Joe Biden renews call for assault weapons ban after latest mass shootings

[Omaha Steve]

Source: The Guardian

Maya Yang and agencies Thu 24 Nov 2022 17.57 EST

President says he will seek to pass gun control before new Congress is seated in January, but odds of success are low

Joe Biden reiterated his calls on Thursday to ban assault weapons after mass shootings at a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs on Saturday and a Walmart in Chesapeake, Virginia, on Tuesday left 11 people dead.

While visiting a firehouse on Nantucket Island, Massachusetts, to thank first responders on Thanksgiving, Biden told reporters he would attempt to pass some form of gun control before a new Congress is seated in January, possibly renewing his attempt to ban assault weapons.

“The idea we still allow semi-automatic weapons to be purchased is sick. It’s just sick. It has no, no social redeeming value, zero, none. Not a single solitary rationale for it except profits for gun manufacturers,” Biden said.

“I’m going to try. I’m going to try to get rid of assault weapons,” Biden said.



Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/24/joe-biden-guns-assault-weapons-ban

[MichMan]

1. Is he proposing banning all semi automatic firearms ?

"The idea we still allow semi-automatic weapons to be purchased is sick. It’s just sick. It has no, no social redeeming value, zero, none. Not a single solitary rationale for it except profits for gun manufacturers,” Biden said.


That seems unlikely to me to get enough votes to pass both chambers of congress as it would make large numbers of sporting rifles and handguns illegal.

[twodogsbarking]

3. I think you have accurately described the problem. Well done.

[William Seger]

4. My opinion is we should focus on the ammo

What makes assault rifles deadly is not their "scary look" but the ammo they fire, which is highly engineered to do massive damage to a human body yet light enough that it's easy to carry lots of 30-round clips, so one person can do a huge amount of killing. That's what they were designed for, and that's how they're being used. Ban any semi-automatic that can fire this military grade ammo.

[Zeitghost]

7. You'll need to describe

"military grade ammo". And then describe how it differs from other ammo.

[William Seger]

12. So be it

For starters, the muzzle velocity of an AR-15 is over 3000 fps with the NATO round and almost that fast with the .223 round, which is the main source of its destructive power. Also, military grade ammo usually has a full metal jacket. There is an official definition of "military grade" -- any ammo specified in a DoD contract -- but the law should include any ammo with similar specifications.

[Zeitghost]

13. The .223/5.56 is a light rifle round

What you're asking for is a ban on all centerfire rifle ammunition. That's simply not in the cards.

[William Seger]

15. It could be in the cards, if politicians had the guts

As some sort of sane starting point, I'd specifically target the AR-15 ammo and let hunters sort it out. When gun makers start mass marketing some other type of mass killing machine, add that to the list.

[MichMan]

18. We just had midterms.

It would have been the perfect opportunity to do so, but I dont recall very many running on it.

Even Beto, who said a couple years ago he supported a complete ban, seemed to not think it was a winning message this time and abandoned it.

[NickB79]

20. "the AR-15 ammo"

The AR-15 and it's big brother, the AR-10, are literally chambered in almost EVERY centerfire cartridge known.

There is no AR-specific ammo. Again, you're talking about every deer hunting bullet around.

Goodbye Minnesota. Goodbye Michigan. Goodbye Pennsylvania. They'd all become red states overnight if you even inadvertently messed up deer season. It's that popular.

[William Seger]

22. I am so tired of this shit

[William Seger]

30. If I was an avid hunter...

... then I'd want to be working with legislators to find some way to preserve that activity while making it much, much harder for anyone to get their hands on the kinds of murder machines that we keep seeing used for their intended purpose over and over again.

Instead, all we seem to see from gunners is attempts to make that impossible. I'm so sick of this shit.

[NickB79]

33. I agree with you

I love hunting. Almost all of my rifles are walnut and steel, bolt action rifles. But they fire the same ammo AR's fire. Going after the ammo means guys like me get punished.

IMO, a magazine limit is the only way forward. 5 rounds for rifles, 8-10 for handguns.

[imavoter]

59. I agree with this

because I target practice.
I wouldn't even put a 30 round clip in.
As the gun gets too hot.
I don't see the need for large clips.

[Kaleva]

54. Then do something about it

[imavoter]

58. There's a huge misunderstanding

about what AR means.
I'm not saying you don't know this...I'm adding
to your comment.

AR style is legal, but is the exact same
gun as hunting style rifles.
It's just decoration for how it looks.
Like putting fancy grills on a car.

I didn't understand all this until I started range practice
and got my license.

[EX500rider]

66. The "AR" in Colt AR-15 stands for "ArmaLite Rifle" nt

[Kaleva]

56. AR 15 style guns fire anything from .22 caliber to shotgun shells

[hack89]

27. Do you understand that a full metal jacket makes bullets less lethal?

the requirement for a full metal jacket comes from the Geneva Conventions and was adopted because expanding bullets were considered inhumane due to the horrific injuries they caused. It is a war crime for soldiers to use bullets without a full metal jacket.

[William Seger]

31. Whatever

Sort that out, then, but I'm sure you know the intent, so why not come up with useful suggestions instead of coming up with reasons why we have to allow the current situation to continue.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

32. Look, I understand your's and other's frustrations, I really do,

but the hard simple truth is that the political will for such legislation is simply not there, hell, you won't even get enough votes in the House, nor the Senate, there are pro 2A Dems in the Senate who just won't vote for anything like that and if any such legislation were signed into law by Pres. Biden, it's highly doubtful that the SC, or any court for that matter, would uphold it.

[bluestarone]

63. Man, do i 100% AGREE here! WTH.

The ONLY time this should be talked about is, when we have FULL 100% control of BOTH houses. I mean no possible way we would lose the vote! Look what happened in Texas race. The gun statement by Beto sealed it for Abbott. End of story. I'm 100% in favor of everything about gun control, BUT we gotta be SMART about how we can do it!

[hack89]

36. Why don't you simply advocate for a complete ban on all semiautomatic rifles?

Instead of looking for distinctions that don't really exist. You cannot meaningfully separate "military " features from non--military features and end up with effective laws.

[William Seger]

40. One very obvious distinction that DOES exist...

... is the many millions of AR-15s already sold, which is why controlling ammo would be effective. Make selling NATO and .223 rounds to civilians illegal, retailer or black market, and that would address maybe 95% of the problem. If hunters have to find a different rifle, then that's too bad -- I'm tired of this shit that their rights to own any "arms" they want are sacrosanct and society doesn't have any right to protect itself.

[MichMan]

41. Another distinction is that AR15 are used in a very small number of murders compared to handguns

[DashOneBravo]

46. Thank you.

Is it like 300 a year for all rifles?

[hack89]

42. Absolutely meaningless

You can buy AR-15s in a multitude of calibers and it is very easy to convert a rifle from 5.56 to something else - one reason AR15s are so popular is because their modular construction makes them so easy to modify and customize. I just converted one of mine to 6.5mm.

[Zeitghost]

71. That would do nothing

An AR can be re-chambered in a few minutes with a simple barrel swap and millions of them are already chambered in non-standard (.223/5.56) calibers.

[Kaleva]

55. A bolt action chambered for "military grade" ammo isn't a choice for mass shooters

So the problem isn't the ammo

[NickB79]

9. That would be all semiautomatic rifles then, even hunting rifles

Every deer hunting bullet is designed to cause massive damage so as not wound the deer and cause unnecessary suffering.

And every deer rifle cartridge also penetrates Kevlar body armor.

[MichMan]

11. Do people understand how popular deer hunting is in many states?

and the economic impact ? It is huge in my state. Not only that, deer car collisions cost drivers a tremendous amount of money. I live in a rural area and deer are everywhere. Everytime I drive anywhere I need to be very vigilant. I can't imagine how many there might be without the hunters.

Voting for anything like banning semi automatic weapons or ammo would be political suicide.

[Rebl2]

35. Same in

my state. I am in a suburb, but a wooded area is across the street from me and behind me. I have seen up to eight deer in my yard at times. Normally it’s three or four. I can’t imagine how many deer there would be if we didn’t have deer hunting. I am not one that likes hunting, but it is necessary. If they weren’t hunted, I would imagine disease would eventually run through the population and cause death to a large majority of them. At least with hunting, it’s controlled by the state conservation department. Oh and no, hunting isn’t allowed in my suburb.

[William Seger]

14. If you need to fire 10 rounds at 3000fps within 2 or 3 seconds to bring down a deer

... you should probably take up fishing.

[NickB79]

19. Most semiautomatic deer rifles only hold 3-4 rounds

Browning BAR and Remington 7400, for example. They've been made for 50 years, and there are millions them.

[hack89]

28. Most states have a magazine limit for hunting

Simple solution

[DashOneBravo]

48. I found some data

“Statista researchers pulled data from the FBI’s Crime Data explorer, which does show that of the 17,813 homicides reported in 2020, 662 of them were committed with "personal weapons" — which the site indeed describes as hands, fists, feet, etc. — and 455 homicides were committed with rifles.”

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2022/05/30/fbi-data-deaths-hands-fists-feet-versus-rifles/9960682002/

That’s with all rifles. I couldn’t find a break out for the AR/AK styles.

Have a good weekend.

[William Seger]

49. And what exactly is your point? (nt)

[DashOneBravo]

50. I'm off the board until Monday morning

[groundloop]

53. gun humpers will always find a loophole

[XorXor]

67. Putting aside whether it's possible or if it would solve the issue, at least it makes sense

Such a ban would also include the equally deadly semi-automatic handguns and rifles that typically don't get the same focus as AR-type rifles that currently all the rage with the mass shooters. One of the recent shootings was done with a handgun. Most gun deaths are via handguns. So, setting aside the debate on if banning semi-automatics is the best route to go or not, the fact is that if we're going to consider it, then it really should be ALL semi-automatic weapons that are equally capable of being used in mass shootings. We'd expend a bunch of political capital to make banning only certain firearms, but then realize that it doesn't make much of a dent in the mass shootings because they just start using handguns.

If we go that route, then go all the way so that the pros of it outweigh the cons. I've taken this stance a few times on here, and have yet to have read a convincing argument for why I should reconsider my view. Bearing in mind that my view isn't that we should nessercarily go down that path (I understand the arguments against it, but that's a different discussion/debate), but rather that if we do go down that path, then it should be 100% and not half-assed.

[mahina]

2. Bless him

That’s my President.

[kimbutgar]

5. Sadly even if Republican politicians family members were shot in a mass shooting by an assault

Weapon they’d still support assault weapons because they don’t want to miss out on that NRA money to their campaigns.

[Doc_Technical]

6. Why don't we ban

civilian ownership of semi-automatic firearms
that have detachable magazines?

[Zeitghost]

8. The simple answer

Is we don't have the political support to do so.

For more complex reasons, look at the mess in CA with trying to ban detachable mags. The legal definition of "detachable" became a real issue.

[MichMan]

10. How would you suggest all the ones currently owned be confiscated ?

[William Seger]

17. Could just make it illegal to sell them except to the government

If people don't want to sell ones they have to a buy-back program, we can't hunt them down, but selling them to anyone other than the government might be more risk than it's worth -- especially if they were sold to someone who ought not be in possession of that lethality. The point is, these things are far too easy to get, and even if we can't eliminate them, we can damn sure make them much harder to get than they are now.

[hack89]

29. Can't do it at the federal level

Can only ban manufacture, import and sale using the commerce clause of the constitution. States can ban ownership.

[MichMan]

37. Most state bans are reversed by the courts

[Frasier Balzov]

16. Didn't the Walmart manager use a handgun?

Expect that fact to be pointed out by those who are opposed to giving up personal firepower of any kind.

[IronLionZion]

21. I like how many DUers keep saying it can't be done

in the only country where mass shootings regularly happen.

[Stuart G]

23. LIE...IT CAN BE DONE..ANYTHING CAN BE DONE. LOOK WE ELECTED TRLUMP & THAT IS PROOF OF "ANYTHING"

[IronLionZion]

24. We can do anything if we get enough support

which must be growing with each mass shooting. Gun nuts are loud but there must be fewer of them as time goes on. I know very few people who are actually into sport shooting.

[Stuart G]

25. No sane person is against "Strong Regulations against gun ownership"

[IronLionZion]

26. Make them jump through hoops

mass shooters are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Most are failures at life.

[NickB79]

34. We just lost the House to the GOP gun nuts

The same GOP that has done nothing about mass shootings for 20+ years.

And we barely held the Senate. And that's with the Roe wave boosting Democratic turnout. Without it we would have lost the Senate and even more House seats, IMO.

We see schools shot up and America STILL doesn't vote the fuckers out. Beto lost Texas despite the horror of Uvalde.

The average American just doesn't seem to care about gun control that much, it seems. Broad support in polls for more gun control, but shallow as a puddle come elections.

[Bayard]

38. We're with you, Joe!

People have been hunting deer for thousands of years without machine guns.

The public does NOT need military weapons. Period.

[MichMan]

39. Given that the vast majority of murders are committed with handguns

Accounting for dozens and dozens of killings every single weekend by gangs, revenge killings, robberies and drive by shootings. The families of those victims grieve just as much for their loved ones.

I dont understand the fixation on assault rifles when they are responsible for a small fraction of all gun violence.

Waiting for someone here to post about their brilliant idea to tax bullets for $1000 each to circumvent the 2nd amendment.

[William Seger]

44. How about we take one fucking problem at a time?

My recent "fixation on assault rifles" stems from living about 2 miles from Club Q. I've lived here the entire 21 years it was open and never heard of the place before, that's how low-key it was. I really don't know if anyone I know was there. A few years ago, my pool league had a ladies team that played out of a gay bar, so I went there many times without a problem, but it's closed. Last Friday, I went to hear a friend's band at a bar that frequently has drag shows, and they're not low-key -- they advertise it proudly. So, yeah, lately I've had this "fixation" on how easy it was for someone like an Aldrich to get his hands on an ASSAULT weapon and kill 5 people and wound 17 in about a minute.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

45. How about we don't!

Piecemeal thinking has got us where we are. 20,000+ laws (state and federal) with very little EFFECTIVE leadership on either side. IMO this will take some well focused efforts on several fronts.

I respect your anger and your drive to accomplish something.

The deadliest school shooting and 3rd deadliest of all shootings was Va. Tech. No rifles were used. Not the deadliest mass murder at a school. That record is still the Bath, MI grade school in 1928.

It is, IMO, "too easy" and also too difficult to remove those guns once they've been acquired.

We have 2 strikes against us:
First, it's in our nature to kill each other.
Second, we keep getting better at it.

[Kaleva]

51. One can do the same thing with a semi-auto pistol

They have the advantage of being lighter, and conceable.

Which is probably why a large percentage of murders are committed with them .

[The Grand Illuminist]

43. In today's standpoint.....

They'll just build their own.

[twodogsbarking]

47. We all know what doing the same thing and expecting different results is called.

America.

[imavoter]

57. Does anyone know what the law was that passed under Clinton?

I understand that law is expired, but
what were the specifics?

When I'm at the gun range, I don't see a lot
of one shot hunting guns although I have one.
And I don't see many revolvers.

It's pretty standard now that a lot of handguns
and sport rifles are semi auto.
I have several handguns and two hunting rifles
that use clips, most commonly 6 to 8 shots.
It's handy for hunting but especially target practice.

-for those that don't know, you have to pull the
trigger for each bang, there's a clip that works on
a spring to reload.

Semi autos are ubiquitous. I would support licensing and insurance like cars, some kind of national database for those that can't have guns, tougher penalties for those that provide guns to those that shouldn't have them.

Just don't know how this would work. 30 round clips are not necessary. But all my guns have a 6 or 8 round clips.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

60. The federal AWB of 1994:

The 10-year ban was passed by the U.S. Congress on August 25, 1994 and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 13, 1994.[1] The ban applied only to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment. It expired on September 13, 2004, in accordance with its sunset provision. Several constitutional challenges were filed against provisions of the ban, but all were rejected by the courts. There have been multiple attempts to renew the ban, but none have succeeded.
...
Under the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994, the definition of "semi-automatic assault weapon" (SAW) (commonly shortened to assault weapon) included specific semi-automatic firearm models by name, and other semi-automatic firearms that possessed two or more from a set certain features:

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and has two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash hider or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
Barrel shroud safety feature that prevents burns to the operator
A manufactured weight of 50 ounces (1.41kg) or more when the pistol is unloaded
A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds
Detachable magazine.

The law also categorically banned the following makes and models of semi-automatic firearms and any copies or duplicates of them, in any caliber:...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

[imavoter]

61. Thanks. n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

62. I will add...

...my understanding is that the grenade launcher named in the wiki page should read capable of mounting a grenade launcher.

FYI: There are many full-auto rifles such as anything from a vintage 1930s Thompson (M1928) to an M134 Minigun legally owned in private possession.

[MichMan]

69. Are grenades even available for sale ?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

70. Probably but...

...I'm not sure if ATF classes them as simply explosives or AOW (Any other weapons). Either way the background check is much more involved than an NICS BGC at a gun shop. Local chief LEO, $200 stamp from ATF after their check. I understand it's a 6-9 month circus. I would think the same exercise for the real M-16 and the M203 underbarrel launcher.

Of course IEDs can be made from, as Burt Gummer says, "A few household chemicals in the proper proportions."

Two things I note that present major problems for humans:
As Arnold said in T2: "It's in your nature to destroy yourselves."
As I say: "We keep getting better at it."

Sorry, I'm a movie buff.

[manicdem]

68. 1994 awb didn't do anything

It just banned some minor features of the rifle, but the rifles themselves were still manufactured and plentiful. I bought 2 AR15s during the ban, the only difference the ban did was muzzle brake replaced the flash suppressor, and a fixed stock replaced the collapsible stock. It didnt change the way the rifle shoots. It came with a 10rnd magazine, but 30 round magazines we're still plentiful to buy. Other than that, it was the same rifle.

Any studies that show crimes were down due to the awb was a fraud as the awb sounds good to people, but didn't actually do anything.

I blame the criminals not the gun. Usually there are many warning signs and actions that could be done to stop the person in mass shootings before it happens. I support red flag laws and mandatory background checks. But we need to lock up or institutionalize all these crazies before they do something.

[Kid Berwyn]

64. Thanks, Joe!

Another great idea, the solution to mass shootings is getting rid of guns used for mass shooting.

[bluestarone]

65. What really blows me away is the fact that

Bird hunters are allowed ONLY THREE shells in there shotguns! But KILLERS with Assault weapons no rules as to how many magazines they carry?? Give me a fucin break.

[ck4829]

72. K&R