Russia to opt out of International Space Station after 2024

[BumRushDaShow]

Source: AP

MOSCOW (AP) — Russia will opt out of the International Space Station after 2024 and focus on building its own orbiting outpost, the country’s newly appointed space chief said Tuesday.

Yuri Borisov, who was appointed earlier this month to lead the state-controlled space corporation Roscosmos, said during a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin that Russia will fulfill its obligations to other partners at the International Space Station before it leaves the project.

“The decision to leave the station after 2024 has been made,” Borisov said.Borisov’s statement reaffirmed previous declarations by Russian space officials about Moscow’s intention to leave the space outpost after 2024.It comes amid soaring tensions between Russia and the West over the Kremlin’s military action in Ukraine.

Despite the rift, NASA and Roscosmos made a deal earlier this month for astronauts to continue riding Russian rockets and for Russian cosmonauts to catch lifts to the International Space Station with SpaceX beginning this fall.

Read more: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-science-241e789005f6375eeac3189acbdbc140

[Irish_Dem]

1. China and Russia want their own space stations.

I am sure their motives are entirely altruistic and harmless.

[FarPoint]

2. They will probably

sabotage it as well...remote access stuff.

[BumRushDaShow]

4. Not wise

considering the multiple countries involved in the ISS, including those who have modules (and/or other equipment like robotic arms) on it like Japan, Canada, and the European Space Agency -

[Irish_Dem]

5. But China and Russia have greatly sabotaged western democracies.

And they have not paid for that in the least.

[BumRushDaShow]

8. That's because "cheap labor" is the price we pay

thanks to the oligarchs.

[Irish_Dem]

9. Exactly.

We sold our souls to the devil a long time ago.

The world oligarchs are in full control.

[BumRushDaShow]

11. They have always been in control

at least in the modern era with the advent of travel and telecommunications that created "global markets" (notably banking). It's just that television and the internet have exposed the obscenity of it all, where previously it was the subject of newspaper gossip columns and magazines.

[Irish_Dem]

28. Oh yes.

The oligarchs have always been in control.

But at one point they gave Americans some crumbs, a middle class life style and a pretense of democracy. Given more freedoms.

Now there is no pretense.

[BumRushDaShow]

31. The only thing "given" was to a certain demographic (others were purposely kept out of that)

and that was as the direct result of a World War. Once that war ended, all the newly-minted and trained construction workers were tasked to create an "oasis" outside of the "crime ridden cities" and build the roads to get there... and off they went until they ran out of steam, and "things changed". The "Rosie the Riveters" became the "Barbies" and when people complained about being left out, the cost of having "duplicates" or keeping people "out", had to be offset somehow, and thus the attack on the unions began to "lower costs", essentially the beginning of the end.

I remember back in the early '80s when there was a full page ad (I think in the NYT) that proclaimed what the "average salary" was for a Greyhound bus driver. I believe it was during their strike. An article about the eventual agreement was here -

HOW DEREGULATION ALLOWED GREYHOUND TO WIN CONCESSIONS FROM STRIKERS

By William Serrin

Dec. 7, 1983


The Greyhound strike, for which a tentative settlement has been reached, is one of many instances in which deregulation of the transportation industry is forcing concessions on wages and work rules from workers and affecting longstanding labor-management relations. Many trucking companies refuse to pay wage scales mandated by contracts. Thousands of nonunion companies have emerged, and they are paying substantially less than union wages.

New competition brought by deregulation, in which the Federal Government lifted rules governing such matters as rates and routes, has resulted in concessions won by numerous airlines, including Eastern, Western, Republic, Pan American and Trans World. Jobs have been created at new carriers, but these are nonunion jobs, which frightens unions. Other jobs have been lost. A bitter strike by pilots at Continental Air Lines resulted after the company laid off 12,000 employees and hired back about a third, at about half their former wages. Wide Impact of Deregulation

For Greyhound, airline deregulation has meant increased competition from new low-cost air carriers, which have have undercut bus fares on routes of 100 to 250 miles, important runs for the bus industry. Bus deregulation has meant fare wars with Trailways Inc., Greyhound's main competitor, and it raises the specter of fare wars with other competitors.

Bus deregulation also means Greyhound can raise fares and eliminate unprofitable runs, and John W. Teets, its chairman, feels that Greyhound Lines Inc., which earned a profit of $19.6 million last year, must reduce labor costs if it is to take advantage of this new competition. Greyhound was able to win pay concessions from striking drivers in a tentative agreement announced Saturday night.

(snip)

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/07/us/how-deregulation-allowed-greyhound-to-win-concessions-from-strikers.html

[Irish_Dem]

35. Yes. Good points.

The men came back from WWII and wanted to go back to school on the GI bill, get married, have kids, lead peaceful lives. The economy boomed, but only for certain groups. The women went back to the home from the factories, etc. Minorities who had fought valiantly in the war were thrown back to a racist society.

Corporations were making money and wanted to make more. Anyway they could.

[ancianita]

23. Nice! Thanks.

[BumRushDaShow]

3. I think Russia got the idea to go on and try again

after observing China assembling their first one (Tiangong). They just had a lab module successfully dock yesterday.


This illustration shows the configuration of the Tiangong space station after docking of the Wentian module (left) to the Tianhe core module (right). A Shenzhou crew spacecraft and Tianzhou cargo ship are also docked at the station. Credit: China Manned Space Agency (from here)


Of course the first thing I hear on the news early this morning was about the disposition of the heavy rocket boosters used to launch that station module, and where in the world the debris may end up.

Russia has done several stations before over the decades but now in the more modern space era, I expect China will be happy to "help" (in exchange for more cheap oil).

[Irish_Dem]

6. China and Russia planned this in advance.

Not a new plan, but one they have been working on for some time.

Russia and China are working closely together to achieve global superpower status.
To do so, they must surpass the US and other western democracies.
And bring down those western democracies.

So far their plans are proceeding quite nicely.

[BumRushDaShow]

10. Only thing is

don't underestimate their own personal ambitions to each have sole domination and not necessarily "partner" in that endeavor, - particularly when it comes to trade in that part of the world. They are still culturally different with different histories and China has learned over the millennia to play the "long game" more so than Russia.

Both of them actually "westernized" once they saw the benefits of "capitalism" (as a previously unrealized bonus to their own elites). Too much of that may yet spark a new revolution in both countries to return to their "Communist" (supposed "worker-focused" ) system and eschew "western" forms of economics.

[Irish_Dem]

21. Yes partners in crime can always turn on each other.

But for now Russia and China need each other.

Russia is to exhibit control over the West by installing puppet governments and by weakening the western democracies.

China will do the same in the East. China has been working on South America and Africa for decades, and their soft colonization has been very successful. China is also now getting control of South China Sea islands, etc. They have built up their military very well.
China now has the largest standing army in the world. And continues to increase their military budget.

China also has been importing a great deal of gold bullion. The plan is to make the Yuan a global currency.

Yes China is infamous for playing the long game. Russia seems more impatient and impetuous. But in reality Russia has been playing the long game too. It has been working on weakening the US for decades. And we can see they have been cultivating US operatives for a long time. Trump is a good example. Russian speaking wife and visits to Moscow starting in the 1980s.

Yes Russia and China saw the vast wealth available in a capitalistic society and wanted a piece of the action. So they have a hybrid system of economic capitalism with a totalitarian form of government. They believe their system is the best. They see democracies as weak and ineffectual, never getting anything done. Tightly controlling the people is better they think in terms of making societal gains. And in a very short period of time China has raised the Chinese standard of living in a way that is amazing and astounding.

Russia of course works on doing the opposite. Keeps lowering the Russian standard of living. Indoor plumbing is only for people living in Moscow. Putin and his oligarchs have siphoned all of Russia's wealth. Like Rachel Maddow says, Russia isn't really a country, it is land ruled by a vicious mob. Putin has an iron grip on the country, so I don't know if the people have the courage to rebel. If Putin and his pals were not so damn greedy they would take a page from China.

China on the other hand is more fearful of their populace. When you rule over a billion and a half people it can be dicey preventing rebellion. Twenty years ago the Chinese were living in abject poverty, and under very strict control. I happened to visit China at that time and it is not describable in a way that Americans can really understand. The starvation, deprivation and abject fear was palpable and very very scary.

Chinese officials realized this was not sustainable for the long term. A billion people can take over the government easily and the Chinese people had nothing to lose. So the Chinese government got smart. Started making money from the West. Channelled some of the money back to the people. Food became plentiful and cheap. The police backed off and many of them dressed in street clothes. The oppressive police presence ended. Make no mistake it is still a rigid totalitarian society but transformed. I also visited China during this period and my jaw dropped for most of the trip. I could not fathom that this was the same country I had visited 15 years earlier.

The regular Chinese person is content, enjoying a standard of living a life only dreamt of in prior years. And they seem ignorant of Chinese wrong doing, but know some about the US bad practices.

In the US, the GOP wants what China and Russia have. They want total permanent power, minority rule. And access to national assets. Many Americans are fine with this as long as it is white male christian rule.

So it appears that the people of the world may not rebel. We will see this combination of capitalism and autocracy. The Chinese and Russian model being adopted by western democracies. Then China and Russia have a clear field to change the balance of global power.

[BumRushDaShow]

24. Well the internet (and consumption of it - however limited it has been in both countries)

have given a whole younger generation a taste of something none of their parents, grandparents, or other ancestors had, and that is perhaps the one weakness for both countries attempting to rein it in without a fight (see North Korea and their extreme control over that)!

[Irish_Dem]

27. China's control over their internet is sophisticated and comprehensive.

The censorship is incredible by US standards. Websites are blocked and internet traffic is monitored.

You can readily see what Beijing did and is doing to Hong Kong which used to be free, but is not longer.

If you talk to the typical Chinese citizen they have no knowledge of what their government has done in Tibet or to the Uyghurs for example.

And you can see here in the US, the astounding amount of Putin GOP nasty propaganda which has bombarded Americans for decades now. And at least a third of the US believes this preposterous crap.

One third of Americans are for a fascist regime as long as it is a white male christian one.
One third of Americans don't care either way.
One third of Americans do care about democracy but are either peacemakers and will cave in, and the others are helpless.

[BumRushDaShow]

30. Oh I know

Now imagine being in a federal agency with staff that travel to China to look at regulated products and need to communicate back to the office. Needless to say, it was (and probably continues to be) an ordeal.

And I know that the transition of Hong Kong was going to be a long arduous process and I expect many have been exiting the city (or have already done so), and are heading to (or are now working in) other places (like Singapore).

And in the U.S., you don't even have to get esoteric about "democracy" when probably 90% couldn't point out China or Russia on a map and just as many don't even know their own state capitals or who their elected officials are. The "thousands" of cable stations and "tens of thousands" of streaming video options on the internet, have made sure of that.

Bread an Circuses.

[Irish_Dem]

32. Oh yes.

Any American in China should expect that emails are monitored.
Yes communication from China to the outside is mysteriously difficult.

The hotels where non Chinese stay are always watched.

At least now the secret police are in plain clothes. 20 years ago it was all uniformed police with red hats everywhere you went. Casting fear and anxiety wherever you went.
Back in those days no one was allowed to congregate or sit down outside.
If you sat down, a red hat policeman would chase you away.

And today while Beijing is still closely monitored, especially tourist groups, as well as the general population, things are more laid back in the other cities. It makes for a much nicer visit.

I actually love China and the Chinese people. It is the best trip in the world.
At least today it is. 25 years ago it was a nightmare.
But even today of course you can never forget what is all around you.
A ruthless totalitarian government.

Yes anyone who could get out of Hong Kong was smart to do so.
It is going to be very difficult to go from democracy to autocracy.

I know, I laugh when all these GOPers talk about their freedoms and fighting wearing a mask during a global pandemic. These snowflakes would not last one week in China or Russia.

And yes people today probably don't care what form of government they live under.
As long as they have the basics and the Internet they are good to go.

[BumRushDaShow]

33. One of my sisters has been there 3 times for work

including during 9/11 (that was a bit stressful for us because of the ground stop of all the planes that week but she was good and said she had been watching it on CNN there, although to this day, she never "felt" the same type of impact of the coverage that we had here).

She said no foreigner goes anywhere unescorted (although I expect anyone fluent in Mandarin or Cantonese can maybe get away with it in some places).

But like everywhere else, including here, the people are held hostage by the whims of their leaders.

I think that even the little bit of direct interaction between people of different nations via the internet has actually been beneficial to teaching how different but the same people are - far beyond what you'd get from being a "pen pal". (see K-Pop)

[Irish_Dem]

36. Yes.

China keeps close tabs on foreigners in their country.

Yes the regular people of a country can be wonderful.
But subject to the whims and demands of their leaders.

Yes there is much more international interaction.
Ha I had to look up Kpop pen pals.

I love K-Pop music, Korean bands.

[BumRushDaShow]

37. One of my nieces loves BTS

and knows all the names of the (rotating) band members and their military statuses because they have been getting waivers from the requirement to serve a term (for however long) in the South Korean military.

[Irish_Dem]

38. I liked K-pop back when when they first started.

They had a very unique style. Very smooth, soulful.

BTS is modern, I guess things have gone more towards western style.
But BTS is good. I can see why your niece loves them.

That is funny the SK government gives them waivers. I think the compulsory military service in SK is two years, about the same time as Israel's compulsory service.

[paulkienitz]

25. The difference is, China will have one.

Russia's chances of getting a new station up by 2024 are about as good as my chances of doing it from my back yard. I estimate 2028 if the Putin regime loses power in the next year -- longer if not.

[Irish_Dem]

29. Yes exactly. 100% certain China will have one and soon.

Russia, I am not so sure.

[Bengus81]

7. Sure...just like their em..."space shuttle" that sets in a park and their moon lander

Those clowns copy the designs of everything from a B29 to the space shuttle and they still don't work. But...good luck Putti Poo on your space station.

[BumRushDaShow]

14. ...

Link to tweet

Sputnik Not
@Sputnik_Not
·
Follow
BREAKING: Ukrainian farmer steals Soyuz rocket
Image
1:35 PM · Mar 9, 2022

In all seriousness, what was the U.S.S.R. had Salyut and then Mir, from the early '70s until the early '90s, so they have been there done that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. From the late 70s to the mid 90s, the Soviets/Russians were ahead in space station and long-term

spaceflight, with Salyut 6 and then Mir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut_6

They won't be just "copying the Americans".

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

12. If I was Yuri...

...I'd keep a close eye on that new space station. Some Ukrainian astronaut might just tow it away.

[pazzyanne]

13. ...

[BumRushDaShow]

15. ...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

16. You funny!

I'll be watching ebay.

[BumRushDaShow]

17. Posted that upthread

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2947588

Good ole Soyuz rocket at the other end of a sturdy Ukranian tractor!

[EndlessWire]

22. LOL! n/t

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

19. If you don't stop being mean to me I'm going to take my ball and go home! - V Pooty Poot

[LudwigPastorius]

20. Are they taking their segments of the station with them like children throwing a tantrum?

I wouldn't put such a punk move past Putin.

I believe NASA is planning for that contingency, but replacing them would take a lot of money, and probably more time than than a year and a half.

[paulkienitz]

26. Actually we only need minor upgrades if Russia detaches their section

Two main things would be needed: internal upgrades to life support, and thrusters mounted on the truss. Such thrusters were designed years ago but never launched. For bonus points, throw on some ion engines too, to reduce the need for orbital reboost.

Now these things may be expensive, but the cost is pretty small compared to what it would take to replace the whole Russian section. And that section is showing its age, with many small leaks and maintenance headaches. At some point those old modules are going to be a safety risk we're actually better off without. That's actually a big reason the Russians want out, besides just pettiness: because their habitat zone is less safe to live in every year.

[tonekat]

34. They were stinking it up anyway

Fine, good riddance.

[Xolodno]

39. The ISS is set to be decommissioned in 2031.

China and Russia have also signed agreements to work on a International Lunar Research Station with the plan to have it in 2035. I suspect it won't be ready by then, but they will be farther ahead than NASA and the ESA.

We wouldn't allow China to join the ISS (we were the only nation to veto that idea), but, fairly sure Russia gave a good amount of technology transfer to them. I wouldn't also be surprised if they add a few countries (such as India) to the program.

[Johnny999r]

40. Russia is a sore loser

The ISS in my opinion was the best example of Russia and USA cooperation and it's too bad Russia doesn't want to engage anymore, as if someone took their ball away on the playground. I've heard many stories of strong friendships facilitated by duty aboard the ISS, this being an example of what could be said about the positive diplomatic rewards, but unfortunately ruined by Russian hardliners and politicians. It's like why the founders felt so strongly about the separation of church and state, throw in the mix politicians with an agenda and all the good intentions and progress are flushed down the toilet. Did Russia actually believe the world would give them a pass regarding their invasion of Ukraine and believe the lame excuses Putin came up with to justify his actions? It worked for him on a large segment of our population during the last election, but those were the ignorant examples and easier to manipulate.