January 6 committee obtains eight emails showing possible planning of post-election crime
Source: CNN Politics
Washington CNN The House select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol has obtained eight emails from late 2020 that a judge determined show Donald Trump and his lawyers planning to defraud courts and obstruct the congressional vote on the presidency. A new court filing from Trumps then-attorney John Eastman disclosed that the House said it had accessed the emails on Friday.
The House probe has been fighting for the records for months, and a federal judge cleared the way for the committee to receive them in recent weeks, calling them possible evidence of the planning of crimes on Trumps behalf. Eastman had tried several last-ditch attempts to hold off the committee. The panel declined to comment to CNN.
The emails that the committee finally has accessed include four communications between Trump attorneys that appear to indicate they knew details they submitted to courts to challenge the election were false, and four emails that reveal them discussing filing lawsuits as a way to hold off congressional certification of Trumps electoral loss, Judge David O. Carter previously revealed.
One of the emails describes concern the lawyers had about submitting a declaration signed by Trump himself in a lawsuit challenging the election, which said the election fraud allegations it presented to the court were true, the judges previous opinion revealed. The Trump-signed statement was sent to court, even though the lawyers knew the allegations within werent sound, according to the court record. Eastman is now asking the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals for an order telling the House to return or destroy the eight emails.
Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/30/politics/january-6-committee-2020-election-emails/index.html
PSPS
(13,623 posts)AZSkiffyGeek
(11,111 posts)Why the Mar-a-Lago search? Why all the court challenges?
Maybe because he is doing something despite your complaining he isnt?
Scrivener7
(51,058 posts)committed in full view of everyone.
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,111 posts)Theres always some goalposts to be moved. You just cant accept that something is being done without complaining about it.
Scrivener7
(51,058 posts)And hey! Look! I can post without ad hominems!
Can you?
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,111 posts)Now you are arguing that he isnt because Jan 6 or something. So spare me your lectures about ad hominem when I pointed out what he was doing.
Im sorry you arent getting your pony now. But things are being done and anyone saying they arent is being willfully obtuse.
Scrivener7
(51,058 posts)AZSkiffyGeek
(11,111 posts)Maybe take some time to learn about all the people being prosecuted, all the court cases TFG has lost, all the stuff found at M-a-L and stop wishing Garland was acting like Barr.
Joinfortmill
(14,486 posts)jaxexpat
(6,864 posts)1/6 is but a single crime among many committed by TFG. They are actually inseparable since the nature, the MO, of the culprit is to maintain confusion among his people while conducting "management" of his affairs. He is at the center of all this. There is no real separation between the 1/6 insurrection and the fake electors and it will eventually be proven that the documents he took are also part of the whole. It will be an interesting anecdote for future historians, but there will never be a summary.
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,111 posts)Thats just a trite, meaningless statement shouted by people who dont want justice done right. When you rush justice you end up with Kyle Rittenhouse grifting off his killings and not rotting in prison.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)are you aware that your posts are often viewed as unnecessarily abrasive and condescending snark?
You dilute arguments that often deserve conservation.
In general, mutual respect is a feature of DU and it encourages discussion.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,052 posts)It was "post and run", despite several replies and a huge subthread.
There has been almost 24 hours since lobbing such a projectile guaranteed to stir up a thread.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)is for fact-finding and compiling information in order for other Congressional Committees to draft legislation to try to make sure what happened that day, as well as what happened leading up to it and after, doesn't happen again.
Neither the J6 Committee nor Congress are "the police". But they write the laws that the (federal) LEO can use to prosecute.
Mr.Bill
(24,338 posts)and it will be a waste of time if no one enforces them.
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,111 posts)Its cute how people pretend nothing is happening. Theres so much news indicating otherwise.
Mr.Bill
(24,338 posts)Prosecution has been very weak in general. These people tried to overthrow the government, and only a few have been thusly charged. And too many have not been charged so far. Like the masterminds of the whole thing. I am very disappointed so far.
Glad to hear you appear to be happy with it.
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,111 posts)chowder66
(9,088 posts)mcar
(42,418 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,338 posts)I said mostly for minor crimes.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)and go with a Russia-style government instead?
Trust me I get the frustration and it's not like I'm not frustrated too. But then all hell would break loose if we did Ghouliani-Powell Kraken cases that not only lose in court, but get laughed out of court every time, and often with prejudice.
Mr.Bill
(24,338 posts)is not guilty of being illegally in possession of classified documents.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)Tell ME why over the past 50 years, the state of NY and NYC ignored his criminality after nailing him and his father back in 1973. He was able to get chummy with a series of NYC mayors over those years (eventually hiring one of them as a "personal lawyer" ) and it was not until the past year when some movement finally happened against his fraudulent company (not counting the fake "university").
He's been at this for a LONG time.
Mr.Bill
(24,338 posts)except consequences.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)And right now, everyone has been seeing why.
No one wanted to "stay the course" and devote the amount of time and resources (money/people) to pursue it and get through all the court challenges that would ensue, in order to finally reach the end game of having a trial and conviction when there is a refusal to do a plea deal/settlement.
That tortuous process is finally playing out, and it is mind-numbing, but it is what it is.
wnylib
(21,673 posts)that gave several links to some background on Trump and federal relationships regarding some mob people. I can't remember the details or poster, but it amounted to some cases where, to avoid prosecution, Trump acted as an FBI informant in return for a protected status with law enforcement.
It sounds incredible, but some of the links and background in the post made it seem credible that Trump has been protected in the past by federal agencies.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)I wouldn't be surprised if it were related to whatever Ghouliani was doing there in the mid-'80s when he was U.S. Attorney for SDNY and went after people like Michael Milken (who 45 pardoned).
intrepidity
(7,339 posts)Tinker, Tailor, Mobster, Trump
https://gregolear.substack.com/p/tinker-tailor-mobster-trump
Trump said he'd never called the FBI before 'in his whole life,' but he offered to cooperate with the FBI in the 1980s
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-flipping-history-cooperating-fbi-2018-8
Just What Were Donald Trump's Ties to the Mob?
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/donald-trump-2016-mob-organized-crime-213910/
Trumps ties to an informant and FBI agent reveal his mode of operation
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/trumps-ties-to-an-informant-and-fbi-agent-reveal-his-modes-of-operation/2016/09/16/6e65522e-6f9f-11e6-9705-23e51a2f424d_story.html
Netflix's Fear City Hints at Trump's Mob Connections. The Real Story Goes Even Deeper.
https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a33350476/fear-city-new-york-mafia-donald-trump-tower-mob-ties-explained/
wnylib
(21,673 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,537 posts)But we also should face reality.
Half the US members of congress are corrupt and advocate the violent overthrow of the government if it means they can get total permanent power and access to US wealth.
There is no way the DOJ will go after half the US government. They can't.
And a big chunk of the American electorate are fine with this if they can get white, male, christian minority rule.
The American oligarchs bribe corrupt politicians who lie to voters.
Everyone is happy except the American groups being disenfranchised and regulated to second class citizenship.
Those groups are being demonized to the point the public is fine with whatever happens to them.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)and neither was one of my (D) Senators and HOPEFULLY we'll get another good Democrat (Fetterman) to join that other Senator (Casey).
It comes down to turnout to get as may nuts out of office as possible. At least a couple, iike Madison Cawthorn, self-destructed.
Irish_Dem
(47,537 posts)They will for sure install loopholes big enough to drive a truck through.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)HOUSE - H.R.8873 - Presidential Election Reform Act (passed by House last month)
SENATE - S.4573 - Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022
(still being tweaked and is different from the House version)
They will have to come up with a bill that is identical for both chambers to vote on.
Irish_Dem
(47,537 posts)We close one loophole and the GOP will find another way around it.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)but for the SCOTUS to bat all (or parts of it) away. Hopefully whatever gets passed as a final version, will take a step beyond the mess that we experienced in 2020 (and certainly here in PA, we were treated to a taste of it).
But unless some attempt is made rather than hand-wave it all away, then folks better suit up.
DENVERPOPS
(8,865 posts)They are playing a game of kick the can down the road and hoping that they take the house and senate in the 2022 election, and every last thing will just be "disappeared" by the Republican Party.
Ocelot II
(115,909 posts)The committee members are Bennie Thompson, Zoe Lofgren, Adam Schiff, Pete Aguilar, Stephanie Murphy, Jamie Raskin, Elaine Luria, Liz Cheney, and Adam Kinzinger.
Which 4 or 5 of these are the sociopaths and criminals?
Irish_Dem
(47,537 posts)And the GOP judges who refuse to enforce the law.
And the GOP Supreme Court Justices who are corrupt.
wnylib
(21,673 posts)Phoenix61
(17,021 posts)A
wnylib
(21,673 posts)Phoenix61
(17,021 posts)MayReasonRule
(1,463 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 31, 2022, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)
Our country is in the midst of a Spanish Inquisition Y'all Qaeda Style. The majority of members of SCOTUS and the GOP are Nat-C Christo Fascists.
They have three primary goals; intimidation, incarceration, and/or extermination of any and all that dare oppose their unbridled senseless depravity as they promulgate ongoing mass crimes against humanity within our populace and the world writ large. Same Nat-C shit different day.
There is no freedom without reason.
Which is why, reason never desists, reason always resists.
Being a part of the process that works towards the positive change one desires within the area in which that person resides, works and plays is generally a great place for anyone to begin.
It's been suggested to me by others that I work within arms reach of my ass at building constructively meaningful relationships as a primary starting place towards such higher aspirations.
The Machiavellian have always led the Darwin Award Winners down the fabled Primrose Path to collect their due rewards.
What a fool believes, a wise man reasons away.
May reason rule.
leftieNanner
(15,179 posts)You can't get that toothpaste back in the tube
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)TeamProg
(6,305 posts)onecaliberal
(32,934 posts)Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)
Baked Potato This message was self-deleted by its author.
Joinfortmill
(14,486 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,537 posts)Generals at the Pentagon refused to send in help on 1/6.
One of the generals was Gen Charles Flynn (brother to crazy Mike Flynn) who answered the phone on 1/6.
The Army promoted him afterwards.
Another general also refused to send in help on 1/6 and the WH just blocked his promotion which the Army wanted.
Shows you where the Army's loyalty is.
Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #34)
Baked Potato This message was self-deleted by its author.
Irish_Dem
(47,537 posts)For the US military to stand by and let high ranking government officials be killed in broad daylight would have been a scandal.
Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #41)
Baked Potato This message was self-deleted by its author.
jgo
(930 posts)over the last two years that the military dragged their feet on purpose for good reasons. But, I don't know whether it is true or not. The theory was that the Capitol and Metro police did not report to Trump, but the military did. If Trump figured that out, he could have redirected troops inside the Capitol to clear the building and suspend proceedings indefinitely, on the excuse of protection. The generals were supposedly trying to prevent this scenario, the theory goes.
Any ideas?
Response to jgo (Reply #69)
Baked Potato This message was self-deleted by its author.
ancianita
(36,161 posts)Not misdemeanor counts. Felony counts.
bucolic_frolic
(43,375 posts)ancianita
(36,161 posts)The Ninth Circuit is Justice Kagan's federal district. So good luck with even a stay, Eastman.
Cha
(297,818 posts)private emails plotting to Obstruct Justice!!
TY, BRDS!
jgo
(930 posts)I get that some crimes take time to investigate and build a case.
But, why can't the state and/or federal prosecutors simply arrest and prosecute everyone who signed a document as a fake elector. Why is that complicated? - the signature is its own proof.
Why is that not an open and shut case?
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)This is one of the reasons why Congress is attempting to fix the current "Electoral Count Act of 1877" (PDF).
HOUSE - H.R.8873 - Presidential Election Reform Act (passed by House last month)
SENATE - S.4573 - Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022
(still being tweaked and is different from the House version)
Here is a good summary from almost a year ago about the problem -
January 8, 20227:00 AM ET
(snip)
Poorly written legislation
The Electoral Count Act came as a reaction to the presidential election of 1876, which saw Democrat Samuel Tilden win the popular vote but ultimately lose the presidency to Republican Rutherford B. Hayes because of contested election results coming from three Southern states under the control of Reconstruction governments: Florida, South Carolina and Louisiana. The three states each sent in multiple competing electoral returns, and Congress had no rules in place to deal with such a scenario. So, it created an ad hoc commission to decide the presidency, which ended up giving the states' returns, and with them the presidency, to Hayes.
Democrats at the time were furious over the decision and only accepted it in a deal known as the Compromise of 1877, which stipulated that Republicans agreed to end Reconstruction and withdraw federal troops from former Confederate states. A decade later, Congress passed the Electoral Count Act into law to avoid similar situations in the future, but "the crafters of this law unfortunately did a terrible job," says Rebecca Green, the co-director of the Election Law Program at William & Mary Law School. "Some of the processes just don't make sense in the modern world," she said.
The legislation is "extraordinarily complex" and "far from the model of statutory drafting," according to an analysis by the National Task Force on Election Crises (of which Green is a member), but the law does create a framework and timeline for when states need to have their election results finalized. According to the law, the Electoral College is to meet in states across the country on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December to cast their votes. If a state has finalized its results six days before then, according to the ECA, then those results qualify for "safe harbor" status meaning Congress must treat them as the "conclusive" results, even if, for example, a state's legislature sends in a competing set of results.
But the law also allows members of Congress to easily object to results submitted by states and to prolong the counting process, even without legitimate concerns, and according to legal experts, it does not do a good enough job clarifying the vice president's role. Then-Vice President Mike Pence's role became the focus of efforts on Jan. 6, 2021, to overturn the last election. "In our view, modernizing the ECA may well be the single most important step Congress can take to prevent a crisis in the next contested presidential election," writes the National Task Force on Election Crises in its list of recommendations for updating the law.
(snip)
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/08/1071239044/congress-may-change-this-arcane-law-to-avoid-another-jan-6
The states that participated in this scheme did it in various ways in order to exploit the loopholes in the EC Act of 1877, where some (like here in PA) included some kind of disclaimer that may have mitigated the potential illegality of trying to end-run around the real certified Electors (at least according to our (D) Attorney General Josh Shapiro who is also running for governor here). Others were more bold and are currently under a more sweeping investigation, and in some cases, are notably associated with states that have mixed party control when it comes to elections (e.g., AZ with a (R) governor but a (D) SOS).
The pressure campaign to force Mike Pence to subvert what was normally assumed to be a "ceremonial" role as Vice President (and per the Constitution, as "official President of the Senate" ), who would merely read off the votes from each of the states, to instead declare the election "unresolved", and send it back to the state legislatures (in this case, the loon-contested states having GOP state legislative majorities) to resolve and decide who the electors will be, was the final convoluted and purported "legal" attempt to change the election outcome before the end game of an actual violent coup d'etat.
So this is all unprecedented at the level that has manifested.
jgo
(930 posts)From the NYT last summer - "It is a federal crime to knowingly submit false statements or documentation to a federal agency"
Why not go with that? Why does the Electoral Count Act muddy up the water? The fake electors were not elected - no state official or state agency named them or recognized them as such. They decided themselves they were electors - their signatures are on false statements submitted to a federal agency.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)This is generally how the feds "bring charges" (through grand juries).
By Devlin Barrett and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
July 25, 2022 at 7:50 p.m. EDT
Grand jury subpoenas issued last month to two Arizona state lawmakers show the breadth of the criminal investigation by the U.S. attorneys office in Washington into efforts by supporters of Donald Trump to use false electors to try to undo Joe Bidens 2020 election victory. Copies of two subpoenas issued to Republican state senators from Arizona were released Monday via a public-records request, confirming what has been previously reported about the June demands for records related to the signing or mailing of any document purporting to be a Certificate certifying Elector votes in favor of Donald J. Trump and/or Michael R. Pence.
The subpoenas issued to Karen Fann, president of the Arizona Senate, and Sen. Kelly Townsend also seek communications relating to any effort, plan, or attempt to serve as an Elector in favor of the then-president and then-vice president. A subpoena is not an accusation but rather a demand for information that investigators believe may help them solve a crime.
The documents released Monday cast a wide net for any communications that Fann and Townsend may have had with any member of the executive or legislative branch of the federal government; any representative or agent of Trump or his campaign; or Trump boosters Jenna Ellis, Bernard Kerik, Rudy Giuliani, Boris Epshteyn, James Troupis, Joe DiGenova, John Eastman, Joshua Findlay, Justin Clark, Kenneth Chesebro, Mike Roman or Victoria Toensing.
The subpoenas are just one part of a significant escalation and expansion of the Justice Departments criminal probe of the events of and leading up to the Jan. 6, 2021, assault on the U.S. Capitol by Trump supporters seeking to overturn the election results. Around the same time in mid-June, federal agents fanned out in multiple states to serve subpoenas, execute search warrants and interview potential witnesses as part of the investigation into the electors scheme.
(snip)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/07/25/fann-townsend-subpoenas-arizona-trump/
jgo
(930 posts)Why wait while investigating this and searching for every strand? Bring justice on a simple charge now and get a conviction. Continue the investigation and add more charges later if warranted. Seems like analysis paralysis.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)What?
A grand jury has been empaneled and is being given evidence to bring indictments (charges). THAT is the process - https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/charging
This is not Russia or Brazil where you just make shit up and "charge" someone.
jgo
(930 posts)and not suggesting making something up. Look at the timeline. This happened almost two years ago. The grand jury could have been empaneled a long time ago. The documents were in hand. Just do it - make progress on something small, and then do more later. Waiting on more investigations to charge additional crimes has had terrible consequences.
Take what is in front of you, do that first, and then do more later. Taking some sort of action, a year or more ago, against the fake electors who submitted documents would have had some brushback effect on all the election denialism which has grown and festered.
Let's say someone committed 10 crimes. All I am suggesting is moving quickly on crime number 1, with correct process, if the evidence is at hand (in this case a signed document), and coming back later with the investigation and possible charging of the other 9 crimes.
In this case crime #1 is submitting false documents, #2 is fraud, #3 is conspiracy to impede a government function, etc.
I still don't get it, but have an open mind that there might be a legal process reason I don't understand.
BumRushDaShow
(129,693 posts)This "happened" when Bill Barr was still AG.
Joe Biden wasn't inaugurated until January 20, 2021.
Garland wasn't confirmed until months later and then he had to start cleaning house AND remember that who generally directs these at the local level, are the U.S. Attorneys, and there are 94 of them who over those 2 years, have been in the process of being replaced (they were all 45-appointees), which means going through a Senate confirmation process. The busiest one being the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, who was just confirmed barely a year ago.
So far there have been 53 confirmed and 65 nominated
I have written numerous posts over and over on DU about this "timing" thing that people keep bringing up and yes there IS a "legal process". The problem is that people fixate on the WRONG WAY to do a "legal process" - i.e., what we saw the Kraken crew of Ellis, Ghouliani, and Powell do, and assumed that is how "legal" cases are done.
There is no "moving quickly" when it comes to certain types of "crimes" that don't involve actual physical assault, etc. And that requires these grand juries that are NOT like "trial juries". I.e., they are not meeting every day until some case is "settled". They might meet once a month or I saw for one of the grand juries involving J6, they were meeting once a week on Fridays.
At those sessions, the DOJ prosecutors bring in the evidence they have and have witnesses not only testify, but apparently the jurors themselves get to question those witnesses. Much of the delay in that case has been the people subpoenaed either trying to get out of it through the courts or the back and forth of trying to get them scheduled.
Before I retired from the federal government, I had a coworker who was on a federal grand jury and about as much as he could tell me was that he was on it for about a year, and they were only periodically meeting during that time, on average about once every month or two.
So again "the process" is not what people think it is. I.e., it's not "instant" when it comes to these sorts of crimes.
ShazzieB
(16,564 posts)From Wikipedia (bolding added by me):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury
Determining whether to bring charges and what charges to bring is part of the Grand Jury's job. Doing an end run around the GJ in order to charge those people with something RIGHTNOW! would make no rational sense and create a huge mess. If it's even legal, which is a question I'm not qualified to answer.
EDITED TO ADD: I see BumRushDaShow already answered this while I was working on my reply. I'm going to leave this here anyway, in case the Wikipedia link may prove of use to someone.
jgo
(930 posts)I am not saying doing an end run around a Grand Jury. I am suggesting going to a Grand Jury a lot earlier with fewer charges, and then going to another Grand Jury later if there is more evidence and more charges that may possible.
newdayneeded
(1,959 posts)4 that you or I would already be detained wating for trial. Trump gets a house visit to take some documents back, a cordial goodbye from the fbi folks....and that's it.
Blue Owl
(50,532 posts)The hits just keep coming...
Martin68
(22,915 posts)YoshidaYui
(41,867 posts)KS Toronado
(17,383 posts)If you challenge BumRushDaShow about anything, she has a unique way presenting truth without belittling
fellow DUers. We can all learn from her examples on how to be civil, after all we are all Democrats.
calimary
(81,538 posts)I dont get why they dont make copies before court cases come up demanding those emails be returned.