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BigmanPigman

(55,171 posts)
Tue May 30, 2023, 11:49 PM May 2023

Manson follower Leslie Van Houten should be paroled, California appeals court rules

Source: AP News

"A California appeals court said Tuesday that Leslie Van Houten, who participated in two killings at the direction of cult leader Charles Manson in 1969, should be released from prison on parole."

"The appellate court’s ruling reverses an earlier decision by Gov. Gavin Newsom, who rejected parole for Van Houten in 2020. She has been recommended for parole five times since 2016. All of those recommendations were rejected by either Newsom or former Gov. Jerry Brown. Newsom could request that California Attorney General Rob Bonta petition the state Supreme Court to stop her release. Bonta’s office referred questions to Newsom’s office, which didn’t respond to queries about possible next steps."

"Van Houten, now in her 70s, is serving a life sentence for helping Manson and other followers kill Leno LaBianca, a grocer in Los Angeles, and his wife, Rosemary."

"Newsom has said that Van Houten still poses a danger to society. In rejecting her parole, he said she offered an inconsistent and inadequate explanation for her involvement with Manson at the time of the killings."

Read more: https://apnews.com/article/charles-manson-leslie-van-houten-parole-california-governor-newsom-d44bba07c2714c6cc3ad0bf11330284f

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Manson follower Leslie Van Houten should be paroled, California appeals court rules (Original Post) BigmanPigman May 2023 OP
Recommended. H2O Man May 2023 #1
I think she should rot in jail and consider herself lucky BigmanPigman May 2023 #2
well, if they find evidence she participated in other murders, charge her Skittles May 2023 #5
She wielded the knife and killed the LaBiancas....no parole. Governor Newsome is right. Demsrule86 May 2023 #9
that logic isn't used, or there would be treestar May 2023 #38
Honestly, I don't see why you would but it is the law...even Manson had parole hearings...doesn't Demsrule86 May 2023 #41
For the sake of accuracy, H2O Man May 2023 #39
I am aware of this...however, it is a possibility not a sure thing...her crime was so brutal- Demsrule86 May 2023 #40
REALLY THIS 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻 LenaBaby61 May 2023 #7
I agree with you. Demsrule86 May 2023 #10
It would be interesting to see if they've made progress in the last 11 yrs since that article uppityperson May 2023 #26
I hear you. H2O Man May 2023 #28
Totallly agree. NH Ethylene May 2023 #36
I am of the belief that Leslie Van Houten would not be a danger to society... jstephenj Jun 2023 #58
Interesting. H2O Man Jun 2023 #63
I am of the belief that Leslie Van Houten would not be a danger to society... jstephenj Jun 2023 #59
This message was self-deleted by its author LudwigPastorius Jun 2023 #85
She should stay in jail. Where's she gonna go anyway... brush May 2023 #31
Agree canetoad May 2023 #3
It is not vengence or retribution...it is justice. She showed no mercy to her victims now did she? Demsrule86 May 2023 #12
She was NINETEEN years old tenderfoot May 2023 #21
She needs to remain under the jail until death. Lucky Luciano May 2023 #24
There are people that have done just as bad to worse that are walking around freely tenderfoot May 2023 #25
And those people should not have been released either, MarineCombatEngineer May 2023 #49
She is a vicious murderer and her age doesn't change that. 16 times she stabbed a helpless woman Demsrule86 May 2023 #42
So that means she was an adult. MarineCombatEngineer May 2023 #47
Because every 19-yr-old gruesomely murders people n/t f_townsend Jun 2023 #60
+100. nt MarineCombatEngineer Jun 2023 #61
She escaped both of those though as she originally was sentenced to death so she should be grateful cstanleytech Jun 2023 #79
She stabbed Rosemary LaBianca 16 times...she is a monster. And belongs in jail. I can't Demsrule86 May 2023 #14
She also helped hold her down while her husband was killed ripcord May 2023 #33
Rosemary was stabbed a total of 41 times by the two of them. spike jones May 2023 #37
VanHouton...said at a parole hearing that 'it was around 16 times'...probably lying although that is Demsrule86 May 2023 #43
I certainly agree, she needs to die in jail. spike jones May 2023 #50
yes, she should be Skittles May 2023 #4
Yes. No political leader wants to be the one to free a criminal whose crimes were on front pages 3Hotdogs May 2023 #8
Right. H2O Man May 2023 #18
correct Skittles May 2023 #29
You do understand that their are Black man who have been in jail for being present during a Demsrule86 May 2023 #13
It appears that H2O Man May 2023 #22
-I call bullshit on that...I think she needs to remain in jail. Demsrule86 May 2023 #44
Perhaps you could H2O Man May 2023 #51
Felony murder involves a lot more than just "being present" at a crime scene Mysterian May 2023 #27
She personally stabbed LaBianca...I would say that makes her dangerous. Demsrule86 May 2023 #45
I agree with that Mysterian May 2023 #48
There is one case in PA where Fetterman got him out...the kid was a cousin or a friend...saw Demsrule86 Jun 2023 #72
Seems your memory is a bit faulty Mysterian Jun 2023 #73
The full decision SouthBayDem May 2023 #6
I had oral argument before Division 1 in October hardluck May 2023 #30
I read that treestar Jun 2023 #56
I say she can be paroled when her body temperature reaches 40 degrees F Ray Bruns May 2023 #11
That is it. Demsrule86 May 2023 #15
It still makes me sick after so many years. twodogsbarking May 2023 #16
Age can make us invisible Marthe48 May 2023 #17
a lot of therapy - the decision refers to that treestar Jun 2023 #57
useful to remember the power of cults dembotoz May 2023 #19
Life in prison should mean just that. She forfeited her right to live among the rest of us. Chainfire May 2023 #20
That was my thought, too.. Cha Jun 2023 #77
Ah, DU's "No Mercy" squad is here. maxsolomon May 2023 #23
I find the bloodlust/vengance as repulsive as her actions as a misguided TEENAGER tenderfoot May 2023 #32
Just to clarify Zeitghost Jun 2023 #64
It would appear so. nt MarineCombatEngineer Jun 2023 #65
So much for forgiveness tenderfoot Jun 2023 #67
Oh, I'll forgive her, MarineCombatEngineer Jun 2023 #69
So you do believe Zeitghost Jun 2023 #70
So should California also release Sirhan Sirhan? ripcord May 2023 #34
Board denied him Parole on March 1st. maxsolomon May 2023 #35
It depends on the situation. I don't think a person who stabbed an innocent victim 16 times should Demsrule86 May 2023 #46
we'd have to hope they are not treestar Jun 2023 #55
I believe stabbing soneone 16 times constitutes ExWhoDoesntCare May 2023 #52
I didn't say jack about the specifics of her crime. maxsolomon Jun 2023 #53
Respectfully, MarineCombatEngineer Jun 2023 #62
She not only stabbed someone 16 times ripcord Jun 2023 #54
Crowe was shot, but survived. H2O Man Jun 2023 #66
Post removed Post removed Jun 2023 #68
Justice is not about revenge. It's not about the dead: they're just evidence of the crime ... marble falls Jun 2023 #71
I strongly agree with this statement. ShazzieB Jun 2023 #75
We have to raise our voices. As a preventitive to crime, capital punishment has been an abject ... marble falls Jun 2023 #76
Yes, yes, yes! ShazzieB Jun 2023 #78
If they thought it was such a great thing they wouldn't hide it. They do it in our name in the dark. marble falls Jun 2023 #83
Supporters of capital punishment are at least honest in their intent. Lancero Jun 2023 #81
Absolutely gobsmaking, isn't it? They think revenge and skirting law regarding rehabilitation ... marble falls Jun 2023 #82
I don't believe in capital punishment. And one of the arguments that those who are supporters of Demsrule86 Jun 2023 #87
One of the few things we disagree about. marble falls Jun 2023 #88
Good post canetoad Jun 2023 #80
Yep...too old now to go BUTCHER some people?? Bengus81 Jun 2023 #74
Just my 2 cents: discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2023 #84
The show her mercy squad should... LudwigPastorius Jun 2023 #86

BigmanPigman

(55,171 posts)
2. I think she should rot in jail and consider herself lucky
Wed May 31, 2023, 12:17 AM
May 2023

that the original sentence of execution was changed to life in jail.

The Manson group killed many, many more people than the Tate/La Bianca murders.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-manson-family/los-angeles-police-explore-manson-family-role-in-dozen-cold-cases-idUKBRE89J03E20121020

Skittles

(171,719 posts)
5. well, if they find evidence she participated in other murders, charge her
Wed May 31, 2023, 01:07 AM
May 2023

otherwise, the parole consideration is for the crime / sentence she has served

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
9. She wielded the knife and killed the LaBiancas....no parole. Governor Newsome is right.
Wed May 31, 2023, 07:56 AM
May 2023

She had three trials you know and after being sentenced to death the sentence was ended when the death penalty was briefly overturned. And She received a life sentence. She has no right to parole. She got life. Paraole would be a gift in a sense...and yet there is no parole for the LaBiancas. They remain dead. Let me say I do not support the death penalty but life...she deserves it.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
38. that logic isn't used, or there would be
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:17 PM
May 2023

no parole hearings at all. There is always no paroled for one who was murdered. Why bother with those hearings then?

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
41. Honestly, I don't see why you would but it is the law...even Manson had parole hearings...doesn't
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:49 PM
May 2023

mean he should get out...Should we let Sirhan Sirhan out? Most here are against that...her crime was more violent...it was torture and murder. If I had my way she would rot in jail.

H2O Man

(79,057 posts)
39. For the sake of accuracy,
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:40 PM
May 2023

her sentence in the third trial was life with the possibility of parole -- something the prosecutor agreed with. It is important to understand that a "life" sentence is not the same as "life with no possibility of parole." If her sentence was intended to keep her incarcerated, she would not be considered for parole. It is important to understand what the laws are, rather than reacting purely on emotion and lack of understanding.

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
40. I am aware of this...however, it is a possibility not a sure thing...her crime was so brutal-
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:47 PM
May 2023

stabbing Mrs. Bianca 14 times in her lower back...can imagine the suffering...she should stay in jail for like given the nature of the crime.

uppityperson

(116,021 posts)
26. It would be interesting to see if they've made progress in the last 11 yrs since that article
Wed May 31, 2023, 11:18 AM
May 2023

was published.

H2O Man

(79,057 posts)
28. I hear you.
Wed May 31, 2023, 02:21 PM
May 2023

I understand that good people can view this and related cases in a variety of ways. Same with the death penalty. As I've noted on this forum in the past, I've had family members and friends murdered, and I favor incarceration for murderers. Hasn't happened in two of those cases, which always bugged me.

California's policies on parole are what they are, and since that is so, and she meets every standard and requirement to be released, I don't think she should be treated differently than anyone else. Others in the Manson family certainly did commit numerous murders, and I would not favor any of them being released. This woman was a particiant in two terrible, cruel murders, and is known to have stabbed one of the two numerous times after the lady was dead. That is awful by any and all definitions.

I think that people can change. Not everyone does, obviously, and those who do not should note be paroled. But a 21 year old is sometimes different than a 75 year old, including if they have served 54 years for a vicious crime they participated in when they were 21. But that's just my opinion, worth no more or less than anyone else's.

There are cases of parole I strongly oppose ...... I've mentioned one where a repeat sex offender raped and murdered a pre-teen paper girl. I am rather familiar with the case, including the offender. And was friends with the victim's late father. In other instances, including a guy who murdered three of my friends over a card game (two weren't even playing), I didn't oppose the murderer being paroled. But again, I respect others' opinions.

NH Ethylene

(31,350 posts)
36. Totallly agree.
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:10 PM
May 2023

It always aggravates me that prisoners whose crimes were highly publicized are denied parole over and over, under circumstances that would result in the parole of convicts who had never attracted the public eye.

I also agree about murderous sex offenders. They are disturbingly likely to reoffend if released and that should be addressed at the sentencing so questions of parole never come up.

jstephenj

(53 posts)
58. I am of the belief that Leslie Van Houten would not be a danger to society...
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 03:49 PM
Jun 2023

if she were to be released from prison. However, I believe that based on the severity of the crimes she committed that she should remain in prison for the rest of her life. Some crimes are so heinous that they warrant that the perpetrator never see the light of day in free society again and I say this as a die hard progressive.

She, along with her Manson Family cohorts were originally sentenced to death but had their sentences downgraded to life in prison. That to me is a sensible middle ground for those who may have felt that their death sentences were too harsh. I think Governors Brown and Newsom made the right call when they stepped in and rescinded their paroles. Good. Just because Governor Newsom has taken strong progressive stands on issues like abortion rights and LGBT rights doesn't mean than he's required to take such a cavelier stand when it comes to criminal justice.

I don't know how appellate law works in California, but I hope that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals prevails in overturning Newson's ruling and allows this monster to ever walk free again. Just because an inmate no longer poses any harm to society if they are ever release should not entitle a convicted murderer a parole. I think a lot of people lose sight of this fact.

Susan Atkins famously petitioned for a mercy release as she was dying of cancer and was rejected. I'm fine with that. I think many people were fine with that. I also think most sensible people will not lose sleep over Miss Van Houten remaining where she is at 73.

H2O Man

(79,057 posts)
63. Interesting.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 08:41 PM
Jun 2023

Thank you for this. I can appreciate that people can have different opinions on this, as sincere to them as mine is to my beliefs and values. And so long as a person has a good idea what they are talking about -- as opposed to misinformation, misunderstanding and emotion, as we see even in some responses by intelligent, good people -- I can respect their opinion. No problem with that.

I think that an understanding of the legal system is a good place to start, although one may disagree with a state or federal law. LVH and the others were convicted and sentenced to death, and while I do not agree with the death penalty, I can appreciate why they were thus sentenced. I'm not good with government killing people -- largely because I had a friend who was incarcerated about 20 years before being released for a crime he did not commit, so I am familiar with the failures of an imperfect system. And even those I can understand why others would prefer the death penalty, tempting as it would be in some cases, I don't agree with it. (Yet I do think that LVH should be evaluated for parole in the context of the current system in CA.)

I tend to view murderers along the scale that Michael Stone teaches (or taught) at Columbia University. In the context of psychology, and not in the religious sense, he has a scale of evil he uses to evaluate what we might call "the worst of the worst." And certainly, the Manson family members convicted of murder rank there. Indeed, that scale presents a way to evaluate each of the members convicted, and this helps explain why, for example, Steve "Clem" Grogan was released on parole years ago. He was along on the night that LVH was, and thus meets the definition for "felony murder" as well. And he was convicted as one of the murderers of Shorty Shea, who died the same type of horrible death as the more famous victims.

Now, we remember that Vince Bugliosi stated he considered LVH the least connected of the girls to Charlie, though at that time he found her thinking the most hard-core even though, from his understanding, she had not stabbed a living person. Not to excuse holding a person down or stabbing a dead body. Now, the US is the only country today thqat sill goes by the 1716 concept of "felony murder" by William Hawkin's contribution to English law, if we do have it, I think there is a need for degrees. LVH's would be at the worst level -- as was Manson's.

After the death penalty ended, Bugliosi thought all three female defendents would be paroled in 15 to 29 years LVH, of course, had two retrials. A good friend has mentioned that here, though apparently without remembering that the reason there was a third trial was because in the second case, the jury could not agree on if she was guilty of murder or manslaughter. Thus, while Susan Atkins went out on the second night, and had butchered human beings at the Tate house, she is on a distinct level of evil than LVH.

Like yourself -- and likely every person on earth excepting LVH -- I shall not lose sleep if she isn't released. I'm not sure the same can be said if she is released.

jstephenj

(53 posts)
59. I am of the belief that Leslie Van Houten would not be a danger to society...
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 03:49 PM
Jun 2023

if she were to be released from prison. However, I believe that based on the severity of the crimes she committed that she should remain in prison for the rest of her life. Some crimes are so heinous that they warrant that the perpetrator never see the light of day in free society again and I say this as a die hard progressive.

She, along with her Manson Family cohorts were originally sentenced to death but had their sentences downgraded to life in prison. That to me is a sensible middle ground for those who may have felt that their death sentences were too harsh. I think Governors Brown and Newsom made the right call when they stepped in and rescinded their paroles. Good. Just because Governor Newsom has taken strong progressive stands on issues like abortion rights and LGBT rights doesn't mean than he's required to take such a cavelier stand when it comes to criminal justice.

I don't know how appellate law works in California, but I hope that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals prevails in overturning Newson's ruling and allows this monster to ever walk free again. Just because an inmate no longer poses any harm to society if they are ever release should not entitle a convicted murderer a parole. I think a lot of people lose sight of this fact.

Susan Atkins famously petitioned for a mercy release as she was dying of cancer and was rejected. I'm fine with that. I think many people were fine with that. I also think most sensible people will not lose sleep over Miss Van Houten remaining where she is at 73.

Response to jstephenj (Reply #59)

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
12. It is not vengence or retribution...it is justice. She showed no mercy to her victims now did she?
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:01 AM
May 2023

Can you imagine the sufferings of the LaBiancas and Sharon Tate ET AL. We know she used the knife on the LaBiancas. She needs to serve her life sentence.

 

tenderfoot

(8,982 posts)
25. There are people that have done just as bad to worse that are walking around freely
Wed May 31, 2023, 11:02 AM
May 2023

Go off on them too.

Like this ASSHOLE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gallagher_(Navy_SEAL)

He's more a danger to society than Leslie fucking VanHouten

MarineCombatEngineer

(18,060 posts)
49. And those people should not have been released either,
Wed May 31, 2023, 09:03 PM
May 2023

2 wrongs don't make a right.

She's in prison, where she belongs and should stay there until it's time to take the dirt nap.

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
42. She is a vicious murderer and her age doesn't change that. 16 times she stabbed a helpless woman
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:51 PM
May 2023

who died with the sounds of her husband who was being tortured with symbols carved into his abdomen screaming. He was stabbed to death as well...their teenage son found them. I would never let her out.

MarineCombatEngineer

(18,060 posts)
47. So that means she was an adult.
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:58 PM
May 2023

She knew damn well what she was doing was illegal and yet she gleefully participated in the gruesome torture and murders of the La Bianca's.

The La Bianca's are still dead and she's still alive, she can live the rest of her life in prison where she belongs.

And spare me the crap about compassion, she showed none that night.

cstanleytech

(28,473 posts)
79. She escaped both of those though as she originally was sentenced to death so she should be grateful
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 02:58 AM
Jun 2023

for what she has now which is life in prison.

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
14. She stabbed Rosemary LaBianca 16 times...she is a monster. And belongs in jail. I can't
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:15 AM
May 2023

imagine how awful it was for the victims...It is like a fucking violent movie complete with this homecoming queen wielding the knife. The LaBiancas suffered a horrible death...I hope the governor does not parole her. Why exactly does she deserve to get out of prison?

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
43. VanHouton...said at a parole hearing that 'it was around 16 times'...probably lying although that is
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:54 PM
May 2023

bad enough. It was two vicious murders and those who used the knife should remain in prison for life.

spike jones

(2,020 posts)
50. I certainly agree, she needs to die in jail.
Wed May 31, 2023, 10:05 PM
May 2023

From wikipedia ".. By the time the stabbing ended, Watson, Krenwinkel, and Van Houten had stabbed Rosemary 41 times.[1]" Van Houten did 16.

3Hotdogs

(15,370 posts)
8. Yes. No political leader wants to be the one to free a criminal whose crimes were on front pages
Wed May 31, 2023, 07:41 AM
May 2023

across the nation. Hell. A political can get in trouble by freeing an unknown criminal.


Anyone remember -- I'm not sure of the guy's name... Willie.... Willie..somethin... Willie.......HORTON. That's it. Anyone remember him?



Somehow, I doubt she is gonna be a repeat criminal.

H2O Man

(79,057 posts)
18. Right.
Wed May 31, 2023, 10:09 AM
May 2023

Willie, of course, wasn't paroled, but that work release program came back to haunt the governor in 1988. I agree with you on that, and even more on her being unlikely to commit further crimes.

Skittles

(171,719 posts)
29. correct
Wed May 31, 2023, 03:14 PM
May 2023

their first consideration is their political career......she remains in jail because of the notoriety - were it not for that, she would have been out long ago, as are MANY convicted killers

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
13. You do understand that their are Black man who have been in jail for being present during a
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:09 AM
May 2023

robbery that resulted in someone's death? and they remain in jail. I think it is just the opposite. She has a chance at bail because of her notoriety.

In a later parole hearing, Van Houten explained that Charles “Tex” Watson and Manson himself broke into the house and tied the married couple up.

“[Tex] told Pat [Patricia Krenwinkel] and I to go into the kitchen and get knives, and we took Mrs. LaBianca into the bedroom and put a pillowcase over her head,” she said. “I wrapped the lamp cord around her head to hold the pillowcase on her head. I went to hold her down.”


Rosemary heard her husband’s screams from the other room, and began to loudly call out to him. That’s when Leslie Van Houten and Krenwinkel stabbed her.
“I went in and Mrs. LaBianca was laying on the floor and I stabbed her,” Van Houten said. “In the lower back, around 16 times.”

Police found Leno on a bloody living room floor with a pillowcase around his head and a lamp cord around his neck. His hands were tied behind his back with a leather thong. Krenwinkel had carved the word “WAR” into his chest.


Keep her in prison. She stabbed Rosemary LaBianca 16 times in the back. Her son found her and his Father. How horrible. She deserves every day she lives in prison.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/leslie-van-houten

H2O Man

(79,057 posts)
22. It appears that
Wed May 31, 2023, 10:32 AM
May 2023

you are either unfamiliar with CA's policies on parole, or do not agree with the. They have nothing to do with if one is male or female, black or white, or certainly favoring those with "notoriety." It is likely important to have an understanding of those laws, although one does have the absolute right -- without having any grasp of that state's parole policies -- to react to this case strongly, based upon emotion generated by the horror of the Manson family's crimes.

I'd note, for but one example, that the sentence in her third trial included the possibility of parole, something the prosecutor agreed with. Hence, she comes up for parole on a specific schedule.

H2O Man

(79,057 posts)
51. Perhaps you could
Wed May 31, 2023, 10:13 PM
May 2023

be so kind as to identify exactly what I said that you are calling "bullshit."

Mysterian

(6,487 posts)
27. Felony murder involves a lot more than just "being present" at a crime scene
Wed May 31, 2023, 02:01 PM
May 2023

You have to be one of the people committing a felony that is particularly dangerous for innocent people.

Mysterian

(6,487 posts)
48. I agree with that
Wed May 31, 2023, 09:01 PM
May 2023

I was responding to your comment on felony murder in general:

"You do understand that their are Black man who have been in jail for being present during a robbery that resulted in someone's death?"

Not just for being present - for taking part in a dangerous felony in which someone was killed.

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
72. There is one case in PA where Fetterman got him out...the kid was a cousin or a friend...saw
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 12:10 PM
Jun 2023

his friend needing a ride. The 'friend' had robbed a gas station I think and killed the clerk. I think there were two in the car ...and both were charged with murder and spent decades in jail until Fetterman intervened. They were of course, Black. And had done absolutely nothing so don't tell me that only those who took part in a dangerous felony are arrested, convicted, and imprisoned for long terms.

Mysterian

(6,487 posts)
73. Seems your memory is a bit faulty
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 04:52 PM
Jun 2023
At his trial, Cimohowsky admitted that he planned the robbery and picked the victim. But he said it was Covington’s idea to bring a gun — over his objections. Cimohowsky said he finally agreed, but insisted the gun not be loaded. Cimohowsky said Hoagland “was supposed to make sure it was unloaded before he gave it to him [Covington],” according to the Delaware County Daily Times.

Cimohowsky was found guilty of second-degree murder and was sentenced to 10 to 20 years in prison. At his sentencing hearing, Assistant District Attorney John R. Graham called Cimohowsky “the principal felon” in the case, according to the Delaware County Daily Times on Feb. 27, 1971. “The triggerman was Covington,” Graham said. “But it was this defendant who selected George Rudnycky as a victim, who procured Covington as the triggerman, who set the procedure up.”


https://www.factcheck.org/2022/09/fettermans-commutation-vote-on-convicted-murderer/

I not saying there are not many, many wrongful convictions, but to be convicted of felony murder, a prosecutor must prove participation in the underlying dangerous felony.

SouthBayDem

(33,284 posts)
6. The full decision
Wed May 31, 2023, 01:21 AM
May 2023

can be read here: https://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B320098.PDF

The majority decision was written by judges Helen I. Bendix, appointed to the court in 2018 by Governor Jerry Brown (D), and Victoria G. Chaney, appointed in '09 by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (R). The dissenting judge was the presiding judge, Frances Rothschild, another Schwarzenegger appointee.

hardluck

(783 posts)
30. I had oral argument before Division 1 in October
Wed May 31, 2023, 03:35 PM
May 2023

Bendix and Rothschild are good judges. Chaney wasn’t on my panel.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
56. I read that
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 01:25 PM
Jun 2023

It does seem she qualifies under CA law. There's a lot of play in the factors considered, so there is no simple answer in any given case.

Marthe48

(23,176 posts)
17. Age can make us invisible
Wed May 31, 2023, 10:04 AM
May 2023

and it is popular right now to think of anyone over 50 as harmless, not able to wreak pain and suffering. Don't be fooled. This was a horrible crime when it happened. I was 17 at the time.

Nothing stopped the murderers when they committed their crimes. Random victims, suffering and dying. How do you rehabilitate from that? Maybe she was misled by her cult leader, but she's spent her entire life since following orders. What is to stop another cult leader from attracting her to a new cult, and continuing to follow orders, mindlessly, without remorse?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
57. a lot of therapy - the decision refers to that
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 01:26 PM
Jun 2023

and fortunately, such cult leaders are few and far between.

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
20. Life in prison should mean just that. She forfeited her right to live among the rest of us.
Wed May 31, 2023, 10:24 AM
May 2023

She made her bed and should die in it.

Cha

(319,089 posts)
77. That was my thought, too..
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 08:06 PM
Jun 2023

Sentenced to Life in Prison for Killing a person. should mean just that.

Doesn't matter if they're not a "danger to society" anymore. That person isn't coming back to life.

I was in California when that happened.. it was Horrible to read about.. I can't even imagine the Horror of those who lost loved ones and lived in the neighborhoods..

maxsolomon

(38,737 posts)
23. Ah, DU's "No Mercy" squad is here.
Wed May 31, 2023, 10:35 AM
May 2023

Here's what I learned last week: the possibility of parole is only added to life sentences for extra cruelty, and it should never be granted.

 

Zeitghost

(4,557 posts)
64. Just to clarify
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 09:11 PM
Jun 2023

You believe that holding the belief that she does not deserve mercy and that she should be locked up for the rest of her life is as repulsive as stabbing a woman 16 times while murdering her?

MarineCombatEngineer

(18,060 posts)
69. Oh, I'll forgive her,
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 06:58 AM
Jun 2023

when she's 6 feet under taking the eternal dirt nap, otherwise, she can rot in prison where she belongs.

 

Zeitghost

(4,557 posts)
70. So you do believe
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 10:34 AM
Jun 2023

That that the mere thought that a murderer does not deserve parole is as repulsive as the actual murder itself.


What an odd belief system. I'm not sure how you reconcile that with the pillars of liberal and progressive ideology.

maxsolomon

(38,737 posts)
35. Board denied him Parole on March 1st.
Wed May 31, 2023, 07:45 PM
May 2023

So the point is moot.

If he's released in his 80s, I don't know that I'm outraged. You will be, apparently.

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
46. It depends on the situation. I don't think a person who stabbed an innocent victim 16 times should
Wed May 31, 2023, 08:58 PM
May 2023

ever be released.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
55. we'd have to hope they are not
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 01:23 PM
Jun 2023

because we don't get media coverage of the vast majority of cases.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
52. I believe stabbing soneone 16 times constitutes
Wed May 31, 2023, 11:39 PM
May 2023

"Extra cruelty."

That you think that's not more cruel than necessary says more about you than about any of the "no mercy squad" you hold in such contempt.

maxsolomon

(38,737 posts)
53. I didn't say jack about the specifics of her crime.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 11:54 AM
Jun 2023

You're putting words in my mouth - is that a DU No Mercy Squad thing?

MarineCombatEngineer

(18,060 posts)
62. Respectfully,
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 06:50 PM
Jun 2023

Leslie Van Houten deserves the same mercy that she showed the La Bianca's that horrible night, IOW's, none at all, she should spend the rest of her natural life in prison.

 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
54. She not only stabbed someone 16 times
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 12:05 PM
Jun 2023

But the goal of all the murders was to start a race war, before the famous killing they had also killed Bernard Crowe, thinking he was a Black Panther. They also had kidnapped and held Gary Hinman, holding his hostage for two days before killing him, they wrote "Political Piggy on the wall in blood along with a panther paw to try and implicate the Back Panthers. None of these people deserve to see the light of day.

Response to ripcord (Reply #54)

marble falls

(71,947 posts)
71. Justice is not about revenge. It's not about the dead: they're just evidence of the crime ...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 11:03 AM
Jun 2023

... Justice is about repairing the fabric of society and to test society's commitment to specific values, one of the reasons they call it a trial. When a criminal is brought to justice, he is not punished for the actions of others. Most prisons are run by Departments of Corrections. If the inmate has corrected themselves, there is no reason to keep them locked up. Any more time is revenge. I understand the emotions of family and friends - that's why they don't get to arrest, prosecute, judge, jury or punish.

If by any horrible chance anything terrible happens to me or my family or friends, I do not want anyone so emotional that revenge enters into their equations on the jury.

She's been rehabilitated and she deserves release. She's welcome to live in my neighborhood.

ShazzieB

(22,596 posts)
75. I strongly agree with this statement.
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 05:37 PM
Jun 2023

The difference between justice and revenge/retribution is obviously hard for some to grasp, but it is nonetheless real and valid. I believe this difficulty with separating them is at the very heart of the issue of why we still have capital punishment in this country, despite all the other reasons (excuses, imo) that are put forward to support it.

I feel that it's usually futile to argue with those who are firmly in the revenge/retribution camp, but I really appreciate all those who are expressing different viewpoints in this thread, and felt I should add my voice.

marble falls

(71,947 posts)
76. We have to raise our voices. As a preventitive to crime, capital punishment has been an abject ...
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 06:27 PM
Jun 2023

... failure. It plain does not work.

The fact that anyone can name a poster child for execution only drives home the aspect of unequal application of it.

It's turned into a ghastly side show and grotesque talking point for political animals.

The fact it has to be hidden behind barbed wire, tall walls, hidden rooms and drapes shows that it is a dirty, dirty business.


Let alone the young and the mentally damaged that get subjected to it. And the number of provably innocent victims of it. Or the racial disparity of it's application.

ShazzieB

(22,596 posts)
78. Yes, yes, yes!
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 01:58 AM
Jun 2023

It's a horror show, plain and simple. I'm embarrassed to live in a country that still practices it but take some comfort in the fact that my state outlawed it a few years ago.

It's harder than it should be to get things like that changed. because politicians are so afraid of looking like they're "soft on crime."

marble falls

(71,947 posts)
83. If they thought it was such a great thing they wouldn't hide it. They do it in our name in the dark.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 05:18 AM
Jun 2023

Lancero

(3,276 posts)
81. Supporters of capital punishment are at least honest in their intent.
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 04:24 AM
Jun 2023

Take a look at this topic, and well... Look at all the people happy over the thought that this woman will die in a cage.

marble falls

(71,947 posts)
82. Absolutely gobsmaking, isn't it? They think revenge and skirting law regarding rehabilitation ...
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 05:13 AM
Jun 2023

... is somehow justice. That somehow one gets even over another's death.

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
87. I don't believe in capital punishment. And one of the arguments that those who are supporters of
Sun Jun 4, 2023, 11:51 AM
Jun 2023

of what I consider state murder-the death penalty- is that the worst killers eventually get out with life sentences...Now she has the possibility of parole and she should have her hearings but that doesn't mean she deserves or should be released. I think Newsome is correct. She is still a danger to the community.

Bengus81

(10,167 posts)
74. Yep...too old now to go BUTCHER some people??
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 04:56 PM
Jun 2023

That skank should DIE in prison. These were savage,brutal murders and thrill seeking. She should NEVER be on the streets again.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,764 posts)
84. Just my 2 cents:
Sat Jun 3, 2023, 08:10 AM
Jun 2023

Death penalty = murder...almost, I think. End it. Off the table.

Existing prisons systems, especially the private ones need to be totally rethought from the ground up.

My thinking is that prison exists to segregate those among us who just don't play well not being watched and prevented from further victimizing others. Violent criminals must remain forever separated from those on whom they could prey.

The non-violent property and financial criminals mostly don't belong in prison at all.

LudwigPastorius

(14,728 posts)
86. The show her mercy squad should...
Sun Jun 4, 2023, 12:27 AM
Jun 2023

ask themselves if they'd be OK with her living next door.

...because, if she's paroled, she's going to be living next door to someone.

Oh, and she was already shown mercy when she wasn't executed.

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