Signs mount of possible Israeli invasion of Gaza

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-Excite

By AMY TEIBEL and KARIN LAUB

JERUSALEM (AP) - Israeli aircraft pummeled the rocket arsenals of Gaza militants on Friday and signaled a ground invasion might be growing near as troops, tanks and armored personnel carriers massed near Israel's southern border with the Palestinian territory.

Fighting between the two sides escalated sharply Thursday with a first-ever militant attack on the Tel Aviv area, menacing Israel's heartland. No casualties were reported, but three people died in the country's rocket-scarred south when a projectile slammed into an apartment building.

The death toll in the densely populated Palestinian territory climbed to 19, including five children according to Palestinian health officials, as waves of Israeli fighter planes and drones sent missiles hurtling down on suspected weapons stores and rocket-launching sites.

The fighting has already widened the instability gripping a region in the throes of war and regime upheavals. Most immediately, it is straining already frayed relations with Egypt, which plans to send its prime minister to Gaza later Friday in a show of solidarity with its militant Hamas rulers.

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20121116/DA2IRFJ81.html

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Israeli soldiers ride on top of an armored personal carrier close to the Israel Gaza Border, southern Israel, Thursday, Nov. 15, 2012. Israel's prime minister says the army is prepared for a "significant widening" of its operation in the Gaza Strip. Benjamin Netanyahu told reporters on Thursday that Israel has "made it clear" it won't tolerate continued rocket fire on its civilians. (AP Photo/Ariel Schalit)

[lalalu]

1. Not our problem.

Let them just fight each other until they knock each other off or fall out from exhaustion. I am tired of this nonsense. They will never get along.

[defacto7]

3. They will never get along....

That's an understatement. It's been going on for generation after generation after generation.... in one way or another.

[lalalu]

39. Exactly

[Fire Walk With Me]

5. There is a humanitarian toll which is unacceptable. And the big guns have ties

with these and surrounding countries. This is very bad and must be prevented.

[lalalu]

38. You are welcome to get

your gun and go over there and stop it. Good luck with that. In the last few decades we have gotten into wars with the humanitarian spiel.

[Scootaloo]

19. It is our problem, actually

The politicians we elect perpetuate this conflict and evidently have no interest in seeing it end. Those politicians that we elect send the tax money they collect from us to needlessly arm and protect the already-powerful military of one side of the conflict. Those same US politicians speak with our voice in the UN when they oppose any grants or considerations for the other side of the conflict, perpetually working to block an avenue to the outcome they pretend to seek.

it very much is your problem, just as it is mine, because so long as the US keeps its thumb on the scale and perpetuates the conflict, the blood of both Palestinians and Israelis is running over our fingers.

Welcome to the responsibilities of a democracy, lalalu.

[lalalu]

37. No it is not our problem

They also have a democracy and need to take responsibility for what their leaders do. It is that type of thinking that keeps getting us in wars.

[hrmjustin]

2. I wonder if Netanyahu is doing this for the elections coming up.

[MisterScruffles]

7. RE: I wonder if Netanyahu is doing this for the elections coming up.

Doubtful. This had to do with Hamas breaking a temporary peace treaty with a barrage of 100's of rockets.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Which temporary peace treaty was this?

I've never heard of it. When's it supposed to have started, and when was it broken?

[MisterScruffles]

13. Blame Egypt

They brokered it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-24/hamas-israel-truce-holds-overnight-as-no-rockets-fired.html

[Violet_Crumble]

14. I'll leave you to do any blaming you want to do...

Me, I'm wondering how Israel manages to agree to a ceasefire with a group they refuse to recognise. Also, Netanyahu and his extremist gang have been busting to invade Gaza. As with all extreme RW types, they have very short memories and don't recall how little came out of the last time that happened, except for lots and lots of dead Palestinians...

[MisterScruffles]

18. Extremist gang?

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Are you trying to deny that Nutty and his ministers are extremists??

Or are you trying the 'they're not as bad as that bunch over there!' line?

Neither are going to end well...

[MisterScruffles]

24. By far the lesser of two evils

They would be extremists- except that Hamas has shown itself to be willing to use children as suicide bombers. If Hamas were peaceful, nonviolent protestors, then Bibi would be a monster. Hamas' charter says: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” Trying to equate a guy who is somewhat warlike with a group actively calling for genocide is either stupid or dishonest.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. What do you mean, 'they would be extremists - except'??

They ARE extremists. They're RW extremists who've tried to pass (and in some cases succeeded) law that discriminates against Arab citizens of Israel, that has made it a crime for Israel to call for boycotting of settlements in the West Bank (that's a big Fuck You to Free Speech from Bibi and co), and some of who have called for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank. Let's not forget the Likud Charter which claims all of the territory between the Jordan and the Mediterranean is part of Israel.

Here's why yr attempt to do the 'look! but that bunch are worse!' thing just doesn't work. Pointing out that someone else is worse doesn't excuse the bad behaviour (in this case extremist RW nuttery) of the first bunch. It's kinda like someone saying that Dubya was a mass murdering piece of crap, and someone popping up and going 'He would be a mass murdering piece of crap - except <insert name here of someone who's got a bigger tally under their belt than Dubya> does this and does that and here's a whole bunch of vids from YouTube that will make you forget all about Dubya!'

It doesn't work...

I noticed in another thread where you posted that you appear to be living in the past. Hamas haven't carried out any suicide bombings for years now, let alone used kids. Not that it's a good idea to bring up kids, seeing how the IDF has a tendency to kill Palestinian kids and write them off as merely being collateral damage.

I guess you'll fire back a salvo of YouTube clips of something or other in response. Far be it for me to suggest that whoever told you doing so was an effective debate tactic was having a lend of you

[MisterScruffles]

31. Shooting someone who is trying to kill you is self defense.

"Here's why yr attempt to do the 'look! but that bunch are worse!' thing just doesn't work. Pointing out that someone else is worse doesn't excuse the bad behaviour (in this case extremist RW nuttery) of the first bunch." That wasn't my arguement. Bibi is an idiot, but his actions are far from comparable to those of Hamas.

"Hamas haven't carried out any suicide bombings for years now, let alone used kids. Not that it's a good idea to bring up kids, seeing how the IDF has a tendency to kill Palestinian kids and write them off as merely being collateral damage." Achoo. Scuse me, I'm allergic to bullshit. One of the videos shows Hamas using a 14 year old suicide bomber. I guess documented, measured reality has a Zionist bias to you.

"Far be it for me to suggest that whoever told you doing so was an effective debate tactic was having a lend of you" The videos show Hamas committing atrocities. If clear and substantive evidence won't change your mind, join the Republican party.

[Scootaloo]

33. Actually yes, that was your argument

The point was made that Bieberman and the Grand Ayatollah Yisrai are an "extremist gang"

Your response was "BOOGA BOOGA HAMAS BOOGA HAMAS BOOGA BOOGA!"

There wasn't a comparison made... except by you, in your attempt to excuse the actions of one, with the actions of the other.

My advice to you is the same as my advice to all the Israel "Supporters" who wander around here... At least figure out what your own argument is before you try to use it against the positions of others.

[MisterScruffles]

34. No it wasn't

And if you actually bothered to ask me what it was, or payed any attention at all to the board, that would be clear.

"Your response was "BOOGA BOOGA HAMAS BOOGA HAMAS BOOGA BOOGA!""
Creating a childish strawman and then knocking it over does not require a great deal of talent, and doesn't imply honesty on the part of the person making it.

My argument wasn't that Bibi's misdeeds were excused by those of Hamas; my argument was that they were to some degree possibly justified, and trivial in comparison.

[Scootaloo]

35. Well, yes, it was

You can backpedal and give all the semantic gibberish you want, Scruffles. Your response to the statement that Bibi and his cabinet are an "extremist gang" was to simply go "Extremist gang?" and then flood the thread with videos of Hamas (which by the way, makes scrolling kind of herky-jerky... just a technical FYI)

In effect? "BOOGA BOOGA HAMAS BOOGA HAMAS BOOGA BOOGA!"

it was a deflection of the accusation against Bibi and Buddies. You offered no argument of substance, you simply spammed videos. When VC asked you what on earth your argument was, you gave some sort of attempt at a "lesser of two evils" argument.

You are the one who drew the comparison to Hamas. You did so in order to deflect a statement made from Bibi and Buddies and argue that what Bibi and Buddies does is okay because what Hamas does is worse (on some undefined scale o' villainy)

You're using Hamas as an excuse for the extremism of Bibi and his buddies, and arguing that that extremism should be dismissed BECAUSE HAMAS.

Again. Learn what your own argument is before you use it.

[MisterScruffles]

36. Have fun knocking over strawmen

"it was a deflection of the accusation against Bibi and Buddies. You offered no argument of substance, you simply spammed videos. When VC asked you what on earth your argument was, you gave some sort of attempt at a "lesser of two evils" argument."The videos were the evidence. If you were concerned about being intellectually honest, you would have tried to figure what angle I was coming from before arguing against my position.

"You are the one who drew the comparison to Hamas."Wow! Amazing! You got something right!

"You did so in order to deflect a statement made from Bibi and Buddies and argue that what Bibi and Buddies does is okay because what Hamas does is worse (on some undefined scale o' villainy)" No, the actions of Hamas do not "excuse" or "make okay" Bibi's actions, but they may "justify" or "explain" his actions. Do you know what those words mean, or do I need to link to a dictionary for you?

"You're using Hamas as an excuse for the extremism of Bibi and his buddies, and arguing that that extremism should be dismissed BECAUSE HAMAS." That's not what I'm arguing. Telling someone what their argument is and than arguing against that position is pretty intellectually dishonest, and does not speak well of you as a person.

[Comrade Grumpy]

43. The decades-long occupation of Palestinian lands is "trivial"?

Ha ha ha.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

41. Hey Violet -

Were you here during Israel's attacks on Lebanon? When they started DU was suddenly hit by a whole bunch of new pro-Israel posters. Also found online were a bunch of articles about how pro-Israel groups were using social media to try and effect public opinion.

Just sayin'.

[crunch60]

29. Gaza is Obama's Warsaw Ghetto I am sorry to say

Even a single night in jail is enough to give a taste of what it means to be under the total control of some external force. And it hardly takes more than a day in Gaza to begin to appreciate what it must be like to try to survive in the world’s largest open-air prison, where a million and a half people, in the most densely populated area of the world, are constantly subject to random and often savage terror and arbitrary punishment, with no purpose other than to humiliate and degrade, and with the further goal of ensuring that Palestinian hopes for a decent future will be crushed and that the overwhelming global support for a diplomatic settlement that will grant these rights will be nullified.

The intensity of this commitment on the part of the Israeli political leadership has been dramatically illustrated just in the past few days, as they warn that they will “go crazy” if Palestinian rights are given limited recognition at the UN. That is not a new departure. The threat to “go crazy” (“nishtagea”) is deeply rooted, back to the Labor governments of the 1950s, along with the related “Samson Complex”: we will bring down the Temple walls if crossed. It was an idle threat then; not today.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. While things are really bad in Gaza, it's not like the Warsaw Ghetto...

I think bringing the Warsaw Ghetto into things distracts from the real hardship endured by the population of Gaza, because people immediately focus on the Holocaust and then a flurry of godwinising greets the initial godwinising.

There's plenty of things Gaza can be compared to, and plenty of images evoked to display how horrible things are in Gaza, but the Warsaw Ghetto isn't one of them...

I agree with the rest of yr post, especially with the Israeli govt wanting to crush Palestinian hopes for a decent future. The complete hysteria and overreaction when Palestine was given membership on UNESCO showed so totally that Israel has no wish at all for any sort of slightly independent Palestinian state to emerge at any point in the future...

[azurnoir]

15. Israel broke on Wednesday with a tarheted assassination

the truce had been in effect for a short time but of course the story is that......... and if it gets repeated enough well you know

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Figured there'd be more to it than what I was initially told...

I hadn't been following what's been going on as I've been a bit busy with other stuff. Thanks for the additional info

[MisterScruffles]

17. Re: Israel broke on Wednesday with a tarheted assassination

First off, what's a "tarheted" assassination? Second off, Are you denying that Hamas launched 100's of rockets towards Israeli territory the day before?

[Violet_Crumble]

21. You've never heard of targetted assassinations?

Wow. They're that thing Israel does where it doesn't bother with courts and becomes judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one. And the attitude is tough shit to any civilians nearby who get killed along with the target....

[MisterScruffles]

25. Not quite

It's where you kill a guy that has been raining bombs into civilian areas. Did you cry when Bin Laden died, too?

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Like I said, it's playing judge, jury and executioner...

You may support bypassing the whole idea of being found guilty by a court, but many left-wingers don't, and respect the rule of law. See, not carrying out targetted assassinations in the way the IDF does would mean not having lots of civilians, including children, killed and then labelled as nothing but collateral damage because they were nearby wherever it happened.

No, I didn't cry when Bin Laden died Do you always ask random and unrelated bizarre questions at the end of yr posts?

[MisterScruffles]

32. You don't understand the concept of Self-Defense.

"You may support bypassing the whole idea of being found guilty by a court, but many left-wingers don't, and respect the rule of law. See, not carrying out targetted assassinations in the way the IDF does would mean not having lots of civilians, including children, killed and then labelled as nothing but collateral damage because they were nearby wherever it happened." I notice you've made no mention of the hundreds of rockets raining down on Israel. I guess the lives of Israelis do not matter to you.

"No, I didn't cry when Bin Laden died Do you always ask random and unrelated bizarre questions at the end of yr posts?" Do think the US had the right to kill Bin Laden?

[magellan]

28. Speaking for myself

I cry when innocent civilians are killed no matter who they are or what the cause. But once again, as always, neither side is willing to stop killing innocents to make their point. There's no moral ground to stand on when you're willing to sacrifice innocent lives in an endless, pointless tit for tat.

[hrmjustin]

42. Welcome to DU my friend.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

8. Hahahahaha, ya think?

[kestrel91316]

4. I don't have a dog in this fight. I dislike both groups for many reasons,

and I also recognize that there are MANY good people and innocent victims on both sides of the conflict.

Nobody is going to stop with this crap until the "holy land" is bombed to glass and uninhabitable, I'm afraid.

[MisterScruffles]

6. Israel may attack Gaza; IN OTHER BREAKING NEWS

Water wet, grass green, Pope Catholic, and hurricanes windy.

[backwoodsbob]

9. Hamas shoots hundreds of rockets into isreal:IN OTHER BREAKING NEWS

Water wet,grass green,Pope Catholic,and hurricanes windy

[triplepoint]

10. IDF is Flying American-made Fighter Aircraft

Gee, did they get those for free or just find them in the Sinai? We freely arm Israel; our Middle East Pitbull well, and keep that religious nation state fed and watered......Israel is our surrogate Middle East Hegemony Enforcer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force

It's one thing to claim that Israel has the right to defend itself. It's quite another to give them the means to do so and then some...

[Socal31]

11. I'm not really sure that is a good point.

Iran flies US aircraft. So did Iraq.

My problem is that my tax money goes to "subsidize" them, not the fact that we made them.

[triplepoint]

20. Thanks...I needed to spell that out in my post

I updated the post with that remark.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. Iran has American aircraft left over from the Shah

and damned few of those after 30+ years. They grounded the last of their F14's a few years back for lack of parts. And Iraq under Saddam Hussein never had any US-made combat aircraft; the Iraqi air force flew French and Soviet/Russian-made planes and helicopters, the only US-made planes in Iraqi service were Lockheed Jetstars (executive/business jet).

[Socal31]

40. You are correct on Iraq.

However the common refrain of their F-14s being mothballed was challenged recently during their air drill:

http://www.malaysiandigest.com/world/165621-iran-launches-large-scale-air-defense-drill.html

[bamacrat]

44. This will never end, even if Palestine gets freedom. n/t