Kids abducted in Fla. custody case taken to Cuba

[maddezmom]

Source: USAToday

A Florida couple suspected of kidnapping their two sons from the woman's parents in Tampa have fled by boat to Cuba, according to Florida authorities.

The boys had been living since last year with their maternal grandparents, who were granted permanent custody a week ago.

The Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office alleges that Joshua Michael Hakken entered his mother-in-law's house north of Tampa on Wednesday, tied her up and fled with his sons, 4-year-old Cole and 2-year-old Chase.

The Hillsborough Sheriff's office has issued an arrest warrant for Hakken on charges of kidnapping and several other counts.


Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/09/cuba-kidnapping-florida-joseph-hakken-custoday-case-tampa/2066391/

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A man on a boat at a Havana marina told CNN's Patrick Oppmann he is Josh Hakken, the U.S. man accused of kidnapping his sons and sailing them to Cuba.

He declined to answer questions, and Cuban security asked a CNN reporter to leave.

The man, who fit Hakken's description, was with a woman who fits the description of his wife. Both were aboard a blue sailboat named "Salty." The CNN reporter also saw one child on the boat.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/us/florida-children-abducted/

[Tommy_Carcetti]

1. It's Bizarro Elian. nt

[maddezmom]

2. I was thinking the same.

This is going to be a complete mess.

[KamaAina]

6. But where are the dolphins?

[msanthrope]

3. If Cuba wants every weapons and drug runner we have, they are welcome to them.

The Cuban government won't give a crap about the kids, or their welfare.

[slackmaster]

4. Scarface II - The USA Strikes Back

[msanthrope]

5. Hell--just call yourself 'political' and light out for Cuba!!! Joanne Chesimard the cop killer

has been there for decades.

[idwiyo]

7. Pot meet Kettle. LUIS POSADA CARRILES, just for starters. Enough said.

LUIS POSADA CARRILES
THE DECLASSIFIED RECORD
CIA and FBI Documents Detail Career in International Terrorism; Connection to U.S.

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 153

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/

[msanthrope]

9. We tried to try and expel Mr. Carriles. He was acquitted.

He was on trial in Texas on charges of lying to immigration officials about how he entered the US and about his alleged involvement in bomb attacks in Havana in 1997 in which an Italian tourist was killed.

But a jury found him not guilty, ending a four-year effort by US federal prosecutors to convict him.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-13026870

I agree that this man is a terrorist. But there wasn't evidence to convict him.

Ms. Chesimard is a convicted murderer.

[Sunlei]

14. He's 83? 'worked for the CIA" and looks like he wanted to get to Cuba.

What a book his life would make.

[happyslug]

16. What do you mean by "Cop Killer".

The Medical Evidence in the case clearly showed that she did NOT shoot anyone, she could not have after she herself was hit by bullets.

A key element of Shakur's defense was medical testimony meant to demonstrate that she was shot with her hands up and that she would have been subsequently unable to fire a weapon. A neurologist testified that the median nerve in Shakur's right arm was severed by the second bullet, making her unable to pull a trigger.[101] Neurosurgeon Dr. Arthur Turner Davidson, Associate Professor of Surgery at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, testified that the wounds in her upper arms, armpit and chest, and severed median nerve that instantly paralyzed her right arm, would only have been caused if both arms were raised, and that to sustain such injuries while crouching and firing a weapon (as described in Trooper Harper's testimony) "would be anatomically impossible." Davidson based his testimony on an August 4, 1976 examination of Shakur and on X-rays taken immediately after the shootout at Middlesex General Hospital.[151] Prosecutor Barone questioned whether Davidson was qualified to make such a judgment 39 months after the injury; Barone proceeded to suggest (while a female Sheriff's attendant acted out his suggestion) that Shakur was struck in the right arm and collar bone and "then spun around by the impact of the bullet so an immediate second shot entered the fleshy part of her upper left arm" to which Davidson replied "Impossible.

Shakur's broken clavicle was a key element of her defense, and the implications of her injury for the differing accounts of the shootout were points of contention. Dr. David Spain, a pathologist from Brookdale Community College, testified that her bullet scars as well as X-rays supported her claim that her arms were raised, and that there was "no conceivable way" the first bullet could have hit Shakur's clavicle if her arm was down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assata_Shakur

On the other hand, to be convicted of Murder you do NOT have to be person who pulled the trigger, all that the Prosecutor needed to show that she was an accomplice. This is what the Jury apparently hung their hat on when they convicted her, not that she pulled the trigger, but she was involved.

The issue is how was she involved with the only murder in the shoot out, the Killing of Officer Forester, was killed by his own weapon? AND, while testimony existed that one of the males with her did the shooting of that officer, how is that being an accomplice?

Officer Harper (who was at the rear of the car when the fire fight started) at first claimed she shot at him, but later retracted that statement and said she had not, but he did shoot at her at the start of the gun fight. None of the weapons had her finger prints on them, she had no gunpowder residue on her fingers, but she have magazines for the pistols (and none of them, being convicted felons, should have had any pistols).

Thus an argument can be made she was NOT an accomplice to a criminal activity, just a person traveling with friends. As a friend she had the right to carry things for them, including the magazines. This is her defense, no one at the trial accused her of doing anything then being shot and in the car when the shooting began.

On the other hand, she was up on charges and on bail and thus knew she was NOT to have a firearm. She also knew the people she was with were known to carry pistols. She had magazines for the automatics they had. This appears to be enough to find her an "Accomplice" to the shooting and thus guilty of murder.

Thus my point, no one has EVER accused her of shooting the Police officer who died, the Police officer who did say she shot at him, later retracted that story saying no she did not. The Police Officer was killed by his own Revolver, which everyone admits she did NOT touch. Thus if you have a narrow definition of "Cop Killer" one restricted to someone who did something ACTIVE that lead to an Police officer being killed, she is NOT a "Cop Killer". On the other hand, if your definition includes ANYONE involved with the death of a Police Officer, no matter how remote, then she is.

Thus she is a "Cop Killer" only if you have a broad definition of who is a "Cop Killer", a definition that includes someone who calls the police for help, and the responding police officer dies when he loses control of his car and rolls down a hillside. Not quite as remote as the facts involving Joanne Chesimard as a "Cop Killer" but closer then someone who actually participated in a fire fight with the Police.

[msanthrope]

18. The jury heard the medical evidence, and found her to be a cop killer. She was convicted of murder.

Most people who are shot while attempting to rob someone learn their lesson. Not this psychopath.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30A1FF93A5F127A93C5A9178FD85F458785F9

[happyslug]

19. Under New Jersey law all the jury had to found was she was involved somewhat in the shooting.

I am sorry, but if you use words, you have to use them as they are in common usage and she does NOT meet the definition of being a Psychopath. She was a black militant who was willing to use firearms but that does NOT make her a "Psychopath".

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1] is a popular term often used to refer to a person characterized by reduced fear, a lack of empathy, coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

The fact she joined, first the Black Panthers, and later the even more radical Black Liberation Army (BLA), shows she did NOT suffer from any anti-social behavior. Her complaints that her school did not teach enough black history shows empathy. None of her alleged crimes shows her to be impulsive and she did not live a parasitic lifestyle. The other aspects of Psychopathy we do NOT have enough evidence to determine, but she does NOT look like she meets the definition of being a Psychopath. She clearly has some issues with authority figures and with white police officers, but those, by themselves, do NOT make her a Psychopath.

As to the Jury's decision, no evidence was presented that she fired anything. All the evidence presented to the Jury showed she could NOT have open fire on anyone. Even the prosecution admits that to be the case.

On the other hand, if she was an accomplice to the actual killing by the two men involved she was as guilty as if she fired the shots. That appears to be the finding of the jury. She was involved in the Shoot out, an officer died, but NOT by her hands. She had fired no weapon, but firing a weapon need NOT be shown to convict her of murder, all that was needed to be shown that she was involved in the shoot out and she had the pistol magazines in her purse.

Thus she was convicted of Murder, but the jury did NOT have to find that she killed anyone to find her guilty of murder. Thus the debate if she was a "Cop Killer" or not. If you define a "Cop Killer" as someone ACTIVE in the killing of an police officer, then she is NOT a "Cop Killer", there is NO evidence she made any active moves in the gun fight.

If you define a "Cop Killer" as anyone involved, not matter how remote or minor, with the death of a Police Officer, then she is a "Cop Killer".

Showing the difference in definition is all I was trying to make, not to determine if she was a "Cop Killer" or not.

[msanthrope]

20. Shooting people, kidnapping, and robbing banks is anti-social behavior.

The prosecution alleged that she shot a cop with his own weapon, in the back of his head. The jury agreed. Cop killer.

[happyslug]

21. But the only witness that said so, retracted that story at the trial.

Jury's decisions must be backed by facts not just allegations. The Prosecutor only evidence was the surviving police officer testimony that she had opened fire first, once that witness said OTHERWISE in the trial there was NO remaining evidence that supported that she participated in the fire fight.

We both agreed that she was convicted, we both agree that under New Jersey law the jury's decision was supported by facts (the pistol Magazines were enough to support the conviction that she was an accomplice). My only point is there was NO evidence presented at trial that showed that she participated in the fire fight. The Evidence that supported that position was withdrawn under cross examination by the officer who first made that statement (A witness's testimony is evidence).

Furthermore at trial, it was established that due to her injuries she was incapable of firing almost from the start of the fire fight. The prosecutor contested that, but the medical witnesses were all in agreement, it was impossible given her injuries.

As to the killing of Police Officer Forester, that was clearly done by the one male shooter, whose own weapon (or weapons, two James automatics were found near the body). Officer Forester died from the two shots to his head, that everyone testified, including the other police officer, was fired by one of the males in the car, once the male exited the car and walked over to Forester.

Sorry, I try to stay with the facts, I do NOT make them up. It was impossible for her to have fired the fatal shots into Forester (the only officer who died in the shoot out). The ONLY testimony given, later retracted by the same officer at trial, was the fire fight started when she had fired and wounded Forester in the shoulder. The fatal shots was from Forester's own revolver and by then she was incapable of firing any weapon.

The Prosecution can allege a lot of things, but the Jury's decision must be based on the facts presented to it, and the only facts that supported her conviction of murder was her possession of the pistol magazines in her purse.

[msanthrope]

22. You are conflating evidence presented to the jury with evidence they believed. And I think

you conveniently forget the blood evidence, which Chesimard's defenders never seem to mention. For good reason. Take a look at what the jury considered while deliberating....the blood evidence.

Two things convicted Chesimard....the blood evidence, and her own testimony. Arrogant psycopaths tend to hang themselves.

[dipsydoodle]

12. If you want to check out mugs

search the Mariel boatlift.

[SunSeeker]

8. Those kids are in horrible danger. The parents are dangerous nutbags.

The kids were taken from them when police, responding to a disturbance call at a Louisiana motel, found the armed, drugged up parents ranting incoherently about armageddon and how they need to go on a journey. The authorities describe them euphemistically as "anti-government." The poor kids were there in the motel room watching all this.

Then later, the dad came to the foster home to try to take the boys back at gun point. The police were called and he left without the boys. I guess it was just a matter of time before they tried it again. So sad for these two little boys.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/family-missing-florida-boys-cuba-18910105

[Vogon_Glory]

10. Good Luck To The Cuban Authorities Dealing With These Two

Good luck to the Cuban authorities who get to deal with the adults. For what it's worth, I doubt that the Cuban authorities will let the guy run around with any firearms he brought over from the USA. If the Cuban authorities have to get tough, I hope they can do it safely without endangering the children.

I admit that I am not one of these forums' biggest pro-Castro cheerleaders. Yet I do admit that there would be a certain amount of irony of those kids spend enough time on the island to become Spanish-speaking, soccer-playing social democrats instead of taking after their loopy pappy's politics.

[Mika]

11. Kids are returned back and forth regularly between the US and Cuba.

Elian became a big case because the RW Miami exile groups were using Elian as a poster boy propaganda ploy against Castro who was rumored to be speaking @ the WTO in Seattle a few days after Elian was rescued by Sam Ciancio.
Otherwise, there are routine exchanges of children improperly taken out of country - according to the Hague Convention on Child Custody that states that jurisdiction for custody cases resides in the home country of legal custodians.
The primary case FOR returning Elian, and every other improperly taken child, was this very Convention, of which the US and Cuba are both signatories.

[dipsydoodle]

13. If the kids do stay there

at least they'll get a good education

[defacto7]

15. Cuba says they are turning over the kids and parents to US authorities

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/cuba-turn-over-florida-couple-and-children

[Vogon_Glory]

17. I Hope The Adult Haakens Get Sent Back

Last edited Tue Apr 9, 2013, 11:00 PM - Edit history (1)

I hope the adult Haakens get sent back to the US on one of Aerogaviota's minimalist-windowed Antonovs and that they don't get aisle seats.