2LO0GK

39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Ukraine ready to discuss adopting neutral status in Russia peace deal - Zelenskiy (Original Post) muriel_volestrangler Mar 2022 OP
Well that is sortof where they were before this insanity ensued BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #1
Sorta, except Russia now has another chunk of land they didnt have before. nt Kashkakat v.2.0 Mar 2022 #13
I HOPE they don't do that.. the neutral part.. dangerous... HUAJIAO Mar 2022 #2
Exactly Rebl2 Mar 2022 #27
Putin will attack again in the future . .. .. Lovie777 Mar 2022 #3
Oh and that worked so well the first time blue-wave Mar 2022 #4
The difference now BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #5
So an economic default will blue-wave Mar 2022 #6
"So an economic default will magically change the Russian mindset and their dreams of empire?" BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #8
Agree..some perspective, it cost the US 300 million a day to fight in Afghanistan PortTack Mar 2022 #9
"I would not put it past them to strike again several years down the road." BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #14
Great points! Thank you PortTack Mar 2022 #15
We will have to watch what happens in about 8 days BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #18
Interesting..thx for the detailed post! PortTack Mar 2022 #33
Use all those frozen billions to help pay for reconstruction. oldsoftie Mar 2022 #19
They have a big bond interest note due April 4 BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #23
Yep. Smaller than Italy now. oldsoftie Mar 2022 #25
That chart was BEFORE the sanctions BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #29
"Putin destroyed their entire economy" former9thward Mar 2022 #30
Reading is fundadmental BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #34
I am not going to click on links to other threads., former9thward Mar 2022 #38
The link is not to another thread BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #39
Lets face it, the West is impotent & sanction won't stop the russian mobster so Ukraine will have to yaesu Mar 2022 #7
That is your opinion! The west/NATO has been anything but impotent in their response PortTack Mar 2022 #10
+1 -K&R onetexan Mar 2022 #16
Ha! Biilions in blue-wave Mar 2022 #11
Hopes & prayers, Arms & sanctions are all good, finance, taking in refugees is great but yaesu Mar 2022 #17
"There is no Iron Man or Rambo that will save the day." blue-wave Mar 2022 #20
They're not "alone". They're being supplied with multiple weapons systems. oldsoftie Mar 2022 #22
I think our & NATO intelligence has known for years that Russia is a military paper tiger, they yaesu Mar 2022 #26
UKR has exposed denuclearization as a fantasy. Controlling the countries isn't much better oldsoftie Mar 2022 #35
In 1991, the U.S. BumRushDaShow Mar 2022 #28
All good? 2fast4u Mar 2022 #31
So let Ukraine be overrun? GP6971 Mar 2022 #32
Oh come on, comrade. So what best for UKR is to have let them be overrun? oldsoftie Mar 2022 #36
STOP! James48 Mar 2022 #12
I think... Mike Nelson Mar 2022 #21
No way UKR gives up their military. Now especially. oldsoftie Mar 2022 #24
I agree. Neutrality makes sense, gives Putin the cover needed to sign an armistice Strelnikov_ Mar 2022 #37

BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
1. Well that is sortof where they were before this insanity ensued
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 07:06 PM
Mar 2022

I.e., "neutral", although looking to join the EU at some point.

Lovie777

(12,262 posts)
3. Putin will attack again in the future . .. ..
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 07:13 PM
Mar 2022

Zelenskky needs a much better binding contract with penalties against Russia if they break it like what is happening now

blue-wave

(4,353 posts)
4. Oh and that worked so well the first time
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 07:22 PM
Mar 2022

Yeah, just what Ukraine needs. More "promises" from Russia that they will leave Ukraine in peace.

Ukraine had this promise from Russia in the Budapest Agreement, when Ukraine gave up it's nuclear weapons. Guess what? Russia has since invaded and slaughtered thousands of Ukrainians not once, but twice since then.

Russia and Pooty have no honor. They have PROVEN that they cannot be trusted. If Ukraine accepts more promises, they are leaving the future open to more Russian aggression.

The Budapest Agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

And a Brookings article from 2014 (just after the first Russian invasion) on the subject: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/12/04/the-budapest-memorandum-and-u-s-obligations/

BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
5. The difference now
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 07:28 PM
Mar 2022

is that Russia is less than a week from defaulting. Putin destroyed their entire economy that was 30 years in the making, in less than a month.

blue-wave

(4,353 posts)
6. So an economic default will
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 07:38 PM
Mar 2022

magically change the Russian mindset and their dreams of empire? I think not. Too many people do not understand the Russian mindset because we have never lived in the brutal, as President Biden remarked yesterday "might makes right" Russian society. With many, if not most Russians, violence is a tool to achieve a desired end.

If some sort of "promise" agreement is concluded, the Russians will be back after they have licked their wounds and healed from the present fiasco.

Supply the Ukrainians with what is needed to push the Russians back over the border. Negotiate a peace deal from a position of strength and let the Ukrainians build a stronger military that will deter Russian aggression into the long term future.

BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
8. "So an economic default will magically change the Russian mindset and their dreams of empire?"
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 08:23 PM
Mar 2022

They can "dream" but multi-million dollar each planes and couple million dollar each T-90s (since their latest tanks have supposedly NOT been spotted on the battlefield and the production schedule had been delayed as it is) cost ₽₽₽₽.

So does ammunition, food and other supplies, and more importantly, pay for the soldiers.

I suppose they can "dream up" one of these to pay for all of their "dreams" -

PortTack

(32,767 posts)
9. Agree..some perspective, it cost the US 300 million a day to fight in Afghanistan
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 08:37 PM
Mar 2022

Having said that, I would not put it past them to strike again several years down the road.

BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
14. "I would not put it past them to strike again several years down the road."
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 08:57 PM
Mar 2022

That's assuming all those who are currently sanctioning the country, even lift some fraction of that and Russia actually will have any money to "strike again" anywhere. As it is, in their zeal to capture Mariupol, they bombed it into oblivion so how is it going to be reconstructed and who is paying for it? Those trying to take over an area will at least leave some infrastructure intact as "booty". But when one just dives in with no feasible plan, then one is left with the messed-up bed they made and will have to lay in it.

I remember the last go-around in 1998 when the IMF (with the encouragement of the U.S.) essentially helped to bail Russia out -

RESCUING RUSSIA: A special report.; The Bailout of the Kremlin: How U.S. Pressed the I.M.F.


By Michael R. Gordon and David E. Sanger
July 17, 1998


Seven weeks ago the chief of the International Monetary Fund, Michel Camdessus, assured the world's financial markets that there was no reason to panic about Russia. ''Contrary to what markets and commentators are imagining,'' Mr. Camdessus insisted as investors were fleeing the Russian markets, ''this is not a crisis. This is not a major development.'' This week, in a complete reversal, the I.M.F. and the Russian Government announced a bailout package that will inject $17.1 billion in new loans to the beleaguered nation over the next 18 months. The Clinton Administration was the driving force behind the reversal, impelled by the specter of Russia's financial collapse.

United States Treasury officials were worried that while negotiations with the Russians dragged on over forcing real economic change, the political peril to the Government of President Boris N. Yeltsin was growing. They pressed the fund to double the amount of money it was willing to lend to Russia, even though it depleted the I.M.F.'s own resources for fighting the economic contagion that is spreading beyond Asia. The Russian predicament once again casts a spotlight on the critical decisions made by the I.M.F. at a moment when the Asian financial crisis has made the institution more powerful than at any time in its 52-year history.

Critics of the I.M.F. charge that in this case, fund officials underestimated the gravity of the crisis and dragged out the negotiations while the markets turned against Russia and the eventual cost of the bailout rose. I.M.F. officials counter that it would have been a waste of money to offer yet another bailout to Russia without extracting a commitment to fundamental economic changes that are painful and politically unpopular. By last week, the negotiations turned into a race to rescue the Russian economy before the Government's financial reserves were exhausted. Without new funds, Russian officials feared they would run out of money to prevent a default on Russia's debt and prop up its currency by the end of the month.

''Last week was the most dangerous period,'' Yegor T. Gaidar, the former Prime Minister who is now an economic adviser to Mr. Yeltsin, said in an interview. ''If we followed all the standard procedures, the money would have arrived too late. I think the position of the leading industrial nations was very constructive and the U.S. Treasury helped a lot.'' The final package is not a permanent solution; it buys time for what American officials believe is the most reform-minded government in Russia in years. In Washington, however, there is palpable nervousness about the deal that was struck. It is unclear whether Mr. Yeltsin and his new Prime Minister will be able to fulfill their commitments to remake their economy.

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/17/world/rescuing-russia-special-report-bailout-kremlin-us-pressed-imf.html


Anyone think the IMF or the U.S. is going to bail Russia out this time?

(maybe China but certainly not anyone else that has an economy large enough to even try)

BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
18. We will have to watch what happens in about 8 days
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:12 PM
Mar 2022

because that is when the shit can hit the fan with respect to interest payments being due -

Russia will likely default with April 4 payment due of $2.2 billion, experts say

Last Updated: March 26, 2022 at 2:19 p.m. ET
First Published: March 26, 2022 at 1:51 p.m. ET
By Lydia Moynihan



Investors breathed a sigh of relief last week after the Russian government made a $117 million interest payment on its foreign debt. But a much bigger payment comes due April 4 — to the tune of $2.2 billion — and creditors are far less optimistic Russia will pony up this time. “The last payment was a small investment in credibility, but when Russia has to start writing billion dollar checks it’s a different calculation,” Jay Newman, former Elliott Management portfolio manager and author of “Undermoney,” told The Post. “I don’t think it’s realistic that Russia comes up with the $2.2 billion.

The bond payment last week panicked investors because it was unclear whether Russia’s central bank would be able to able to use its frozen reserve of US dollars to make the payment — and whether US banks would work with the country to transfer the money. There was also a dispute about whether Russia could pay the debt in its own currency. The Russian Finance Ministry insisted the country could pay in rubles RUBUSD, +3.10% but people with knowledge of the contract say it’s required to be paid in dollars.

For some smaller installment payments Russia is allowed to pay in rubles. But for the previous payments of $117 million and the upcoming payment of $2.2 billion, the terms mandate Russia must pay in US dollars. Russia came through last time. But debt experts take a grim view of what comes next. These people tell The Post they don’t think Russia’s ability and willingness to service its previous debt obligation means anything when it comes to the future — especially because Russia faces nearly $4.8 billion in debt payments this year.

And April 4 will be the first big test: “Two billion is real money,” Newman warns. The U.S. Treasury Department clarified Russia can use frozen funds to make debt payments until May 25. After that, the country likely needs to scrape up the money from other sources — borrowing cash or selling oil to countries like China or India.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/russia-will-likely-default-with-april-4-payment-due-of-2-2-billion-experts-say-01648317115


BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
23. They have a big bond interest note due April 4
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:20 PM
Mar 2022

They apparently squeaked through a smaller $117 million payment a couple weeks ago. But they are rapidly running out of other options (and the payments that are due must be in dollars).

I post this often but it give you a perspective on the GDP of the countries around the world and since this pie chart was created, Russia would have now shrunk to a dot (Russia's GDP carve-out is sitting on the edge of the circle on the right next to the word "Europe" ) -

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
30. "Putin destroyed their entire economy"
Mon Mar 28, 2022, 12:24 AM
Mar 2022

These economic predictions don't seem to be working out. We were told they were going to default two weeks ago. They didn't. We were told the stock exchange would not reopen. It reopened last week and went up. We were told the ruble would be worthless. It has stabilized and gone up.

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
38. I am not going to click on links to other threads.,
Mon Mar 28, 2022, 09:38 AM
Mar 2022

That is a circular argument which proves nothing. The predictions of imminent doom have not happened.

BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
39. The link is not to another thread
Mon Mar 28, 2022, 09:48 AM
Mar 2022

but is to a post in this same thread that includes an excerpt (and link to) and newer article from Marketwatch. But not choosing to read more, is not surprising.

yaesu

(8,020 posts)
7. Lets face it, the West is impotent & sanction won't stop the russian mobster so Ukraine will have to
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 08:13 PM
Mar 2022

pay extorsion in order to save thousands of lives. If the west wasn't so afraid of what pootie might do things would be different but it is what it is.

blue-wave

(4,353 posts)
11. Ha! Biilions in
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 08:47 PM
Mar 2022

weapons sent and billions more in sanctions as well as refugee aid and foreign legion troops fighting for Ukraine and the west is "impotent???'

Add to this cannibalized Russian equipment with only a 10% ready rate, meals ready to eat outdated by years and medical bandage packs dating to the late '70's (Um, that's when disco music was big) and it appears to me it's the Russians who are impotent.

yaesu

(8,020 posts)
17. Hopes & prayers, Arms & sanctions are all good, finance, taking in refugees is great but
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:10 PM
Mar 2022

the bottom line is how long can Ukraine hold out, that is completely up to them, no one else is in this fight, they are alone. There is no Iron Man or Rambo that will save the day.

blue-wave

(4,353 posts)
20. "There is no Iron Man or Rambo that will save the day."
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:14 PM
Mar 2022

You don't need one. The Russian military is a mess.

oldsoftie

(12,536 posts)
22. They're not "alone". They're being supplied with multiple weapons systems.
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:18 PM
Mar 2022

By multiple nations.
Yes, more can and should be done. And I believe more WILL be done. But short of NATO troops joining the war thats about it. And Russia's military has been revealed as the paper tiger that many suspected long ago. Which is a HUGE loss for Putin.

yaesu

(8,020 posts)
26. I think our & NATO intelligence has known for years that Russia is a military paper tiger, they
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:28 PM
Mar 2022

are broke & mired in corruption but are still very dangerous as they have the nuke tRump card. Iis a shame that its 2022 & there is still no process in place to stop out of control nuclear powers. The more we need to do & do right now is sanction countries that refuse to sanction russia like China, India & Turkey.

oldsoftie

(12,536 posts)
35. UKR has exposed denuclearization as a fantasy. Controlling the countries isn't much better
Mon Mar 28, 2022, 06:32 AM
Mar 2022

Look at Putin
Yes, we've long known the faults of Russias military but we'd never come out and SAY it because they'd want to prove otherwise sooner than now

BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
28. In 1991, the U.S.
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:39 PM
Mar 2022

assembled nearly 1 million troops, including almost 700,000 U.S. troops alone to remove Iraq from Kuwait, Kuwait being a country that is around 2/3rds the size of Crimea (not ALL of Ukraine but just the Crimea peninsula portion). Most were stationed in or near Saudi Arabia and in the Persian Gulf on ships.

Here is a map for comparison -



The small blue circle is around Kuwait. The red oval is around the bottom 2/3rds of Ukraine.

Putin has been attempting to take the entirety of Ukraine with perhaps somewhere south of 200,000 troops.

 

2fast4u

(10 posts)
31. All good?
Mon Mar 28, 2022, 12:30 AM
Mar 2022

I’m not convinced the arms shipments really are all good. I think a strong argument could be made that what it’s done is drag the invasion out and is turning Ukraine into a wasteland.

If NATO’s goal was to weaken Russia without losing a single member soldier - great. If it was to save Ukraine from destruction, I’m not sure it’s working.

oldsoftie

(12,536 posts)
36. Oh come on, comrade. So what best for UKR is to have let them be overrun?
Mon Mar 28, 2022, 06:35 AM
Mar 2022

No, there is no "strong argument" for NOT helping UKR defend itself. Unless Vladimir Putin is making the argument.

Mike Nelson

(9,955 posts)
21. I think...
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:17 PM
Mar 2022

... countries can decide to be neutral, and decide not to be neutral, too. I wouldn't give up the military, however; that's just Putin planning the next invasion.

oldsoftie

(12,536 posts)
24. No way UKR gives up their military. Now especially.
Sun Mar 27, 2022, 09:24 PM
Mar 2022

And they know they're more competent than the "2nd best military in Ukraine"

Strelnikov_

(7,772 posts)
37. I agree. Neutrality makes sense, gives Putin the cover needed to sign an armistice
Mon Mar 28, 2022, 09:19 AM
Mar 2022

And calms the Russian paranoia (and understandably so) of being invaded that Putin is able to feed on.

The west helps rebuild Ukraine, and flood it with defensive weaponry.


Most importantly, though, the west needs to win the peace once Putin's regime falls. NATO membership for Ukraine and a truly democratic Russia?

Also, I think the days of one country invading another, when both countries have modern man-served weaponry, are over. We are back to August 1914, where the defensive capabilities of the weaponry exceeds offensive capabilities.

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