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BumRushDaShow

(129,636 posts)
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 06:13 PM Apr 2022

CDC asks Justice Department to appeal judge's ruling that struck down mask mandate

Source: Washington Post

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recommended that the Justice Department appeal a federal judge’s decision that struck down the mask mandate on public transportation, the agency announced. “It is CDC’s continuing assessment that at this time an order requiring masking in the indoor transportation corridor remains necessary for the public health,” the agency said in a statement Wednesday evening. “CDC believes this is a lawful order, well within CDC’s legal authority to protect public health.”

U.S. District Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle of the Middle District of Florida on Monday concluded that the mandate exceeded CDC’s statutory authority, blindsiding the White House and sparking days of debate within the administration about whether to appeal the ruling. The Justice Department on Tuesday had said that it would wait for CDC’s recommendation on whether to proceed with an appeal. Public health officials have worried that the ruling poses a risk to the CDC’s authority, and outside experts had exhorted the Biden administration to act.

“If the courts handcuff the CDC in this most classic exercise of public health powers, it seems to me that CDC will not be able to act nimbly and decisively when the next health crisis hits. And it will hit,” said Lawrence O. Gostin, a Georgetown University professor of global health law, who advises the White House and urged them to appeal. If the decision is allowed to stand, Gostin said, the CDC “will always be looking over its shoulder, always gun shy about exercising its powers.”

But an appeal could tee up a battle at the Supreme Court, which has already dealt several blows to the administration’s coronavirus policies and could issue a new ruling that further constrained CDC’s attempts to fight future virus surges. Health experts had lamented Monday’s court ruling, saying it confused Americans about the need for masking and could increase the risk of virus spread.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/04/20/cdc-seeks-mask-mandate/



I was hoping they hadn't done this -

The GOP has been trying to eliminate "healthcare" and "public health" from day one. They want "survival of the fittest" and are willing to kill people (and even themselves - see Herman Cain) to uphold that nonsense.
38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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CDC asks Justice Department to appeal judge's ruling that struck down mask mandate (Original Post) BumRushDaShow Apr 2022 OP
Good LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2022 #1
Oh the confusion. THE CONFUSION! underpants Apr 2022 #2
Should be Executive Branch with input from CDC and others. Hoyt Apr 2022 #3
will there be any ruling before May 3rd? pstokely Apr 2022 #6
According to the Washington Post article that is linked: gldstwmn Apr 2022 #15
Hard to say at this point FBaggins Apr 2022 #19
Kicking for visibility SheltieLover Apr 2022 #4
The mandate should remain for public transportation. sheshe2 Apr 2022 #5
Republicans are not a democratic party, they are the insurrection party YoshidaYui Apr 2022 #7
Once they win, it needs to be extended until the end of the year. MichMan Apr 2022 #8
That sounds like a great way to lose a ton of seats in November. Ace Rothstein Apr 2022 #17
56% of Americans favor a mask mandate on planes, trains and public transportation while 24% opposed MichMan Apr 2022 #18
We'll find out pretty quickly whether that poll has any validity FBaggins Apr 2022 #20
Real life says otherwise. Ace Rothstein Apr 2022 #26
That is exactly why the mandate needs to be extended for several months then. MichMan Apr 2022 #27
Why isn't that an argument for mask mandates in general? FBaggins Apr 2022 #29
Ask the CDC. They are the ones setting the policy MichMan Apr 2022 #32
No they aren't FBaggins Apr 2022 #35
The OP isn't about states/counties/ cities. It is about Federal mandates for public transportation. MichMan Apr 2022 #36
The thread then turned to political implications FBaggins Apr 2022 #37
Elected officials will need to explain their decisions to their own constituents MichMan Apr 2022 #38
Tues/Weds Travel Observations unweird Apr 2022 #28
How many on the flight were masked? FBaggins Apr 2022 #30
Smaller sample unweird Apr 2022 #33
Glad to see this stupid ruling being appealed ificandream Apr 2022 #9
I'm sure... Snackshack Apr 2022 #10
DOJ was was the one who proposed to do it BumRushDaShow Apr 2022 #13
That still doesn't mean that they'll fight it very agressively FBaggins Apr 2022 #22
We will have to wait to see what they do? BumRushDaShow Apr 2022 #23
Sure - but the speculation in #10 is still valid until we do FBaggins Apr 2022 #24
Note that a significant chunk of DU has insulted DOJ for things unrelated to this BumRushDaShow Apr 2022 #25
It no longer matters to me.. SouthernDem4ever Apr 2022 #11
I think it should be mandatory that people aren't so fucking stupid. twodogsbarking Apr 2022 #12
This is why Plato said of democracy: "Wait, you gonna let stupid people vote?" tclambert Apr 2022 #34
Good. Owl Apr 2022 #14
Their side can kill themselves while our side keeps masking IronLionZion Apr 2022 #16
I wish they could remove Judge Mizelle from the bench Mr. Sparkle Apr 2022 #21
Good rockfordfile Apr 2022 #31

underpants

(182,938 posts)
2. Oh the confusion. THE CONFUSION!
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 06:26 PM
Apr 2022

It’s not stinking confusing. We know what works and anyone at risk has every tool available to them. That includes people who will be near people at risk.

The rightwing media is taking a victory lap but they seem to have convinced themselves that Trump lost specifically because of COVID. Those press events everyday were a disaster.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
3. Should be Executive Branch with input from CDC and others.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 06:27 PM
Apr 2022

Unless CDC is planning on extending the mandate past May 3rd, an appeal is wasting everyone’s time. It’ll likely be May 3rd before the appeal results is announced.

CDC messed up early on regarding masks, and royally screwed up on testing. I’m sure trump didn’t help, but he’s been fired by voters.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
15. According to the Washington Post article that is linked:
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 09:24 PM
Apr 2022

Government officials face an uncertain reception at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit, which reviews cases from Florida, Georgia and Alabama. A majority of the judgeswere appointed by President Donald Trump, as was Mizelle, a district court judge. The Biden administration could ask the appeals court to immediately put Mizelle’s ruling on hold and reinstate the mandate, which, if successful, would create a new wave of confusion for travelers using public transportation.

FBaggins

(26,774 posts)
19. Hard to say at this point
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 06:11 AM
Apr 2022

All I've seen is the DOJ's initial notice of appeal.

Will they ask for an emergency stay on the lower court's ruling? If not (absent a new surge in cases) the issue could be moot by the time the 11th circuit decides whether or not to even take the case.

That could be the best result (again - assuming that there isn't a new wave of infections). The administration clearly states that the lower court's ruling was incorrect, so nobody gets the notion that the CDC actually lacks this power... but there's no longer a need to adjudicate it.

sheshe2

(83,945 posts)
5. The mandate should remain for public transportation.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 06:38 PM
Apr 2022

AS for survival of the fittest? It may just backfire on them. The GOP voters are stupid and they may just see far more Dem voters as their herd dies off.

FBaggins

(26,774 posts)
20. We'll find out pretty quickly whether that poll has any validity
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 06:50 AM
Apr 2022

The AP polled about a thousand people.

But there are thousands upon thousands of flights every day. It will quickly become obvious whether most people continue to wear masks on public transportation or not.

The small number of videos/photos from flights as the change was made imply that the overwhelming majority of travelers removed their masks.

Ace Rothstein

(3,192 posts)
26. Real life says otherwise.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 09:05 AM
Apr 2022

Everyone I know who has been in an airport and on a plane the last few days says the vast majority aren't masking. I'm in a 60/40 leans red area and I see maybe 10% of people masking.

MichMan

(11,992 posts)
27. That is exactly why the mandate needs to be extended for several months then.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 09:16 AM
Apr 2022

If everyone was masking voluntarily, there wouldn't really be a need for a mandate.

FBaggins

(26,774 posts)
29. Why isn't that an argument for mask mandates in general?
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 11:08 AM
Apr 2022

I doubt that it makes much difference if 90% of the population is maskless all day but wears a mask on flights.

MichMan

(11,992 posts)
32. Ask the CDC. They are the ones setting the policy
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 12:07 PM
Apr 2022

I assume they have scientific data to support their position.

FBaggins

(26,774 posts)
35. No they aren't
Fri Apr 22, 2022, 06:04 AM
Apr 2022

The CDC has no power to create (let alone lift) mask mandates in the states/counties/cities. Local legislatures (or in many cases state constitutions) rest that power in their local executives.

The CDC just makes recommendations… and their current recommendation is that masks be worn indoors in areas where infection rates are high. It’s up to the local executives to decide whether/how to implement that advice and whether infection rates in their area warrant it.

You made a statement in #27 that the mandate needs to be extended for several months. If you’re deferring to the CDC you must be saying that you think infection rates in general are still high enough to warrant such a policy. I’m just asking you to apply that belief to recent policy moves (almost exclusively made by democratic executives).

As an example… Philadelphia ended their local mask mandate a bit over a month ago… only to put it back in place a few days ago. Yet last night announced that the mandate ends today. The CDC certainly didn’t change course twice since Monday.

So I’ll ask again a different way - why do you think Democratic politicians are removing mask mandates that you think are still necessary if it isn’t that they perceive the public to desire that change?

I only see two possibilities: either you’re incorrect on the remaining health risk or these politicians are making bad policy decisions because they believe the public wants them to. Is there a third possibility?

MichMan

(11,992 posts)
36. The OP isn't about states/counties/ cities. It is about Federal mandates for public transportation.
Fri Apr 22, 2022, 06:45 AM
Apr 2022

As you stated, the CDC by itself has no power to set mandates, however the administration bases federal policy on those CDC recommendations. When asked, the administration defers to the CDC as being the experts.

Even after nearly all states withdrew mask mandates, the CDC kept them in place for public transportation until May 3, and the administration agreed with that recommendation. My statement regarding keeping it in place after May 3 was strictly referring to the public transportation rules. Rules on which the administration believes they have the authority to set, or they wouldn't be appealing the recent court decision. The Federal government clearly does not have the authority to set nationwide mask mandates, which is why they deferred to the states from day one.

The fact that many people are questioning the decisions made by state and local elected politicians as being based on political considerations vs health concerns shows the lack of trust and cynicism of the public towards their elected representatives. The rapidly shifting mandates since the beginning of the pandemic have only exacerbated those levels of cynicism.


FBaggins

(26,774 posts)
37. The thread then turned to political implications
Fri Apr 22, 2022, 06:57 AM
Apr 2022

You claimed that the mandate needed to stay in place through the end of the year and Ace Rothstein said that sounded like a great way to lose a bunch of seats in the coming elections. You replied (based on a poll) that the public fairly overwhelmingly supported the mandate.

Our politicians are not acting as though they agree with you.

MichMan

(11,992 posts)
38. Elected officials will need to explain their decisions to their own constituents
Fri Apr 22, 2022, 07:11 AM
Apr 2022

I merely stated the poll numbers I saw regarding Federal mask mandates for public transportation. IMO, Health decisions should be based on protecting public safety responsibly, not on polling numbers. Some may disagree


If indeed, some elected officials are basing their decisions on political considerations, that only supports the cynicism many of the public have had since the beginning.

unweird

(2,555 posts)
28. Tues/Weds Travel Observations
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 09:42 AM
Apr 2022

Maybe 10% wearing masks. Actually counted 2 of 34 in a sampling in Omaha yesterday morning while on the phone with a family member. Small sample size which I should have retested in Atlanta but didn’t.
On the flight out Tuesday morning at 6 am the flight attendant announcements began with a ‘good to see the smiling faces again’ which was met with scattered applause.

unweird

(2,555 posts)
33. Smaller sample
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 02:07 PM
Apr 2022

Four legs to the trip, two on Tuesday and two yesterday. And one in three seat mates were masked. Well, technically four but didn’t count the guy in coach before I got pulled up to first class where I had no seat mate.

FBaggins

(26,774 posts)
22. That still doesn't mean that they'll fight it very agressively
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 07:10 AM
Apr 2022

It's one thing to appeal because the lower court made a bad decision.

It's an entirely different thing to fight for the mask mandate to stay in place. Will they ask for a quick ruling and an emergency stay of the lower court's ruling while the appeal progresses? If not... they're technically appealing but de-facto allowing the mandate to end.

BumRushDaShow

(129,636 posts)
23. We will have to wait to see what they do?
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 07:27 AM
Apr 2022

No?

There is more and more concern about the potential loss of authority granted in the various Public Health laws due to unnecessary politicization of "health" in general, that is bubbling up from within the medical and public health community (and as people involved in "science", they have a tendency to be more introverted, less vocal, and often reticent about speaking up with their concerns - as a retired government scientist myself, I know how these folks are - basically nerds).

The problem here is that the era when those laws were drafted (during and post-WW2), society was a bit more duty-bound to follow the guidance (particularly due to the polio epidemic and so many other communicable diseases that were ravaging the country). So outside of some of the quarantine provisions, not much else has been "tested in court" - particularly nationally, as most of the mandates were being done at the state/county/local levels (e.g., "required vaccines for children to attend school, etc).

The one "federal" mandate that got challenged recently and has so far been beaten back, was the vaccine requirement for the military (I expect partially due to the UCMJ and the Constitution's designation of the President as the "Commander in Chief" ).

FBaggins

(26,774 posts)
24. Sure - but the speculation in #10 is still valid until we do
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 07:40 AM
Apr 2022

You're correct on the actual clash. The CDC's ability to regulate an area far more within their original mandate than things like evictions or OSHA's vaccine rules is absolutely something that should be defended.

The problem is... it probably can't be. Oh... I'm sure that the DOJ could get an emergency stay if they really want one, but that wouldn't resolve the ruling itself (just pause it). Actually overturning the ruling will probably take some time and, unless the CDC continues the mandate for months (which isn't likely), the case will be mooted before there's time to rule.

Whether the speculation in #10 is accurate or not, the administration's recent behavior at least implies that they want us to move forward from Covid (whatever that means). The short-term extensions of the mandate imply that the just want to make sure that infection numbers stay down before they let the mandate end... but they want it to end. Fighting for the right to create such mandates and fighting for the current one to stay in effect tomorrow... are two different things.

If #10 is questioning the DOJ on its willingness to fight for the first principle, they're probably wrong. But if they're questioning the second? I think they're correct.

BumRushDaShow

(129,636 posts)
25. Note that a significant chunk of DU has insulted DOJ for things unrelated to this
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 08:21 AM
Apr 2022

i.e., the January 6 investigations and prosecutions and pace of those activities (which require a or several grand juries). And this is despite the hundreds and hundreds of cases that are being worked and updated daily on their site - https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases (many of the cases are not "sexy enough" to make the national news media, so like young infants, if something is "not seen" then it has "disappeared" forever).

So that was the context that I used for that reply.

And there might be confusion here regarding what is essentially 3 different stories and if one of the 3 were missed, then it could skew the perspective -

#1 - A federal district court order throwing out the mask mandate

#2 - DOJ's offer to argue on behalf of CDC, which is obviously what generally happens in the federal government for certain cases because the majority of federal agencies are NOT "criminal" but "civil" and thus must work with both their agency's lawyers and DOJ's to provide the evidence in the format needed, so they can execute certain legal (notably criminal) actions as needed. In this case, it's possible CDC's OGC could do it but DOJ would probably have more resources. I know this well from when I was still working at my agency and interacted with local DOJ staffers many times for various issues like seizures, injunctions, consent decrees, etc., and had to draft up the dockets (using their template) for our agency's final review and submission (and we had people who did nothing but redacting). And as it was, all of our diaries and worksheets, etc were NARA archived for court/FOIA purposes as needed, based on whatever schedule was in place for them.

#3 - CDC's "public" acceptance of their assistance to go the next step to uphold their authority


It is a mixed bag in this case because the mandate was set to expire in a couple weeks but was extended... and I assume aside from the fact that BA2 has arrived and cases have crept up again, the nation is also coming out of a significant confluence of 3 major religious holidays (Easter, Passover, Ramadan) and those types of activities have been shown in the past to exasperate spread.

Here in PA, a similar state court ruling threw out the governor's mask mandate just short of its expiration and the governor let it go. But the follow up was that the RW loon state legislature here managed to push through a ballot question during a low turnout primary (after passing legislation 2 sessions in a row) to change the state Constitution and severely limit a governor's "emergency" powers - basically inserting themselves into that process to cut it off whenever they wanted after 2 weeks of such an order being in effect (no matter what type of emergency, including health or even disaster).

So the ramifications are significant when it comes to the GOP's focus on tearing down our democratic institutions and separations of power and I think this potential scenario is being deeply debated and next steps are being worked through.

SouthernDem4ever

(6,617 posts)
11. It no longer matters to me..
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 08:32 PM
Apr 2022

I'll wear a mask when the CDC guidelines dictate, and the antivaxxer antimaskers can all croak for all I care. If they are that stupid, it's no longer my issue.

twodogsbarking

(9,840 posts)
12. I think it should be mandatory that people aren't so fucking stupid.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 08:47 PM
Apr 2022

Guess that has already been struck down.

tclambert

(11,087 posts)
34. This is why Plato said of democracy: "Wait, you gonna let stupid people vote?"
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 08:07 PM
Apr 2022

I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it. He said that on the ship of state, if you let the crew elect the captain, you may end up with an amiable idiot, someone the crew likes, who promises double grog rations and knows nothing about navigation or how a ship functions. You can expect to lose all hands during the first storm when you run into the rocks.

IronLionZion

(45,550 posts)
16. Their side can kill themselves while our side keeps masking
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 09:30 PM
Apr 2022

More of our side is vaccinated. It could make a difference in some swing districts this November

Mr. Sparkle

(2,950 posts)
21. I wish they could remove Judge Mizelle from the bench
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 07:09 AM
Apr 2022

Shes not qualified to be a judge in any way shape or form.

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