Greece rushes to meet lender demands
(Reuters) - The Greek government rushed on Tuesday to wring out another 325 million euros in budget cuts to satisfy euro zone finance ministers mulling whether to sign off on a rescue package to save the country from a chaotic default.
Squeezed between sceptical European capitals and deep anger in Greece, political leaders must also produce written commitments to stick to the terms of the 130 billion euro (110 billion pounds) bailout before the ministers meet on Wednesday.
A government official said the cabinet had already a proposal on the table and that Prime Minister Lucas Papademos would chair a session of the government at 3 p.m. (1300 GMT)
"There is a specific proposal by the government for the 325 million euros to be submitted to the Eurogroup tomorrow," the official, who declined to be named, told Reuters.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/02/14/uk-greece-idUKTRE8120SU20120214
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Earth_First
(14,910 posts)
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)that would also be extremely painful for the population. Anything they currently owe as individuals is repayable in Euros and the exchange rate between Drachmas and Euros may turn out to be not all that funny.
Once the dust settles their economy will once again be buoyed up by their tourist industry. Their current reluctance to accept payment by credit card, due to transparency, has already been offset by holiday companies in Europe increasing the number of all inclusive holiday there - with all food and drink covered 24/7 there's not much in the way funds necessary for much else.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)Book an all-inclusive package now, and you're tied in to paying the Euro rates (it's not as if the holiday company is going to say "currency fluctuation in your favour - here's a refund"
. Put off as much of the payment as possible until the time, and you might get a cheaper vacation in New Drachmas or whatever.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)but drop all efforts to keep the Greek Issued Euro equal to the Euro issued in the rest of Europe. Canada, Australia and Hong Kong all us the "Dollar" but none are equal to the US Dollar (Or the Original German Taler, which via Spain and Mexico became the Dollar).
In such cases a Greek who owns $500 Euro, could pay off that debt with his Greek Issued $500 Euro note, even through the rest of Europe would view that note as only equal to a $100 German Issued Euro note. The rest of Europe may object, but how do you force Greece to pay in German issued Euro, when the only currency in use would be Greek issued Euros?
In many ways that is the big fear, that if Greece decides to issue Euros with no effort to keep those Euros equal to German Euros, all Euros will drop in value. Pressure will build in Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Italy to do the same (i.e. issue Euros in their country's name, even as the value of those new Euros drop in relation to German issued Euros.
All this take is a printing press even if Greece is NOT issuing Euros today, it can do so at any time and technically they would NOT be counterfeit. Thus the debts would stay the same in terms of Euros, but Greece will pay those debts in Euros it issues, even if the debt holder wants to be paid in other Euros. Issuing money is a prerogative of any independent state, and thus Greece can print anything and call it a Euro.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)In the illustration you've used of Canada, Australia and Hong Kong its just a name - dollar. 
None are equal to the US Dollar and have no cause to be so.
The Euros they owe are EU Euros.
Greece cannot issue "Euros" as such and hence there would be no point. They might as well , should they decide to do so , just revert to the Drachma.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Greece is a Sovereign Nation-State, it can issue whatever it wants and call it money AND also call whatever it call money equal to German issue Euros. Owners of the debt may not like it, but the only way to FORCE the Greeks to pay more is to go to GREECE and demand such payment in the GREEK Courts applying GREEK Law.
One of the problem of the Euro is NONE of the Euro members gave up its Nation-state status, thus ALL retain the right to issue money. Technically the Central bank has the sole authority to issue money at the current time, but once Greece leaves the Euro Zone, it can start printing its own Euros AND rule by law that it is Equal to the Euro still being issued by Brussels. Who is going to stop them? No one is willing to send in troops and thus Greece can do as it wants.
Now, Greece will lose what trade it has with the rest of Europe, but Iran has offered to exchange Oil for Greeks Olives and other goods. Greece will be reduced to what Iceland is today, which is NOT that bad, disliked by Britain and the Euro Zone but doing well. I suspect the same will happen to Greece, maybe six months of hard times, then the economy will come back. More local, less trade but the economy will bounce back, which in the case of Greece today IT HAS FAILED TO DO.
This is what Argentina did ten years ago, and it has bounced back enough to make Britain nervous about the Falklands. Hard times, mostly on the rich, followed by a general raise in the economy.
Yes, I know Iceland and Argentina are NON-Euro using Nation-States, but they debts were in other currency and they just refused to pay them. The creditors could do NOTHING once that decision was made. Afterward, Trade declined as did imports, but they were people still willing to trade with both countries on a cash on the barrel head basis. It worked out well for both countries AND the people who traded with them after the default.
Not much a creditor can do if the Sheriff is the person who owes you money, the Sheriff is NOT going to sell his personal property to satisfy any judgement you have against him. You are out of luck unless he moves out of his home county, and Sheriffs do NOT do that, Greece is NOT only the Sheriff, but the Judge and the Court of Appeals, thus if all three refuses to pay their debt who is going to force them, given the Euro ZOne is NOT a federation like the US and thus can NOT force Greece to do what Greece does NOT want to do? No one is threatening to invade Greece so a default would work for them in the long run. Lawsuits are a waste of time (will be tried, but the Greek People will make sure such lawsuits are un-collectible). Thus sooner or later the Euro Zone will have to accept what it did NOT want to accept about Iceland, that National Sovereignty is still more important then corporate power.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)from corporations isn't it.
We are owned wholly by power companies, drug companies and above all, The Markets aka Big Money.
Thanks for spelling out how they could go about it. Today, I read a small village in Spain went back to the peseta, that people holding locally still owned. They later on plan to convert them to euros, as that's still allowed. Also, belgian neoliberals today announced they want to stop allowing that exchange. Hmmz gives me ideas 
It is largely symbolic but still. Money is worth whatever value you attribute it. Fiat currency...well the euro nor the dollar have my fiat.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)They need to be recognised for transactions to be accepted.
"demand such payment in the GREEK Courts applying GREEK Law." you will find elsewhere that the bonds now come under English law i.e. secured against assets where necessary.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Greece, like most countries, does NOT own things outside its borders, it citizens can and often do, but it is rare for the Country itself. Furthermore you will find that a wealthier country, like the US or Britain, owns more in a poor Country like Greece, then Greece owns in the US or Britain. This gives the Greeks thr ability to retaliate by simply taking the British own Greece located assets.
What Argentina and Iceland did was simple, they said to bad, gave up the few assets overseas and ordered all debts paid in local currency. The Debt holder had to right to sue in their courts, and would have lost, but instead sued in their home courts and won a noncollectable judgement.
As to the actual exchange rate, I concede that it requires both sides agreeing and given a Greece withdraw from the Euro Zone no such agree could occur, but only till people want what Greece can produce, and in Capitalist countries the possibility of making profit will over come the desire of the debt holders to be paid (In may require going through a third country. but trade will continue even if it means having to avoid Greece's Creditors).
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)are their nationalised industries which would become privatised.
Nihil
(13,508 posts)> Greece is a Sovereign Nation-State, it can issue whatever it wants and call it
> money AND also call whatever it call money equal to German issue Euros.
Somewhat reminiscent of North Korea or certain failed republics - whose leadership
somehow always managed to tuck their own savings away in a *real* currency ...
> Owners of the debt may not like it, but the only way to FORCE the Greeks to pay
> more is to go to GREECE and demand such payment in the GREEK Courts applying
> GREEK Law.
Depends on what they are selling.
If the owners of the debt are trying to get paid for importing tacky Chinese trinkets
then they're probably out of luck. If, however, they are wanting payment for food,
fuel or materials (in other words, some form of essentials rather than luxuries)
then it's the receiver in Greece that's not going to like it when shipments are
cancelled and they run short until the previous debt is paid off.
> once Greece leaves the Euro Zone, it can start printing its own Euros AND rule by
> law that it is Equal to the Euro still being issued by Brussels.
> Who is going to stop them?
Outside Greece? Exchange rates (if suitable exchanges can be found of course).
Inside Greece? Obviously nobody in law ... merely popular demand when people
realise that the oh-so-smart move of renaming their local currency from the
"Drachma" to the "Euro" is only hurting the people, not the politicians who did it.
> Now, Greece will lose what trade it has with the rest of Europe, but Iran has
> offered to exchange Oil for Greeks Olives and other goods.
What's on the menu? Crude oil and leftover olives ... not that appealing huh?
The only thing thriving in Greece will be the black market (and the moonshine
ouzo distilleries).
> Greece will be reduced to what Iceland is today, which is NOT that bad,
Half right: Iceland (today, yesterday, tomorrow) is certainly NOT that bad.
Greece however is starting from a point well, well below anything that people
in Iceland have hit in recent decades and (worse still for them) the Greek
people have been conditioned to expect something for nothing with regard
to pensions, social support and jobs - the Icelandic people didn't have a problem
with paying their taxes, just with specific bank & political leadership (many of
whom have already been punished, making Iceland pretty well unique in the
Western world with regard to treatment of financial criminals).
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)Also Iceland did not default on its sovereign debt.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)If the local Government makes sure inflation is kept in check, other then for imports, low inflation will result, Greece is NOT the massive importer of oil as is the US, nor even the imports into the rest of Europe.
Inflation occurs when the LOCAL ECONOMY goes bad, and that has already happen in Greece, but in a deflationary manner NOT an inflationary manner. Given the choice you always want inflation, but Greece is told it MUST do deflation. Dropping the Euro will permit Greece to inflate its economy and recover as did Iceland and Argentina.
Zimbabwe is its own special case, its inflation is driven by the refusal of the Government to do anything to stop the inflation, and people in Zimbabwe have become use to it, thus no push to end it. Zimbabwe is the first time in history that you had LONG TERM massive inflation, in the past when you had massive inflation it lasted no more then 3-4 years, then it stopped, either do to some new Currency being adopted that the Government did all it could to prevent from going inflationary, or the country started to use another country's currency as its own (Either method can include conquest of the Country OR revolution in that country). Zimbabwe is under no such threat either way, yet it still has massive inflation. No one expects any other country to do as Zimbabwe has done, but Zimbabwe seems to have accepted its massive inflation and have continue to have an economy with that massive inflation.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)And once again, Iceland did not default on its sovereign debt.
Here's a lesson on Argentina.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_economic_crisis_(1999%E2%80%932002)
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Lets look a Venezuelan inflation, 30 % is NOT hyper inflation, it is high by manageable:
As the economy contracted in the 1980s, inflation levels (consumer price inflation) fell, remaining between 6 and 12% from 1982 to 1986.[23] In the late 80s and early 90s inflation rose to around 30 - 40% annually, with a 1989 peak of 84%.[23] The mid-1990s saw annual rates of 50-60% (1993 to 1997) with an exceptional peak in 1996 at 99.88%. Subsequently inflation has remained in a range of around 15% to 30%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela
Compare that to Zimbabwe, with prices doubling every 1.3 days:
Inflation rose from an annual rate of 32% in 1998, to an official estimated high of 11,200,000% in August 2008 according to the country's Central Statistical Office.[108] This represented a state of hyperinflation, and the central bank introduced a new 100 billion dollar note.[109] As of November 2008, unofficial figures put Zimbabwe's annual inflation rate at 516 quintillion percent, with prices doubling every 1.3 days
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe#Economic_difficulties_and_hyperinflation_.281999.E2.80.932008.29
Venezuela is surviving quite nicely with its up to 30% inflation rate, it is high but most people and businesses have long learned to live with it (And it predates the current government, but at least a decade, the highest being 99.9% in 1996 FIVE years before Chavez won the presidency).
Yes, 30% inflation is high, but it has been the norm in that part of the world for decades. Chavez is caught between two forces, one is his Upper Middle Class who hates his guts, but demands that he continues low local gasoline prices and is ready to use any increase in those prices to attack Chavez's support among his base. The opposition is ready willing and able to attack Chavez in the eyes of his base (the poor) based on the affect any gasoline price increase would have on fuel paid by the poor to cook with even through it is the Upper Middle Class that gets the biggest benefit of that low price.
Another way Chavez can cut inflation would be to increase the price of food. The biggest problem is much of the third world is the dumping of excess food produced in the US, Canada and Europe, this so undercuts domestic food production that no one grows food locally (it is unprofitable, one of the side affects of NAFTA was the US could dump its excess Corn production into Mexico, forcing many rural Mexican peasants to look elsewhere for work, i.e. illegal immigrants into the US).
In much of the third world Peasants can not sell their produce at a price they can live on given the huge price discounts given by the West when it comes to grain and other excess food from US, Canada and Europe. This came up in the East Africa famine of the 1990s, as the famine ended, the price of food DROPPED below the cost of planting, harvesting and shipping it to market. This forced all the local producers out of the market, opening up East Africa for another famine do to lack of internal food production. This is the chief reason why you keep hearing of the famine in the same regions over and over again. Famine hits, price rise, US, Canada and Europe dumps its excess production to end the Famine, prices drop. Local food producers quit planting, local food production drops, US, Canada and Europe keeps dumping excess food production keeping food prices low, so farmers abandon their fields (or go to growing Cattle or other cash crop for export, since they can be exported for Hamburger to US, Canada and Europe). Drought hits again, cattle and any other export crop die so no exports to buy grain and famine hits again.
East Africa is the best (or worse, depending on how you look at it) example of this, but Chavez is facing the same problem. He has a lot of land NOT in food production and wants to get it into food production, but given that Venezuela imports over 2/3rd of the food needed by Venezuela, the best way to increase local food production, increase the price of food, undercuts the support Chavez has among the poor. Thus Chavez's efforts to keep food prices low for the urban poor, undercuts any move by the poor to these unused lands. Chavez is just the latest victim of this trend, his Right Wing predecessors (Including the one he lead an attempted coup against) had to deal with the same problem. To cut inflation Venezuela has to cut imports, to cut imports Venezuela must expand local food production. The best way to expand local food production is to increase the price of food. The problem is that in the short term that hurts the poor more then the rich and the poor will revolt over that issue leading to urban unrest.
The same with the low cost of gasoline. While most of the Gasoline is used by the Upper Middle Class and the Rich (no one else can afford to buy a car) these same groups will gladly use the image of the poor having to pay more to cook their food as a wedge issue between Chavez and one of his main area of support (The urban poor). Again the long term affect would be beneficial for its would cut one of the biggest expense of the Government and thus reduce the inflation rate, but in the short term harmful to the urban poor.
Side note: while Venezuela does refine some of its oil, most end up going to Texas to be refined and then shipped back to Venezuela for use (This is one of the reason recently the US became a net gasoline exporter while still a heavy crude oil importer). The cost to ship the oil to Texas is borne by the Venezuelan Government, the cost to ship the refined gasoline is borne by the Venezuelan Government, as is the subsidized price for the refined oil. All of these cost are paid by the Venezuelan Government and is one of the costs of inflation in Venezuela.
Zimbabwe suffers from a similar situation. The main exports of Zimbabwe are the agricultural products produced by the farms still run by the white farmers that had supported Ian Smith when it was known as Rhodesia. Again, these exports pay for the imports of food used by most people in Zimbabwe. The Government says it wants to convert more land to food production by giving it to the poor, but at the same time wants to maintain the present level of exports to pay for the food needed by the same poor. It is a box the Government is unwilling to get out of for it means doing something that is unpopular, i.e increase local food prices.
Most of the Military run Government of Latin America ran into this same problem in the 1980s and 1990s and thus turned over the Government to the left wing opposition for such left wing opposition had the legitimacy in the eyes of the poor to do these unpopular acts (This is how the Present Greek Government came to power, but, like the similar left wing government in Spain, has refuse to undo much of the harm done by the former Military Government based on the understanding it would NOT do so when the Military turned the government over to them). Thus you see massive attacks on these left wing government for doing want the Military Right Wing Government finally accepted had to be done (Ann then done only to a limited extent). Zimbabwe has no effective Left wing to the present government so that option is NOT open to the present Government. Thus it lingers on.
My point inflation in Venezuela is something the locals have come to accept, it is in fact LOWER then it was before the present Government. No one in Venezuela wants to do want is needed to reduce that inflation, so it continues. The main reason for the lack of opposition is the people of Venezuela have fully adjusted to the existence of inflation so it is NOT a big issue in Venezuela.
Over the last 20-30 years NO Government of Venezuela has been willing to what was needed to end the inflation, preferring inflation to political unrest. i.e. preferring inflation over the riots that Greece is going through at the present time. Thus Venezuela is a good thing to compare Greece to, one country has a Government with popular support (Venezuela) and one with an unpopular government (Greece). One had opted for inflation over deflation (Venezuela), one has opt for deflation over inflation (Greece). Given the choice which would you want to live in?
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)30% would seem like a dream. You are wanting something more akin to North Korea or Zimbabwe.
You would definitely create a captive audience though.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)currency as legal tender within its borders.
Whether that new currency is called 'Greek Euro,' 'Euro Greek Style' or 'Drachma' seems immaterial to me.
Issuing a new currency would ipso facto mean defaulting on all Euro-denominated debt, unless individual debtors were to choose to repay that Euro-denominated debt by purchasing Euros at the prevailing exchange rate.
CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)
lunatica
(53,410 posts)It's wealth, or whatever is left of it enriches others now. And by third world country I mean on a level with the worst kind of squalor and crippling poverty that takes decades, if ever, to recover from.
What do the people have to lose now by going along with it? Someone should have wondered about that. If you have nothing to lose and no hope to gain anything that's where the seeds of violent revolutions germinate.
The legislative and executive branches of government are out of control. Dysfunctional. Maybe the Courts can throw some wrenches in this Rube Goldberg disaster. It may be our last chance to not follow Greece over the cliff.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)400 tanks urgently ordered from the US if memory serves, late last year, read that on DU.
on edit: most google results for that are blogs, sourced to http://www.businessinsider.com/what-greece-to-buy-400-tanks-from-the-us-2011-10 ao
which cites this swedish article http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/grekland-shoppar-stridsvagnar_6527282.svd and has following google translation:
"According to the site Defencegreece, which in turn cites the newspaper Hellenic Defence & Technology, is the U.S. government gave the green light for the Hellenic Army to procure 400 of tanks such as M1A1 Abrams.
It’s about used vehicles, and the store is either a renovation, at a cost of tens of millions of dollars according Defencegreece, or a more advanced and even more expensive upgrade."
Swedish article which cites http://www.hellenicdefence.gr/eidiseis/e2011/110929c.html
Don't know what to think of it, my greek is nonexistant as is my swedish beyond Öl (beer).
So far, the 100+ injured riot police versus 60 protesters seem to indicate the police isn't strong enough to contain the people over there. Of course, the fact that 6000 police were in front of the parliament probably made the rest of the city a virtually police-free zone.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)The US has a long history of giving away military equipment when it wants Congress to buy new. When we were most likely to go to war with the Soviet Union (1947-1955) the main US tank was still the M4 Sherman. AS that likelihood declined after the end of the Korean War, the US ended up giving its Shermans to anyone it could, and then its m26 and M46 Pershing, then its M47 Patton I, then its M48 Patton IIs, all to be replaced by the M60. The M60 was a better tank then the M4., M26. M46 and M47, buy the only difference between the M60 and the M48 was the M60 had a Diesel engine and a 105 MM gun, while the M48 had a gasoline engine and a 90mm gun (and those were changed to Diesel engines and 105mm gun during the 1970s).
During the Korean War the M4 Sherman had a very good record against the Soviet Supplied T-34s of North Korea and China, but by then it was clear the latest Soviet tank was the T-54, and people in the US questioned the M4 against the T-54 thus the demand for a new tank (The M26, while having a 90mm gun, used the same engine as the much lighter M4, and in Korea was disliked for that reason. The M46 was an attempt to address that engine problem by putting the M26 turret on the body of a proposed US Heavy Tank, it did not last long, the Army quickly developed a larger turret for the 90mm gun for that body and called in the M47 Patton, which was put into mass production by the end of the Korean War, by which time an improved turret was adopted for the same body and called the M48 Patton II).
On the later models of the M60 a different turret was adopted, but it was just a marginal improvement, yet the US gave away M48s in the 1960s to make room for the M60. Why? M60 were all new, and thus the contractor could make more profit then upgrading existing M48s to M60 standards (I am ignoring the M60A2 which was armed with the MGM-51 Shillelagh missile system instead of the 105mm gun, it was replaced by the M60 A3 which returned to the 105mm gun).
I suspect the same with these M1s, this is to make room for all new improve M1s (Or an effort to show a US tank shortage so that the Army can get the new 140mm gun tank it has been looking at for over ten years, it is a much better tank IF FACING SIMILAR TANKS, but no one is developing a 140mm tank and over 120 and 125mm tank it is no better then the M1).
As to the Civilian protesters, 1960 era M60 tanks are good enough, these Civilians have nothing more powerful then Molotov cocktails thus the M4 Shermans of WWII would be as effective as the M1 against such Civilian protesters.
No, I suspect the M1 for Greece is do to US domestic politics, someone wants to create a tank shortage in the US, by exporting as many as the existing M1 tanks they can (According to Wikipedia, it was German Leopart II tanks NOT M1s tanks that the Greeks received).
More on the m60:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_Patton#Former
Side note: Greece recently replaced its M60 with Leopard II tanks, I suspect it was a gift from Germany for the same reason the M1 was offered, i.e. to clear up inventory so makers of the Tank could lobby for more tanks due to a "tank Shortage". 13 of the former Greek M60s were given by Greece to Afghanistan or its use right after they were retired from Greek Service.
According to Wikipedia the Leopard IIs had been to storage, so the price was low:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army
The Conventional Forces in Europe (CFE) treaty was a factor, it restricts how many tanks any one country can have in ACTIVE SERVICE AND how many can be to Storage, thus it was better to give the Leopard II tanks to Greece, so Greece could give away its M60 tanks, then for Germany to scrape the Leopards II (To my knowledge Germany has no Leopard I tanks, giving them all away when Germany adopted the Leopard II).
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/cfe/chron.htm
Just a comment, that the adoption of a New Tank was probably for reasons other then this unrest or even war with an enemy of Greece.
fujiyama
(15,185 posts)Seriously, it sounds like it was all a facade. Cooked up numbers to hide debts to support a bloated public sector, which produced little of anything which allowed people to retire at ridiculously young ages. Every other occupation was classified as high risk. People could retire in their 40s and collect a pension for the rest of their lives. On top of all that tax evasion is rampant among all classes of the population.
I'm really confused by many of the excuses I see on this site. While I certainly sympathize with hard working Greeks that put in an honest day's effort and ultimately lost everything, I see no good solutions here.
Greece certainly can default, leave the EU and become a pariah nation for the next 10-20 years - and that may be the better option here. Either way they're in for some measure of austerity.
And the anarchists and other idiots can riot all they want. This meaningless violence isn't going to help their once somewhat thriving tourism industry. Instead it just hurts the few Greeks that have jobs and provide jobs - the small shop and cafe owners among others.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)notwithstanding, have little more than contempt for the Greek and international working class.
Please explain to me how paying off Greek debt held by German, French and American banks (and their wealthy shareholders) through pay and benefit cuts to the workiing class would benefit that same working class in Greece (or anywhere for that matter) and I'll happily retract this post.
Until then, honest self-examination requires you recognize that you're arguing for the interests of the 1%, not the 99%.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)even less. This will ensure demand declines, and businesses lay-off because no one is buying their stuff. And then demand declines and they lay-off more people.
Tourism can not support the entire country especially when the people of Greece are rioting in the streets and burning down buildings.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)“No one knows what they do,” the head of the government audit office said last year.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/the-greek-tragedy/article2056715/
saras
(6,670 posts)In plain language, you simply do NOT have an organization that "no one knows what it does" unless they're a government spy agency. What you have is someone who is too lazy, or ideologically prejudiced, to go find out.
"It's generally agreed that 3 to 4 per cent of Greece's GDP is lost to tax evasion,"
and America's number? How much of our GDP goes, untaxed, to corporations?
"We are a Soviet-style economy,"
Uh-huh. Sure you are.
“Greece has been in denial forever,” says Jason Manolopoulos, a managing partner of Swiss hedge fund Dromeus Capital.
Now THERE'S a trustworthy authority.
Response to saras (Reply #10)
Post removed
villager
(26,001 posts)n/t
fasttense
(17,301 posts)In fact if you lower public employee pay, especially among the non-partisan positions, graft, bribery and pay-offs increase. These bureacrats have to make a living somehow and they have just enough power to ensure someone pays.
But aside from that, there will always be some amount of waste in a government system. There will always be people who try to play the sytem. But a good system will have an investigations and enforcement arm and this requires MORE people who are paid decent wages, no fewer.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)It was also a large earner of foreign exchange.
But it is likely dropping fast.
Renew Deal
(81,861 posts)They cut and cut and cut and it's never enough. Of course there is an answer to this problem and I think they should choose it rather than signing endless deals that damages their quality of life.
Johnson20
(315 posts)please, enlighten us. Seems to me that they will suffer long term or longer term regardless.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)The people of Greece have to suffer to make good on the bad investments? Gee, nobody can imagine why those crazy Greeks are rioting in the streets. Don't they know that the party the Big Money Boyz threw for themselves must be paid for? And who better than the people? You don't expect the banks to take a bath, do you? Why do you hate capitalism?
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)"The cabinet reportedly examined a proposal for the 325-million-euro shortfall to be covered from cuts to defense spending, public investment funds and the health sector. According to sources however, this proposal was rejected by Euro Working Group -- low-level EU finance ministry officials who were meeting in Brussels on Tuesday. The sources said that the EU officials insisted that the additional savings should come from cuts to pensions."
WTF
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_14/02/2012_427875
unkachuck
(6,295 posts)....these slimy banksters want people with little or nothing to give up their little....and for what?....to pay off the banksters gambling tabs while they rake-in hundreds of millions in bonuses....
....wake-up Greece, you invented Democracy! Be creative and invent something new!
1) Quit the EU/Eurozone
2) Print your own currency and pay the banksters with paper
3) Next election, elect only Communists
4) Create a planned economy and take care of your own needs
5) Solicit trading with China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela etc....they'll understand
6) Tax the rich and eliminated all non-social spending
....I'll be dead soon, but you people better get a handle on the evil 1% before it's too late or life won't be worth living....
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)feel that the interests of bankers trump the interests of the working classes never ceases to amaze me.