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cqo_000

(313 posts)
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 12:08 AM Jun 2013

UN chief opposes US arming Syrian rebels

Source: The Associated Press

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is opposing the U.S. decision to send arms to the Syrian rebels and says there can be no certainty of chemical weapons use in Syria without an on-the-ground investigation.

The U.N. chief reiterated Friday that there is no military solution to the more than two-year conflict and therefore increasing the flow of arms to either side “would not be helpful.”

The United States announced Thursday it decided to send lethal aid to the rebels after determining it had conclusive evidence that Syrian President Bashar Assad’s regime used chemical weapons against opposition forces.

But Ban told reporters “the validity of any information on the alleged use of chemical weapons cannot be ensured without convincing evidence of the chain-of-custody.”

Read more: http://globalnews.ca/news/642933/un-chief-opposes-us-arming-syria-rebels/

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UN chief opposes US arming Syrian rebels (Original Post) cqo_000 Jun 2013 OP
Who cares? ForgoTheConsequence Jun 2013 #1
We don't want that!... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #2
Why aren't the UN workers collecting info? This is a pretty big deal. I understand the gov't is okaawhatever Jun 2013 #3
I said this in John2 Jun 2013 #4
Why is it that Obama can't think for himself? Igel Jun 2013 #5
"conclusive evidence"?!!! Catherina Jun 2013 #6
Arming the rebels is a violation of international law, thus a war crime Coyotl Jun 2013 #7

ForgoTheConsequence

(4,868 posts)
1. Who cares?
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 12:46 AM
Jun 2013

This is Merica' we kill and arm who we want. Love it or leave it, don't tread on me, these colors don't run, get er' dun.


okaawhatever

(9,462 posts)
3. Why aren't the UN workers collecting info? This is a pretty big deal. I understand the gov't is
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 12:53 AM
Jun 2013

using the gas in small amounts so it's not real easy to track, but surely they could come up with something. Hello, this is sarin gas. Kinda serious stuff.

 

John2

(2,730 posts)
4. I said this in
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:31 AM
Jun 2013

another Post. The Russian media already turned some evidence over long ago to the U.N. of the rebel Al Nusra group using chemical weapons. There were reportedly Deaths of civilians and several witnesses. You forgot about the claim coming from a female U.N. head official? The U.S. rejected the claim, rebels had possesion of chemicals, but there have been independent reports not from the Syrian Government. Moon wanted to send his own team to the area.

There is also an alleged CIA report, during the surge in Iraq under the Bush Administration, insurgents under Al Qaeda, used a chlorine liguid in their mortars. They were suspected of gaining access to some chemicals or had developed the technology. The Maliki Government has recently reported, they arrested Al Qaeda insurgents with possesion of Sarin. Apparently the U.S. don't believe the Iraqi Government. That doesn't mean the U.N. wouldn't though, if evidence was turned over to them by the other side. It would put Moon in a bind. I don't know why the Western Media keeps reporting only one side. It makes the Media look like the arm of the Government.

Apparently we have competing journalists now gathering evidence on both sides. It was the Syrian and Russian media first. Now it is the French. The West has not accused Russia of lying yet, but apparently the Russians has took the first shot at Obama. They accused him of fabricating like Bush. The President needs to get out the bed with these Neocons. It is not too late to stop this course of nation building. It is Curve Ball all over.

Igel

(35,316 posts)
5. Why is it that Obama can't think for himself?
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:09 AM
Jun 2013

If he does something wrong, it has to be because he's "in bed" with somebody, presumably catching and not pitching. (Really, why do people immediately make that kind of an assumption?)

There was early discussion of helping the "rebels." (Much better term than "insurrectionists", dontcha think?) That course of action was rejected, for good reason. Esp. once the rebels started to make gains. Why help the winning side if you don't need to?

The late discussion of helping the rebels only seriously occurred when the rebels started losing ground.

If the rebels lose ground and ultimately lose, two things definitely happen and a third and fourth might.
1. Assad stays in power. A reformer 5-6 years ago, he's now pegged as having been a ruthless dictator 5-6 years ago. Neocons were gunning for him then and so the easy knee-jerk reaction was to defend him. That would allow somebody we don't like for formal reasons to remain.

2. Iran and Hezbollah keep an ally, one who is both stronger in some sense and also more in their pockets. Russia's ally also wins. Turkey's ally loses, as does the Qataris' and Sa'udis'. This doesn't suit US geopolitical interests.

3. This might embolden Hezbollah or even Syria. Nothing consolidates power like denigrating an outsider or enemy. Israel might be under the gun and do the unthinkable.

4. There might be a purge of those who were rebels or supported the rebels. If there's a purge of Alawites we apparently don't care. But Sunnis? A majority of the population (mixing up "Sunni" with "Supporters of the rebels" in a kind of classic shift-the-terms fallacy). That, of course, would be termed genocide, even if a small portion of Sunnis were targeted for political and not ethnic or cultural reasons, and hit deeply at a fundamental, core principle: There are times when we're opposed to genocide.

Now, strictly speaking 1, 2, 3 and even 4 can be viewed as neocon goals (the neocons were all about the S. Sudan genocide when Powers was on an antigenocide campaign but failed to notice S. Sudan. "At times" didn't include that time.)

On the other hand, it's hardly a liberal position to defend dictators (okay, right-wing dictators, the Ba'ath Party being an uncomfortable mix of Arab nationalism, fascism, and socialism). Nor is support for Iran an automatic progressive position. While it seems that being anti-Israel is sometimes a progressive position, that's only because that contingent is loudest. And a purge of Sunnis is a "genocide" that progressives could unite against.


Only later would we care that Islamists form a large part of the "resistance" and later demand a seat at government. Or would we care that the Islamists, should they be expelled from Syria, would go someplace else. Perhaps Iraq. Perhaps Jordan. Perhaps Pakistan or Afghanistan or even Egypt or Libya or Nigeria. That's too long-term a kind of thinking. We need results in the short term.

Of course, while the real reason is geopolitical, the "real reason" (TM) for intervention is a very lofty one: the use of a weapon of mass destruction as weapon of miniscule destruction. Rather like using an A-bomb as a kinetic weapon, dropping the thing on a building not for the atomic explosion but to simply crush the building. We're outraged at the unconfirmed possibility of a thing whose name we hate being used in a way that isn't much different from a 500-lb bomb. More outrage over form than over substance. It's rather a brain disease these days, an analog of spongiform encephalopathy that affects thought structures instead of organic brain structures.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
6. "conclusive evidence"?!!!
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 01:47 PM
Jun 2013
Each positive result indicates that an individual was exposed to sarin, but it does not tell us how or where the individuals were exposed or who was responsible for the dissemination.

From Complete Text of White House Statement on Chemical Weapons in Syria


How is that conclusive?

U.S. Couldn't Nail Down Chemical Weapons Chain of Custody

Russia: "what was presented...does not look convincing... It would be hard even to call them facts"

UN's Del Ponte says evidence Syria rebels used sarin

Oh what a tangled web we weave

Obama being a smart man, did not want to get dragged into this. Clinton, the bullshit artist, thinks this is going to fly? NO.
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