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BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:09 PM Oct 2022

January 6 committee obtains eight emails showing possible planning of post-election crime

Source: CNN Politics

Washington CNN — The House select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol has obtained eight emails from late 2020 that a judge determined show Donald Trump and his lawyers planning to defraud courts and obstruct the congressional vote on the presidency. A new court filing from Trump’s then-attorney John Eastman disclosed that the House said it had accessed the emails on Friday.

The House probe has been fighting for the records for months, and a federal judge cleared the way for the committee to receive them in recent weeks, calling them possible evidence of the planning of crimes on Trump’s behalf. Eastman had tried several last-ditch attempts to hold off the committee. The panel declined to comment to CNN.

The emails that the committee finally has accessed include four communications between Trump attorneys that appear to indicate they knew details they submitted to courts to challenge the election were false, and four emails that reveal them discussing filing lawsuits as a way to hold off congressional certification of Trump’s electoral loss, Judge David O. Carter previously revealed.

One of the emails describes concern the lawyers had about submitting a declaration signed by Trump himself in a lawsuit challenging the election, which said the election fraud allegations it presented to the court were true, the judge’s previous opinion revealed. The Trump-signed statement was sent to court, even though the lawyers knew the allegations within weren’t sound, according to the court record. Eastman is now asking the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals for an order telling the House to return or destroy the eight emails.

Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/30/politics/january-6-committee-2020-election-emails/index.html



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January 6 committee obtains eight emails showing possible planning of post-election crime (Original Post) BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 OP
So? The J6 committee is gone in two months and garland won't do anything anyway. PSPS Oct 2022 #1
If Garland isn't doing anything... AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2022 #3
The Log O' Merde search was not about January 6. That was a different crime he Scrivener7 Oct 2022 #7
And that has what to do with Garland not doing anything? AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2022 #9
And that has what to do with Garland doing anything about January 6? Scrivener7 Oct 2022 #10
"Garland won't do anything" was the statenrnt AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2022 #12
Have a lovely evening. Scrivener7 Oct 2022 #14
You as well AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2022 #15
👍 Joinfortmill Oct 2022 #17
Justice delayed means, in this case, possible justice denied forever. jaxexpat Oct 2022 #48
It doesn't mean that AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2022 #49
You often have very valid points to make and sometimes I actually agree with them. But, Atticus Oct 2022 #56
Yes, it was a provocative bomb dropped by a poster who never returned to the thread Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2022 #61
The point of Congressional Committees like this BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #5
They can pass laws all day long Mr.Bill Oct 2022 #11
You mean like the 800 people being prosecuted? AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2022 #13
Mostly for minor crimes. Mr.Bill Oct 2022 #19
Sad that you are so disappointed at 800+ being prosecuted AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2022 #20
+1 chowder66 Oct 2022 #32
7 years is minor and weak? mcar Oct 2022 #58
How many have been sent to prison for seven years? Mr.Bill Oct 2022 #59
Then we might as well ditch the entire Constitution BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #22
Tell me how Donald Trump, a private citizen, Mr.Bill Oct 2022 #23
Better yet BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #35
He's been handed everything in his lifetime Mr.Bill Oct 2022 #36
Correct. BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #39
There was a post here a couple weeks ago wnylib Oct 2022 #43
I thought I had seen something here along that line BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #46
Here's some that should keep you busy intrepidity Oct 2022 #52
Thanks wnylib Oct 2022 #54
Bum, of course we have to fight the good fight. Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #26
Luckily my (D) Congressman is not one of them BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #47
Half the committee members are sociopaths and criminals. Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #24
Well right now, there is a House version and a Senate version of the Electoral Count BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #27
It is like whack-a-mole. Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #28
Well it might not need for them to create loopholes BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #38
BINGO DENVERPOPS Oct 2022 #66
Except for Cheney and Kinzinger, they're all Democrats. Ocelot II Oct 2022 #29
The GOP ones who will overturn the law when they get the power to do so. Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #30
I think she meant the other committees, not the J6 one. wnylib Oct 2022 #44
Who specifically do you think is a sociopath or criminal? nt Phoenix61 Oct 2022 #31
See my #24 right above your post. wnylib Oct 2022 #45
No disrespect meant but I'd like the poster to answer my question. Phoenix61 Oct 2022 #51
Reason Never Desists, Reason Always Resists MayReasonRule Oct 2022 #57
Sorry John leftieNanner Oct 2022 #2
Not surprising at all. SheltieLover Oct 2022 #4
Come on DOJ... n/t TeamProg Oct 2022 #6
Make it public. onecaliberal Oct 2022 #8
This message was self-deleted by its author Baked Potato Oct 2022 #16
👍 Joinfortmill Oct 2022 #18
He did bribe and control the military on 1/6. Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #34
This message was self-deleted by its author Baked Potato Oct 2022 #40
But if Pence and Pelosi had been killed, it would have been a bad decision. Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #41
This message was self-deleted by its author Baked Potato Oct 2022 #42
There was a theory floated several times ... jgo Oct 2022 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author Baked Potato Oct 2022 #73
Trump & lawyers broke the law -- 18 U.S. Code 371 conspiracy to defraud the United States ancianita Oct 2022 #21
Seems like half the litigation involves trying to suppress evidence bucolic_frolic Oct 2022 #25
Right?? And now Eastman wants the 9th to order the Jan 6 Comte to destroy evidence? Fat chance. ancianita Oct 2022 #33
Wow.. Amazing they can get those Cha Oct 2022 #37
Maybe somebody can help me out ... jgo Oct 2022 #50
Do you have a legal citation/statute to immediately "charge" them with? BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #53
Submitting false documents, fraud, for starters ... jgo Oct 2022 #67
That is why there is at least one grand jury underway to bring those charges BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #68
That's exactly my point ... jgo Oct 2022 #70
"Why wait" BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #71
I obviously know that ... jgo Oct 2022 #74
"This happened almost two years ago." BumRushDaShow Oct 2022 #76
Because that's not how this works? ShazzieB Oct 2022 #72
That is not what I am suggesting ... jgo Oct 2022 #75
I believe this would be Crime number newdayneeded Oct 2022 #55
K&R Blue Owl Oct 2022 #60
I'm worried that time is running out. I want Dump behind bars. Now! Martin68 Oct 2022 #62
私 も YoshidaYui Oct 2022 #63
One thing I noticed reading this thread KS Toronado Oct 2022 #64
Not a lawyer here, but calimary Oct 2022 #65

AZSkiffyGeek

(11,111 posts)
3. If Garland isn't doing anything...
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:19 PM
Oct 2022

Why the Mar-a-Lago search? Why all the court challenges?
Maybe because he is doing something despite your complaining he isn’t?

Scrivener7

(51,058 posts)
7. The Log O' Merde search was not about January 6. That was a different crime he
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:22 PM
Oct 2022

committed in full view of everyone.

AZSkiffyGeek

(11,111 posts)
9. And that has what to do with Garland not doing anything?
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:25 PM
Oct 2022

There’s always some goalposts to be moved. You just can’t accept that something is being done without complaining about it.

Scrivener7

(51,058 posts)
10. And that has what to do with Garland doing anything about January 6?
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:28 PM
Oct 2022

And hey! Look! I can post without ad hominems!

Can you?

AZSkiffyGeek

(11,111 posts)
12. "Garland won't do anything" was the statenrnt
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:32 PM
Oct 2022

Now you are arguing that he isn’t because Jan 6 or something. So spare me your lectures about ad hominem when I pointed out what he was doing.
I’m sorry you aren’t getting your pony now. But things are being done and anyone saying they aren’t is being willfully obtuse.

AZSkiffyGeek

(11,111 posts)
15. You as well
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:35 PM
Oct 2022

Maybe take some time to learn about all the people being prosecuted, all the court cases TFG has lost, all the stuff found at M-a-L and stop wishing Garland was acting like Barr.

jaxexpat

(6,864 posts)
48. Justice delayed means, in this case, possible justice denied forever.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 08:06 PM
Oct 2022

1/6 is but a single crime among many committed by TFG. They are actually inseparable since the nature, the MO, of the culprit is to maintain confusion among his people while conducting "management" of his affairs. He is at the center of all this. There is no real separation between the 1/6 insurrection and the fake electors and it will eventually be proven that the documents he took are also part of the whole. It will be an interesting anecdote for future historians, but there will never be a summary.

AZSkiffyGeek

(11,111 posts)
49. It doesn't mean that
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 08:10 PM
Oct 2022

That’s just a trite, meaningless statement shouted by people who don’t want justice done right. When you rush justice you end up with Kyle Rittenhouse grifting off his killings and not rotting in prison.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
56. You often have very valid points to make and sometimes I actually agree with them. But,
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:31 AM
Oct 2022

are you aware that your posts are often viewed as unnecessarily abrasive and condescending snark?

You dilute arguments that often deserve conservation.

In general, mutual respect is a feature of DU and it encourages discussion.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,052 posts)
61. Yes, it was a provocative bomb dropped by a poster who never returned to the thread
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 01:00 PM
Oct 2022

It was "post and run", despite several replies and a huge subthread.

There has been almost 24 hours since lobbing such a projectile guaranteed to stir up a thread.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
5. The point of Congressional Committees like this
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:20 PM
Oct 2022

is for fact-finding and compiling information in order for other Congressional Committees to draft legislation to try to make sure what happened that day, as well as what happened leading up to it and after, doesn't happen again.

Neither the J6 Committee nor Congress are "the police". But they write the laws that the (federal) LEO can use to prosecute.

AZSkiffyGeek

(11,111 posts)
13. You mean like the 800 people being prosecuted?
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:33 PM
Oct 2022

It’s cute how people pretend nothing is happening. There’s so much news indicating otherwise.

Mr.Bill

(24,338 posts)
19. Mostly for minor crimes.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:42 PM
Oct 2022

Prosecution has been very weak in general. These people tried to overthrow the government, and only a few have been thusly charged. And too many have not been charged so far. Like the masterminds of the whole thing. I am very disappointed so far.

Glad to hear you appear to be happy with it.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
22. Then we might as well ditch the entire Constitution
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:01 PM
Oct 2022

and go with a Russia-style government instead?

Trust me I get the frustration and it's not like I'm not frustrated too. But then all hell would break loose if we did Ghouliani-Powell Kraken cases that not only lose in court, but get laughed out of court every time, and often with prejudice.

Mr.Bill

(24,338 posts)
23. Tell me how Donald Trump, a private citizen,
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:05 PM
Oct 2022

is not guilty of being illegally in possession of classified documents.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
35. Better yet
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:37 PM
Oct 2022

Tell ME why over the past 50 years, the state of NY and NYC ignored his criminality after nailing him and his father back in 1973. He was able to get chummy with a series of NYC mayors over those years (eventually hiring one of them as a "personal lawyer" ) and it was not until the past year when some movement finally happened against his fraudulent company (not counting the fake "university").

He's been at this for a LONG time.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
39. Correct.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:48 PM
Oct 2022

And right now, everyone has been seeing why.

No one wanted to "stay the course" and devote the amount of time and resources (money/people) to pursue it and get through all the court challenges that would ensue, in order to finally reach the end game of having a trial and conviction when there is a refusal to do a plea deal/settlement.

That tortuous process is finally playing out, and it is mind-numbing, but it is what it is.

wnylib

(21,673 posts)
43. There was a post here a couple weeks ago
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 07:22 PM
Oct 2022

that gave several links to some background on Trump and federal relationships regarding some mob people. I can't remember the details or poster, but it amounted to some cases where, to avoid prosecution, Trump acted as an FBI informant in return for a protected status with law enforcement.

It sounds incredible, but some of the links and background in the post made it seem credible that Trump has been protected in the past by federal agencies.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
46. I thought I had seen something here along that line
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 07:55 PM
Oct 2022

I wouldn't be surprised if it were related to whatever Ghouliani was doing there in the mid-'80s when he was U.S. Attorney for SDNY and went after people like Michael Milken (who 45 pardoned).

Irish_Dem

(47,537 posts)
26. Bum, of course we have to fight the good fight.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:16 PM
Oct 2022

But we also should face reality.

Half the US members of congress are corrupt and advocate the violent overthrow of the government if it means they can get total permanent power and access to US wealth.

There is no way the DOJ will go after half the US government. They can't.

And a big chunk of the American electorate are fine with this if they can get white, male, christian minority rule.

The American oligarchs bribe corrupt politicians who lie to voters.

Everyone is happy except the American groups being disenfranchised and regulated to second class citizenship.
Those groups are being demonized to the point the public is fine with whatever happens to them.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
47. Luckily my (D) Congressman is not one of them
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 08:02 PM
Oct 2022

and neither was one of my (D) Senators and HOPEFULLY we'll get another good Democrat (Fetterman) to join that other Senator (Casey).

It comes down to turnout to get as may nuts out of office as possible. At least a couple, iike Madison Cawthorn, self-destructed.

Irish_Dem

(47,537 posts)
24. Half the committee members are sociopaths and criminals.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:06 PM
Oct 2022

They will for sure install loopholes big enough to drive a truck through.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
27. Well right now, there is a House version and a Senate version of the Electoral Count
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:21 PM
Oct 2022

HOUSE - H.R.8873 - Presidential Election Reform Act (passed by House last month)

SENATE - S.4573 - Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022
(still being tweaked and is different from the House version)

They will have to come up with a bill that is identical for both chambers to vote on.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
38. Well it might not need for them to create loopholes
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:42 PM
Oct 2022

but for the SCOTUS to bat all (or parts of it) away. Hopefully whatever gets passed as a final version, will take a step beyond the mess that we experienced in 2020 (and certainly here in PA, we were treated to a taste of it).

But unless some attempt is made rather than hand-wave it all away, then folks better suit up.

DENVERPOPS

(8,865 posts)
66. BINGO
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 04:00 PM
Oct 2022

They are playing a game of kick the can down the road and hoping that they take the house and senate in the 2022 election, and every last thing will just be "disappeared" by the Republican Party.

Ocelot II

(115,909 posts)
29. Except for Cheney and Kinzinger, they're all Democrats.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:30 PM
Oct 2022

The committee members are Bennie Thompson, Zoe Lofgren, Adam Schiff, Pete Aguilar, Stephanie Murphy, Jamie Raskin, Elaine Luria, Liz Cheney, and Adam Kinzinger.

Which 4 or 5 of these are the sociopaths and criminals?

Irish_Dem

(47,537 posts)
30. The GOP ones who will overturn the law when they get the power to do so.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:32 PM
Oct 2022

And the GOP judges who refuse to enforce the law.

And the GOP Supreme Court Justices who are corrupt.

MayReasonRule

(1,463 posts)
57. Reason Never Desists, Reason Always Resists
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 09:45 AM
Oct 2022

Last edited Mon Oct 31, 2022, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Our country is in the midst of a Spanish Inquisition Y'all Qaeda Style. The majority of members of SCOTUS and the GOP are Nat-C Christo Fascists.

They have three primary goals; intimidation, incarceration, and/or extermination of any and all that dare oppose their unbridled senseless depravity as they promulgate ongoing mass crimes against humanity within our populace and the world writ large. Same Nat-C shit different day.

There is no freedom without reason.

Which is why, reason never desists, reason always resists.

Being a part of the process that works towards the positive change one desires within the area in which that person resides, works and plays is generally a great place for anyone to begin.

It's been suggested to me by others that I work within arms reach of my ass at building constructively meaningful relationships as a primary starting place towards such higher aspirations.

The Machiavellian have always led the Darwin Award Winners down the fabled Primrose Path to collect their due rewards.

What a fool believes, a wise man reasons away.

May reason rule.


Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Irish_Dem

(47,537 posts)
34. He did bribe and control the military on 1/6.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:36 PM
Oct 2022

Generals at the Pentagon refused to send in help on 1/6.

One of the generals was Gen Charles Flynn (brother to crazy Mike Flynn) who answered the phone on 1/6.

The Army promoted him afterwards.

Another general also refused to send in help on 1/6 and the WH just blocked his promotion which the Army wanted.

Shows you where the Army's loyalty is.

Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #34)

Irish_Dem

(47,537 posts)
41. But if Pence and Pelosi had been killed, it would have been a bad decision.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 07:10 PM
Oct 2022

For the US military to stand by and let high ranking government officials be killed in broad daylight would have been a scandal.

Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #41)

jgo

(930 posts)
69. There was a theory floated several times ...
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 04:56 PM
Oct 2022

over the last two years that the military dragged their feet on purpose for good reasons. But, I don't know whether it is true or not. The theory was that the Capitol and Metro police did not report to Trump, but the military did. If Trump figured that out, he could have redirected troops inside the Capitol to clear the building and suspend proceedings indefinitely, on the excuse of protection. The generals were supposedly trying to prevent this scenario, the theory goes.

Any ideas?

Response to jgo (Reply #69)

ancianita

(36,161 posts)
21. Trump & lawyers broke the law -- 18 U.S. Code 371 conspiracy to defraud the United States
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 05:55 PM
Oct 2022

Not misdemeanor counts. Felony counts.

ancianita

(36,161 posts)
33. Right?? And now Eastman wants the 9th to order the Jan 6 Comte to destroy evidence? Fat chance.
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 06:36 PM
Oct 2022

The Ninth Circuit is Justice Kagan's federal district. So good luck with even a stay, Eastman.

jgo

(930 posts)
50. Maybe somebody can help me out ...
Sun Oct 30, 2022, 08:19 PM
Oct 2022

I get that some crimes take time to investigate and build a case.

But, why can't the state and/or federal prosecutors simply arrest and prosecute everyone who signed a document as a fake elector. Why is that complicated? - the signature is its own proof.

Why is that not an open and shut case?



BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
53. Do you have a legal citation/statute to immediately "charge" them with?
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 05:55 AM
Oct 2022

This is one of the reasons why Congress is attempting to fix the current "Electoral Count Act of 1877" (PDF).

HOUSE - H.R.8873 - Presidential Election Reform Act (passed by House last month)

SENATE - S.4573 - Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022
(still being tweaked and is different from the House version)


Here is a good summary from almost a year ago about the problem -

Congress may change this arcane law to avoid another Jan. 6

January 8, 20227:00 AM ET

(snip)


Poorly written legislation

The Electoral Count Act came as a reaction to the presidential election of 1876, which saw Democrat Samuel Tilden win the popular vote but ultimately lose the presidency to Republican Rutherford B. Hayes because of contested election results coming from three Southern states under the control of Reconstruction governments: Florida, South Carolina and Louisiana. The three states each sent in multiple competing electoral returns, and Congress had no rules in place to deal with such a scenario. So, it created an ad hoc commission to decide the presidency, which ended up giving the states' returns, and with them the presidency, to Hayes.

Democrats at the time were furious over the decision and only accepted it in a deal known as the Compromise of 1877, which stipulated that Republicans agreed to end Reconstruction and withdraw federal troops from former Confederate states. A decade later, Congress passed the Electoral Count Act into law to avoid similar situations in the future, but "the crafters of this law unfortunately did a terrible job," says Rebecca Green, the co-director of the Election Law Program at William & Mary Law School. "Some of the processes just don't make sense in the modern world," she said.

The legislation is "extraordinarily complex" and "far from the model of statutory drafting," according to an analysis by the National Task Force on Election Crises (of which Green is a member), but the law does create a framework and timeline for when states need to have their election results finalized. According to the law, the Electoral College is to meet in states across the country on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December to cast their votes. If a state has finalized its results six days before then, according to the ECA, then those results qualify for "safe harbor" status — meaning Congress must treat them as the "conclusive" results, even if, for example, a state's legislature sends in a competing set of results.

But the law also allows members of Congress to easily object to results submitted by states and to prolong the counting process, even without legitimate concerns, and according to legal experts, it does not do a good enough job clarifying the vice president's role. Then-Vice President Mike Pence's role became the focus of efforts on Jan. 6, 2021, to overturn the last election. "In our view, modernizing the ECA may well be the single most important step Congress can take to prevent a crisis in the next contested presidential election," writes the National Task Force on Election Crises in its list of recommendations for updating the law.

(snip)

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/08/1071239044/congress-may-change-this-arcane-law-to-avoid-another-jan-6


The states that participated in this scheme did it in various ways in order to exploit the loopholes in the EC Act of 1877, where some (like here in PA) included some kind of disclaimer that may have mitigated the potential illegality of trying to end-run around the real certified Electors (at least according to our (D) Attorney General Josh Shapiro who is also running for governor here). Others were more bold and are currently under a more sweeping investigation, and in some cases, are notably associated with states that have mixed party control when it comes to elections (e.g., AZ with a (R) governor but a (D) SOS).

The pressure campaign to force Mike Pence to subvert what was normally assumed to be a "ceremonial" role as Vice President (and per the Constitution, as "official President of the Senate" ), who would merely read off the votes from each of the states, to instead declare the election "unresolved", and send it back to the state legislatures (in this case, the loon-contested states having GOP state legislative majorities) to resolve and decide who the electors will be, was the final convoluted and purported "legal" attempt to change the election outcome before the end game of an actual violent coup d'etat.

So this is all unprecedented at the level that has manifested.

jgo

(930 posts)
67. Submitting false documents, fraud, for starters ...
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 04:38 PM
Oct 2022

From the NYT last summer - "It is a federal crime to knowingly submit false statements or documentation to a federal agency"

Why not go with that? Why does the Electoral Count Act muddy up the water? The fake electors were not elected - no state official or state agency named them or recognized them as such. They decided themselves they were electors - their signatures are on false statements submitted to a federal agency.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
68. That is why there is at least one grand jury underway to bring those charges
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 04:52 PM
Oct 2022

This is generally how the feds "bring charges" (through grand juries).

Arizona fake-electors subpoenas show breadth of DOJ Jan. 6 probe

By Devlin Barrett and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez

July 25, 2022 at 7:50 p.m. EDT


Grand jury subpoenas issued last month to two Arizona state lawmakers show the breadth of the criminal investigation by the U.S. attorney’s office in Washington into efforts by supporters of Donald Trump to use “false electors” to try to undo Joe Biden’s 2020 election victory. Copies of two subpoenas issued to Republican state senators from Arizona were released Monday via a public-records request, confirming what has been previously reported about the June demands for records related “to the signing or mailing of any document purporting to be a Certificate certifying Elector votes in favor of Donald J. Trump and/or Michael R. Pence.”

The subpoenas issued to Karen Fann, president of the Arizona Senate, and Sen. Kelly Townsend also seek communications “relating to any effort, plan, or attempt to serve as an Elector” in favor of the then-president and then-vice president. A subpoena is not an accusation but rather a demand for information that investigators believe may help them solve a crime.

The documents released Monday cast a wide net for any communications that Fann and Townsend may have had with any member of the executive or legislative branch of the federal government; any representative or agent of Trump or his campaign; or Trump boosters Jenna Ellis, Bernard Kerik, Rudy Giuliani, Boris Epshteyn, James Troupis, Joe DiGenova, John Eastman, Joshua Findlay, Justin Clark, Kenneth Chesebro, Mike Roman or Victoria Toensing.

The subpoenas are just one part of a significant escalation and expansion of the Justice Department’s criminal probe of the events of and leading up to the Jan. 6, 2021, assault on the U.S. Capitol by Trump supporters seeking to overturn the election results. Around the same time in mid-June, federal agents fanned out in multiple states to serve subpoenas, execute search warrants and interview potential witnesses as part of the investigation into the electors scheme.

(snip)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/07/25/fann-townsend-subpoenas-arizona-trump/

jgo

(930 posts)
70. That's exactly my point ...
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 05:00 PM
Oct 2022

Why wait while investigating this and searching for every strand? Bring justice on a simple charge now and get a conviction. Continue the investigation and add more charges later if warranted. Seems like analysis paralysis.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
71. "Why wait"
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 05:11 PM
Oct 2022

What?

A grand jury has been empaneled and is being given evidence to bring indictments (charges). THAT is the process - https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/charging

This is not Russia or Brazil where you just make shit up and "charge" someone.

jgo

(930 posts)
74. I obviously know that ...
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:14 PM
Oct 2022

and not suggesting making something up. Look at the timeline. This happened almost two years ago. The grand jury could have been empaneled a long time ago. The documents were in hand. Just do it - make progress on something small, and then do more later. Waiting on more investigations to charge additional crimes has had terrible consequences.

Take what is in front of you, do that first, and then do more later. Taking some sort of action, a year or more ago, against the fake electors who submitted documents would have had some brushback effect on all the election denialism which has grown and festered.

Let's say someone committed 10 crimes. All I am suggesting is moving quickly on crime number 1, with correct process, if the evidence is at hand (in this case a signed document), and coming back later with the investigation and possible charging of the other 9 crimes.

In this case crime #1 is submitting false documents, #2 is fraud, #3 is conspiracy to impede a government function, etc.

I still don't get it, but have an open mind that there might be a legal process reason I don't understand.

BumRushDaShow

(129,693 posts)
76. "This happened almost two years ago."
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:46 PM
Oct 2022

This "happened" when Bill Barr was still AG.

Joe Biden wasn't inaugurated until January 20, 2021.

Garland wasn't confirmed until months later and then he had to start cleaning house AND remember that who generally directs these at the local level, are the U.S. Attorneys, and there are 94 of them who over those 2 years, have been in the process of being replaced (they were all 45-appointees), which means going through a Senate confirmation process. The busiest one being the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, who was just confirmed barely a year ago.

So far there have been 53 confirmed and 65 nominated

I have written numerous posts over and over on DU about this "timing" thing that people keep bringing up and yes there IS a "legal process". The problem is that people fixate on the WRONG WAY to do a "legal process" - i.e., what we saw the Kraken crew of Ellis, Ghouliani, and Powell do, and assumed that is how "legal" cases are done.

There is no "moving quickly" when it comes to certain types of "crimes" that don't involve actual physical assault, etc. And that requires these grand juries that are NOT like "trial juries". I.e., they are not meeting every day until some case is "settled". They might meet once a month or I saw for one of the grand juries involving J6, they were meeting once a week on Fridays.

At those sessions, the DOJ prosecutors bring in the evidence they have and have witnesses not only testify, but apparently the jurors themselves get to question those witnesses. Much of the delay in that case has been the people subpoenaed either trying to get out of it through the courts or the back and forth of trying to get them scheduled.

Before I retired from the federal government, I had a coworker who was on a federal grand jury and about as much as he could tell me was that he was on it for about a year, and they were only periodically meeting during that time, on average about once every month or two.

So again "the process" is not what people think it is. I.e., it's not "instant" when it comes to these sorts of crimes.

ShazzieB

(16,564 posts)
72. Because that's not how this works?
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 05:19 PM
Oct 2022

From Wikipedia (bolding added by me):

A grand jury is a jury—a group of citizens—empowered by law to conduct legal proceedings, investigate potential criminal conduct, and determine whether criminal charges should be brought.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury


Determining whether to bring charges and what charges to bring is part of the Grand Jury's job. Doing an end run around the GJ in order to charge those people with something RIGHTNOW! would make no rational sense and create a huge mess. If it's even legal, which is a question I'm not qualified to answer.

EDITED TO ADD: I see BumRushDaShow already answered this while I was working on my reply. I'm going to leave this here anyway, in case the Wikipedia link may prove of use to someone.

jgo

(930 posts)
75. That is not what I am suggesting ...
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:17 PM
Oct 2022

I am not saying doing an end run around a Grand Jury. I am suggesting going to a Grand Jury a lot earlier with fewer charges, and then going to another Grand Jury later if there is more evidence and more charges that may possible.

newdayneeded

(1,959 posts)
55. I believe this would be Crime number
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:26 AM
Oct 2022

4 that you or I would already be detained wating for trial. Trump gets a house visit to take some documents back, a cordial goodbye from the fbi folks....and that's it.

KS Toronado

(17,383 posts)
64. One thing I noticed reading this thread
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 03:03 PM
Oct 2022

If you challenge BumRushDaShow about anything, she has a unique way presenting truth without belittling
fellow DUers. We can all learn from her examples on how to be civil, after all we are all Democrats.

calimary

(81,538 posts)
65. Not a lawyer here, but
Mon Oct 31, 2022, 03:21 PM
Oct 2022

I don’t get why they don’t make copies before court cases come up demanding those emails be returned.

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