Mormon Church Apologizes for Posthumous Baptism of Jews.

[elleng]

The Mormon church apologized on Tuesday for the posthumous baptism by its members of the parents of famed Nazi hunter and Holocaust survivor Simon Wiesenthal. . .

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in its written apology, suggested that the action was the work of one member who they said has since been disciplined.

"We sincerely regret that the actions of an individual member of the Church led to the inappropriate submission of these names," Michael Purdy, a spokesman for the Church, said in a statement e-mailed to Reuters.

"The policy of the Church is that members can request these baptisms only for their own ancestors. Proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims are strictly prohibited," he added.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/02/14/us/14reuters-mormons-apology-wiesenthal.html?hp

[niyad]

1. it is absolutely hysterical that these people think that anything they do in that vein--baptizing,

marrying, etc., has ANY effect on the one on the other side.

[roguevalley]

7. i dont believe them.

[marias23]

54. They broke their promise

The Mormons promised in 1995 to stop and it seems they didn't keep their word. What a sick, arrogant invasion- to perform a secret religous rite without permission in relation to a dead member of another religion. A lot of peopel say that religion should not be discussed in realtion to elections - when you hear things like this it becomes more evident that religion MUST be discussed. (Romney apparently performed such rites.)http://www.americablog.com/2012/02/mormons-secretly-baptize-holocaust.html

[boppers]

26. So, why would it be offensive?

[ZombieHorde]

27. I am not a Jew, so I can only guess.

My guess is this has to do with the history of Christians trying to convert Jews to their faith, and the touchy subject of The Holocaust. The baptisms are two burns in one.

Just a guess.

[boppers]

29. If none of it matters, 2, or two hundred, are the same.

Irrelevant.

[oberliner]

35. Mormon Baptism Of Wiesenthal Kin Sparks Jewish Outrage

Two decades of anger, apologies and agreements have failed to keep the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from ending posthumous Mormon baptisms of prominent Jews and holocaust victims.

In the latest incident, the parents of the late Simon Wiesenthal, a survivor of a Nazi death camp and an advocate for holocaust victims, were baptized in a Mormon ceremony.

"We are outraged that such insensitive actions continue in the Mormon Temples," said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "Further meetings with Church leaders on this matter are useless."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/02/14/146854645/mormon-baptism-of-wiesenthal-kin-sparks-jewish-outrage

Clearly, to some Jewish people (and others), it matters.

[jwirr]

48. The baptism is a way of including them in the Mormon church. Jews have their own faith and do not

need another. I agree that what Mormons do has no effect on me or my family members and they cannot change the facts by some adlepated cerimony they cooked up in their own minds. But that is not going to stop members who gain kingdom points for every baptized member they can provide from doing it.

I also do not think this apology is sincere - apparently this is not the first time this has happened.

[Crunchy Frog]

44. It's an insensitive and disrespectful act.

Even if it has no actual tangible impact on anyone, it has a symbolic impact.

As irrational as it might seem to some, lots of people feel a need to maintain respect and dignity for their departed loved ones. When the loved ones died in the Holocaust, that adds an extra symbolic layer to the whole thing.

Anyway, with any luck it will have some relevance when it comes to Willard Romney's presidential aspirations.

[ZombieHorde]

53. None of it matters to whom? nt

[boppers]

68. In order:

#1, #26, #29.

[ZombieHorde]

69. #26 and #29 are both you. Was that intentional?

I have a feeling #1 leans more pagan than Jew, and doesn't seem to be offended.

[boppers]

70. Those two were basically discussing #1.

If it's all made up, then it doesn't matter either way, Mormon or Jew, because none of the arguments reflect anything of real substance.

[aquart]

71. Yeah. Touchy subject. You got it.

[dickthegrouch]

49. Because Mormonism is a tax dodge and Judaism is a *real* religion

[niyad]

57. I said hysterical, not offensive.

[snooper2]

40. There is no "other side" so the whole thing reeks of ignorance

Maybe we should built an arena around large churches, take the roof off, and charge for admission every Sunday for people to watch circus like rituals

[bluestateguy]

2. Sounds like a non-apology apology

Probably written by a lawyer.

Always be weary of a statement that begins "we sincerely regret..."

[msongs]

3. so are they gonna unbaptize them now? nt

[PearliePoo2]

4. What really IS amazing.......

...is that people are so fucking stupid to buy into this Hokus-Pokus Baptism Bullshit at all.

[Skittles]

8. those same people will make fun of the beliefs of other religions

it's amazing and disturbing what people can be made to believe

[Johnson20]

55. Yes, unlike

some of the folks here on DU.

[kestrel91316]

5. Phony apology. When people let their guard down again, they'll start right back up.

[annabanana]

6. For religious people to discover that these guys

are always "baptizing" their dead ancestors has to be disturbing. The reason that they have the most complete genealogy data in the world is to facilitate this kind of activity.

[jwirr]

50. I have a long genealogy for my family and I understand what the Mormons are doing with it -

especially since many of our members are Native American - but I do not believe in their idiocy so have at it. They have no power over either me or my dead family members.

[jimlup]

9. I'm sorry but this is really batshit crazy stuff all around...

I mean both that the Mormons baptized dead people and that other people are upset about it. I mean if a shaman in Haiti decides to put a curse on me - I frankly don't care. I'm a modern human and I'm aware that all this spooky stuff is just a silly hold over from our primitive roots and has no bearing on my reality.

[pangaia]

15. Jimlup, be careful what you say.

If you suddenly start drinking lots of rum, eating cigars, swinging a machete around your head.. that Haitian shaman may just have sent Ogoun to inhabit you.. :&gt )

[Crunchy Frog]

46. It's a way of symbolically disrespecting a person's dead loved ones.

Sort of like someone taking a crap on your mother's grave. It has no practical impact on her, but many people would be extremely upset and offended by it nevertheless.

Also, in this case, it's symbolically disrespecting the religion and identity that these people were murdered for. It's nasty, nasty stuff, and I just hope that some of it rubs off on Willard.

[dcsmart]

10. i do not know if i should be flattered or upset

that so many people want to convert us to their beliefs. Why is it so hard for christians to realize that jesus was a jew and that all of his teachings were centered on the torah and its application. Well, that seems a bit simplistic, and no doubt open to reasonable debate, as much jesus scholarship has demonstrated, but still it remains that jesus was a faithful follower of the torah, god's word to the people of israel and those whose hearts were open.

[elleng]

12. Thanks, dc.

[jwirr]

52. Very well said. Thank you.

[YogiB]

65. Well said.

[Ian David]

11. Mormon Church Apologizes (AGAIN!) for (MORE) Posthumous Baptism(s) of (MORE) Jews. n/t

[rexcat]

13. And religious people wonder why...

atheists get so fed up and vocal about the BS religious some people spew.

[bayareaboy]

22. on the other hand ...

Some atheists, just realize what numb-nuts do and consider the source, and realize that more folks will be at least agnostic.

[DCKit]

14. Then Un-do it fuckers.

"We commend this soul to Statan...."

On Edit:

Y'all damn well better hope your god is sending you to a galaxy far, far away, because when Jesus catches up with your ass, it's not going to be pretty.

Guess there's no Rumspringa for the Mormon youth.

[Purveyor]

20. +1 chuckle and thanks for commenting! eom

[JoePhilly]

16. I UNBAPTIZE every Mormon when they die.

And I make them an Atheist.

I will admit that I do not even attempt to keep records on this, I don;t have that kind of time ... but on the last day of each month, I tell God that the Mormons who have passed on prior to that date, should actually be viewed by God as Atheists.

I mean, if the Mormons can tell God who they think should be baptized as Mormons, then clearly I can tell God who should be unbaptized and labeled Atheists.

God and I talked about this, and he's cool with it. Turns out, God is not big on paper work either.

[waddirum]

17. Bill Maher performs an anti-Mormon un-Baptism in this episode

[JoePhilly]

18. Oh yea ... saw that ... its awesome ...

I wish the media talked about the insanity on the right in areas like this ... but they are terrified to do so.

[lonestarnot]

21. I heard about that one today. Cracked me up! Thanks for posting.

[beac]

24. Funny stuff...

especially since my atheist husband both has a ponytail and enjoys pineapple on his pizza.

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

30. Bill's confusing atheism for agnosticism.

It's nice that he has such an open-minded attitude to his beliefs, but the idea that God doesn't exist is just as unsupported and unprovable as any other religious position. Atheists like to think of themselves as smarter because their baseless assumption seems to make more sense than everyone else's, but it's still baseless. They might be personal about their beliefs, and not feel the need for the established communities, traditions, and infrastructure that other religions go for, but that doesn't mean atheism isn't a religion.

It's the agnostics who say "We have no freakin' idea whether or not God exists, or what He/She/They/It wants, because as yet we've seen no hard evidence that humans are capable of understanding". To many people that sounds like commitment issues, but it appeals to the way scientists, like Mr. Davies, are trained to think.

[AlbertCat]

39. God doesn't exist is just as unsupported and unprovable as any other

Wrong.
When one can find a natural mechanism for, say, evolution, or even the existence of mater, that works within the laws of physics, there is no need for a god to intervene or do anything at all. Now you can still say some god exists if you want, but it's a superfluous god that does nothing, and that is not the definition of a god. If you say god created the laws of physics, and then just sits back and watches it work, you still end up with a superfluous god, and not the definition most people have for 'god".

"Atheists like to think of themselves as smarter"

No they don't. Atheists are a diverse group that think many different things. Most of them base their ideas on science instead of ancient superstitions. Science is not baseless. It has empirical evidence to support it.

"but that doesn't mean atheism isn't a religion. "

It isn't a religion. It is based on reason and empirical evidence, not revelations and ancient superstition. Those who think it is a religion seem to simply be unable to think outside the ancient superstition box. They think atheism is the same process as religion, which it clearly is not.

As the sayings go....
"If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."
"If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color"
"If atheism is a religion, then off is a TV channel"

[damyank913]

76. Excellent

[dmallind]

42. Oh Christ this revisionist shite again

There is no "middle ground" between believing and not believing. Lack of belief in X is not belief in the lack of X

Agnosticism is an epistemological position not an ontological one. We know this because the guy who invented the word in 1869 left rather voluminous writings on the matter.

[snooper2]

41. ROFL ROFL ROFL absolute greatness

[grantcart]

23. I converted Smith to Scientology.

[arbusto_baboso]

19. The fact that this isn't the first time they've had to apologize for this...

means they aren't really sorry. They're only sorry they got caught.

They might as well piss on the graves of holocaust victims. It would be less insulting.

[TransitJohn]

25. Again?

They've been doing this and issuing apologies to Jews for a long time.

[BlueMTexpat]

28. This is one of their beliefs

with some unintended positive consequences for those who are searching out their genealogy. The LDS have compiled some of the best genealogical records in the US.

But it is a belief that someone hasn't really thought out too well. What if the person they baptize posthumously has gone to the Other Place? Does the posthumous baptism automatically "save" them and whisk them away from the everlasting fires? Also, as Grantcart notes above, what happens if a later-established "religion" - such as Scientology, say - also practices posthumous baptism? There are going to be a lot of confused spirits in the Great Beyond.

What I believe is that wherever I end up, assuming that I do move on to some Greater Existence somewhere, I'll most likely be among open-minded spirits. And that's where I would like to stay, thank you. Otherwise, I'd know I was in Hell.

[Cowboy8541]

31. I'm an Athiest

If anyone, from any religion, tries to convert me from the grave, I'll haunt them forever.

[aquart]

72. Atheist.

[the_chinuk]

32. It's always just one rogue agent, isn't it?

Oh, if only they'd of known, this embarrassing thing would never have happened!

Wonder who had to take one for the team?

[Redstate Bluegirl]

33. I was under the impression

that Mormons did thingfs like this all the time.

[crim son]

34. Interesting timing. n/t

[oberliner]

36. What is interesting about the timing?

Can you elaborate?

[snooper2]

43. Because it's a Wednesday?

[AlbertCat]

37. Mormon Church Apologizes for Posthumous Baptism of Jews.

But they have yet to apologize for thinking something as stupid as "posthumous baptism" was ever thought of.

[nanabugg]

38. Just, no words. nt

[4_TN_TITANS]

45. So now you can baptize ghosts???

Damn I love my Unitarian Universalist church, most rational people I know.

[libodem]

63. By proxy

Doing temple rituals. Baptism for the dead is just one of many. They also do temple marriages and seal the children to the parents for eternity in the Celestial Kingdom.

[FarCenter]

47. Since they are dead, they no longer exist, so it is all meaningless.

[LanternWaste]

58. Hence the offenses taken at a meaningless act?

"so it is all meaningless...."

Hence the offenses taken at a meaningless act?

[FarCenter]

59. Yes, baptizing someone who no longer exists is meaningless.

[mistertrickster]

51. Jews should posthumously circumcise Mormons . . . see how they like it. nt

[YogiB]

67. Rofl!

[yurbud]

56. I think the correct response is for other religions to adopt the practice

Jewish leaders could baptize everyone in the past anti-Semites admire.

Muslims could baptize everyone Republicans admire.

The problem would be how to handle multiple religions baptizing the same corpse--would the rule be first dibs or most recent trumps older ones. Either way, if the newer baptizing religion requires circumcision, they should have to perform it on the target for their claim to count.

[aquart]

73. We. Do. Not. Baptize.

We will, however, cut off your teeny tiny turtleneck if you're a boy. Or a man, in the case of Shechem.

[yurbud]

75. isn't there a commandment to circumcise your slain enemies and pile up their

foreskins like onion rings?

[aquart]

77. Not in the original ten.

Celts liked piles of heads, though.

[Brettongarcia]

60. Suing Romney and the Mormon Church for collusion; campaign finance regs

Obviously, from watching TV the last few months, it is clear that the Mormon church has begun a massive and systematic advertising campaign, to convince viewers that Mormons are normal people; and good Christians.

Is it an accident of timing, that this campaign comes at precisely the very time that a Mormon is running for President?

So? To what extent, was this campaign not "soft" money in action, but even a deliberate, coordinated campaign arrived at by collusion between Romney and the LDS? A violation of "hard money" rules?

In either case, we are seeing a coordinated collusion.

Therefore? Maybe its time to systematically remind the public of Warren Jeffs; polygamy, and child abuse, in the church.

By the way: anyone see the play about "Mormons" on broadway?

[Blue_Tires]

61. Dumb question, but how do you know who got baptized?

Does the church send a welcome card to the family of the deceased?? Do they make a public announcement? How does that work??

[HeiressofBickworth]

74. They have the bad taste to publish

I haven't found them on line, yet, however, when I've used their library in Salt Lake City they have family group sheets (showing parents and children) showing the dates they have performed various services over the deceased, by proxy.

[libodem]

62. They just jumped the gun a little

All Jews will instantly convert during the rapture and recognise Joseph Smith as a prophet, anyway.

[HeiressofBickworth]

64. Another example

of Lying for the Lord. They continue the practice of baptizing dead people, and in the instance of Jews who died in the Holocaust, they don't even have to be relatives of anyone. They just baptize them en masse. They've done it for years, apologized several times before, and they will continue to do it until the next time they are caught when they will issue another "apology" and blame it on one single person. The truth is that it is a tenant of their religion as a whole.

Not only do they baptize the dead, they "seal" spouses to each other. So, for Mormons, if a woman had a violent husband who subjected her to domestic abuse, she divorced him and married a real sweetheart of a guy who treated her like a queen, for Mormons, she would be sealed to her first husband as they only recognize first marriages.

I'm an athiest so it doesn't matter to me, but what DOES matter to me is the arrogance and disrespect they show for the culture, beliefs and lives of others. That pisses me off.

You may think I have something personal against Mormons. Not really. I don't care if they or anyone else worships the divinity of cockroaches, but I do care about a group of people professing love and tolerance but acting in total opposition to what they preach. In other words, I really dislike hypocrites.

[eringer]

66. Face it. As long as there are obits in the paper, everyone is going to be baptized Mormon