15-year-old boy charged in girl’s fatal shooting on school bus; police say shooting accidental

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Miami Herald

Posted on Tuesday, 11.20.12

15-year-old boy charged in girl’s fatal shooting on school bus; police say shooting accidental

A teen pulled a gun from his backpack and displayed it on a school bus, police said. It went off, killing a 13-year-old girl.

BY JULIE K. BROWN AND LAURA ISENSEE
[e-mail]

Lourdes Guzman-DeJesus hopped onto her bus Tuesday morning, but never made it to school.

The cheery 13-year-old, who loved music, dancing and art, was accidentally shot and killed by a fellow student who had carried a gun onto the school bus.

Miami-Dade police late Tuesday charged 15-year-old Jordyn Alexander Howe with manslaughter and carrying a concealed firearm.

On the way to school Tuesday, Jordyn pulled the gun out of his backpack and displayed it, according to an arrest affidavit. The gun went off once, striking Lourdes in the neck.

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/20/3106129/student-shot-on-school-bus-in.html#storylink=cpy

[Sherman A1]

1. He accidentally carried a gun onto a school bus?

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay?

[ObaMania]

2. .. and it accidentally went off?

Got it.

[veganlush]

3. the gun lovers will tell ya

That if only she had been carrying too....

[Atypical Liberal]

13. Show me the gun lovers who advocate children carrying concealed firearms.

[samsingh]

24. i think when there are tens of millions of firearms this is going to happen

the gun lover's don't spend a lot of time on this inconvenient truth.

[Atypical Liberal]

47. Sure we do.

Firstly, I assume we are agreeing then that gun owners are not, in fact, calling for children to carry concealed weapons.

i think when there are tens of millions of firearms this is going to happen the gun lover's don't spend a lot of time on this inconvenient truth.

Most firearm owners agree with you. When we have a free society with relatively free access to firearms, bad things will occasionally happen.

The good news is these kinds of events are rare compared to the number of firearm owners and the number of firearms in circulation.

Nonetheless, I'd wager a lot of firearm owners agree that firearms should be responsibly stored out of reach of children, and moreover that children should receive basic firearm safety instruction in school.

I personally advocate that if you have children in the home at any time, you should lock up your firearms.

[PABigDaddyDemocrat]

176. Good post

This is hardly the argument of pro-gun Liberals...or conservatives for that matter.

Here we have a clear case of negligent parenting and very poor education regarding firearms. There is little else to say except that this story is very very sad.

I don't know of anyone dumb enough to opine that more children should be carrying firearms. To suggest such a thing is, in my humble opinion, opportunistic and small-minded. There are legitimate opportunities to push the anti-gun agenda.

This story does not provide that opportunity.

[Surya Gayatri]

87. +1,000! The more ubiquitous guns are, the more they will be misused. FACT!

[samsingh]

100. agreed

[Doctor_J]

149. The gun lovers are in favor of mandatory gun safety (oxymoron)

classes in grade school, instead of gun control. Why would you need gun safety classes for 8 year-olds, if not for them to carry guns?

[glacierbay]

152. It has nothing to do with carrying guns, gun ownership, or even shooting guns

It is to teach a child what to do in the event they come across an unsecured firearm.
The NRA's Eddie Eagle safety program is a great program.

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

The purpose of the Eddie Eagle Program isn’t to teach whether guns are good or bad, but rather to promote the protection and safety of children. The program makes no value judgments about firearms, and no firearms are ever used in the program. Like swimming pools, electrical outlets, matchbooks and household poison, they’re treated simply as a fact of everyday life. With firearms found in about half of all American households, it’s a stance that makes sense.

Eddie Eagle is never shown touching a firearm, and he does not promote firearm ownership or use. The program prohibits the use of Eddie Eagle mascots anywhere that guns are present. The Eddie Eagle Program has no agenda other than accident prevention – ensuring that children stay safe should they encounter a gun. The program never mentions the NRA. Nor does it encourage children to buy guns or to become NRA members. The NRA does not receive any appropriations from Congress, nor is it a trade organization. It is not affiliated with any firearm or ammunition manufacturers or with any businesses that deal in guns and ammunition.

[Doctor_J]

160. a post from nrahq!

the organization that flooded the airwaves with attack ads in the run-up to the election. What an odd web site to post that on.

[glacierbay]

166. ????????????????????

So whats wrong with teaching kids what to do in the event that they come across an unsecured firearm?
The Eddie Eagle program is geared to just that scenario, so why not use it?
And try to answer w/o all the hyperbole please.

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

The purpose of the Eddie Eagle Program isn’t to teach whether guns are good or bad, but rather to promote the protection and safety of children. The program makes no value judgments about firearms, and no firearms are ever used in the program. Like swimming pools, electrical outlets, matchbooks and household poison, they’re treated simply as a fact of everyday life. With firearms found in about half of all American households, it’s a stance that makes sense.

Eddie Eagle is never shown touching a firearm, and he does not promote firearm ownership or use. The program prohibits the use of Eddie Eagle mascots anywhere that guns are present. The Eddie Eagle Program has no agenda other than accident prevention – ensuring that children stay safe should they encounter a gun. The program never mentions the NRA. Nor does it encourage children to buy guns or to become NRA members. The NRA does not receive any appropriations from Congress, nor is it a trade organization. It is not affiliated with any firearm or ammunition manufacturers or with any businesses that deal in guns and ammunition.

[veganlush]

177. "shall not be infringed"

Where does it say "Shall be infringed if you want to "

[slackmaster]

14. Posts like yours make DU suck, veganlush

Why do you make DU suck?

[samsingh]

25. i think veganlush has a good point

[slackmaster]

32. No, veganlush's "point" is a straw man

Nobody actually says what veganlush suggested.

[Paladin]

46. If DU Sucks, Why Do You Stick Around? (nt)

[slackmaster]

58. Just to piss you off, Paladin

[glacierbay]

62. Good One.

[Paladin]

66. So Glad To Be Of Service To You. (nt)

[samsingh]

31. i am so frustrated and flabbergasted that these types of tragedies are acceptable to gun lovers

who are not willing to show any sort of leadership to deal with these situations. We'll get platitudes. nothing more.

[slackmaster]

33. Who thinks this tragedy is "acceptable?"

Serious question, samsingh. Who?

[Aristus]

38. Any right-wing NRA gun nut.

Their responses to these tragedies are always one variation or another of "Well, that's jes' th'price ya pay fer FREEDOM!"

[slackmaster]

40. Name one real person who has actually said that.

[Atypical Liberal]

49. I say that.

In any society with relatively free access to firearms, you are going to have some level of people using them for bad things or having accidents with them.

This is the price we pay for having such a free society.

Of course, no one is advocating children carrying concealed firearms, and many of us think children should be taught basic firearm safety in school.

[slackmaster]

57. And there we have it

Of course, no one is advocating children carrying concealed firearms

Nor is anyone saying the tragic death of a child is "acceptable."

[Sekhmets Daughter]

60. I think any parent or guardian whose child gets his/her

hands on a gun and then kills someone with it, should be criminally charged with negligent homicide at the very least. That would go a long way toward making people responsible for the weapons they own.

[Atypical Liberal]

81. Generally, I agree.

However, if I have taken adequate precautions to safeguard my firearms, by locking them in a safe, for example, and a child either breaks into it or finds the hidden key and gets into them anyway, then my sense of responsibility diminishes.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

93. Perhaps,

it diminishes, but does not disappear. If your child got hold of one of your guns, then obviously your precautions were not "adequate". And, you have failed to communicate sufficient gun safety (your own principle) rules to prevent the tragedy. Every right carries a responsibility. You have a right to own guns, as many as you want. You also have the responsibility to ensure that there are no innocent victims of gun violence because you failed to keep those guns out of the hands of irresponsible children or other criminals.... I am really sick of this notion that people have rights and no responsibilities. Too many people , not just gun owners, fail to recognize that their rights are not free, but come from the social compact and thus carry responsibilities to society.

[Atypical Liberal]

97. Sure, but at some point, it becomes someone else's responsibility.

Look, I store my guns in a California Department of Justice approved safe for safe firearm storage.

If someone breaks into this, child or otherwise, and steals my firearms and harms someone with it, am I to be held responsible when it is clearly the person who broke in who should be held responsible?

I hide the key to my safe in a rather unlikely place. However, a dedicated search might turn it up. For example, as a kid, every year it was my mission to find my Christmas presents. I always succeeded. Even when they kept them locked in the trunk of the car I would sneak into their bedroom while they slept, get the keys, and go investigate my presents.

I guess the only protection against this would be a coded lock. I don't have one of those.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

103. I am not absolving the shooter of responsibility....

And, yes a coded lock would be an improvement.

I think the most important question to ask yourself should be, "Would I be able to forgive myself if one of my firearms killed an innocent
person?" If you can absolve yourself of any and all guilt, maybe you should rethink your right to own guns. Somehow, I don't get the impression you are a sociopath with no sense of responsibility, so please don't think I am attacking you in any way. I'm just trying to shed some light on another point of view and the burden of responsibility that should come with the right to own a firearm.

I am not opposed to guns, I've considered purchasing one myself, several times.

[Atypical Liberal]

115. I don't think I could ever absolve myself of guilt.

If my guns were ever used to cause unwarranted harm, even if they were encased in carbonite I would feel guilt about it.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

120. That's what I thought....

But, I'm not certain you are in the majority. We seem to have at least once incident every few months involving a child getting his hands on a gun and killing a friend, family member or himself. Of course, this is FL, the land of insanity.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[goclark]

123. As a former school administrator

I find it difficult to understand why anyone that is not a SANE
Adult with a permit to own a gun should have it anywhere near
a minor that has no reason to ever have access to a weapon .It is a full time job to see that students are following the basic
safety rules.

[bettyellen]

133. You should keep the key on your person at all times then

Leaving a key in a "good hiding place" in the same house as the gun IS irresponsible. Please rethink this.

[Atypical Liberal]

175. This is not possible.

Do you take your keys with you into the shower? Do you sleep with your keys?

[bettyellen]

178. I don't have keys to anything deadly, so no.

But if I did and curious teens around the house.... I'd sure as fuck never let the key out of my sight.
It sure as shit is EASY to take that key everywhere- and put it under the matress when you're asleep.
You are being irresponsible if you leave it around, and should be held 100% accountable for taking the easy way out.
With rights come responsibilities.

[Atypical Liberal]

179. It's not the teens I worry about

By the time my kids are teenagers, they will know how to responsibly handle firearms.

I'm mostly concerned about them getting their hands on them as children. I don't think they can find (or even reach) the key for now.

[Katashi_itto]

144. I agree, your kid gets ahold of YOUR wepons, YOUR responsible. Period.

[samsingh]

167. well said : i too am sick of people taking no responsibility

shrugging off tragedies
not looking for any solutions - it's about rights after all

[glacierbay]

169. Would you be open to this safety program taught in school?

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

What is The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program?

The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program teaches children in pre-K through third grade four important steps to take if they find a gun. These steps are presented by the program’s mascot, Eddie Eagle®, in an easy-to-remember format consisting of the following simple rules:

If you see a gun:

STOP!
Don’t Touch.
Leave the Area.
Tell an Adult.

Begun in 1988, The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program has reached more than 25 million children – in all 50 states. This program was developed through the combined efforts of such qualified professionals as clinical psychologists, reading specialists, teachers, curriculum specialists, urban housing safety officials, and law enforcement personnel.

Anyone may teach The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program, and NRA membership is not required. The program may be readily incorporated into existing school curriculum, taught in a one- to five-day format, and used to reach both levels or simply one or two grades. Materials available through this program are: student workbooks, 7-minute animated video (available on DVD), instructor guides, brochures, and student reward stickers. Program materials are also available in Spanish.

The NRA is committed to helping keep America’s young children safe. In efforts to do so, we offer our program at a nominal fee. Schools, law enforcement agencies, hospitals, daycare centers, and libraries may be eligible to receive grant funding to defray program costs. Grant funding is available in many states to these groups to cover the cost of all program curriculum materials.

The purpose of the Eddie Eagle Program isn’t to teach whether guns are good or bad, but rather to promote the protection and safety of children. The program makes no value judgments about firearms, and no firearms are ever used in the program. Like swimming pools, electrical outlets, matchbooks and household poison, they’re treated simply as a fact of everyday life. With firearms found in about half of all American households, it’s a stance that makes sense.

Eddie Eagle is never shown touching a firearm, and he does not promote firearm ownership or use. The program prohibits the use of Eddie Eagle mascots anywhere that guns are present. The Eddie Eagle Program has no agenda other than accident prevention – ensuring that children stay safe should they encounter a gun. The program never mentions the NRA. Nor does it encourage children to buy guns or to become NRA members. The NRA does not receive any appropriations from Congress, nor is it a trade organization. It is not affiliated with any firearm or ammunition manufacturers or with any businesses that deal in guns and ammunition

[Sekhmets Daughter]

170. Absolutely...

I would even be in favor of expanding the program to target grades 4 - 8. I don't think we do anywhere near enough to teach children about gun safety or the dangers of playing with or handling guns.

I'm 64 years old...about 54 years ago my parents took the family to rural PA to visit my mother's Aunt & Uncle. Her uncle kept a shotgun in a corner of the upstairs
hallway, which my younger brother promptly found. My mother took the gun away from him and asked her uncle to put it somewhere the kids wouldn't be able to get to it. Uncle Mike assured her the gun wasn't loaded and to prove his point, he pointed it at my mother and prepared to shoot. Fortunately, my father walked in just in time to grab the double-barreled killer before the triggered was pulled. He then showed Uncle Mike that the shotgun was indeed loaded.... Gun safety is something that needs to be emphasized for all ages. Poor Uncle Mike was so distraught, while the rest of us were just very happy that my father knew enough about guns to know you never point a gun at someone you don't want to kill.

[glacierbay]

171. I glad your father prevented a tragedy

the first rule of gun safety is alwas assume the firearm is loaded, and never ever point it at something you're not prepared to destroy.

I agree that it should be expanded to 4-8 grades, but just the mention of an NRA sponsered program gets people here in a tizzy and they want nothing to do with it.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving and peace to you and your family.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

172. There is nothing worse than a closed mind....

Yes, my children joined me for Thanksgiving dinner and football! I hope your Thanksgiving was as wonderful. Stay safe during this most hectic of seasons.

And don't give up the fight for gun safety. I like Eddie Eagle very much, thanks for the information.

[hack89]

91. Same for alcohol?

what if my kid steals some beers, drives and kills someone?

Do I have to put a padlock on my beer fridge?

[samsingh]

101. they have nothing to do with each other - however, yes hosts are liable for getting guests drunk who

then cause an accident.

so someone selling a gun should be liable for the damages caused by that gun.

thanks for the suggestion.

[hack89]

110. So that clerk at the 7-11 who sold me a 12 pack would be liable

if I drank it and then killed someone while DUI? If I drove recklessly and killed someone can the auto dealer be sued?

I don't think you have thought this out very well.

[samsingh]

124. it's not 'me' - this is the law in many places

[Sekhmets Daughter]

121. If you can't trust your kids,

perhaps you should. No doubt you'd take a second mortgage on your house, if needed, to pay for his defense attorney. Wouldn't it be better to prevent the tragedy?

[Canuckistanian]

143. We have a free society in here in Canada

And yet we ban handguns.

So, what level of "relatively free access" are you willing to accept if the price is so high?

[samsingh]

168. 'shall not infringe'

Last edited Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:55 PM - Edit history (1)

if i take this literally, i think it's unfair that some people don't have enough money to buy every gun they want. 'this is an infringement'

gun manufacturers should be patriots and give guns away for free. We'll see how long they defend the liberal interpretation of the second amendment.

[PavePusher]

173. Shall we extend that to "free press" as well?

I think you're going well past common meaning of words there.

Edit: Anyway, the Constitution is about the limits of government, not the limits of "the people".

[samsingh]

70. see the next response

[DollarBillHines]

134. No shit, slackmaster. But try and blame it on piss-poor parenting (which is a root cause) and

the Bad Parents will flame you.

[Doctor_J]

150. Most of the gunsters say that "accidents" like this are of

a neglible proportion. That sounds an awful lot like "acceptable" to me

[glacierbay]

153. May sound like it you

but that's completely unacceptable to the vast majority of gun owners.

"Gunsters"? Is this the new code word for gun owners? Awwwwwwww, how cute.

[Doctor_J]

161. here is one of our very own, in the very thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=313526

The good news is these kinds of events are rare compared to the number of firearm owners and the number of firearms in circulation.

Maybe you should be arguing with him. Maybe you would prefer gun nuts or gun culture?

[PavePusher]

174. Which does not at all equal "acceptable". No matter how much you insist it does. n/t

[glacierbay]

41. Why don't you link to one post where

us "gun lovers" think these types of tragedies are acceptable. I have yet to see one.

[Aristus]

44. Not acceptable in an absolute sense.

Just more acceptable than effective gun regulation. The next time a large-scale gun massacre happens, and the notion of tighter gun regulation is even hinted at, just watch the reaction of the NRA and its minions and then tell me I'm wrong. Go ahead...

[WinniSkipper]

98. What are some of these

Tighter regulations you would like to see?

[Aristus]

99. Close the gun-show loophole, for example.

Institute a minimum five-day waiting period for purchasing a handgun. Registration and tracking of ammunition purchases. Keep gun registration and purchase information on federal file for longer than a single day. It used to be 60 days, I think, until John Ashcroft reduced it to a single day back when B*sh was pResident.

Eliminate licensing for machine gun firing ranges for those dipshits who like the "sound of freedom!" If one likes the sound of freedom perceived in the rattle of machine guns, he can join the military.

Eliminate any form of assault rifle manufactured for military use being used for hunting, etc. What kind of loser needs an AK-47 for hunting?

Require a mandatory punch in the nose for any asshole who asserts "You know, Hitler banned guns, too!" Plenty of non-Hitlerish countries in the world with tight gun regulation, and the far fewer gun-massacre deaths to show for it.

The only people regulations like that could possibly inconvenience are people who probably shouldn't have firearms in the first place...

[WinniSkipper]

104. Interesting

Do you think any of these would have prevented this tragedy?

[PavePusher]

157. Please define what the "gun-show loophole" is, how you would "close" it, enforce it.....

and what that would accomplish.

Please demonstrate that this "minimum five-day waiting period" has ever been effective. (Hint: all the published reports say it hasn't.)

"Registration and tracking of ammunition purchases." By what mechanism and to what purpose?

"Eliminate licensing for machine gun firing ranges..." What licencing? Why "eliminate" it? Are these ranges a source of crime, criminals or anything else directly detrimental to society? Or simply something you are bigoted against, much like some people are bigoted against public evidence of homosexuality?

"Eliminate any form of assault rifle manufactured for military use being used for hunting, etc." Assault rifles manufactured for military use are almost universally capable of full-auto fire and are illegal for hunting everywhere in the U.S. I don't know what use "etc." means. Perhaps you can elaborate?

"What kind of loser needs an AK-47 for hunting?" Well, the civilian-legal, non-full-auto AK-pattern rifles are actually quite good as hunting weapons. Semi-auto rifles have been in use in hunting for over a century. These days, they usually must be used with a 5-round or less magazine for hunting game animals in most jurisdictions, just like any other rifle type. (California is a noteably odd exception to this, allowing 10-round mags for almost everything.) Ballistically, it is nearly identical to the (over 130 year-old) .30-30 lever action rifle, a commonly used hunting caliber.

"Require a mandatory punch in the nose..." Oh, now you want to violate the First Amendment, with violence? Just remember that you are responsible for your actions....

[PavePusher]

82. "these types of tragedies are acceptable to gun lovers"

Yeah, going to need a citation or a retraction for that, O.K....?

[Remmah2]

156. I am so frustrated and flabbergasted that incidents like this are politicized.

As the masses dance in the blood of the dead.......................

[Ken Burch]

162. ...that she'd have shor HERSELF accidentally, which wouldn't be as bad?...

[4th law of robotics]

165. If that were true that would be a scathing criticism

[goclark]

4. Arrest the parents and suspend

him...home school him-parents would need to quit their jobs
No excuse for this---none!

There ought to be a law...oops forgot
that wouldn't work!
Damn.

[Kolesar]

9. The dumb shit who left the gun where he could take it should go to prison

A decade or more would be just.

[bitchkitty]

63. Who says it was left out?

By the time I was 8, I could open any locked door or cabinet in my parent's home. Teenagers tend to be foolish, but foolish isn't stupid.

[Honeycombe8]

11. The kid is the one at fault. Not the parents.

Unless we know the parents left it sitting on the coffee table and never told their son not to fool with it. There is no way to prevent a 15 yr old from getting his hands on anything in the house, even if it's under lock and key.

15 years old is plenty old enough to know better than to fool with a loaded gun. Manslaughter sounds appropriate. He'll spend, at most, a couple of years in juvenile hall, then get out with no record. If he gets juvenile hall time at all. Maybe he'll just get probation.

I don't blame the parents for having a loaded gun for protection, though, since their kid is 15. I'm from the deep south. Kids grow up around guns there, with no "accidents." It's quite normal. The problem isn't the gun. It's the education of the kid and the environment he lives in, both at home and at school and elsewhere.

If I'd taken one of my grandpa's guns, my dad would've tanned my hide but good. We knew better than to fool with the adults' guns. Now, to look at them, unloaded, and handle them, when we were older, that was allowed. So NOW that I'm an adult, I'm comfortable around guns. I have one myself. I'm a pretty good shot, too. A home intruder may get me in the end, but if I have any say so in the matter, he's going down, too.

[Fumesucker]

17. It's not true that there are "no accidents"

We are in the deep South and when my daughter was in HS one of the boys had a 30-06 deer rifle in the cab of his pickup in the school parking lot, when he slammed the door the rifle discharged and the bullet went through two trailer classrooms that had classes in session, it is only pure dumb luck one or more kids weren't killed.

[RantinRavin]

36. Sorry, that was not an accident

That was an idiot who got lucky. He should have made sure the rifle was unloaded before he ever put it into his truck.

His failure to follow basic firearm safety practices caused the incident.

[Fumesucker]

37. It was an accident in that it was not a deliberate act

You can play semantic games if you wish, wouldn't make any difference at all to the grief of a parent with a dead child.

[Atypical Liberal]

52. No, I think he's right.

This really isn't semantics. It is about a growing trend in the firearm community to not accept firearm tragedies as "accidents".

Calling a firearm tragedy an "accident" disavows responsibility for the tragedy. Almost always, the person who made the gun go off is responsible in that they could have known or should have known enough information to take action to prevent the tragedy.

Basically, virtually any time a firearm goes off unintentionally, it is the result of negligence, not just an "accident".

[Fumesucker]

56. I can think of several instances in my life where I could have killed myself or others being stupid

It's my opinion that the majority of adults my age would agree with that statement if they were being honest with themselves.

Basically we are all human, none of us is perfect and for every tragedy that happens there are dozens, hundreds that almost happen. There are just too many ways to foul up in the world and people hate the idea that their continued existence is largely thanks to luck.

[Atypical Liberal]

79. There is no room for stupidity with firearms.

Basically we are all human, none of us is perfect and for every tragedy that happens there are dozens, hundreds that almost happen. There are just too many ways to foul up in the world and people hate the idea that their continued existence is largely thanks to luck.

There is no room for stupidity with firearms, and when people are stupid with firearms, we need to condemn that and one way we do that is by calling such events what they are - "negligence", not "accidents".

When you handle and use firearms, you must do so perfectly. This is accomplished by learning, understanding, and applying the basic firearm rules every time you handle them. Most accidents would be prevented if people would simply:

1) Always assume every firearm is loaded.
2) Never point a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy.
3) Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4) Always be 100% sure of your target and what lies behind it.

If you want to work with firearms, you must do all four of these things perfectly, every time, all the time. As firearm owners, we should expect this from all other firearm owners, especially since the consequences of not doing them often have consequences for all of us.

[Fumesucker]

86. Humans just don't *do* perfect

If there are guns around people are going to get killed with them one way or another, you can minimize it but never stop it.

Every summer people bake their kids to death in cars and that's not even something where they have to be perfect, they just have to remember the kid's in the back seat when they park the car.

But they don't always remember, they are human and imperfect.

[Atypical Liberal]

90. That is fine. But we need to call it what it is.

Yes, that is all fine and dandy. The issue here is that we should refer to such stupid acts as negligence, not "accidents".

[Fumesucker]

96. And punishment is needed for negligence

That's what this is all about.

Some people think handing out severe enough punishment will fix anything.

[Scootaloo]

107. Blaming a machine for user fuckup doesn't sound smart coming from either camp n/t

[glacierbay]

117. That's a great way to put it. nt.

[samsingh]

26. i guess the protection didn't work for the 13 year old girl who was killed

maybe if she was armed

[AlbertCat]

28. The kid is the one at fault. Not the parents.

Personally, I think a culture that treats guns as kitchen appliances and bubble gum cards (collect 'em all!) is to blame.

[Hoyt]

106. Agree. We are far to accepting of guns in our society.

[wordpix]

151. no, parents are legally responsible for their children to 18 so should not leave loaded guns around

Esp. when teen boys are in the house.

[mainstreetonce]

34. Take away the gun ownership rights

Of the parents or whoever supplied access to that gun. charge them with being an accessory to the crime. The student should get the longest jail term possible. We have to get tough with the consequences.

[MrYikes]

5. I feel so sad for the girl's parents,,where do they go with their emotions?

[truthisfreedom]

6. Gus. Bun.

None. Never. The technology to detect a gun getting onto a bus is so cheap and simple that it's unthinkable we don't have it set up for every bus everywhere.

[Quantess]

7. No buns on the gus?

[samsingh]

27. gun lovers don't want anything to reduce the number of guns or where they can be carried.

[Comrade Grumpy]

39. I'm not a "gun lover," but I'm not thrilled at the idea of checkpoints to get on a bus.

[hack89]

92. How many laws did this kid break?

what law would have prevented this?

[Genghis_Sean]

8. Happened at my wife's school the other day, too...

I had to write referrals for a few kids who misbehaved for my substitute teacher in my absence the other day, but my wife had an honor's student who was apparently worse:

Apparently, he brought a 9mm to school and showed it around. Luckily, it didn't go off like it did in Miami. Fortunately, one of the kids who saw it told a parent and he's suspended while they investigate.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20121120/LOCAL0102/211200330/Fishers-teen-arrested-after-taking-gun-junior-high-school-show-off-classmates?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7C%7Cp&nclick_check=1

[Evasporque]

10. Had the bus driver and more passengers had conceal carry she would be alive...

More guns are the answer.

[Hoyt]

12. Guns, guns, guns. Really sad. Hope they track where gun came from.

[TexasProgresive]

15. Guns discharge when the trigger is pulled.

How did the gun, "went off"? The only other way the gun went off is if it were dropped-maybe.

As to how this kid got the gun-who knows. He may have gotten it off the street. Slow down on blaming the parents.

[samsingh]

29. there are many people to blame for tragedies like this

[safeinOhio]

16. If you own a gun, you are responsible for it.

No excuses. The greatest enemy of the 2nd is careless gun ownership. If your child is smarter than you are, don't own a gun.

[slackmaster]

18. I support tax incentives to encourage people to buy safe storage devices for firearms

I paid almost $3,000 for a safe.

[aandegoons]

19. What?

I support tax incentives to buy my big screen tv.


Holy smokes I misspelled buy........

[slackmaster]

21. Your big screen TV won't make a very good weapon when some thug steals it

They're not going anywhere with my gun safe or its contents.

[aandegoons]

22. Ya it will he will have a bad back after he tries to walk off with it.

See I should get a tax break.

[safeinOhio]

20. Good idea.

Through in a huge tax penalty for forgetting to use it.

[Remmah2]

23. Build a walk in vault and insulate it.

Covered by the energy tax credits then.

[samsingh]

30. i agree

[glacierbay]

42. [phone]

If your going to have firearms in your house with children, then for christ sakes, invest in a decent safe, hell, have a safe even if you don't have children.

[safeinOhio]

48. My safe is in my safe room.

When not at home one would have to kick in 4 doors just to get to the safe. The out side door, bedroom door, bathroom door and then the closet door with a dead bolt on it. Once through the bedroom door I have a motion detector phone that calls my cell phone and I can listen in and hear what they are up to. Then have the sheriffs dept on speed dial. Have no kids or grandkids either.

Even with all of this, mistakes can happen and I take responsibility for those mistakes.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

35. VERY SAD

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2012, 12:47 PM - Edit history (1)

....and the pro gun advocates in gungeon land think nothing can be done except to arm every kid and teach them gun safety in elementary or middle school (probably like a show and tell and before they learn how to drive or take history or algebra).

Their solution to everything is MORE guns.

[glacierbay]

43. I would like you to point out one person in the gungeon

who has ever said that.
Basic gun safety should be taught in school, but no one has ever suggested that every kid should be armed.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

45. Gun Safety Without a Gun?

Right.

[glacierbay]

50. Gun safety with a prop gun, not a real one.

But you didn't answer the question, who in the gungeon has ever said that kids should be armed? Links?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

61. Ok

Maybe I assumed or inferred too much. I'll concede that.

For what purpose is there to teach gun safety if not to own a gun?

Otherwise, it's not needed.

[glacierbay]

65. Reason would be it a kid came across a gun

either in their parents home, a friends home or just out in public.
I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying teach them how to operate a gun, although they should know what a trigger is so's not to touch it, but what to do if they come across one.
The NRA's Eddie Eagle safety program is execellent.
I know that the NRA is verbotten to alot of people here, but here is an explaination of their Eddie Eagle safety program.

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

[fightthegoodfightnow]

71. I Support Gun Education

It's the responsibility of the gun owner to keep their guns secured safely and I support laws requiring that education for gun owners. why would we require that for kids who may never use a gun, but not for adults who will? Transferring gun responsibility to anyone other than gun owners will not have the desired effect. I also think that there are far better utilization of students time with reading and writing taking priority.

If guns are for recreation, then gun education is an important need for those inclined.
If guns are for protection, then that responsibility falls to adults.

I have no doubt the gun program you referenced is a good one.

[glacierbay]

72. I agree that the gun owner is responsible for the safe storage of firearms

What I'm saying is that if a kid comes across any firearm, for any reason, they should know what to do and it doesn't take all that long to teach them. The classroom setting is perfect for this as you can teach a group of children faster than teaching individualing.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

74. Responsibility

In my opinion, that's a parental, not governmental responsibility.

[glacierbay]

77. Absolutely

but how many parents actually teach their children what to do if they come across a firearm. An hour in a classroom of what to do in the event of finding a gun is well worth it IMHO.
Back in the day, when I was still a rookie, I used to visit various schools in the greater St. Louis area and would talk to the kids about what to do in the event of them coming across a firearm, it was well worth my time and the school system thought so also.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

85. Your Experience

I suspect you do that in a few schools here and all you'd be doing is teaching kids how to safely use their parent(s) or their own illegal gun safely for nefarious purposes.

[glacierbay]

88. It could be narrowly defined to what to do if a kid comes across a firearm

no more, no less.
Anyway, it's just an idea thrown out there to try to educate kids.
Thanks for the civil conversation.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

89. And you as well.

PS- I participated in a such training as a Boy Scout. Not trying to diminish it's importance, but rather under what circumstances.

[glacierbay]

95. Agreed. nt.

[Paladin]

73. An NRA-Directed Program In Public Schools?

Yeah, what could possibly go wrong with something like that? Can the kids look forward to the wit and wisdom of a Ted Nugent lecture?

Find another way to spread your gun-centric propaganda. Leave the kids alone......

[glacierbay]

75. Why don't you read the Link I provided first

before spouting off.
Here, I'll provide it again,

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

This has nothing to do with the NRA-ILA or the RW board members. This has nothing to do with gun ownership or how a gun works, theres not even firearms used.

[Paladin]

145. I Don't Need To Re-View The Link.

My history with the NRA would stun you to the point of disbelief, so there's no point in relating it to you. Happy Thanksgiving.

[glacierbay]

146. Fine.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too.

[Remmah2]

54. You can teach safe sex without screwing.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

55. Fair Enough

Good argument.

But I make a distinction between sex and guns, although you could argue one is over compensating for the other. Human sexuality is innately human. A gun is not. We need sex. We do not need guns.

[Remmah2]

64. Human sexuality is innately human as is the desire for self preservation.

Self preservation also includes my family. If you can't protect yourself or your partner, you can't have sex anymore.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

67. And yet you can

.

[Remmah2]

84. Touche'

Pretty funny if you read it with a warped mind.

[Hoyt]

111. Who is going to teach gun safety, some fool who spends weekends training to shoot people

and who believes more guns are good for society -- like those "trainers " certified by the right wing bigots at the NRA.

[glacierbay]

116. This program

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the NRA-ILA, the NRA board members, gun ownership, or even handling guns.

This program only tells children what to do if they come across a firearm, nothing to do with gun ownership.

And those "trainers" certified by the NRA are used in just about every LEA in the nation and across the world.

When I was a rookie I would visit schools in the greater St. Louis area and talk to the school children, alot of the material I used was straight from the NRA which the school district had no problem with.

Is your hatred of guns so intense that you even object to teaching children what to do if they find a gun? That's sad.

?w=491

[Hoyt]

119. Just what we don't need - those enamored with guns teaching kids.

How about preparing them for a society with a lot less guns, and where guns become viewed as undesirable. Your NRA certified folks don't get it.

[glacierbay]

122. What fucking part of this don't you understand

the Eddie Eagle safety program has NOTHING to do with gun ownership, how to handle guns, all it does is teach kids what to do in the event that they come across a gun, what is wrong with that? Is your hatred of guns so bad that you would deny kids the knowledge of what to do? Or is it your hatred of the NRA?

That's really pathetic that you would deny children of safety lessons.

The purpose of the Eddie Eagle Program isn’t to teach whether guns are good or bad, but rather to promote the protection and safety of children. The program makes no value judgments about firearms, and no firearms are ever used in the program. Like swimming pools, electrical outlets, matchbooks and household poison, they’re treated simply as a fact of everyday life. With firearms found in about half of all American households, it’s a stance that makes sense.

Eddie Eagle is never shown touching a firearm, and he does not promote firearm ownership or use. The program prohibits the use of Eddie Eagle mascots anywhere that guns are present. The Eddie Eagle Program has no agenda other than accident prevention – ensuring that children stay safe should they encounter a gun. The program never mentions the NRA. Nor does it encourage children to buy guns or to become NRA members. The NRA does not receive any appropriations from Congress, nor is it a trade organization. It is not affiliated with any firearm or ammunition manufacturers or with any businesses that deal in guns and ammunition.

[Hoyt]

125. Teach them what to do and that guns are not good for society, but don't use NRA folks who love guns.

[glacierbay]

127. Forget it Hoyt

Your hatred of guns and the NRA is obvious and you would deny children the best program there is to teach them what to do if they happen across an unsecured firearm.

Really, really sad.

[Hoyt]

139. Have a nice TGiving, GB.

[glacierbay]

140. You too

still luv ya Hoyt, frustrating as hell, but still luv ya. Offer stills stands on a ride along.

[Remmah2]

53. How clueless and delusional can one side get?

For shame.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

59. Good grief

The intellectual prowess is overwhelming.

Need a mirror for Christmas?

[Aerows]

51. Two young lives

both ruined. Horrible.

[Beaverhausen]

68. "The gun went off once..." Really? Guns just go off on their own?

this is bullshit. This is no accident. That poor girl

[upaloopa]

69. This my opinion. I am not interested in

the gun owners opinion. We all know what that is. They want to carry their guns anywhere they want.
Any thing contrary to that gets their shorts in a wad and they post all the same pro gun propaganda over and over like a one trick pony.
It's been posted here that since there is freedom shit happens. That's the extent of their concern when ever a post about gun violence appears.
I think in a case like this there are 3 victims. The young girl, the kid who shot her and society as a whole are victims. The perp is the gun owner who's gun was used in this tragedy.
That person should go to prison for a long time.
I don't want to here any of the gunner's self centered, self serving, narrow minded solutions like teaching gun lore in school.
Society which is a victim here demands more than "shit happens."
You gunners have no place in this thread in my opinion because you are not about feeling the sadness and sense of loss and frustration that the rest of society feels. You are just afraid the these killings will motivate society to take your guns away. I find that behavior disappointing.
Don't give us your usual response designed to put people like me on the defensive. I have no respect for your gun culture or your opinion.
Don't bother to answer me because I won't read your response. Just have your posse delete my post like you usually do. I won't care. I said what I wanted.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

76. Wow

....and I didn't think anyone could be more gun control than me.

You Are 100% right about the posse.

[glacierbay]

78. Most idiotic post of the day

Congrats.

[PavePusher]

83. The day's not half over yet....

Plenty of time for the stupid to spread/breed.

[slackmaster]

80. Your post also makes DU suck.

You don't have any concrete, workable solutions to offer. Only vitriol.

[Hoyt]

112. I'm sure gungeon second amendment worshipers will call that "idiotic." But it's not.

[Carolina]

114. Bravo, upaloopa!

I couldn't agree more. I am so sick of the excuses everytime these acts of violence happen!

Guns serve one purpose: violent destruction of targets and animals (for sport?!) or people (for assorted reasons)

[Judi Lynn]

128. Thanks for finding the words. You speak for many. n/t

[glacierbay]

130. And in the real world

he speaks for the minority.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/polls-say-americans-against-gun-control

There is no appitite for stricter gun control in the country.

[Judi Lynn]

136. No appetite for a sane, non-reactionary world? I doubt it. n/t

[Sunlei]

94. how tragic and on a bus full of kids.

[graham4anything]

102. Another LEGAL gun another death. Carnage. When is it going to end? Ban ALL guns in the street

and a simple metal detector everywhere could pinpoint a gun on a street and it could be dealt with.

But until they get rid of legal guns, no one is safe

[Blandocyte]

105. We need a total ban!

Mr. and Ms. America, turn 'em in! Ah, let's let 'em all keep just one if they already had one.

[glacierbay]

108. And attitudes like this is exactly why our party is seen as anti gun

even though Pres. Obama has actually increased firearms rights.
And you don't get to decide what we can keep or how many we can keep.

[Blandocyte]

113. A huge portion of the party is anti-gun

Guns should not be at parties anyway. And if I was the one who could decide what/how many you could keep, you would only be able to have some PITA Ruger Mk III and one mag.

[glacierbay]

118. Well, you don't get to decide.

And your assertation of the huge portion of the Dem Party is anti gun is just not true, last I saw, about 44% of Dems are gun owners.

[Blandocyte]

141. Maybe that 44% would be willing to give them up

as a good example. Sanity is a good example.

[glacierbay]

147. There are millions of Dems who own guns

and I'm one of them, I'm not going to give up my 2A right just because you don't like them, as I suspect the millions of other Dems wouldn't give theirs up.
I'm a hunter, I enjoy hunting for my own food, millions of people in this country hunt to put food on their table, also, if Dems gave up their guns, then repukes would be the only ones with guns.
Are you sured you want to go down that road?

[PavePusher]

159. "a good example" of... what?

Will the criminals then give up their guns? Will people stop being stupid or foolish or careless?

[Remmah2]

155. We need a total ban on humans.

If we didn't have humans they couldn't kill one another.

[glacierbay]

109. Maybe you can finally answer me this

do you honestly believe that the thugs will obey any gun laws passed?

[PavePusher]

158. This word, "LEGAL"....

[jberryhill]

126. Thank goodness it was an accident

That must come as a big relief to everyone involved.

[glacierbay]

129. Who said that?

I doubt very seriously that's the case, matter of fact, I can say with certainty that's not the case.

[LisaL]

131. Considering the girl is just as dead, how does it come as a big relief to everyone involved?

[jberryhill]

132. Could have been worse

[LisaL]

137. How, exactly?

If authorities believed it was deliberate, he would likely face a much harsher punishment.
But they are saying it was an "accident," so he isn't likely to face a harsh punishment.
So how does it make it all better?

[jberryhill]

138. If your kid shot some other kid...

Then would you prefer to find out it was accidental or intentional?

[Marrah_G]

135. In MA I believe the gun owner would be arrested in this case.

[riderinthestorm]

142. Guns don't kill people, people do. If this boy had a knife, he might have "accidentally" stabbed her

or something like that....

[Doctor_J]

148. Would you be happier if he'd accidentally beat her with a bat?

Cue the NRA talking points

[glacierbay]

154. Cue the anti gun talking points.

Right on time.

[ileus]

163. At home and the range is where you display your firearms...school is for learning.

[struggle4progress]

164. "Don't worry! I know what I'm ... oops!"

[Blue_Tires]

180. I wonder if the school could be held liable, too

since it's being reported that this wasn't the first time he brought the gun to school?!?!

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/26/3114687/friends-family-bury-teen-killed.html