At least 6 killed (now 15 children dead), over 30 wounded in Hezbollah attack; IDF probing why rocket not downed
Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2024, 08:00 AM - Edit history (2)
Source: Times of Israel
in the northern Golan Heights, July 27, 2024. (Ayal Margolin/Flash90)
At least six were killed and more than 30 were wounded in the Hezbollah rocket attack on Majdal Shams in the northern Golan Heights this evening.
The death toll is expected to rise, as at least three are listed in critical condition.
The IDF assesses that the rocket that struck the soccer field where kids were playing was relatively heavy.
The military is investigating why it failed to intercept the projectile.
Top IDF brass are currently holding assessments on the attack, the deadliest by Hezbollah amid the ongoing skirmishes on the northern border, and will determine a response against the terror group.
Read more: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/at-least-6-killed-over-30-wounded-in-hezbollah-attack-idf-probing-why-rocket-not-downed/
The rocket landed at a soccer game in a Druze community in Northern Israel. As many as 15 children are dead, 30+ wounded, 15 critically. This is really bad.
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oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)This is what they & has DO. ALL the time. They WANT civilian deaths.
Time to find some more hezbollah "leaders" to incinerate & maybe a few weapons warehouses too.
Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . that this could easily turn into another full-blown war.
Of course, it'll all be Israel's fault. 
questionseverything
(11,057 posts)So using this as an excuse to escalate is just that, an excuse
SlimJimmy
(3,251 posts)Yet, I see folks on DU quoting the nearly every day. So, no comment on the children that Hamas killed, or is that Israel's fault also?
questionseverything
(11,057 posts)I feel bad anytime anyone is killed, not alone a child but the idf has been pummeling the Palestinians for 3/4 year so why be surprised when a group attacks back?
AZLD4Candidate
(6,673 posts)And. . .so much for all blood being equal when you say "the idf has been pummeling the Palestinians for 3/4 year so why be surprised when a group attacks back?"
I'm sure all those dead Jewish children had a lot to do with what the IDF does.
questionseverything
(11,057 posts)Exactly what did the Palestinian children do to deserve what the idf and all their supporters done?
AZLD4Candidate
(6,673 posts)Moving on. I am not going down this rabbit hole.
questionseverything
(11,057 posts)What i am saying is , if one side repeatedly attacks the other , no one should be surprised when the “other “ attacks back
The pro idf types ignore the facts about bombings and deaths of the innocent Palestinians but then want outrage and support when it happens to them… I just don’t buy into that
Mosby
(18,793 posts)One side is repeatedly attacking the other, in the 1920s 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, 2020s. That side would be the Arab Palestinians.
onandup
(701 posts)Hm.
AZLD4Candidate
(6,673 posts)When they get attacked, they are wrong
It they fight back, they are wrong.
Gotcha! I now understand.
Your attempts to backtrack and defend Hamas are duly noted.
Orrex
(65,510 posts)To be clear, Hamas and Hezbollah are disgusting terrorist regimes that should be eliminated to their last member. None of the harm or deaths that they have inflicted are justified.
But do you suppose that Israel is above reproach? Can you think of anything that they could perhaps do better?
PCIntern
(27,473 posts)It is not an NFL or MLB game that has rules which everyone is expected to follow.
What world do some people live in? One side talks annihilation of the Jews, the Jews begin to teach them the meaning of that word. Not good when it happens to the original perpetrators? Should have thought of that BEFORE they broke the cease fire and mutilated, killed and kidnapped.
Tired of this “going high” nonsense.
Orrex
(65,510 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2024, 10:49 AM - Edit history (1)
So it's a war. Got it. How many Palestinian children can the extraordinarily well-funded US ally kill before that ally loses its blank-check presumption of absolute moral authority in this?
It's usually at this point that the accusations of antisemitism and/or about supporting Hamas start to fly. Since those accusations are bullshit, I encourage you to refrain.
Cha
(312,968 posts)to Be Attacked and they got What they Asked For. 
NickB79
(19,976 posts)After which, the people of Gaza elected Hamas, who campaigned on the total extermination of the Jews, wherever they hid. And then proceeded to attack Israel with rockets, suicide attacks and finally 10/7 for almost 20 years.
No other nation ON EARTH would put up with that level of aggression.
When your enemies are hellbent on wiped you out for simply existing, there is no "do better", short of every Jew in Israel packing their bags and catching the next flight out. The only thing that will change the calculus of this conflict is for the Arab world to jettison their anti-Semitism and enter the 21st century.
Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . of the Palestinian politician or leader who is asking for and working towards a true peace with Israel? Slipped my mind I'm afraid.
Orrex
(65,510 posts)Please tell me that you know that's an asinine question. Hamas has held power since long before most living Palestinians could vote. You know that, right? You must not know that, because that same "they voted for Hamas" bullshit gets rolled out whenever anyone suggests that maybe, just maybe, Netanyahu could stop murdering Palestinian children.
Of course, by your "logic," the people of Israel must support Netanyahu's unrelenting campaign of murder, since they voted for him.
While you're at it, remind us of the name of the Israel political leader, one with any actual power or influence in the government, who is asking for and working towards a true peace with Palestine?
SlimJimmy
(3,251 posts)see, or sets up what you see. And many buy right into it.
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Over 70% of them backed the October attacks
So they're a part of the problem.
One day maybe that 70% will tire of living like animals & toss out their terrorist leaders, accept the fact that Israel isnt going anywhere & THEN they can live in peace
questionseverything
(11,057 posts)When Hamas controls everything in Gaza, from food, water, shelter and work it’s no surprise anyone who wants to live would pretend to support them, wether they did or not
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)And if its answered because of fear, why did they elect them? and why haven't they asked Arab nations for help getting RID of them?
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)As the pollsters state:
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/985
Of course that doesn't fit the Israeli narrative. But maybe knowing this, will soften some hearts towards Palestinians.
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect".
Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war.
Two thirds think Hamas’ decision to launch the October 7 attack was correct
91% think Hamas did not commit atrocities on October 7
61% say they prefer to have Hamas in control of the Gaza Strip after the war
Ok, let's note that support for this attack does not necessarily mean support for Hamas and does not mean support for any killings or atrocities committed against civilians. How does this change the reported survey results? Let's see: 72% still support the Hamas attack on Israel, 72% still voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war, 66% still think Hamas' decision to launch the attack was correct, 91% still don't think Hamas committed atrocities, 61% still prefer Hamas rule over Gaza.
So let's also note that, regardless of the previous note, they still overwhelmingly support Hamas. But not necessarily because Hamas committed any killings or atrocities. Even though 91% don't think Hamas committed any.
...Did you have a point to make about Palestinians not supporting Hamas? Somehow, it doesn't come across at all. What does the Israeli narrative have to do with this survey? And how will this survey soften some hearts towards Palestinians?
I can't roll my eyes fast enough...
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Until they accept that Israel WILL continue to exist they will continue to live as they do. Meanwhile most Arab countries live mostly at peace with Israel; no attacks in either direction. Many of those countries had been at war with Israel for decades. No more. They live in peace. The ones that dont; see Syria & Iran.
How hard is it for the Palestinians to understand?
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)they do not necessarily support Hamas' atrocities when they support Hamas.
It's like arguing that the 91% of Gremans who were ignorant of concentration camps did not necessarily support Hitler for his Final Solution.
No shit! This idiotic perversion of logical reasoning didn't work too well for the German people.
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)"Well if I had actually SEEN any atrocities I would have been against them!"
Ghost of Tom Joad
(1,421 posts)How do they take polls in Gaza with all the destruction? I'm not being snarky just curious, if we don't know the exact death count how are polls conducted?
Richard D
(10,018 posts)AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Pretty impressive. I wonder how including the North would change the results.
The sample size of this poll was 1570 adults, of whom 760 were interviewed face-to-face in the West Bank (in 76 residential locations) and 750 in the Gaza Strip (in 75 locations). Due to the uncertainty about the exact population size and distribution at that moment in the Gaza Strip, we almost doubled the sample size in that area in order to reduce the margin of error. The total sample was reweighted to reflect the actual relative size of the population in the two Palestinian areas. Thus, the sample used is representative of the entire populations of the two regions. The margin of error stands at +/-3%.
For further details, contact PSR director, Dr. Khalil Shikaki, or Walid Ladadweh at tel. 02-296 4933 or email pcpsr@pcpsr.org
Methodology of data collection in the Gaza Strip:
As we did in our previous poll three months ago, 75 communities were selected from residents of Rafah, Khan Younis, Al-Mawasi, Deir al-Balah and other areas in the central Gaza Strip and from the displaced people who were sheltering in those areas under the instructions of the Israeli army, so that these communities were either "counting areas," according to the classification of the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics, as was done in Rafah, some areas of Khan Younis and the central Gaza Strip, or displaced communities in built-up shelters, which are schools and other institutions affiliated with the government or UNRWA, or tent gatherings located in the areas of Rafah, Khan Younis, Al-Mawasi and the central Gaza Strip. The sample was drawn according to the following methodology:
1) In the "counting areas" specified by the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics, where the number of these areas reached 29.
2) In the built-up shelters, a regular random sample was withdrawn from the lists of these centers that were obtained, representing all the shelter centers in western Rafah, Deir al-Balah and other areas in central Gaza Strip, Rafah and Khan Younis areas, and the number of these areas reached 20.
3) In the tent gatherings in the areas of Rafah, Khan Younis, Al-Mawasi and the central Gaza Strip, where satellite maps showing the locations of these communities were relied upon. These areas were divided into blocks and a regular random sample of 26 blocks was drawn.
In each "counting area", built-up shelter, or tent gathering, 10 people were randomly selected for interviews while taking into account gender and age distribution. Refusal to conduct interviews was 9%.
It is worth noting that 51% of the public in the Gaza Strip say they were displaced to their current location, where they were interviewed, because of the Israeli invasion of Rafah starting on May 6, while the remaining 49% say they were not displaced to their current location because of that particular attack.
AZLD4Candidate
(6,673 posts)Pretend to support them? The election results in 2006 speak LOUD. But you keep trying. It's fun to watch.
questionseverything
(11,057 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(6,673 posts)Orrex
(65,510 posts)oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Orrex
(65,510 posts)Actual counts of actual bodies in Gaza? "THAT'S HAMAS PROPAGANDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Data-mining a poll of people under extreme duress? "THIS PROVES THAT PALESTINIANS DESERVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)So far they choose not to.
They could ask Arab nations for help getting rid of Hamas. They never do. Claim "poll under duress" all you want; THEY put them in charge to start with knowing what they would get.
Official stance of Hamas & most Palestinians is that Israel has no right to exist. Keep that point of view & continue to live like animals. Look at the Arab nations that have accepted them; all living peacefully.
Orrex
(65,510 posts)Does that seem like a reasonable expectation?
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Why aren't THEY being demanded to give up land?
Orrex
(65,510 posts)Is Jordan actively working to expand its footprint in the occupied territories? I.e., are they bulldozing (and carpet bombing) existing homes in order to make room for Jordanian settlements?
If so, you're right; that's horrible and they should stop.
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Nobody. Why? This isnt a question of occupied territories; most of which was taken in battle when Israel was under attack. Its the point of the stated desire for the TOTAL removal of Israel.
Tough shit for the LOSERS
Orrex
(65,510 posts)oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)AloeVera
(3,242 posts)The "70% support Hamas!" claim is false. It needs to be refuted at every opportunity. It's a dangerous talking point used to justify... well, you know.
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)The awkwardly contrived conclusions in Post #28 are false.
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Keep excusing their terrorist ways
They'll keep living in squalor as they continue to try to prove a point that doesnt exist.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)As VP Harris says, nuance is important.
Aside from that important fact, it's not surprising for people to disbelieve their "side" is or has committed atrocities. I've seen that side of human nature play out consistently over the last nearly 10 months.
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)The comment you quoted refers to 9% of the people surveyed.
It doesn't apply to the other 91%.
So you are talking about 9% of the Palestinians being fifteen times more likely to believe that Hamas fighters committed atrocities on October 7 than the 91%.
And why, may I ask, are the 91% of Palestinians so ignorant of the atrocities committed by Hamas?
SlimJimmy
(3,251 posts)at DU would realize what you just said is the hard truth.
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)Let’s sit on this awhile. I feel so horrible for Israelis. Another day of senseless terrorist deaths. It’s gross. When are these poor people going to get a break? It’s heartbreaking.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)I'm just going to keep repeating that.
Scarlet Begalas
(54 posts)Here we go with the whataboutism. Gotta stand up for those Muslim terrorists!
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Richard D
(10,018 posts)HEZBOLLAH ROCKET ATTACK kills 10+ children, ages 10-20, critically and seriously injured: 34+ mostly children, in Majdal Shams - north Golan Druze city.
‼️HEZBOLLAH fired a drone (unknown if suicide or info gathering) at the Harish GAS RIG in the Med. IDF Navy intercepted.
🔹Hezbollah have evacuated their front line bases, assuming an incoming Israeli response.
🔹
( Inject standard Israeli propaganda here. )) An Israeli source: Israel will reveal and use various weapons, which the world has not yet known. They are now preparing for a severe escalation, and for a response that will change the face of the war with Hezbollah.
🔹We’ve seen various reports on type of attack. Initially thought suicide drone. Then Fajir heavy rocket. Another report says Grad 122 - which is a smaller rocket but videos which caught the event seem to show a larger explosion.
🔹 Unconfirmed ) The head of the Druze community: "I give a 4-hour ultimatum to the state to respond or we remove responsibility and take control of the event!" (( Reminder: during the Syrian civil war when Druze towns were under attack in Syria, the Israeli Druze marched across the border to defend. ))
🔹POLITICS.. Several opposition politicians insulting the PM for not being in the country. Some commentary voices insulting the PM for not jumping on the national jet and heading right back, immediately. And a number demanding immediate strong action against Hezbollah, both opposition (Gantz) and coalition (Ben Gvir).
🔥WILDFIRES in the Golan due to today’s rocket attacks.
Horror upon horror.
Weapons not seen by the world?
Severe escalation?
Please no. Please let saner heads prevail.
Response to AloeVera (Reply #5)
Post removed
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)N/T
PufPuf23
(9,482 posts)Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . called Israel Realtime.
Join ISRAEL REALTIME 🎗️"Connecting the World to Israel in Realtime"
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question everything
(50,616 posts)Hezbollah initially claimed responsibility for a barrage of rockets at the area and a nearby military base. As news emerged of the rocket hitting the Druze town, and the deadly outcome of the strike, the terror group issued a statement that it had “absolutely nothing to do with the incident.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/11-killed-mostly-children-dozens-more-hurt-as-rocket-hits-soccer-field-in-majdal-shams/
cabotnn22
(136 posts)They hit Druze, not Jews. Of course they're going to lie. They were proud and celebrating the attack before they realized who they killed.
The Druze are fierce fighters. They already want Israel to retaliate. They've said if Israel doesn't, they will. In Lebanon, the Druze are armed to the teeth. I have a feeling Lebanon is in for a world of hurt.
R Merm
(431 posts)And the police force, etc.
Richard D
(10,018 posts)"We know exactly where the rocket was launched from. We examined the remains of the rocket on the soccer field wall and identified it as a Falaq rocket with a fifty-three kilogram warhead. This is a Hezbollah rocket. Whoever fires such a rocket into an urban area intends to kill civilians, to kill children," Halevi stated in a video message from the scene.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)Which will affect the election here.
Response to Meowmee (Reply #29)
Skittles This message was self-deleted by its author.
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Incinerate those areas. One massive attack in one day.
Warpy
(113,680 posts)from one side of the border to the other.
Blinken has apparently given Netanyahu the green light to invade the border area.
Here we go again. At least this time we know who's funding the worst of the protests and supplying the scripts for them.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Got any receipts or just taking Netanyahu's "word" for it like the GOP lemmings at his speech to Congress?
In any case, I am sure that will be a comfort to the Lebanese kids and civilians potentially about to be incinerated like the civilians in Gaza.
Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . that one of the best ways to avoid needless civilian deaths is to not start a war.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)And when that truism is used, it should not be used however to whitewash or excuse war crimes that cause needless deaths and suffering.
You may not agree with the principle that the occupied have a right to resist, or deny that Gaza was occupied as recognized by the ICJ and most countries, and while
we both abhor the form it took on Oct 7th,
the fact remains that the conflict did not start on Oct 7th and Palestinians cannot start any wars against their occupiers. There is also the question of whether an occupier has the right to self-defence to begin with.
Just as you claim there would be no war without Oct 7th, I claim there would be no Oct 7th without the occupation and the long history of expulsions, land confiscations, bad-faith peace negotiations and brutal oppression and apartheid.
See the recent Advisory Opinion by the ICJ on the status of the OPT and Israel's practice of apartheid. It's a vindication of this POV.
Richard D
(10,018 posts)So she made me do it.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Awful.
Richard D
(10,018 posts)I'm not going for the best here.
I know many people who would answer the age-old question of why there are rocks on the moon with "It's Israel's fault."
In this case, a terrorist organization, for no reason at all, bombed civilians. And people are finding advanced yogic poses to twist it around to it's Israel's fault. Good job. Didn't take long at all.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Clearly I was talking about the "war" on Gaza and the occupation. Why do you twist that around to claim I was defending Hezbollah? I made no comment on that except to say it was a horror and I hope saner heads would prevail.
Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . is an interesting distinction, as both are supported by Iran, and Hezbollah, in their weird Islamist fever dream are somehow supporting Gaza by attacking Israel. On a side note, I find it sickly hilarious that Hezbollah celebrated the deaths at the soccer game until they found out that they killed Druze Arabs; then, oops, we didn't do it.
Something to consider:
If a black person tells you you are racist, it's good to listen.
If a woman tells a man he is sexist and misogynist, he should listen.
If an old person tells you you are ageist, consider that.
but if a Jew tells you you are displaying antisemetic ideas, definitely deny it.
I actually had one ex-friend who, because of a rabid antisemite, told me he could not possibly be an antisemite because one of his great-grandparents was Jewish, and (drum roll) some of his best friends are Jewish.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)That trying to defend oneself against charges of anti-semitism is a fool's game. Not going there.
Except to say that, oddly enough, I too have Jewish great-grandparents. I'm from the "old country" and let me tell you I have seen real anti-semitism. Sadly sometimes from within my own family... Life sucks sometimes.
I would hold the same views on I/P and Gaza if it were the Palestinians bombing and occupying Jews and all the other stuff. My thing is pacifism, human rights and justice. Perhaps that's why I've fought anti-semitism all my life.
So there, I did respond after all. How could I not, as you knew. It will likely prove my initial point as now you will denigrate or dismiss, bring in self-hate or whatever. But you don't know my heart so please no more of this.
Richard D
(10,018 posts)I will strive to be less reactive. However, this is a complex and subtle topic that needs more attention—not in a personal way toward you, but toward a lot I have seen and noticed in the last nine months.
To have antisemitism does not always mean waving a nazi flag or chanting Jews will not replace us or shouting from the river to the sea. It can also subtly manifest, in this propaganda-strewn world, in what a person chooses to believe. In the horrific case of post-10/7, for example, is the Gaza death toll unquestionably believed when we know that the numbers are coming out of a terrorist organization with much to gain from enraging the world against Israel? And who happens to be fantastic at pushing propaganda?
Then there is the idea you stated that Israel is an occupier. This is such a dense topic that I'm not going to get into it as I have real-world work to do today. But it reminds me of something I have noticed in my travels. All over the world, you will find people who sneeringly complain about tourists - who also are tourists but do not recognize it or admit it. This has led to my definition of "tourist" as anyone who arrives in a location more than a few days after the person using the word did.
Every single person living in the United States who is not Native American is an occupier. But somehow, that is OK, and we're really not because of reasons.
91% of Palestinians do not know of the atrocities their government and people committed, even though there are videos of Gazans chanting praise to Allah at the deaths of Jews. But Hamas said it, so it must be true. And as was mentioned in this post, who and how are taking the polls? But it's instantly believed, and the Israelis are instantly not believed because of Netanyahu.
I have in this community of DU I have been a member of for well over 20 years. Since 10/7 I have seen all of the common antisemetic tropes used but with a socially acceptable liberal flavor. I will maybe someday make a separate post on this, but it'll probably get me kicked out.
So I go back, if a Jew tells a person that they are antisemetic, they should consider if they are. More, they should study the easily accessible lists of antisemetic tropes and honestly inquire if they are falling into any of them. To be clear, this may not be happening on a conscious level, but on the level of what one believes to be true.
raging moderate
(4,584 posts)One should always always ask oneself: Is this the truth, or is it not the truth? It is possible that what seems true is actually a lie.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)I have to sleep on this, to give it the response it deserves.
Orrex
(65,510 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2024, 07:01 PM - Edit history (1)
If a black person tells you that you're racist because you object to them killing children by the thousands, then maybe you're not actually so racist after all.
If a woman tells a man that he's sexist and misogynist because he objects to her cutting off access for international food & medical aid for injured and starving civilians, then maybe he's not actually so sexist or misogynist after all.
For the record, and in hope of preempting the inevitable "You're an antisemitic Hamas sympathizer" accusations that tend to follow, let me state plainly: Hamas is a disgusting terrorist regime that must be destroyed to its last member, and Hezbollah likewise. To date, no one has explained how bombing and starving Palestinian civilians might accomplish that goal.
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)If a black person tells you you are a racist and you don't listen, you will never find out why they called you a racist.
etc.
After all, that makes racism, etc. easier to justify with a "because" of one's own choice.
Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . if a person is racist, is it someone else's fault? Then, there's no hope for change.
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)And when a black person tells them they are, they will make up a string of incongruous ulterior motives for why that black person calls them a racist so they can deny being racist after all. The fact that a black person knows a racist better than a racist does is irrelevant to them. They will insist that the black person is wrong and they are right.
If racists were to listen to the actual victim of racism, they would risk discovering that they are full of shit. They will not listen. Maintaining ignorance on the subject is fundamental to their bigotry.
Richard D
(10,018 posts)100% in accord.
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)Richard D
(10,018 posts)That's something! Now it's 9001
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Its not just "We need a State of our own". It hasnt been that way since 1947
Until the Palestinians accept that Israel is NOT going anywhere & push to get rid of terrorist leadership, they'll continue to live like 4th class people.
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)No sympathy here.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Response to oldsoftie (Reply #52)
bidance Spam deleted by MIR Team
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Also - were those Druze/Arab victims Israeli or Syrian citizens?
Richard D
(10,018 posts)AloeVera
(3,242 posts)They were kids, innocent. Horrible, unnecessary loss of life.
But fyi, I found out the answer. It doesn't matter.
Peace.
Richard D
(10,018 posts)AloeVera
(3,242 posts)But you know - and I have to say this - I wish so much there would be mourning for all kids, no matter who they are, even the "enemy's" children. I just don't see much acknowledgement, let alone grief, for the suffering of Palestinian children. It's like they don't really exist for many Israelis or allies. I find that incredibly sad and unfathomable. It's what keeps me speaking up and it seems I'm just screaming into the abyss.
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)The Majdal Shams attack is only the latest in a long series of attacks. The entire north of Israel had been evacuated because of Hezbollah attacks. And if Hezbollah attacked Syria, what is Syria's reaction to it?
And I am pretty sure that all of the children killed in the attack were Israeli legal residents.
Warpy
(113,680 posts)there is no way will will actually, truthfully, for ever and ever, etched in stone and passed down through the ages, know that.
What we do know is that this was a small city near the border, close to the Syrian border, and inhabited by Druze, who are Arabs. The flight path was most likely very, very short, just from the location of Hezbollah positions and the location of the town.
Hexbollah will crow that Israel didn't want to protect Arabs. Israel will claim Hezbollah doesn't care who they murder. And so it goes.
EX500rider
(11,933 posts)Israel will respond with force like every other country would if the country next door fired rockets across the border and killed civilians.
What exactly to you think they should do, say "tut, tut, naughty Hezbollah" and call it a day?
BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)Americans (and Europeans to an extent) often comment on this issue from a position of privilege.
If Mexican nationalists claiming CA, AZ, NM and TX were firing hundreds of rockets a day into San Diego, LA, Phoenix, Tucson, El Paso and Houston, the response from the US government would not be "negotiations," and residents of those cities would demand immediate decisive military action.
SlimJimmy
(3,251 posts)AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Not like in Gaza.
EX500rider
(11,933 posts)You strike hard and long enough to degrade to near zero your enemies ability to strike or they surrender, which ever comes 1st
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)But that does seem to be the preferred method. Hasn't worked well in Gaza though.
Do you not fear a regional conflagration and the human cost of that?
EX500rider
(11,933 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2024, 03:59 PM - Edit history (1)
How many rockets has Hamas fired into Israel lately compared to the start of the war?
How many Hamas terrorists have crossed the border to rape, kidnap and kill Israel civilians since the start of the war?
Do you not fear a regional conflagration and the human cost of that?
Who do you think is going to step up and help Hezbollah?
Iran already does and I don't think they want the IDF to start leveling their oil production facilities by upping the ante.
In 2023, oil exports made up more than 40% of Iran's total export revenue. Petroleum also accounts for 80% of Iran's exports overall. Iran's economy and government revenues are still largely dependent on oil revenues, even though the country is relatively diversified for an oil exporter
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)There is no good, and very bad, from an all-out attack on Lebanon. I have read the Administration is working to de-escalate. By that they mean a proportional response. There are very good reasons for that, one being electoral.
Personally, think the madness should stop now, on all sides. No more attacks. With a ceasefire, Hezbollah will stop too. But there are bad-faith actors and war-mongers who make these decisions and civilians and kids pay the price.
No, I don't think the annihilation of Gaza will lead to any good either. The rockets have stopped, sure. But how many kids saw their parents or siblings get crushed or incinerated before their eyes and where will those kids be in 10 years time? Just like Hamas, the 2.0 version will use their grief and anger for recruitment.
The cycle of violence is the problem.
Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . the cycle of violence seems pre-destined.
On the other hand, well, German and Japan both suffered horrific civilian losses in WWII. While accurate figures are not findable, Germany had between half a million to 2 million civilian deaths, and Japan lost between 500,000 to 800,000 civilians (damn good thing for all of us that the ICJ wasn't around then!). Yet they did not carry that anger into the rest of the 20th and 21st century. At least I have not heard about Japanese or German terrorists attacking the allied forces countries since they surrendered.
Could the same thing happen in Gaza and the WB? Is there something about Arabic people that precludes them from joining the 21st century civilizations? If we say yes, we're racists. If we say no, we abuse human possibility. Personally, I am holding the vision for a peaceful and prosperous Middle East for all. Niaeve, probably, but it doesn't hurt to hope. And the Abraham Accord certainly could be the beginning of beacon of hope lighting up the rest of that region.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)You could say that the Abraham Accords in some ways led to October 7th. It's a harsh view, I know, but it's shared by many and it's not far-fetched. It gave nothing to Palestinians except some vague promise that Israel would endeavour towards a solution. Which didn't happen. The Accords not just sidelined the Palestinian issue but made it pretty much invisible and forgotten. It was the despair and anger, the sense of betrayal too, that fomented the necessary hatred to carry out October 7th.
In fact even the the State Department under Trump warned that the Accords and the normalization were leading to further radicalization of terrorist groups. No one listened, right up to October 7th.
And now the Knesset has essentially outlawed a 2-state solution. So what is there left? Is Israel willing to give ANYTHING to Palestinians?
And why is the cycle of violence pre-destined? Are you saying that nothing is going to change either in Israel's policies or Palestinians' rage and despair? It's not an equal fight, it has not been for nearly 50 years, you could say more. Might makes right in this world and that will always lead to resistance and efforts to re-balance towards some justice.
As for the WWII analogies, I don't buy that. There is not a shred of commonality with the circumstances of Palestinians. Germans and Japanese were clearly the agressors, annexed illegally in the case of Germany, had their own nation-state to begin with, they were not expelled from their homeland and barred from returning (Berlin Wall notwithstanding), their occupation by the Allies was time-limited and they had the Marshall Plan. "Befriending" and showing compassion and humanity, giving vast financial assistance for reconstruction to your former enemies - all of this goes a long way toward healing and reconciliation. Is Israel willing to do that now?
I have seen a lot of that "why are they not like Germans, why can't they just let bygones be bygones like civilized people"? It's absurd to me that those arguing this don't see they are comparing apples and oranges and then blaming Palestinians for not being the right kind of fruit. Or rotten fruit, because they just won't accept that they've been plucked and plundered like "civilized" people.
And yes, I do see subtle Islamophobia and racism at work in these types of arguments. Similar to how you see suppressed anti-Semitism bubbling to the surface in people who are very vocal in their criticism of Israel.
Response to Warpy (Reply #32)
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GP6971
(35,741 posts)
James48
(4,874 posts)Only those who have losses, and those who have bigger losses.
Pray that the war ends soon.
Aussie105
(7,100 posts)Taking sides is pointless.
History will judge at some future date 'who started it', who the 'good guys' are, and who the 'bad guys' are.
All sensible people can do currently is lament the needless loss of life, the loss of childhood innocence, and hope/pray that the killing stops soon.
Response to Richard D (Original post)
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oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)They're the ones who crave civilian deaths
Response to oldsoftie (Reply #53)
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oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)“We have the Israelis right where we want them,” Yahya Sinwar told other Hamas leaders recently, according to one of the messages, the WSJ reported Monday. In another, Sinwar is said to have described civilian deaths as “necessary sacrifices”
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/middleeast/sinwar-hamas-israel-ceasefire-hostage-talks-intl/index.html
Response to oldsoftie (Reply #66)
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Response to Richard D (Original post)
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Hieronymus Phact
(625 posts)The Golan heights was not 'illegally seized' at all. it was taken legitimately during the 6 day war.
The reason they took it was the Syrians used it's height advantage to bomb Israeli villages, and farms in the lowlands. This went on for 20 years. I'll repeat that: The Syrians used the Golan heights to bomb Israeli civilians for 20 years. Being a elevated area also prevented the Israelis from doing much about these war crimes. They complained at the UN about it but due to a Russian veto, nothing changed .
Then the Six-Day War happened, and the Israelis made a successful attempt to dislodge the Syrians from this protected, strategic location. It was an unexpected victory due to the advantages the Syrians had.
There is absolutely nothing "illegal" about that in any way at all. They were and are, in a formal, declared, mutual, war with the Syrians and Lebanon and a bunch of others.
"In the period between the first Arab–Israeli War and the Six-Day War, the Syrians constantly harassed Israeli border communities by firing artillery shells from their dominant positions on the Golan Heights.[113] In October 1966 Israel brought the matter up before the United Nations. Five nations sponsored a resolution criticizing Syria for its actions but it failed to pass due to a Soviet veto.[114][115]."
Response to Hieronymus Phact (Reply #73)
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AloeVera
(3,242 posts)With the exception of Trump, of course.
Your post is illuminating about how Israel and supporters are at odds with the views of the rest of the world on just about everything.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Golan_Heights#:~:text=The%20Golan%20Heights%20are%20a,by%20Israel%20under%20military%20occupation.
In March 2019, the United States, which previously considered the Golan Heights to be occupied, became the first country to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the territory it has held since 1967. The rest of the international community continues to view the territory as Syrian, held under Israeli occupation.[3][4] The European Union members of the United Nations Security Council issued a joint statement condemning the US announcement and the UN Secretary-General António Guterres issued a statement saying that the status of the Golan Heights had not changed.[21][22][23] The Arab League denounced the US move, declaring that "Trump's recognition does not change the area's status."[24]
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)belligerent state. Occupation is a legal status, as Hieronymus Phact rightfully noted:
The reason they took it was the Syrians used it's height advantage to bomb Israeli villages, and farms in the lowlands. This went on for 20 years. I'll repeat that: The Syrians used the Golan heights to bomb Israeli civilians for 20 years. Being a elevated area also prevented the Israelis from doing much about these war crimes. They complained at the UN about it but due to a Russian veto, nothing changed .
Then the Six-Day War happened, and the Israelis made a successful attempt to dislodge the Syrians from this protected, strategic location. It was an unexpected victory due to the advantages the Syrians had.
There is absolutely nothing "illegal" about that in any way at all. They were and are, in a formal, declared, mutual, war with the Syrians and Lebanon and a bunch of others.
So how exactly is the international community's view at odds with the post you responded to?
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)And I believe Israel has actually given some of the G BACK some years ago. Fat lot of good it did them
Response to Richard D (Original post)
bidance Spam deleted by MIR Team
Swede
(36,728 posts)nt
yourout
(8,493 posts)We humans sure have a knack for killing each other.
HarryM
(403 posts)To the “Iron Shield?” Just wondering if it’s getting a little too rusty. 😉
maxsolomon
(36,896 posts)Look up how it works. What's amazing is that it works at all.
And it's known as the "Iron Dome". Welcome to DU.
AloeVera
(3,242 posts)Before anyone tells me that children are children (as are Palestinian children), it's an important fact to know for anyone interested in pursuing the truth of what happened.
I see lots of folks here an elsewhere saying this was an intentional attack on civilians. Can someone explain to me why Hezbollah would intentionally target Druze children whose parents have obviously resisted Israel's offer of citizenship? Remember that these Druze are remnants of a once-thriving Druze community of well over a hundred thousand people prior to Israel's occupation, when they were forced to flee their homeland and made into refugees just like Palestinians. It would seem odd then for animosity towards these Druze by Hezbollah or Hamas, but perhaps someone knows better?
Until someone can provide that answer or some reasonable explanation for why Hezbollah would carry out a deliberate attack on these Syrian Druze children, I am going with the theory that it was a tragic accident or misfire.
The EU has called for a tri-partite investigation. I hope it is allowed to proceed.
Beastly Boy
(12,994 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 30, 2024, 03:09 PM - Edit history (1)
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/28/middleeast/druze-golan-heights-israel-occupied-attack-explainer-intl/index.html#:~:text=More%20than%2020%2C000%20Druze%20live%20in%20the%20Golan,residency%20cards%20but%20are%20not%20considered%20Israeli%20citizens.
Bolding mine.
They were Israeli permanent residents, not citizens. Duh. They didn't resist anything, they were given a choice. And while the majority considers themselves Syrian, what does Syria consider them? That's what determines citizenship, no? I have yet to see any statement from the Syrian government to confirm their citizenship.
As far as Hezbollah having no reason on earth to bomb children, when was the last time they needed a reason to bomb any civilians? But if you are still looking for reasons why they chose this particular Druze town, consider this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze_in_Israel#:~:text=%20Alongside%20the%20Jewish%20majority%20and%20the%20Circassian,top%20positions%20in%20Israeli%20politics%20and%20public%20service.
This particular town is not resisting ties with Israel anymore, nor are the Golan's Druze. On the contrary, applications for Israeli citizenship are skyrocketing among them. Hezbollah chose carefully whom to punish for this, as a cruel example to other Druze towns.
The Hezbollah message was as loud and clear as it was brutal and bloody.
But you already know this, don't you? I addressed all of the above speculations yesterday in response to a nearly identical post of yours.
And enough with your fantasies of thousands of Druze fleeing the Israeli "occupation":
(preliminary data) – more than a tenfold increase since the founding of the State of
Israel (14,500 in 1949).
and