South American Nations Furious Over Diversion of Bolivian President's Plane

[Comrade Grumpy]

Source: The Guardian (UK)

Here is a summary of events so far:

A major diplomatic incident has occured after a jet carrying the president of Bolivia was rerouted to Austria. Various European countries prevented the plane from overflying their airspace, amidst suspicions NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden was onboard.
Austrian foreign ministry officials subsequently said Snowden was not onboard. Morales, along with the Bolivian defence minister, remain at Vienna international airport.

The defence minister has said that France, Portugal, Italy and Spain had prevented the jet from entering their airspace. The airspace ban is still being enforced by Spanish authorities. He blamed the decisions on pressure from the US government.

A number of South American states have voiced outrage at the incident, and, according to Argentinian president Cristina Kirchner, the Peruvian president Ollanta Humala has called a meeting of the Union of South American Nations to discuss the ongoing events.

The Bolivian vice president, Alvaro Garcia, said Morales had been "kidnapped by imperialiam".

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

---

Wow. L'affaire Snowden is opening up huge divisions, and not just on Democratic Underground.

This insult has the potential to hasten the decline of US influence in Latin America and to chill relations between the region and some of the European powers. I'll be disappointed if Bolivia doesn't respond by telling a few European ambassadors in La Paz to taken an extended vaction back home.

And isn't it a bit hypocritical of the Europeans to squeal about the NSA spying on them, then turn around and behave like lapdogs of the US, fucking with a sovereign head of state on the basis of rumor?

[Downwinder]

1. Might send some home from Brazil and Argentina.

Finding an International enemy might quench home fires and pull people together.

[Cleita]

2. This is an extreme lack of respect for a head of state.

If he had given Snowden asylum on his airplane, it should have been negotiated through diplomacy. This cowboy crap is awful.

[sam_25tx]

4. U Are Right

I agree completely

[uppityperson]

56. +1, U agree?

[Comrade Grumpy]

5. They treated the president of Bolivia like a criminal suspect.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

11. No, they treat him like we are still fighting the Cold War.

[Judi Lynn]

20. The U.S. Gov't has always fully supported the viciously racist white right-wing oligarchs

in Bolivia, who wouldn't even allow the indigenous people, the huge majority, to walk on the sidewalks until after a revolution in 1952. They were also not allowed to vote until very recently in that country after it was invaded and stolen by Europeans.

The U.S. has been completely high-handed and dirty toward Evo Morales from even before he was elected by a landslide to Bolivia's first Presidency by a native American Bolivian. Ugly, ugly, wildly ugly seeing a huge country act so dirty, underhanded, small, petty, and dishonest toward such a small, poor country.

Anyone unaware of the criminals whom were stoutly supported for the Bolivian Presidency by the U.S., even put in place in coups, should take the time to start delving into it.

Be sure to reserve time to look for a Nazi who lived there after WWII, Klaus Barbi, who managed the tortures, etc. for the US-planted bigot, mega-racist who stole land from the ingenous, and gave it to settlers from South Africa as he tried to build a White Bolivia, Hugo Banzer.

[Octafish]

88. Klaus Barbie, ally of Rev. Moon in Bolivian cocaine trade.

Rev. Moon, ally of Bush family in US politics and business.

[Arctic Dave]

37. No, they treated him like someonne living the "US's backyard".

That quote is from Kerry.

[alittlelark]

6. We reap what we sow.....

.... (left open to interpretation)

[AZ Progressive]

7. Was this staged (in using Evo Morales) to send a message to other countries...

To not ever consider giving Snowden asylum because the U.S. will manipulate its allies to bear down on you.

The U.S. IS an Empire, and is showing it as it is in its ability to manipulate countries around the world to do its bidding.

[Iliyah]

8. Oh shit

bad bad America, the worst place in the world.

[DeSwiss]

9. Let it Snowden, let it Snowden, Let it Snowden!!! - K&R :-} n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

10. Don't these people understand that Socialism is EVIL?

[quadrature]

12. commercial flight, or plane owned by Bolivia?

we never know the complete story.
keep in mind nutty things can happen.
for example.
President Christina has to be careful
where she flies as to keep herself,
her belongings, and her airplane
one step ahead of the repo man.
Argentina is broke.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

13. The United States is broke too.

Whats your point besides taking a xenophobic swipe at Kirchner?


And this is the plane that was grounded, does it look like a "commercial" plane to you?

[Judi Lynn]

24. What kind of loon has the lowness to hate Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, anyway?

They make spectacles of themselves with their hatred of people of whom they know next to nothing, and their assumptions Democrats are as backward, malicious, and stupid as they are.

That's a great photo. I've never seen one of it so clearly. He hasn't had it a whole long time, and was so thrilled when they got it.

Best wishes to the real people of the Americas.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

52. They're naive.

They basically repeat neo-con foreign policy talking points, all this anti Latin america talk on here could be taken directly from Bill Bennett's mouth. If they would think outside of their little MSNBC bubble and read up they might actually get a feel for why so many in Latin America don't trust the United States. Trust is earned.

[bitchkitty]

54. Naive? You're too kind.

IMHO, they're either paid operatives or just fucking stupid.

[JimDandy]

15. The plane was the equivalent of Airforce 1

and carrying the equivalent of Obama.

Wow... just wow... The U.S. interferring with another country's presidential plane.

Wonder if Obama will be denied flyover rights on his way back from Africa?

[24601]

59. No one intercepted the plane. No one shot at it. No force or suggestion of force was in play. It

was just that several nations disapproved entry to their airspace. Had the aircraft declared an emergency different rules would have kicked-in and they could have landed, but that was not the case.

In short nations have the right to control their airspace, even when VIPs are on board.

If anyone on DU judges that North Korea would let AF1 overfly its territory, speak up now.

[Ash_F]

17. President Kirchner

Nice job getting in those misogynist jabs on a Democratic site. I am impressed that you made it to 334 posts.

[cosmicone]

30. Nutty things can happen?

It is a joke to you? Xenophobic much?

[Ash_F]

14. I guess they needed to be reminded of their place

<- I wouldn't need this if not for the posters who actually think this way.

[Ash_F]

16. Not to mention loss of dignity by those European nations

"This insult has the potential to hasten the decline of US influence in Latin America and to chill relations between the region and some of the European powers."

This is doubly embarrassing for the listed European nations, making them look like puppy dogs getting yanked around by the collar by the US. This humiliation in front of their own citizens could lead to a decline in relations with US, as their leaders struggle to compensate and prove that they have their own will.

Expect more EU leaders publicly criticizing US spying in the coming weeks.

[Sherman A1]

18. I believe the the action to be beyond absurd

I would not be surprised if their is some diplomatic response from Bolivia for this act and I believe that it would be justifiable.

[bemildred]

19. It certainly puts paid to the notion that Snowden is not important.

And another swing, and another miss, too.

[Sherman A1]

23. My thoughts exactly

I believe that boat has sailed....

[Judi Lynn]

21. Thank you, Comrade Grumpy, for this info. Rec. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

22. "hasten the decline of US influence in Latin America"

Everything has its bright side.

[treestar]

25. Oh Waaaaaaaaaah

Who cares?

Too funny how suddenly President of a county with own private plane is not a member of the 1%. Minor inconvenience.

Seems no country wants the headache that is Eddie.

[Kurovski]

26. This is an uncharacteristicly ugly post on your part. (nt)

[mitchtv]

60. I disagree

it is characteristicly ugly

[idwiyo]

27. I guess if the same thing happens to Air Force 1 because of suspicion that some undesirable person

is aboard, you will sing the same song?

[treestar]

38. Of course. No country has to let AF One go over its airspace.

I doubt it tries to fly over North Korea, no matter how convenient.

[cosmicone]

31. Evo Morales is not part of 1% n/t

[treestar]

39. Private plane?

Sorry the brigade at DU that does not trust any politician does not get a pass here (whether you are of it is another question).

[cosmicone]

51. He is a socialist and a reformer

He is the head of state of a country on an official visit -- is he supposed to hitch a ride on a freighter to satisfy DU?

Evo Morales has done more for the poor of Bolivia by breaking up oligarchies, created land distribution policies etc. He should be worshipped on DU instead of being scorned.

[lunatica]

32. You should be embarrassed at your ignorance

But obviously you're not. Evo is a South American native indian. He does not own the airplane and he is the President of a Sovereign State who was duly elected by his country.

The very least he should expect is respect. Especially from us.

[treestar]

40. I've heard enough about politicians and how they should not be trusted

To find it very odd there is such great trust for a foreign politician. Ours are all bad and yet Evo is OK? What's this?

[Peace Patriot]

46. Know anything about Evo Morales, Bolivia, apartheid in Bolivia, the Bush Junta embassy in Bolivia

(hint: organized/funded a white separatist coup attempt against Morales, right out of the U.S. embassy), the demographics of Bolivia, the history of Bolivia, U.S. policy in Bolivia past and recent, elections in Bolivia, Morales' electoral mandates and poll ratings, grass roots activism in Bolivia, labor unions in Bolivia, the DEA in Bolivia (hint: DEA "trained" white police kidnapped Morales and beat him up for union organizing) ...at all?

Time you found out. There are some politicians in this world who do merit praise and admiration. Nelson Mandela is one. Evo Morales is another.

[treestar]

62. I'm not Bolivian

And right, I know less about it, so why should I think their politicians are inherently more trustworthy than the ones I voted for here, in a country I know?

[socialist_n_TN]

80. Well you ARE the one who's saying (or at least insinuating)...

that "our" politicians are more trustworthy than "their" politicians. If you're going to insinuate that, you might want to research the two groups.

[treestar]

83. No I didn't. That kind of straw man is overused on DU.

I did not say ours were more trustworthy. I said I had no reason to assume Bolivia's were more trustworthy than the ones I know about and elected along with my fellow citizens. YOU added the concept that I said ours are always more trustworthy.

I have been scolded for not knowing all about Bolivia (and presumably every other country). It appears from the other poster I should have known Bolivian politicians were more trustworthy. That is what appeared to me unfair and to which I responded. We are scolded to believe our own politicians are always liars by the same posters who want us to accept unquestioned that a foreign politician, in a country we admittedly don't know as much about, is in fact trustworthy and truthful.

The real reason is that he did or said something they like and that's about it.

[bitchkitty]

61. If you spent a few minutes doing your own research,

you wouldn't have to ask that question. Evo Morales might not be a saint, but he is DAMNED close.

Why flaunt your ignorance like a flag?

And not all politicans are bad, and I don't think anyone on DU has stated that all politicians are bad - Bernie Sanders comes to mind. Alan Grayson. Elizabeth Warren. None of them perfect, but it certainly puts the lie to your silly post.

[treestar]

63. A Saint?

Really?

Well I guess you know everything about every country in the world, then.

Since he took office in 2006, some analysts and human rights organizations have stated that many of the actions and policies of the Morales government have substantially eroded the rule of law and threaten to weaken the situation of human rights in Bolivia.[88][89] In August 2011, police violence on peaceful protesters became international news. Morales denied giving the police the order to attack the protesters, but the event tarnished his approval ratings. He issued a public apology and continued to claim the officers acted on their own.[90]

The constitution, drafted in 2006–07 and approved in 2009, provides for balanced executive, legislative, judicial, and electoral powers, as well as several levels of autonomy. The traditionally strong executive branch tends to overshadow the Congress, whose role is generally limited to debating and approving legislation initiated by the executive. The judiciary, consisting of the Supreme Court and departmental and lower courts, has long been riddled with corruption and inefficiency. Through revisions to the constitution in 1994, and subsequent laws, the government has initiated potentially far-reaching reforms in the judicial system as well as increasing decentralizing powers to departments, municipalities, and indigenous territories.

What cracks me up is all this concern for someone on a private jet.

[bitchkitty]

64. One paragraph from Wikipedia proves your point?

Athough I'm not exactly sure what your point is - it seems to be that because we don't like a particular American politician, then we shouldn't like any foreign ones. Wierd.

I didn't say he was a saint, but I did say he was damned close. And I meant it.

I'm sorry that twists your tampon, honey.

[treestar]

66. It certainly points in a direction

You used the term saint. LOL. And you claimed to know it all. But posted nothing. Some wiki stuff is at least something

From December 29, 2005, Evo Morales undertook an international tour described by Latin American media as exceptional.[1] For two weeks, Morales visited several countries in search of political and economic support for his agenda for the transformation of Bolivia. This tour is said to have constituted a break with decades of tradition in which the first international destination visited by a president-elect in Bolivia was the United States. His itinerary also reinforced the view that his election was part of a strengthening of "anti-imperialist" governments and movements in Latin America.[2]

Was this international tour on a private jet?

Fighting their War on Drugs, the U.S. government hoped to stem the cocaine trade by preventing the production of coca; they pressured the Bolivian government to eradicate it, sending troops to Bolivia to aid the operation.[22] Angered by this, Evo returned to cocalero campaigning; like many comrades, he refused the $2,500 compensation offered by the government for each acre of coca he eradicated. Deeply embedded in Bolivian culture, the campesinos had an ancestral relationship with coca and didn't want to lose their most profitable means of subsistence. For them, it was an issue of national sovereignty, with the U.S. viewed as imperalists; activists regularly proclaimed "Long live coca! Death to the Yankees!" ("Causachun coca! Wañuchun yanquis!&quot .[23] From 1982 to 1983, Evo served as the General Secretary of his local San Francisco syndicate, before serving as Secretary of Records from 1984 to 1985, and then General Secretary of the August Second Headquarters in 1985.[23]

In a speech on this issue, he told reporters "I am not a drug trafficker. I am a coca grower. I cultivate coca leaf, which is a natural product. I do not refine (it into) cocaine, and neither cocaine nor drugs have ever been part of the Andean culture."[27]

So somebody else does the making of cocaine and the creation of addicts.

[bitchkitty]

68. Again with the Wikipedia.

My post said:

If you spent a few minutes doing your own research, you wouldn't have to ask that question. Evo Morales might not be a saint, but he is DAMNED close.

Why flaunt your ignorance like a flag?

And not all politicans are bad, and I don't think anyone on DU has stated that all politicians are bad - Bernie Sanders comes to mind. Alan Grayson. Elizabeth Warren. None of them perfect, but it certainly puts the lie to your silly post.

Now - I do not state in my post that Evo is a saint. This is clear to everyone, including you.

Nowhere in my post do I claim to "know it all". Again, this is clear to everyone, including you. It's kind of stupid to make up lies when everyone can see you're lying.

I'm not Wikipedia, but I think I made it simple for you. You're welcome.

[treestar]

69. You have quoted nothing at all.

Not even Wikipedia. Which is not wrong, ipso facto.

So here is a person rationalizing coca leaf growing. Because it's not his problem what other people do with it.

[bitchkitty]

73. So...you want me to quote something that proves your ignorance?

OK.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=526021

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=526148

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=527032

You're welcome!

[treestar]

75. You apparently know nothing about anything

except your own knee jerk conclusions.

[Pholus]

77. And, to continue this informed discussion we can now link back to post 25.

Yay, infinite loop!

[Judi Lynn]

70. How could you live so long and not grasp coca has been used daily in a DIFFERENT way

for THOUSANDS of years in South America?

What on earth has prevented your knowing such a simple fact?

Bolivians, Peruvians, other people in the Andes have used coca forever, just in helping to tolerate extreme altitude and the sickness that can accompany it, as your breathing is totally re-arranged.

How could you not know?

They were growing and using coca AGES before anyone decided to start screwing with the plant and convert it, through a process, into a completely DIFFERENT item, a wholly DIFFERENT USE.

Good god almighty. Unbelievable.

Study, and don't post until you know what you're talking about.

[bitchkitty]

72. Too much to hope for, I fear.

Study, and don't post until you know what you're talking about.

He celebrates his ignorance.

[Judi Lynn]

74. Got a lot to celebrate. Excessive. Could be too dangerous. n/t

[treestar]

76. And every bit of it gets used that way

How can you not figure out where the excess goes?

Get off your high horse and find some facts, then maybe your posts might persuade somebody of something.

[treestar]

78. oh lookee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca_in_Bolivia

Bolivia's most lucrative crop in the 1980s was coca, whose leaves are notoriously processed clandestinely into cocaine. The country was the second largest grower of coca in the world, supplying approximately 15 percent of the United States cocaine market in the late 1980s.[4] Analysts believed that exports of coca paste or cocaine generated from US$600 million to US$1 billion annually in the 1980s, depending on prices and output.[4]

[socialist_n_TN]

81. A private jet?...

Is Air Force 1 a "private" jet?

[antigone382]

82. It's not a private jet. It is the property of the Bolivian government. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

79. Ours are motivated by systemic neo-liberal greed...

Socialists usually aren't. In addition, ours usually START out as part of the 1%, not as part of an oppressed minority. And if they're not 1%ers BEFORE they are elected, they usually are AFTER a few years. LOTS of differences.

[Bradical79]

35. Why shouldn't they have a jet?

We've got a jet for our head of state. Seems like an important thing for a country to have in modern times. I know exactly zilch about Bolivia or their president, but criticizing Evo Morales for flying on their equivalent of Air Force One seems kind of stupid to me. Of all the things I could be outraged at a foreign head of state for, that would be extremely low on my list. I could only imagine the security and logistics nightmare it would be to have to send my president to meetings in other countries on a private comercial flight.

[treestar]

41. As long as you're not complaining about AF One

Or saying that the US are bullies or have no right to their President flying around the world, then fine.

[Bradical79]

65. I don't recall much complaining about Air Force One

Though being bullies, or not being bullies, has nothing to do with a country owning a jet to fly their head of state where he needs to go.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

42. There's no principle you won't toss aside if you think it helps Obama

[treestar]

43. How does my post "help Obama?"

What principle is involved here?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

45. Your post doesn't help him at all, I promise.

[treestar]

67. Then your whine above was about what?

Interesting that the idea of "helping Obama" is inherently wrong in your view.

[rusty fender]

85. He is so blinded by his love for Obama that he

can't be bothered with logic or facts. If there is the slightest criticism of Obama, he goes beserk.

I used to be flabbergasted by him; I used to feel sorry for him; but now I just accept that he is what he is.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

86. Yes, that's the formula. I think she has an emotional investment in the President

Because of this, rational thought goes right out the window. It's impossible to argue with a person like this because there's no mutually agreed upon standard for truth.

[Forgot10Hiro]

87. Justifying the unjustifiable. NT

[Comrade Grumpy]

53. The Ugly American rears his head.

[cantbeserious]

28. The Oligarchs Are Having A Family Feud

eom

[sikofit3]

29. I guess the spying has worked

Looks like we have been busy on the phone using all that information on heads of states that we have gathered..... I would think normally a lot of these governments, if this is true, would have told us to fuck off over this request. However, what did they threaten them with if they didn't comply...

[Thor_MN]

33. Just great, countries phoning in anonymous Snowden threats to ground airplanes...

[Snarkoleptic]

34. Good point

And isn't it a bit hypocritical of the Europeans to squeal about the NSA spying on them, then turn around and behave like lapdogs of the US, fucking with a sovereign head of state on the basis of rumor?

Quite a bit like the Pakistani government publicly expressing outrage over drone strikes they've green lighted.
It's all a bunch of PR BS for mass consumption and to maintain plausible deniability.

[byeya]

36. It doesn't matter what you and I - Americans - think; it matters deeply what the people and

leaders of Central and South America think and "the chatter is not too good"
The tone deaf leadership of Obama scores another own goal.

[dixiegrrrrl]

44. The tone deaf leadership ....

Exactly....
Very disheartening to see our foreign policy seems intent on being the world's bully, backed up by weapons of mass destruction.
We really cannot afford to do that anymore.

[byeya]

47. South America has alternatives now and American diplomacy has to change with the new reality.

That doesn't seem to be happening and nations with natural resouces and productive capacity can, and will, go elsewhere. These nations remember USA-backed military dictatorships - like the overthrow of the democratically elected Joao Goulart in Brazil - and want to avoid that in the future.

[dixiegrrrrl]

48. We are, and have been, such bullies.

There are a lot of credible threats to that continuing scenario, now....US really has few allies left, China and Russia are courting the same countries the US needs for markets.
Payback is such a bitch.

[byeya]

55. And, it didn't have to be this way. The USA with its huge economy and natural resources could

have been a benign neighbor and a trusted neighbor.
I am glad the last two administrations, including this one, had their attention diverted by other imperial adventures and allowed South America, vice Colombia and Paraguay, room to gain a measure of independence.

[Historic NY]

49. The point is the plane still had to land to take on fuel....

it needs permission. This was an unscheduled stop....sure would be nice to know what their flight plan was.

[Gregorian]

50. WE'RE NUMBER ONE BECAUSE WE HAVE THE BIGGEST GUN

That's my attempt at dark humor and rhyme.

America is like a 7 foot tall, rich, crack addict, robber. We're high, and we just take what we want.

[The Stranger]

57. First I was freaked out by the extraordinary power being wielded.

Now I am positively scared shitless.

[yurbud]

58. this is a bigger deal than the actual spying on allies

Which, as Obama said, is somewhat par for the course.

Snowden must have had access to something very, very damaging to the elite to get this kind of response.

[Judi Lynn]

71. Latin Bloc Condemns Hostile Acts Against Bolivian President

Latin Bloc Condemns Hostile Acts Against Bolivian President

LIMA, July 4 (BERNAMA-NNN-ANDINA) -- The Union of South American Nations (Unasur) has criticised European governments for barring Bolivian President Evo Morales' plane from their airspace.

~snip~

In a statement, the Unasur group expressed "its indignation and a profound rejection of the unfriendly and unjustifiable acts that put at risk the safety of the Bolivian head of state and his team."

The Unasur, whose rotating presidency is held by Peru, is also demanding more information about the event.

"Unasur expresses its deepest solidarity with the Government of the Plurinational State of Bolivia, and in particular with President Evo Morales," the 12-member bloc said in a statement.

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v7/wn/newsworld.php?id=960913

[Enrique]

84. ok Obama League, you know what to do

dig up dirt on South America!

[Judi Lynn]

89. Latin Bloc Condemns Hostile Acts Against Bolivian President

Latin Bloc Condemns Hostile Acts Against Bolivian President

LIMA, July 4 (BERNAMA-NNN-ANDINA) -- The Union of South American Nations (Unasur) has criticised European governments for barring Bolivian President Evo Morales' plane from their airspace.

Morales was flying back to Bolivia from Moscow when the plane was diverted to Vienna, Austria, over suspicions that fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden might be on board.

In a statement, the Unasur group expressed "its indignation and a profound rejection of the unfriendly and unjustifiable acts that put at risk the safety of the Bolivian head of state and his team."

The Unasur, whose rotating presidency is held by Peru, is also demanding more information about the event.

More:
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v7/wn/newsworld.php?id=960913