Venezuela rejects Obama comments on arrested US film-maker Tim Tracy

[alp227]

Source: The Guardian

Venezuela's government has rejected comments by Barack Obama about the country's political crisis and the arrest of a US film-maker, accusing Washington of being behind violence that has followed the recent presidential election.

During his visit to Latin America, Obama said the allegations against documentary film-maker Tim Tracy, 35, were "ridiculous."

But Venezuela's interior minister, Miguel Rodríguez Torres, has insisted that intelligence agents tracking Tracy since late 2012 had uncovered ample evidence he was plotting with militant anti-government factions to destabilise the country.

"When you want to do intelligence work in another country, all those big powers who do this type of spying, they often use the facade of a film-maker, documentary-maker, photographer or journalist," Rodríguez Torres told state TV. "Because with that facade, they can go anywhere, penetrate any place."

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/05/venezuela-reject-obama-tim-tracy

[timdog44]

1. Sad to see

the same policies of the USA continuing under Obama as it was under Reagan and Bush 1 and 2. A democratically elected official is in charge in Venezuela. Best to try to deal with them than against them. Same as in Palestine and Iran and all the other democratically elected countries.

[iandhr]

2. Wow

Last edited Sun May 5, 2013, 09:52 PM - Edit history (1)

That has got to be the most moronic thing I have ever heard on this site.

[timdog44]

3. We shall see.

Nice to know I am a moron.

[Mosby]

75. the last elections in "Palestine" were in 2006

Abbas has cancelled all the elections since then, he is basically a dictator now.

The last election in Iran was rigged:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_presidential_election,_2009

[Archae]

78. Brace yourself...

You see, you posted actual *gasp* FACTS about the corrupt and fascistic governments of the Palestinians and Iran.

Iran's "elections" are a farce.
The power is held by the Mullahs, who rule that country on their whims.

The Palestinian government is still as corrupt as it was when Arafat ran it, with high-level officials and their cronies stealing billions in aid from other countries, and critics are labeled "collaborators" and lynched.

[timdog44]

81. I think the last

elections in Palestine were held in 2012.

As far as the Iran elections, anyone can say they were rigged. Anything official out of the USA is likely to be anti Iranian

[Mosby]

82. those were local elections, and only took place in the west bank.

[Ash_F]

84. Wishful thinking(on Iran)

The country is unfortunately still very conservative despite the increased vigor of liberal reformists. The best way to aid them is to stay grounded in reality and avoid charged comments like that, which just inflame reactionaries.

Kind of how Maduro should avoid comments like in the OP if he wants the support average Americans.

[dballance]

4. "That has got to be the most moronic thing I have ever herd on this site." Speaking of herds...

I guess you're with the herd of sheep that likes to ignore the fact the US has long meddled in the affairs of Latin America. Remember that little Contra thing during the Reagan years? Or the coup that temporarily displaced Chavez during the Bush years. You know, when the US set by and watched a democratically elected leader be overthrown and did nothing, said nothing. I have a strong suspicion the US through the CIA was involved. The CIA often uses "journalists" and probably documentary makers, like the one named in the OP, as operatives. The interior minister is not wrong or mistaken when he says: "When you want to do intelligence work in another country, all those big powers who do this type of spying, they often use the facade of a film-maker, documentary-maker, photographer or journalist," Rodríguez Torres told state TV. "Because with that facade, they can go anywhere, penetrate any place."

Don't underestimate the power of the big oil that wants its hands back on Venezuela's oil and their influence with the US government. And no, I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat or looking out the window for the black helicopters. Whatever you've heard elsewhere, the minister and the supposition the US is interfering in Venezuela is not crazy, conspiracy theorist talk.

[timdog44]

5. Thank you

for my defense. I was being such a moron, I could not think of anything to say. I fully agree with what you say.

[dballance]

30. Anytime. Looks like iandhr is getting an ear full.

All of them, so far, supporting your post.

[treestar]

56. So we interfered in Guatemala in the 1950s

And in Chile, I think it was, and in Nicaragua.

That does not mean it is happening today.

We buy oil from Venezuela - we are a big customer of theirs, so why do they work so hard to alienate us?

We have not interfered in Venezuela other than comments!

[Warren Stupidity]

61. Other than the failed coup attempt in 2002?

Other than that? We've been interfering pretty much non-stop in Latin America for well over 100 years. Get your head out of the sand.

[treestar]

101. Is that a stretch of some kind?

Is there real evidence the US is to blame? Or just the fevered imaginings of Hugo? The man was not entirely well.

[Warren Stupidity]

102. you are being obtuse.

yes of course, the CIA submitted the standard "this is our coup" form, in triplicate, signed and sealed as required.

[Ash_F]

71. No, there is strong support for the old VE royalty from our own power circles.

Our government needs to start acting on the behalf of real people, both at home and abroad.

[timdog44]

65. I just got up this morning

and went back and reread all the posts. And of all, I think you put the whole thing into perspective. Their were many good posts, and some ignorant pot stirring going on. And interestingly, the OP never said another word. Good, hard evidence of a lot of things said here on this subject is not always easy to come up with and lots of times not any more informative than people just giving opinions. But the long standing meddling in Latin American affairs by the powers that be in the US government (not necessarily the presidency) is well known as you said. It saddens me that tens and maybe hundreds of people in Latin America were slaughtered either directly or indirectly by our government. Products and not people. That is what has irked the vulture capitalists about Chavez and a number of other leaders is that they put their people ahead of products. Signed, the moron.

[John2]

6. I don't think his opinion is moronic.

He has a right to an opinion and I tend to agree with it. I want to know what evidence does the President have this man stole an Election, other than the same old rightwing propaganda about Leftist Governments, that don't agree with Vulture Capitalists in this country? There is dissent in every country accusing the other side of rigging Elections. This country is a very good example of it. This country is not a very good model of acceptance with results. There are groups in this country, that called for International groups to monitor the last Election. In fact, I supported it. Now how many people was prevented from voting in the last Election?

[timdog44]

7. And if we are to talk about stolen elections

we only have to look at how the SCOTUS stole and election right here in the good ole USA.

Vulture capitalists all over the world whine and cry when a democratic election does not go their way.

And thanks for not thinking me a moron.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

32. And lets not forget Haiti.... n/t

[bitchkitty]

10. I know, right? Sooooooooooooooooooo moronic.

I mean, we would NEVER interfere in another country's business. We would NEVER spy on socialist countries or support right wing fascist dictators. The nerve of some people! Our hands are spotlessly clean. Those commies better want our brand of freedom or we'll kill the shit out them, right? They think they can elect their own leaders. We'll just have to set them straight. They're so lucky they have people like you to tell them who their leaders should be. I mean, it's not like we should let them elect their own.

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

[heaven05]

22. yep

no problem with your analysis. Have we always been an imperialist power? Yeah I guess since america discovered how delicious bananas are.

[Veilex]

27. Instead of insulting the poster, which is never endearing, might I suggest

using the effort applied to documenting your dissatisfaction, instead, to simply challenging the poster to substantiate his position?

Just a thought.

[Doctor_J]

14. Yep, our government interferes with their elections, terrorizes their leaders, helps

militants plot the overthrow of their government, and wants to take their oil, and then gets pissed when THEY get pissed.

What a strange world view the Repukes and DINOs have.

[Sand Wind]

16. To say that Iran(leadership) Is a democratically elected country leave me perplexe,

If nothing else.

[John2]

28. I don't think anybody

really knows much less Americans. You are talking about a country with a history accusing the United States overthrowing a democratically elected official. Unless you want to say the Shah of Iran didn't come to power that way? The history of the Iranian Revolution is very well documented. People can decide their Government through revolutions or peacefully. The people that won, chose their Government without outside interference. They chose to include religion in their Constitution. They chose their Mullahs as the highest authority in the country. As far as their President and other local politicians, they are Democratically elected. Their President does not serve a life term. So if you are claiming their religious leaders are corrupt, the people put them there. If the Iranian System could be compared to anything, it would be similar to the ancient system of Israel, when Saul and David were anointed by the high priest. The only difference is the President is elected by the people with the Supreme leader as the judge. Their system has to be respected because that is the system the people chose.

[Sand Wind]

31. I'm not an american. I'm a muslim living in a North American country.

I know the Iran history. I have friends who come from Iran. We dont have the time or the space here to got a real argument about the "democratie" in Iran.
I just want to say that Thing's are not as simple as your presentation of It. Some peoples hijacked the iranian revolution. And that I really really really dont think that Iran Is a democratie.

If you want to have a debate on this subject, I can refere you to some specialised's blog on the question. If you want to have it with me, propose me thread on the subject.

[Fuddnik]

37. They used to have one, until Kermit Roosevelt and the CIA overthrew Mossadegh.

And replaced it with a Nazi sympathizing tyrant for the oil.

[Sand Wind]

38. They used to have one, and then the CIA, and the MI5 and the DGSE...

The problem with americains Is they think they where the only ones to be implicate in this situation (because of the hostage), but in fact, the british where the most powerfull in Iran, and after the french DGSE make his part in the tragedy that Is that country. This country Is such a mess...you just cant figure how its a historical misunderstanding.

USA used to think they are at the center of everything, but in the case of Iran, It Is very a confrontation between UK and USA that where the problem. Its not easy for you to see It because you are so used to see the UK of today (LIKE a full allie of USA).

So the problem Is that in your interpretation, you are making so much credit of your (bad) influences, (every people want to see themselves as the center of universe), especially since the hostage crises (because It take a huge place in your own political process), that you Forget the other international power, and forget the fact that Iran give itself Is own tiranny, his own dictatorship because of his own dynamic.

[Veilex]

24. You've made a number of unsubstantiated implications... do you have any

Additional information to support said implications?

[timdog44]

46. Do you have

any additional pot stirring to do, or are you finished.

[Veilex]

77. No pot stirring here good sir...

At the time of my reply, there was little in the way of supporting information for your comment. Obviously since others have chimed in, there is quite a bit. For my part, I am making a meager attempt at bringing conversation back to the substantiated and civilized. In spite of the wealth of knowledge held by individuals here on DU, Trolls, conservatives and those who simply don't know all the details (Because you can never know everything), often are looking for more information (Except maybe the trolls).
So long story short... you mistake my intentions, which is easily done when you only have text to go by.

[timdog44]

79. Thanks for your

polite reply. Sometimes in discussions there are no verifiable facts to be had. And then, any citations are only created by people like you and me.

I can only say that stories about how bad it is in Venezuela are more than likely biased as are stories that glorify Venezuela. My entire reason for talking in the first place is the well known butt inskyness of the USA in other people's governments, usually at the instigation of big corporations for $$$$$. It is almost usually irrelevant as to who is in place as the leader of the USA at the time.

So forgive my lapse of civility.

[Veilex]

88. Forgiven, forgotten, may the good conversation continue! :)

[Archae]

26. I hope you are being sarcastic.

Because the Palestinians and Iran are theocratic fascists.

[timdog44]

40. Although

the history of Palestine is complicated by occupation or more, being held hostage, had a democratically held election that was refuted by those who did not like the outcome.

As far as I know about Iran, it is a theocratic republic, and they do hold elections. Just because the US and other countries don't like the outcome does not mean they don't hold elections like we do in the US.

I don't call the US a fascist republic just because I do not like the outcome of our elections, or I should say previous elections. Or elections of heads of certain states.

[Archae]

42. A theocracy is fascism.

[timdog44]

44. I think

you may have your definitions a little wrong.

A theocracy is a government of a god for a god.

A fascistic government is a government ruled by a dictator.

There is a big difference. People can vote to have a theocracy. People generally do not vote to have a fascistic government. I do not think people vote is an fascistic type of government.

[ReRe]

67. Please....

...just tell me where you learned that Theocracy is Fascism. Pretty please? Thanks.

[ReRe]

59. I hope you are OK.....

..... seriously. I don't think the Palestinians are Theocratic. Iran, yes definitely Theocratic. But fascist as a description for either of them does not fit.
Have you been watching too much FOX? Define "Fascism" for us. Thanks.

[Judi Lynn]

60. Right-wingers not only have rewritten the Bible & history, they've rewritten the dictionary! n/t

[ReRe]

68. Seriously...

... it's Fox-talk. I don't watch FOX, but I have seen clips on DU or on MSNBC where they use a term... like "Muslim Fascists" ...oh, here it is "Islamo-Fascists."
What the hay is an "Islamo-Fascist"?

[hrmjustin]

29. They stole the election in IRAN.

[msanthrope]

8. Watching the Hugo cultists defend jailing a filmaker is always fun. nt

[iandhr]

9. Ding Ding Ding

[bitchkitty]

11. FYI

When you want to do intelligence work in another country, all those big powers who do this type of spying, they often use the facade of a film-maker, documentary-maker, photographer or journalist," Rodríguez Torres told state TV. "Because with that facade, they can go anywhere, penetrate any place.

This is a fact, and I know this for a fact.

[msanthrope]

13. And the evidence that this filmaker is a covert operative? nt

[harmonicon]

15. Well, the guy was arrested.

Do you not trust the Venezuelan government to have a civilized judicial system because they're leftist, because they're hispanic, or for some other reason?

I imagine the person will get a trial, and not be locked up indefinitely and tortured in a specially built foreign prison.

[joshcryer]

19. There are tens of thousands in Venezuelan jails without trial.

Are you serious? This reads like a damn caricature. Venezuelans prison system is one of the worst, most violent, scary places on the planet. They don't even have wardens, they're run by prans who are basically thugs with guns who force prisoners to pay to have a good life there.

If this guy goes through the same process as regular Venezuelans he'd be in jail for years without trial and then found guilty and released. I think because his family is not asking for the government to intervene they're going to go a more low key route, using fixers to get the job done, and paying bribes (his family has a rich background). They'll probably do a rush trial, find him guilty, and have him deported.

Sadly his film will probably be destroyed.

[timdog44]

45. I would think

that, although you are speaking venezuelan prisons, the statistics of US prisons does not stack up well.

[joshcryer]

51. Yes, the US prison culture is abhorrent.

But so too are human rights violating prisons in Venezuela where prans run the show (literally, the wardens patrol the outside of the prisons and "prans," basically mafia style lords, run the prison from the inside, armed to the teeth with guns). The unfortunate part is that prisoners who don't have outside money influence, such as those without family, foreigners, or poorer people, are living in complete destitution. They aren't even fed by the prans, they have to eat scraps. It's abhorrent. Inconceivable.

[Bacchus4.0]

69. prisoners in the US have been convicted though. Most prisoners in Ven

are still awaiting trial

[Warren Stupidity]

62. Documentation for "tens of thousands in jail without trials"?

Human rights watch, which is no friend of Venezuela, completely overlooked this. Very odd.

[Judi Lynn]

63. Totally bewildering, isn't it? Apparently some think whatever they say will stick here.

That one really takes the prize. El Whopper Grande.

Fred Phelps sent a message for this occasion, to that poster:

[center]

He forgot to scratch out "###s" and write in "lies" in the middle sign.[/center]

[joshcryer]

86. Why don't you retract that since the facts were provided?

Oh, right, facts are irrelevant.

[Bacchus4.0]

70. 70% of Ven prisoners awaiting trial

Most men here do nothing but wait out a sentence that has yet to arrive. Human rights activists say almost 70% of inmates are being held in pre-trial detention. Some do odd jobs, such as fixing broken air-conditioners or painting the walls of the main prison. Their wages – paid by the pran – finance their drug habits.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/05/prisoners-make-mockery-venezuela-jails

[Warren Stupidity]

72. Still waiting for documentation that tens of thousands are being held without trial.

What you provided was an article that was devoid of actual data and was mostly "Venezuelan prison system is corrupt". That last part is true, and is true for most of latin america and much of the developing world. The poster I responded to, although he likely will attempt to weasel out of it, was implying that political prisoners were being held without trial, as we do for example in gitmo, by the thousands, or tens of thousands, as he put it. Instead, Venezuela has huge crime problem and a huge criminal justice corruption problem, no shit. The post I was responding to was just the usual fabrications from the right.

[Bacchus4.0]

73. 47,000 prisoners in Ven, 70% in pretrial detention would be approximately 33,000

which is indeed tens of thousands

Venezuela currently has 33 prisons built to hold about 12,000 inmates, but officials have said the prisons' population is about 47,000.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/27/venezuela-prison-riot-mor_n_2561278.html

[joshcryer]

87. They love to pat themselves on the back for their own ignorance.

It's sad, really.

Thanks for the link.

[bitchkitty]

76. Ah, but Warren!

You forget who you're talking to. He can provide the proof - just give him a minute to pull it out of his ass.

[joshcryer]

85. Bacchus4.0 provided the link.

Not that you're concerned about the tens of thousands of Venezuelan prisoners.

Indeed, rather than say "hey, that sucks" it's all deflection and hot air.

I can always back up what I say.

[bitchkitty]

90. Why aren't you all up in arms about this?

http://americasquarterly.org/aborn-prisons

Or any other country with a fucked up prison system? If a kitten gets run over in California, you'd find some way to blame it on the socialist government of Venezuela. Always Venezuela, never anywhere else.

I wonder why?

Actually, I don't wonder why. I know why.

[joshcryer]

92. 21.5 is smaller than 66.2?

I am of course critical of the USs drug war. This thread isn't about the US, though, so deflection is necessary.

Why aren't you all up in arms about this? Why do you defend it or dismiss it?

[bitchkitty]

93. A question to answer a question.

Common tactic, but just shows that you need an imagination. Talking points not at the ready?

Why aren't you concerned with other countries with far worse human rights records? Again, no reply expected. I know why.

[joshcryer]

95. So, no criticism of Venezuela's deplorable prisons?

None?

[bitchkitty]

97. I think they suck.

And I think they've been that way for a while, before Chavez. Venezuela didn't suddenly become crime-ridden because of Chavez. What he accomplished during his terms goes a long way toward making things right for the citizens of his country. HIS country, BTW, not yours and not your bosses'.

[joshcryer]

104. They've gotten far worse since Chavez.

That's a fact.

BTW, I don't know why you are being so nasty, accusing them of being my bosses.

Unlike Eva Golingair I don't have a hundred thousand dollar apartment in NYC.

[Bacchus4.0]

98. thanks, your link verifies what I've posted

the difference with the US and Venezuela and some others is that those held eventually actually get a trial and they are NOT held in the general prison population.

[bitchkitty]

100. Wrong link, but now I can't find the one I meant to post.

But here's one on Colombia:

http://afgj.org/a-visit-inside-colombias-most-notorious-prison-la-tramacua

And the Saudis? What is it like being in a Saudi jail? Why aren't you worried about those prisoners?

You're not. And you're not worried about Venezuelan prisoners either. You're worried about the scum-sucking, parasitic, ugly hearts of the 1%. That disgusts me.

[reorg]

89. Pre-trial detention rate US: 157; Venezuela: 99

Pre-trial detention rate
(per 100,000 general population)

US: 157
Venezuela: 99


Pre-trial detainee population

US: 487,369
Venezuela: 28,771

http://americasquarterly.org/aborn-prisons

[joshcryer]

91. 66.2% vs 21.5% Venezuela is #4 with pretrial detention.

Looks like Venezuela's occupancy rate is 270%: http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_country.php?country=224

The detention rate per population, while not telling the full story, is actually instructive, given that Venezuela is in the top 5 most murderous places on the planet. 9 out of 10 go unsolved. (Of course, Venezuela Analysis attributes part of that to police killings, in a really odious way, imo.)

If there was no unjust drug war the pretrial detention rate per population in the US would be much much lower.

[reorg]

94. And the price of tea in China?

Far more people, in real numbers as welll as a percentage of the general population are held in pre-trial detention in the US than in Venezuela. 156 (US) versus 99 (Venezuela).

You don't get to weasel your way out of this by changing the topic.

You were denouncing the high number of detentions "without trial" (by which loaded term you meant to say "pre-trial detention&quot in Venezuela. Well, they have a long way to go before they arrive at US numbers.


66% pre-trial detention versus 34% convicted felons in prison indicates that it usually takes a long time to get a trial. That's very unfortunate, but perhaps better than the obscene practice in the US to prefer "plea deals" to actual trials in the vast majority of cases. It also means that, once convicted, prisoners don't have to serve sentences of such insane length as in the US.

[joshcryer]

96. If Venezuela's crime solve rated was higher they'd be similar to the US.

If not higher. The key here is that Venezuelan prisons are ran by prans and many prisoners live in human rights violating conditions.

You are the one changing the topic and you prefer per capita as opposed to prison population to prove your spin. I have already said that US prisons' drug war is deporable, can I get at least your own acceptance that Venezuelas 66% detention rate is deplorable? I fucking doubt it.

If you read your own fucking article 20% of US detentions lead to dismissals. 66% dentitions are absurd.

[reorg]

106. and if my aunt had wheels ...

Last edited Wed May 8, 2013, 12:16 AM - Edit history (1)

In response to the question in post #15 asking

"Do you not trust the Venezuelan government to have a civilized judicial system because they're leftist, because they're hispanic, or for some other reason? I imagine the person will get a trial, ..."

The post also mentioned indefinite detainment in a special foreign prison which we all know is practiced elsewhere, not in Venezuela. Perhaps it was this remark that triggered your furious attempt at misdirection:

You reacted with outrage lamenting the "tens of thousands" in Venezuela imprisoned WITHOUT A TRIAL ...

Well, in the US there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS imprisoned "without trial".

Still, they'll have to get released, get a trial, or - not in Venezuela, but in the US - will be convicted WITHOUT A TRIAL. In the US, the pre-trial detention period may be on average shorter than in Venezuela due to the fact that the legal system in the US has developed techniques to achieve this (and to save financial and legal resources). Known as "plea bargaining", these techniques, however, undermine the constitutional right of an accused to a fair trial.

Yes, there is a civilized judicial system in Venezuela, based on the European civil law tradition. Yes, they have to deal with a lot of problems, due to their history, and these problems are typical for the entire region. General lack of funds, lack of qualified personnel such as prosecutors, unreliable police forces and so forth. Does this mean they should stop arresting people suspected of criminal wrong-doing? Of course not.

The countries with the highest estimated pretrial detention populations on an average day are, not surprisingly, those with the largest general populations. The United States heads the list with 487,000, followed by Brazil (190,000), Mexico (98,000), Peru, Colombia and Argentina (31,000–34,000), and Venezuela (29,000).

Another way to measure where pretrial detention is highest is to estimate the rate of pretrial detention as a proportion of the general population. This provides a standardized comparison across countries of varying sizes, and is not altered by changes in the sentenced prison population. Here, several countries far outpace the global average of 40 pretrial detainees per 100,000 in the general population. Panama (223) heads the list, followed by Uruguay (180), the U.S. (157), the Dominican Republic (136), El Salvador (113), and Peru (111). ... (Venezuela, as listed in the table at the bottom of the page: 99)


The highest proportion of pretrial detainees among the total prison population is in Bolivia (83.6 percent), followed by Paraguay (71.2 percent), Haiti (67.7 percent), Venezuela (66.2 percent), Dominican Republic (64.7 percent), Uruguay (64.6 percent), Panama (60.8 percent), Peru (58.6 percent), Guatemala (54.4 percent), Argentina (52.6 percent), and Honduras (50.1 percent).

http://americasquarterly.org/aborn-prisons

[joshcryer]

109. In the US they are in jails, not prisons.

Simple.

In the US there are wardens and security guards.

In Venezuela there are armed prans and a two tier class structure (those who have money and those who don't, those who can work and those who can't).

In the US everyone is fed and treated the same.

In Venezuela there are entire sections of the prisons sequestered from each other where people live in squalor, stuck taking addictive drugs, and in other sections prostitutes, beer, and other enjoyments can be had.

Anyway, it's good that you quote the last paragraph. I chose the "other way" of viewing it (percentage of total prison population) because it simply is a better metric when you look at the situation holistically.

[reorg]

110. yes, the US is world master

in jailing its population.

[joshcryer]

105. Your last paragraph is precious.

You make the picture so rosy that it's really absurd. That being detained without trial for a long time suggests that you are guaranteed a conviction and once you're convicted you don't have to serve long sentences! You really said that! The reason there are so few felons convicted is they're either killed by police on the streets (never mind that 20% of all crime was said to be committed by police) or they get away with it (9 out of 10 times they do). It has nothing to do with the prison system.

http://www.youtube.com/user/luidigalfo

The US's prison issue is deplorable, but you paint such an absurd picture of Venezuela's prison system that it's a joke. My original post wasn't just about pre-trial detention, it was about a whole host of other issues which as is typical with chavistas were deflected. Time after time after time the entirety of an argument is ignored to nitpick on one little thing (using spin to prove some weak point).

That said, as Bacchus4.0 pointed out, the detainees in the US do not live in general population. It's a completely different sequester. You can compare detention rate to prison population or general population. As far as general population Venezuela is far far higher and the US is actually within the lowest in the hemisphere. I argue that this is a better comparison because in the US crime is actually attempted to be solved, unlike Venezuela. You choose to compare the detention rate to general population because it's the better number for your view, but I personally don't think you believe what you're saying.

[reorg]

107. you don't seem to understand it

perhaps you should try and read it again.

As to the rest of your increasingly incoherent drivel, e.g.:

You can compare detention rate to prison population or general population. As far as general population Venezuela is far far higher and the US is actually within the lowest in the hemisphere.

???? I already cited the relation of pre-trial detention to the general population for both the US and Venezuela, showing the rate is far higher in the US.

see post #106.

[joshcryer]

108. Yes, you neglect comparing it to the prison population.

Because the number looks better for you.

66 is still a lot bigger than 20.

[reorg]

111. can you count?

Last edited Tue May 7, 2013, 11:28 PM - Edit history (1)

66 percent of the total prison population in Venezuela (43,461): 28,771 = 99 out of 100,000 total population
20 percent of the total prison population in the US (2,266,832): 487,369 = 157 out of 100,000 total population

In real numbers (487,369 / 28,771) as well in percent of the total population (0.157 / 0.099), the number of detainees in pre-trial detention in the US far exceeds that in Venezuela.

That doesn't look good at all for the US. I have no idea what you mean, how that "looks better for me".

[Bacchus4.0]

99. and remember, in the US the arrested are not held with the general prison population

whereas in Ven they are held in the same prisons.

[joshcryer]

103. Excellent point there.

In fact that point you've made pretty much renders any sort of US / Venezuela detention argument moot.

[joshcryer]

18. The evidence is his filming people talking smack basically.

They have no real evidence against him.

[byeya]

66. Well known ploy. I am surprised others don't realize this but not surprised that several act

surprised. The local DLCers aren't very hard to spot.

[John2]

17. So who is a Hugo cultist now?

I never knew the man or met him personally. I did vote for the President twice. I don't think I'm an Obama Cultist either even though some people on the Right accused all Black people of voting for Obama because he was Black and not for his ideas. I hear that all the time when someone doesn't agree with a different opinion. I don't trust everything the media tells me either or maybe some edited film by media like Fox. Just like Polls, it depends on whose producing the product.

[joshcryer]

23. It was fun when they were arguing against counting votes.

Or when they said the idiot Maduro was influential to Chavez.

Or when they defended having fingerprint readers at every polling station.

Or when they were silent on the butterfly ballot the CNE made up last year.

[reorg]

43. and it's even more fun

when the detractors of Chávez suddenly lionize him as an intellectional giant and call the man who was pointed out by that very intellectual giant as a capable successor a dimwit.

Or when they warn of the dangers of fingerprint machines one day and the next day they're yammering about how terrible it is that some of these machines may not work!

Or when they make up one story after another without noticing that nobody takes them seriously anymore.

[joshcryer]

50. Oh, so you find chavista hypocrisy fun?

I may have to start liking you yet!

I've always respected Chavez and those who say otherwise are patently dishonest. You may find some snide remark here or there but I have been respectful of Chavez for years. That's irrelevant, though, because whatever I say on a forum means little, what the historians say is that Chavez was an intellect to be reckoned with, someone who was a master at rhetoric. They will not say the same of the idiot Maduro.

My comments about the fingerprint machines was in solidarity with those who protested them, you distort my position on the fingerprint machines which is unsurprising.

I find it amusing that your examples are about me though. I must give you ample entertainment! We're in great company here, because chavistas amuse me to no end and if they are entertained by me, well, then it's a perfect circle!

[Cha]

34. It's just predictable.

[treestar]

57. And being jailed for "destabilizing the country."

We don't have crimes like that on our books.

[DeSwiss]

20. K&R n/t

[Archae]

21. I guess that guy arrested in N Korea is 100% guilty too.

The tour guide arrested for "plotting the overthrow of the Revolutionary Government."

So in leftist countries, guilt-by-accusation is 100% the right thing to do.

In right-wing countries it's 100% wrong.

[Psephos]

33. well said n/t

[Proletariatprincess]

35. Wasn't the movie Argo based on that premise?

Phoney filmakers smuggled out hostages....remember? I don't know how much of that I believe either, (I hated the movie) but I am sure such a facade has been used before and since.
Nothing is ever as it seems in global politics. Hell, I even think that Emperor Nero could have been correct when he blamed the Christians for burning Rome in the first century.....

[Nye Bevan]

36. These people also claimed that the US somehow infected Chavez with cancer.

I'm sure these allegations are just as credible.

[Proletariatprincess]

39. Why is that so hard to consider?

Do you really believe that the USA is incapable of such an assasination?...or for that matter, any dirty trick to undermine a country unfriendly to USA interests (ie: corporate interests)?
The USA has committed terrible crimes in Latin America over the years and we can't blame them for suspecting more mischief from this corporate state. US credibility should always be questioned when it comes to it's actions and rhetoric concerning any country in Latin America.

[Archae]

41. I could say that Chavez was the guy who rigged the 2000 election.

Outside of my accusation, there is absolutely nothing to back it up.
Zero.

Likewise, outside of Maduro's accusation, there is zero to back up the "US poisoned Chavez with cancer" theory.

Hugo Chavez came down with cancer.
So did my Dad.

Both Chavez and my Dad died of cancer.

Shit happens.

[timdog44]

48. Sorry about your Dad.

Shit does happen. Funky shit gets said. Rigged elections and getting cancer do not equate.

You could say the elections were rigged, but you would need to show how. He won by a fairly large majority. He did the things down there that the work-a-day people liked. He also did the things that the vulture capitalists did not like.

[Archae]

49. I could say oil money was behind all of it...

And that would be all the "evidence" I would need.

Obviously, in the real world, more ACTUAL evidence is needed.

Likewise, more actual evidence is needed to back up the "Chavez was poisoned" accusation.

[joshcryer]

52. The Chavez was poisoned proof would be a breakthrough in cancer knowledge.

We're talking about knowing how to invent a certain type of cancer, and reliably. That's almost as good as a cure for that particular cancer. It'd be groundbreaking, historical, brilliant.

[bitchkitty]

80. Not true

Cancer CAN be caused by what you eat, drink, inhale or otherwise expose yourself to. But you already knew that.

[timdog44]

64. Sorry for the late reply.

I actually had to go to bed.

I understand that you want hard evidence here in the REAL world. I think it could be done. But one only has to realize what is the prize in Venezuela? You can answer that. Oil. The Venezuelan government has nationalized the oil and although I do not doubt that some of the proceeds are being use for not the best purpose, a large amount is being use for the people of Venezuela vs the vulture capitalists around the world who hide their money under a rock (read offshore account). My gut tells me that is true along with all the snippets of news I have read regarding both these situations over the past 10 years.

As an aside to the oil thing, I believe that any natural resource should be nationalized. Especially ones that are necessary to the running of the country. You watch, water is and will be the next big thing that big corporations are going to want to privatize. It will be worse than oil, and the worry of peak oil. We may already be at peak water. Sorry for the side track.

I don't have any evidence to the "Chavez was poisoned" accusation. Although in this day and age, I do not find it inconceivable. Cancer is much easier to initiate than it is to cure. There are any number of chemicals that create cancer. The bi food business in our own country is fighting that kind of thing on all fronts all the time. Not that I necessarily believe that is what happened to Chavez.

[treestar]

58. Not to that extent

Whatever we were doing, it was nothing like that.

[Ash_F]

47. Has somebody been watching Argo?

Looking at the man's work, he doesn't seem like the type to get really politically involved in foreign affairs. Most of his work just seems like fluff, to be frank.

[joshcryer]

53. That's my take too.

It looks like he wanted to make it big making a documentary about Venezuela. Hell, from the footage we saw it's possible that he would've put the opposition in a bad light. The fact that he was detained at a chavista rally and released indicates to me that the initial detention was forgiven and that overall they saw him as a documentarian at that time. They detained him again after the elections, saw he had footage of idiots spewing nonsense about rebellion, and decided then that he'd be a good scapegoat. Release his footage of evidence as a conspiracy, pow, you deflect from the countries' problems.

I'd bet all of his footage is destroyed.

[napoleon_in_rags]

54. Yup.

That's what it smells like to me. Sell this guy as a "spy" to anybody who's seen that movie.

People would never think it, but I believe that's what a huge amount of the spy world is about - not catching the real badguys, but finding some fool who you can sell to others as the bad guy, and hoping they'll buy in, for some kind of propaganda purposes. However if you're wrong, the CIA/FSB/Mossad/Al qaeda/whoever is laughing all the way to the bank.

What's amazing about the gentle and moral way is how it subverts even the most complex plans of secret operatives. Give this guy back, block his access to the country or whatever is necessary to prevent his previously detrimental actions, and call it done. Minimalism is so powerful.

Peace.

[Zorra]

83. +1

[dipsydoodle]

55. Venezuela rebuffs Obama, repeats case against U.S. 'spy'

(Reuters) - Venezuela brushed off criticism from U.S. President Barack Obama on Sunday and maintained its accusation that an American detainee in Caracas is a spy pretending to be a filmmaker.

>

But Interior Minister Miguel Rodriguez Torres insisted that intelligence agents tracking Tracy since late 2012 had uncovered ample evidence he was plotting with militant anti-government factions to destabilize Venezuela with violence.

"When you want to do intelligence work in another country, all those big powers who do this type of spying, they often use the facade of a filmmaker, documentary-maker, photographer or journalist," he told state TV.

"Because with that facade, they can go anywhere, penetrate any place."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/05/06/uk-venezuela-usa-idUKBRE94408M20130506

[marshall]

74. The internet gives these two bit film makers unwarranted power to cause trouble.

Witness the case of Mark Youssef, whose Z-grade Youtube video fomented so much trouble in the Middle East.